|
Post by Zorro on Jun 16, 2006 14:29:02 GMT -5
Jumbo, I was in the fellowship for 30 years and never heard a worker say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit was God from a platform. Most of my experience with these subjects was in private discussion with the workers. Over 25 years ago a worker explained to me that the F&Ws are the only people who DON'T believe Jesus was God. This was a distinguising mark. Why? Because we were the only people who understood the true work of the spirit, as done in the life of Jesus. Just as Jesus overcame his flesh and lived a perfect life in the strength of the spirit - we can, too. Now fast forward to 2005. I had two workers privately tell me the same thing, one of them an overseer. FWIW, that is my personal experience....I'm not saying it's yours
|
|
Power and Knowledge
Guest
|
Post by Power and Knowledge on Jun 16, 2006 14:32:08 GMT -5
An omniscient God who didn't know something...hmmm... An omniscient and omnipotent God who didn't know something and who needs the adoration of mortals to make His day... hmmmmm...
|
|
|
Post by happy on Jun 16, 2006 14:38:46 GMT -5
The teachings are inconsistent and that is not right.
Clay said, "major universal agreement is on:
a) church with no name b) meeting in the home c) workers traveling two by two"
I agree with that. Throw in salvation, trinity, ministry, rules....you'll get a mosiac of answers.
|
|
|
Post by Hope For All on Jun 16, 2006 14:54:08 GMT -5
Questionable teaching: 1. That Jesus was perfect only through power from God and that we too can attain to this perfection if we “try hard enough”. 2. That Jesus is 100% divine (yet was not God). This is the teaching that confuses many F&W. 3. That the Holy Spirit comes forth from God as a force or power but is not God. In 40 years of meetings, I never heard it like this. A force? what? The Holy Spirit is God. I nvere heard of Him as anything else. Try hard enough and attain perfection? I don't think so! We cannot do this, we are incapable. As I heard in meeting last week "He did for us what we CANNOT do for our selves". Dear Jumbo, Are you saying that the F&W believe in the orthodox definition of the Trinity? Please name me one senior well known worker who has publicly and openly declared that "Jesus is God", and/or that the "Holy Spirit is God". I know of none- and I have gone to meetings for over 40 years as well I can name some well know workers who have spoken openly and publicly that the phrase "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" is a false teaching and who have emphatically declared "Jesus IS NOT God". Love, HFA
|
|
|
Post by to Chad on Jun 16, 2006 14:58:55 GMT -5
You just don't get it. Jesus did not come to teach a way- He came to reveal the HE IS THE WAY.
It is not about following "His way"- it is about following Him, not His oattern, method, form- but Himself!
Karl aka bazillionaire worldly preacher who doesn't know what to do with his jet or yacht in a landlocked town of 500 with no airfield.
Learjet- not leer- that's what you do from the jet's windows...
|
|
|
Post by Jumbo on Jun 16, 2006 15:37:37 GMT -5
HFA said "I can name some well know workers who have spoken openly and publicly that the phrase "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" is a false teaching and who have emphatically declared "Jesus IS NOT God"."
Our experience szeems quite different.
Please give the names you mention.
|
|
|
Post by han on Jun 16, 2006 15:48:02 GMT -5
HFA said "I can name some well know workers who have spoken openly and publicly that the phrase "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" is a false teaching and who have emphatically declared "Jesus IS NOT God"." Our experience szeems quite different. Please give the names you mention. Here are some examples of quotes on the subject. We have been told over and over again that Jesus is not God the Son and the only God is God the Father. If you are professing then I would ask those in your area if Jesus Christ is God almighty just as God the Father is God almighty. DAN HILTON: The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985] REF #393
DAN HILTON: Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160
SYDNEY HOLT: The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence. [1980] REF #376
DALE BORS: It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211
JOHN PORTERFIELD: Jesus was "the express image" of God. Sometimes we hear this expression. There might be a little girl in the home, and she looks like her mother. We think of her as being "the express image" of her mother. Or a little boy--he looks like his father. We think of him as being "the express image" of his father. But we wouldn't make the mistake to think that little girl WAS her mother. No. And we wouldn't make the mistake that little boy WAS his father. No--they are two separate individuals. But Christ was "the express image" of God. He wasn't God, and He didn't claim to be. He was in this sense the same as you and I: the Scripture tells us that "Ye are gods". There's some thing about us that is that way. The fact that we live forever, whether it's in a saved eternity or a lost eternity...it will go on forever. But nevertheless, we recognize that God is the one that is the Father. He's our Father." [Funeral of Nelson Printz Bakersfield, CA 7/21/93] REF #342
WILLIS PROPP: God, Jesus and Spirit are one in that they are united but not one in single personality. [Devon MT 1977] REF #130
Jesus is united with God but is not God. I don't see that Jesus is God in the scripture. [Post Falls ID 1985] REF #197
Sydney Holt, CA 1980 "The Holy Spirit is not God."
Senior brother worker, Special meeting, Boston Massachusetts, April 21, 1985 "Jesus is more like us, therefore, we should pray to our Heavenly Father rather than to Jesus." Mark Huddle Walla Walla, WA 1982 "Jesus was both God and man in one body." Mark Huddle Vancouver, WA 1979 "Some people say Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. That is foolish. No one can be 200 per cent. He was 50% man and 50% God." Jenith Hamon Washington August 1984 "Jesus is not God."
|
|
|
Post by Jumbo on Jun 16, 2006 15:58:12 GMT -5
The only one of these I've ever heard of is Willis Propp, and the only place I've heard of him is on the internet.
|
|
|
Post by Lloyds imposter on Jun 16, 2006 15:58:50 GMT -5
there is abslolutely no truth in ANY teaching of the workers only the secret sect has any truth Lloyd's imposter again. Youre wasting your time.We know who you are now, and you ain't our Lloyd.
|
|
|
Post by Hope For All on Jun 16, 2006 16:27:34 GMT -5
The only one of these I've ever heard of is Willis Propp, and the only place I've heard of him is on the internet. Dear Jumbo, Where are you from? You cannot be from N America, as I am. I have heard all of these men speak in person and what is quoted here confirms all that I have heard spoken on the subject of the Trinity. Dan Hilton was a well known, well respected and often quoted worker from Western USA who was known for his relentless study of scripture. Sydney Holt was an overseer in either WA or OR in Western USA. In fact I heard him speak his last sermon at our convention a week or so before he died suddenly two years ago. Mark Huddle is an older brother worker in WA or OR. I think he may be an overseer now. Willis Propp has been an overseer for over 30 years and has travelled all over the world speaking at various conventions. The point is that all of these men are very well know in the Western USA/Canada and have/had a great amount of influence on people in this part of the world. Are you suggesting that their doctrine on the trinity is different from other parts of the world? I think not. No one yet has been able to quote one well known overseer from anywhere who has clearly and consistantly stated that Jesus is both LORD and GOD. No one has quoted one worker who has stated that the trinity is anything but false doctrine. I heard a story recently about a women who professed in the F&W meetings because "They do not believe the Trinity" and therefore had to be right. The list goes on and on. Jumbo, I think you have to admit that the evidence is overwhelming that the F&W fellowship (which BTW I still am a part of) does not believe in the orthodox version of the trinity. Love, HFA
|
|
|
Post by Brick on Jun 16, 2006 16:58:34 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that it is exactly as G. Lee puts it in this instance. I think it is more like condemning folks who are sincere, but on this issue, sincerely wrong. Take an infantryman in the Army or Marines--you know what they are trained to do, right? Kill people. So you ask one if they are a hired killer. Most would deny it although it is the literal truth. I think if Nathan was asked "Do they teach ______________________." without the condemning "false doctrine" clause, that might allow him to answer truthfully without such a moral conflict. Try it.
|
|
|
Post by bowhunter on Jun 16, 2006 17:47:55 GMT -5
Dear all, Jesus is clearly the Son of God. Jesus came to this earth as God in the flesh. He had every living thing we have & the power of God's Spirit living inside Him. God wanted to know what it was really like to live in the fleshly body, so spiritually planted a seed inside of Mary's womb, which was Jesus who was later born. God is the Father of all men & of Jesus Christ. Jesus sits on God's right hand in Heaven. God is the light & throne of Heaven. Scripture clearly shows this to us in Revelation & the gospel of John. The workers have given up all possessions to follow the way Jesus taught, the world's preachers teach that they are supposed to become rich & have million's of dollars to fund their leer jets, yachts, overseas trips, ministry, the church actually becomes poorer & their preacher becomes richer & richer, more wealthy than his members of his church. That is wrong! Yes, we build barns for convention that is no secret. Where would everyone stay or eat in? Do you want people to eat & sleep out in the open air? Risk heat stroke or heart attack from the extreme heat of the sun? Get real! We have necessities why not use them? We are not living in the 1800's you know. Answer this question? Why do churches build & fund huge church buildings that can hold several 1,000 people when their congregation is less than 100-200 members? Makes no sense to me. If you are following churches like that you are following false preachers & false prophets, who are ravishing wolves stealing from God & taking the money from their members. Your Friend, Chad Chad,your comments about 'other' preachers and churches are incorrect,in general. Yes there are 'money' churches who teach prosperity and uses the people to get wealthy.Most churches reach out to the local community and sponsor activties,etc that require space above what is needed for the Sunday service.They need more room because they are GROWING-(unlike the F/W group who is still around due to reproduction.) Yes, there are wolves out there in the 'worldly' churches-there are wolves in your group too. Wasn't there at some point in your groups history(Australia,perhaps) where workers were abusing money and power and people?No accounts of child abuse or innappropriate use of property or funds? No group is perfect-including the F/W church. What I see as false dangerous teaching includes the workers teaching that Jesus is just a man,a person is to live in doubt and fear,not having assurance of eternal life inspite of an imperfct meeting attendance record or failure to adhere to every whim of the workers. If we aren't in 1800's(dang!!) why do the workers insist that the women and girls dress like Laura Ingalls?Another ridiculous requirement that has no bearing on salvation. Ye shall know them by their fruit-open your eyes,Chad!!
|
|
|
Post by cookie monster on Jun 16, 2006 19:27:53 GMT -5
Rice Crispie cookies...mmmmm, good!
|
|
|
Post by sorry bowhunter on Jun 16, 2006 19:34:03 GMT -5
Got news for ya, bowhunter...there still are outsiders who profess. Sorry.
|
|
|
Post by de on Jun 16, 2006 19:34:54 GMT -5
Got news for ya, bowhunter...there still are outsiders who profess. Sorry. define the word 'profess'
|
|
|
Post by gag on Jun 16, 2006 19:41:41 GMT -5
Rice Crispie cookies...mmmmm, good! corn flake globs
|
|
|
Post by tellingthetruth on Jun 16, 2006 20:29:51 GMT -5
Two workers out of 2500! Why only two? That makes the Gospel of the other 2498 false. Speaking lies about Jesus makes them false. God doesn't endorse anyone who speaks lies about His Son. He has nothing to do with them.
God isn't the author of false teaching, the devil is. Paul tells us to flee from such.
|
|
|
Post by Rob O on Jun 16, 2006 20:41:53 GMT -5
HFA,
May I ask simply and without an ulterior agenda, why do you stay? If you freely state that the fellowship (in general) is not orthodox in its view of God, what would be a sufficient reason to remain a part of the group?
|
|
|
Post by bowhunter on Jun 16, 2006 21:54:22 GMT -5
Got news for ya, bowhunter...there still are outsiders who profess. Sorry. There may be a few here and there.I know that in this area there was only one true conversion in the last 10 years-the few others were children of the friends. Reproduction IS the main reason the group is not extinct-there is no denying the fact that there are few who 'convert',a few more(children) who 'profess' and funeral or 2 every couple months.Kinda balanced out-NO TRUE GROWTH! Natural selection is alive and well!!
|
|
|
Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 16, 2006 22:42:06 GMT -5
HFA, Here are the names of two senior workers that I know preached Jesus is God/LORD or the I AM that I AM. John Wegter spoke Jesus is God and LORD at Oregon Special meeting last year. Everett Swanson, a senior worker from Washington State spoke recently Jesus Christ the I AM that I AM (Yahweh/God) in the Old Testament. I have his sermon but haven't had the time to post on our website yet. Nathan, do you have permission from these two men to place their names on the internet and also to relate what they believe and preach?
|
|
|
Post by slow to see on Jun 17, 2006 0:59:14 GMT -5
quote Jumbo, I think you have to admit that the evidence is overwhelming that the F&W fellowship (which BTW I still am a part of) does not believe in the orthodox version of the trinity.
Love, HFA
HI, I agree with you, HFA, and appreciate your posts. Our overseer rightly "accused" me of stating in our Sunday morning meeting that JESUS is God, and this was one of the reasons he felt justified to remove the meeting from our home. We (my wife) felt convicted to speak about Jesus being God in our meeting, understanding that we could face rejection and persecution because of it. One worker told us that he actually agreed with us on doctrinal issues , which differed from the f&w beliefs, but he advised us to just "keep our jets cool", and remain silent. It was not too late at that point , he figured, for us to avoid excommunication if we recanted and "pretended" that this was the ONLY way , and the workers were the ONLY true servants of God etc. etc. etc. HOW can one be true to one's beliefs and convictions , remaining silent , when spiritual leaders are preaching false doctrine , and we are just going along pretending things are okay. I remember one friend being questioned by a worker about whether he believed this was the ONLY way (which he didn't) and he thought it was cool to answer in a way that the worker couldn't pin him down to know for sure what he believed. NOT cool, I thought, for myself. We have NOT regretted standing true to God in our convictions in these matters and we have recieved MANY MANY blessings , beyond any expectations, and feel the pain and sorrow of rejection by f&w church as WELL worth it, for the gain of freedom and joy in Christ . God is NO man's debtor , (a worker's saying) sure holds true for me. My wife, being raised in the f&w church , of course did NOT understand or believe JESUS as being God from her lifetime teaching, but she remembers the thrill and "light bulb moment" she calls it, when this truth became real to her. She also recalls one day , as she was lying on the couch and thinking and praying , another "light bulb moment", and the thought came to her " this ISN"T the only way", (2x2's). It opened up the Bible like never before, reading it without 2x2 "blinkers", and I am soooooooooooooooo thankful, that she was willing to take the "flak", she knew would come, when she accepted JESUS is the TRUTH, NOT some group or form or method or.......... Things did get pretty bad for a while, and she is almost ashamed to admit that she even prayed that the Lord would just return and spare us of all the turmoil and rejection etc. Seems like another world ago , though , now and I sometimes find it hard to relate to thinking like we did. Don't get me wrong, we also had VERY good times in the fellowship and still have great friends there, and appreciate them and love them dearly. Lots of good memories. All the best in your journey with HIM, Alvin & Diane Kroeker
|
|
|
Post by Jumbo on Jun 17, 2006 4:10:16 GMT -5
HFA I don't doubt that you heard these workers say what you report you heard them say personally (even though I first thought that what you posted looked like a cut and paste from elsewhere).
The fact that I've never heard of any of them doesn't detract from what you heard, just shows that North American (as you call it) teaching isn't worldwide. I'm a hemisphere away from you geographically. Its just my experience not to have heard such teaching. I'd be quite shocked to hear it.
You said "Jumbo, I think you have to admit that the evidence is overwhelming that the F&W fellowship (which BTW I still am a part of) does not believe in the orthodox version of the trinity. " I'd slightly amend your version to ".. overwhelming that the F&W fellowship in North America does not believe in the orthodox version..."
You go on teaching and believing your non trinitarian views in "North America" if you want. For me I'll take the bibles version, and what i think that means, and what I know that I share with those I know and worship with.
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Jun 17, 2006 9:40:44 GMT -5
Two workers out of 2500! Why only two? That makes the Gospel of the other 2498 false. Speaking lies about Jesus makes them false. God doesn't endorse anyone who speaks lies about His Son. He has nothing to do with them. God isn't the author of false teaching, the devil is. Paul tells us to flee from such. I know there are more workers that teach Jesus is God out there because I heard it myself... but two active Senior workers that spoke openly and recently are good enough for now. By the way, they are still in the work! Well in any case we are sure thankful for all the 2x2 books out there
|
|
|
Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 17, 2006 10:17:09 GMT -5
The fact that I've never heard of any of them doesn't detract from what you heard, just shows that North American (as you call it) teaching isn't worldwide. I'm a hemisphere away from you geographically. Its just my experience not to have heard such teaching. I'd be quite shocked to hear it. I wonder if Jumbo will not tell more specifically where s/he/they lives because someone else will post here saying something along the line of "I went to meetings for ____ years in the same area as Jumbo and I heard what HFA heard."
|
|
|
Post by Jumbo on Jun 17, 2006 14:04:22 GMT -5
GL: I'm located in Africa. I'm unsure who the other poster is that you refer to?
|
|
|
Post by The Fanatic Worker on Jun 17, 2006 16:57:01 GMT -5
Dear Brethern, Get a grip! Lloyd & others who disbelieve the worker's teachings. If you don't like the worker's teachings then why are everyone of still clinging on to these chatrooms, message boards, websites? Answer that question? You are seeking for something from the workers & I wonder what it is that keeps you drawn to these people? Maybe it is your obsession or something. The workers are your idols? If you were really finished with the friends & workers why would you waste your time in here posting messages to people who remain within the meetings? It makes no sense to me? The Fanatic Worker
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Jun 17, 2006 17:18:15 GMT -5
Dear Brethern, Get a grip! Lloyd & others who disbelieve the worker's teachings. If you don't like the worker's teachings then why are everyone of still clinging on to these chatrooms, message boards, websites? Answer that question? You are seeking for something from the workers & I wonder what it is that keeps you drawn to these people? Maybe it is your obsession or something. The workers are your idols? If you were really finished with the friends & workers why would you waste your time in here posting messages to people who remain within the meetings? It makes no sense to me? The Fanatic Worker It makes a lot of sense when i grew up a 2x2 nobody cared to tell me william Irvine was the founder
|
|
|
Post by selah on Jun 17, 2006 17:32:31 GMT -5
Dear Fanatic Worker, Why did Jesus and his disciples keep trying to reach the Jews and Gentiles? I am still here because I love the f&w. I want to share what I've discovered about Jesus Christ with those who don't know, and with those who do know. It would be great to receive acceptance as a Christian believer from the workers. That may play a part in it too. It really hurts to be rejected, especially by your own brethren. It just doesn't seem right. Is this an obsession? Was what Jesus did an obsession? No, I don't think so. Sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ is not a waste of time no matter where I am. Love compells us. Are the f&w going to come visit with us outside of the meetings? Will they listen to our hearts? How can we listen to theirs if we don't get together SOMEWHERE? We can't be heard in meeting. What we have to say is not accepted there, and sometimes we're not even allowed to share our hearts there at all. Would Jesus just walk away, and say "so long"? He gave his life to save you and me. He didn't walk away. Blessings, Linda
|
|