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Post by howitis on Oct 5, 2016 5:35:33 GMT -5
Just think in about 100 years from now, someone will delve into the archives and write about how the '2x2' church believed in a hollow earth and a Jesus from Venus and because there's little written to refute that argument and NathanB has written so much supporting it, it will be called 'fact' and become part of 'history'....oh how funny!!!!!
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Post by rational on Oct 5, 2016 9:36:37 GMT -5
Rejection by the UFO believers says it all. Heused to present a chunk of metal that he claimed didn't exust on earth. Of course, he would not let anyone test it because what could they find - it didn't exist on earth.
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Post by rational on Oct 5, 2016 9:46:23 GMT -5
But of course YOU know nathan, because you have heard it from the "horses mouth" so to speak ! rational has proved your story wrong, but you still don't get it ! And I have proven to Rational, that he is NOT always correct with his answers/finding either. I read what he has to say, and do more digging on my part to see whether what is saying correct or NOT but I found he has many short comings with his answers/finding. I don't mind the challenge, debate, discussion... It helps to keep me on my toes. No NathanB, you have yet to offer any proof. Repeating the same thing over and over is not proof. I presented the names in question directly from the Byrd family tree as well as other sources. You have yet to offer any source. Your referenced sites contain contradictory information that changes as more is discovered. If you have found what I have presented is not accurate let me know, post the references you have discovered that refute my source, and we can discuss it. Simply saying what I posted was wrong means nothing.
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Post by rational on Oct 5, 2016 18:45:39 GMT -5
No NathanB, you have yet to offer any proof. Repeating the same thing over and over is not proof. I presented the names in question directly from the Byrd family tree as well as other sources. You have yet to offer any source. Your referenced sites contain contradictory information that changes as more is discovered. If you have found what I have presented is not accurate let me know, post the references you have discovered that refute my source, and we can discuss it. Simply saying what I posted was wrong means nothing. I presented my side but you don't like that is OK by me. I read and study what you wrote, You make me dig deeper. Thanks.It is not that I don't like it, it is because it is fact free.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 5, 2016 19:56:45 GMT -5
Just think in about 100 years from now, someone will delve into the archives and write about how the '2x2' church believed in a hollow earth and a Jesus from Venus and because there's little written to refute that argument and NathanB has written so much supporting it, it will be called 'fact' and become part of 'history'....oh how funny!!!!! Good point howitis ! Maybe a thread needs started to say the F&W church does not believe in hollow earth and that Jesus lives on Venus.
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Post by howitis on Oct 5, 2016 20:15:46 GMT -5
I won't bother Roselyn T, but we can certainly see how one person with plenty of time on their hands and the will to write and record their beliefs can change the 'history' of a group saying its the truth. Those that have reports within their family history of meetings and workers, before W Irvine, could well be telling the truth, even if they can't be verified by workers lists etc.........just a thought!
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 6, 2016 0:36:16 GMT -5
I won't bother Roselyn T , but we can certainly see how one person with plenty of time on their hands and the will to write and record their beliefs can change the 'history' of a group saying its the truth. Those that have reports within their family history of meetings and workers, before W Irvine, could well be telling the truth, even if they can't be verified by workers lists etc.........just a thought! However, howitis, do you have or anyone else you know have or anyone posting here on TMB HAVE any "reports within their family history of meetings and workers, before W Irvine?"
I have not seen anything of that kind and do not have anything like that in my possession.
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Post by howitis on Oct 6, 2016 1:11:05 GMT -5
That's just the point isn't it dmmichgood, just like there are very few so called '2x2's' refuting Nathans claims, therefore in the future some could state that's what the '2x2's' believed!!!! Yet because of what is or is not written does not necessarily make it fact. Yes there are some out there who believe their family had connections with a church the same as the '2x2's', one poster mentioned this briefly recently, but many others prefer to stay away from forum's like this one. One particular family I know, the old grandfather who was born in 1860 something, claimed his parents were helped by such a church, he told his grandson repeatedly that if you find this church embrace it and bring it to me.......the grandson did finally find it, but long after the old grandfather had died.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 6, 2016 1:47:47 GMT -5
I'm sure there may have been people meeting in homes and discussing the bible in 1860, but I do not believe they were or had anything to do with the F&W. There is too much evidence to prove that the F&W church started in Ireland with William Irvine. So times I think people want to find supposed links because they don't want to accept William Irvine, like a lady I was speaking to recently who tried to tell me her grandparents professed in the early 1800's in America, but of course she couldn't tell me the name of the workers !
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Post by howitis on Oct 6, 2016 2:05:45 GMT -5
Perhaps you are right, but then again maybe the lady is right too, I don't think I could recall the names of people my family had dealings with in the 1860's either. The trouble is that many have relied on 'proof' given basically by one man or people influenced by him, yet because they have not uncovered so called 'proof' they say it doesn't exist. Much like Nathan's stories, I personally have no 'proof' he is incorrect, and he on the other hand presents reams of red, black and blue printing, supposedly supporting his view but that doesn't make it necessarily true or a fact.
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Post by Grant on Oct 6, 2016 3:38:27 GMT -5
Grandparents professing in the early 1800s. Even if we say 1860s the woman must be pretty old herself. If the grandmother professed around age 20 in 1860, had a child (the mother of the woman you were talking to) at 35 and her mother had her at 35 that would make the woman you were talking to born at the latest in the 1910 making her at least 116 years old at the least. I think she's romancing a bit about her grandmother professing in the early1800s. Impossible to be alive and to have had a grandparents professing then.
Howitis do you mean you don't know who was first in your family to profess?
As for Nathans history being facts. He has very little facts. He just jumps to conclusions as he goes. Cherie on the other hand produces facts
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Post by howitis on Oct 6, 2016 3:59:59 GMT -5
Grant you seem to have mine and Roselyn's accounts mixed up just a tad....see how easily things get twisted.You even manage to get my posting name wrong!! (Whether that's purposeful or not, it's then obviously not referring to my post, is it?) Nathan produces written text as does Cherie, nothing more, nothing less.....some people are willing to say it is fact,yet how often do we see stuff written then someone has to back track on those words, newspapers do it all the time.....so often the 23 year old male that died at the scene of an accident turns out to actually be 27 or 19!!
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Post by Grant on Oct 6, 2016 4:54:11 GMT -5
I haven't got yours and Roselyn's post mixed up. I was referring to what she posted in the first part.
I put your name on the part of yours i was referring to. Sorry i wrote your name wrong. It was an innocent mistake. Do you always think the worst of people.
I haven't seen any research of the history done by Nathan. Most of his stuff was taken from Cherie's site and hes jumped to some conclusions of his own. She still adding new stuff as it comes to light. Nathan's just got a few letters of his own. The rest comes off the Internet and books the same as you and i can read.
Cherie gets info sent to her from all over the world and she's travelled to places and searched a lot of it out for herself. Nathans produced basically nothing of his own.
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Post by Grant on Oct 6, 2016 13:13:16 GMT -5
Cherie only focuses on the last 110 years ago because your church only started then. She bases it on facts.
You on the other hand are trying to put some spin on it and make up some lineage which doesn't exist.
The Faith Mission was nothing to do with the Waldensians and you have no proof. You just make that up, take stuff from the internet and pick and choose what you want about a different group of people who are not connected.
The Faith Mission was a mainstream missionary organisation. William Irvine joined the Faith Mission from accepting Jesus through a mainstream church not the Waldensians who were nothing to do with mainstream churches at that time and you throw-in the Waldensians who were nothing to do with the 2x2 lineage.
The Faith Mission goes down the mainstream church route.
Cherie goes back beyond 110 years to Irvines birth and conversion. She proves it goes down the main stream route. She does not then start writing the history of mainstream Christianity. She was showing the workers lineage.
You try and divert the truth and put the Faith mission, a mainstream missionary organisation through the Waldensian route of which it did not come from.
All you have done is look at different homeless ministries that have existed but are nothing to do with each other. The correct lineage would-be to take the workers church through the mainstream route and take the Waldensians out of it. Cherie's info proves this lineage. You have made up the Waldensians route.
The workers church is not the apostolic ministry. It is a church started by men the same as any other church. No connection with the apostolic church apart from going through the lineage of mainstream Christianity itself.
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Post by howitis on Oct 6, 2016 15:48:59 GMT -5
Grant, I was not speaking of Nathans posts about church history, I am speaking about the pages and pages of 'hollow earth, Jesus from Venus' stuff, that he writes and was just musing that won't it be funny 100 years hence that someone finds it and decides that's what the '2x2' church believed. As for Cherie yes she's done a wonderful job collecting for the past 110 years and it is quite possible that one day someone will find connections previous to that and more 'dots' will join up. Happens all the time with history.
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Post by Grant on Oct 6, 2016 15:59:10 GMT -5
I was not referring to your post howitis. I was responding to Nathans post above mine. That was clear. I agree with you about Nathans hollow earth stuff especially he puts it on his 2x2 site. Not sure if he has because I haven't looked at it in ages.
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Post by howitis on Oct 6, 2016 16:12:58 GMT -5
All good Grant, have a great day/night wherever you are, take care
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Oct 6, 2016 16:28:26 GMT -5
Grant, I was not speaking of Nathans posts about church history, I am speaking about the pages and pages of 'hollow earth, Jesus from Venus' stuff, that he writes and was just musing that won't it be funny 100 years hence that someone finds it and decides that's what the '2x2' church believed. As for Cherie yes she's done a wonderful job collecting for the past 110 years and it is quite possible that one day someone will find connections previous to that and more 'dots' will join up. Happens all the time with history. There were non-Catholic groups all throughout the last 2000 years of history that the Catholics considered to be heretics. Most of what is written about them and their beliefs comes from Catholics. What did they really believe and do?
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 6, 2016 18:27:39 GMT -5
isn't it interesting, that when you try & prove you belief about aliens, hollow earth & Jesus living on Venus you need more than the 1800 years history nathan ? So when it suits you the bible is not enough you have to add to it !
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 6, 2016 20:09:35 GMT -5
Cherie only focuses on the last 110 years ago because your church only started then. She bases it on facts. You on the other hand are trying to put some spin on it and make up some lineage which doesn't exist. The Faith Mission was nothing to do with the Waldensians and you have no proof. You just make that up, take stuff from the internet and pick and choose what you want about a different group of people who are not connected. The Faith Mission was a mainstream missionary organisation. William Irvine joined the Faith Mission from accepting Jesus through a mainstream church not the Waldensians who were nothing to do with mainstream churches at that time and you throw-in the Waldensians who were nothing to do with the 2x2 lineage. The Faith Mission goes down the mainstream church route. Cherie goes back beyond 110 years to Irvines birth and conversion. She proves it goes down the main stream route. She does not then start writing the history of mainstream Christianity. She was showing the workers lineage. You try and divert the truth and put the Faith mission, a mainstream missionary organisation through the Waldensian route of which it did not come from. All you have done is look at different homeless ministries that have existed but are nothing to do with each other. The correct lineage would-be to take the workers church through the mainstream route and take the Waldensians out of it. Cherie's info proves this lineage. You have made up the Waldensians route. The workers church is not the apostolic ministry. It is a church started by men the same as any other church. No connection with the apostolic church apart from going through the lineage of mainstream Christianity itself. Enuf.... How little you know about your former 2x2 church history. The Faith Mission and William Irvine was model or pattern after Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry. By the way, Cherie K doesn't KNOW too much of the early workers church apostolic and New Testament church teaching either. She doesn't KNOW which kind of Church William Irvine and the early workers started!Dr. Jaenen wrote Page 493..... The Faith Mission John George Govan (1861-1927) organize the Faith Mission, a kind of Holiness Presbyterian ministry, on October 1886 to revive Christian living in mainstream denominations through sending out Unordained preachers in pairs, on the apostles model. These "Pilgrims" or "Workers" were sometimes provided with portable wooden halls that could be set up in communities where other venues were not available to them. A basic tenet was total dependence on God for guidance in their evangelistic crusades and for their material needs. The motto was "Have faith in God." The first gospel meetings were held at Moffat in Scotland and Whitehaven in England. These missions usually terminated with gospel invitation as the preachers moved on to another community. In 1887 the first women went out as "Pilgrims" preachers. Believing that, under the dispensation of the Holy Spirit, both sons and daughters were to prophesy as God pours out of His Spirit on his "servants and handmaidens", we accept both men and women workers as evangelists. Two pilgrims/preachers are usually sent to a place, either the brothers or sisters, as is requested or seems best. Visiting people in their homes through the day we consider an important part of the work, and meetings are conducted usually every evenings. Interestingly, in this book there is a picture of all the Faith Mission pilgrims as of 1892, standing in four rows like a worker picture, and at their feet is a banner that says "holiness to the Lord". The Holiness Movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are not sanctified at that point; you are not yet holy. Some denominations within the Holiness Movement speak of a second rebirth when you are sanctified, but I believe that with the friends you spend your life working toward being sanctified. This idea was quite common in Methodist circles of the late 19th century. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as a center of the Holiness Movement. Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but who was actually an Anglican, was the first to spread the Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later his book titled "Christian Perfection". "Christian Perfection" is the same idea as Holiness, that you are "born again" once but then become perfected in Christ over time. I have read Wesley's book, but his distinction between perfected Christians who don't sin, but do make mistakes, versus unperfected Christians who aren't quite there yet, is quite a fine line if you ask me. But the essential idea of spiritual progress throughout life is a compelling one, all the same. So, this is from wiki - It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers. Wesley was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality rooted in pietism. At one point in the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast off the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experience led Wesley to believe that the Moravians possessed an inner strength which he lacked.[8] The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influenced Wesley's theology of Methodism.[9] And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravian church, I'll quote wiki, "is reputed to have received the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensian Church, but the historicity of this is disputed." I personally doubt that, but most ideas in Christianity, like that of Holiness, have very deep roots. Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Paul the apostle-> Vaudois/Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's journal and b) learned more on the socio-historical background that informed the decision making of Irvine and the other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movements, as well as the Holiness doctrine. Before that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Now I see Irvine, Long and the other first workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement that was going on in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th century, one which culminated in schism because the main denominations would not accept the Holiness doctrine. The f&w were not the only ones going through this transformation. Here is a list of other Holiness denominations in the UK and America that began during or around that time. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make Irvine the first leader/ overseer/ head worker of the movement. Founder? I've just never liked that word in connection with the f&w movement. Nathan's selection of posts in the early part of this thread shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, IMO. Now, for Nathan's benefit, Holiness began with John Wesley's work and preaching on Christian Perfection, and Wesley's ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area by the Moravian church which is a movement that was influenced by the Waldensians/ Vaudois. ~~ MOST of the early 2x2 workers and the friends CAME out of the Protestant churches!!Wm Irvine's Letter to: Mr. Thorp Seattle, Wash. (An X-Cleric) October 16, 1934My Dear Thorp: Thanks for yours. Can you imagine anyone getting free from Babylonian traditions without a struggle. It has been 41 years struggle to be where and as I am, so I am glad it has begun for you, and I can make it easier for you. I was brought up a Presbyterian, converted on my 30th birthday when the battle began—whether I would believe in Jesus, and live by what He revealed, said and did, or follow the traditions of my fathers, and the many traditional “say and do not methods I found ready to swallow me up. Then for some years I thought to fish in the herring barrel called churches, to find out how impossible it was to do any work that would honor Him by doing God’s work in His way and manner of life. For 14 years I worked outside all religious connection and gathered many out and around Him, and my attempt to do as the Acts and Apostles taught, only to find—as did Paul, that were false Apostles and Prophets would try to get power to lead the so-called churches I had formed spiritually, under their power. In 1914 (WI resigned from the Faith Mission in 12/1900) I found this case to be His method, though I did not understand it. Testimony of Ida West (Daughter of John & Sara West) Rossahilly, Ballinamallard, N. Ireland August, 1954 An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents, John and Sara West, were brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was "Come out of Babylon" which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly. But of course you know nathan !!! The Waldensian's have even denied the link you try to say existed nathan !
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Post by Grant on Oct 7, 2016 4:06:55 GMT -5
Nathan the Faith Mission and 2x2s are not the model of the apostlic ministry. It is ridiculous to suggest such a thing. Just because they don't own a house. As you have said other people have also done the same and they have been in existence way longer than the workers and are nothing to do with the workers.
As i said the 2x2s came down mainline Christianity. Thousands of people go to Keswick every year. Because William Irvine and Cooney went once or twice does not mean the workers came from the holiness movement. Other churches have though. Keswick also is a mainline Christian convention. The Faith Mission is a mainline Christian missionary organisation who any Christian can join regardless of denomination.
Again the 2x2s are nothing to do with the previous wandering ministries. Irvine was a protestant, joined in with a protestant missionary organisation, broke away and formed his own church. Not the apostolic ministry and not from the Waldensians but mainline Christianity. You need to stop trying to twist and turn and makeup what you want. You have not proved at all that the 2x2s have come from the Waldensians. The Faith Mission was started up by Govan. Not a break away from anything but it was started up from nothing.
You always say that the Waldensians are the true church from Jesus when their history says they were started around 1100 or so. Again you are wrong only taking what you want and ignoring the facts.
Modern day Waldensians are not ex Waldensians but the Waldensians have joined in with others Christian churches. They merged with others not left their church.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 7, 2016 4:18:40 GMT -5
Nathan the Faith Mission and 2x2s are not the model of the apostlic ministry. It is ridiculous to suggest such a thing. Just because they don't own a house. As you have said other people have also done the same and they have been in existence way longer than the workers. As i said the 2x2s came down mainline Christianity. Thousands of people go to Keswick every year. Because William Irvine and Cooney went once or twice does not mean the workers came from the holimess movement. Keswick again is a mainline Christian convention. The Faith Mission is a mainline Christian missionary organisation who any Christian can join regardless of denomination. Again the 2x2s are nothing to do with the previous wandering ministries. Irvine was a protestant, joined in with a protestant missionary organisation, broke away and formed his own church. Not the apostolic ministry and not from the Waldensians but mainline Christianity. You need to stop trying to twist and turn and makeup what you want. You have not proved at all that they 2x2s have come from the Waldensians. The Faith Mission was started up by Govan. Not a break away from anything but it was started up from nothing. But it sounds better to try & say they come for the Waldensians Grant ! And of course there has to be a justification for why there are no workers lists prior to 1897 or there abouts ! Have to try & get that line back to the "shores of Galilee" Grant !!!
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Post by Grant on Oct 7, 2016 4:29:36 GMT -5
All churches go back to the shores of Galilee as Christianity started with Jesus. I did change bits of my previous post Roselyn so my post on your post has changed a bit.
Nathan is hung up with saying the 2x2s go down the Waldensian line but has not given any proof. All the proof points to the mainstream Christianity line. The Waldensians are a mainline church today anyway.
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Post by rational on Oct 7, 2016 8:38:23 GMT -5
But of course you know nathan !!! The Waldensian's have even denied the link you try to say existed nathan ! The Waldensians church today! are NOT the REAL/Original Vaudois/Waldenses! but ex-Waldenses, their teachings do NOT match with their forefathers belief and teachings. These ex-Waldenses left their Main group church in 1554 and joined the Reformation and became one of many thousands Protestant churches.Sounds like you are heading down the trail to logical fallacy of "No True Scotsman"! NathanB, generally, when the data does not support the premise the solution is to modify the premise to accommodate the data not simply reject the data to protect the premise.
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Post by jondough on Oct 7, 2016 10:00:23 GMT -5
That's just the point isn't it dmmichgood, just like there are very few so called '2x2's' refuting Nathans claims, therefore in the future some could state that's what the '2x2's' believed!!!! Yet because of what is or is not written does not necessarily make it fact. Yes there are some out there who believe their family had connections with a church the same as the '2x2's', one poster mentioned this briefly recently, but many others prefer to stay away from forum's like this one. One particular family I know, the old grandfather who was born in 1860 something, claimed his parents were helped by such a church, he told his grandson repeatedly that if you find this church embrace it and bring it to me.......the grandson did finally find it, but long after the old grandfather had died. There have been plenty that have refuted Nathan. Numerous. He just outlast us with all his cut & Paste. Its not hard to look back and find many stating that he is the only 2X2 that believes what he believes. This means all his alien stuff, along with his Trinity thinking. After a while, you just burn out and give up. You find yourself in the exact same conversations that you already have had.
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Post by rational on Oct 7, 2016 11:23:09 GMT -5
There have been plenty that have refuted Nathan. Numerous. He just outlast us with all his cut & Paste. Its not hard to look back and find many stating that he is the only 2X2 that believes what he believes. This means all his alien stuff, along with his Trinity thinking. After a while, you just burn out and give up. You find yourself in the exact same conversations that you already have had. It is like trying to find the end of a Möbius strip... Or get something into or out of a Klein bottle. No matter where you go there you are!
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 7, 2016 12:59:57 GMT -5
That's just the point isn't it dmmichgood , just like there are very few so called '2x2's' refuting Nathans claims, therefore in the future some could state that's what the '2x2's' believed!!!! Yet because of what is or is not written does not necessarily make it fact. Yes there are some out there who believe their family had connections with a church the same as the '2x2's', one poster mentioned this briefly recently, but many others prefer to stay away from forum's like this one. One particular family I know, the old grandfather who was born in 1860 something, claimed his parents were helped by such a church, he told his grandson repeatedly that if you find this church embrace it and bring it to me.......the grandson did finally find it, but long after the old grandfather had died. I don't see how that they might believe Nathan's ridiculous stuff in some far flung future because he can't give any proof of what he posts. However, -we have a lot of proof, -thanks to Cherie as well as Parker's work, -about when the *TRUTH* really started.
The incident of an elderly man born in 1860 could have parents who were in their teens (people married early in that time) when they heard of Irvine.
Another possibility was that there was a number of "Awakenings" around the years 1727, 1792, 1830, 1857 and 1882 in both British Isles and America and it could have been any one of those the grandfather knew about.
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Post by howitis on Oct 7, 2016 14:56:07 GMT -5
Yes dmmichgood,we know some history because of Parker and Cherie, who largely wrote it from Irvine's writings or people influenced by him. I cannot discount other's family history because of lack of paper evidence and feel that if these people feel strongly enough that their faith is connected some way or other previous to 110 years ago, who am I to argue. As I said one day the 'dots' will join up. Just because a newspaper reports that an accident killed a 23 year old, does not necessarily make it true and I'm certainly not going to argue with the deceased's parents, who claim their child was actually 29 even though they're not holding the birth certificate. As for Nathan, yes many that do not believe his theories burn out and all that's required then is a couple of 'sympathisers' and there you have it 'new history'
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