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Post by Admin on Dec 19, 2015 21:08:03 GMT -5
This thread is an opportunity for trustees of F&W financial accounts, or any senior workers/overseers, to publicly demonstrate the accountability that we believe befits followers of Christ who have responsibility to administer the financial matters of the church. The idea came from this post by emy: AS long as we are speculating, could it be that when LW was moved out of CO the friends in charge of the trust account chose not to have that responsibility so the funds were moved to another account?? Perhaps emy is right. If so, it would be nice if those tasked with the responsibility of managing this particular trust account could openly demonstrate the propriety of how this fund is being managed. This thread can remain on top here for the year, and let's see if anyone with financial responsibilities is prepared to be open and accountable with how the Friends money is used. I promise that all who do demonstrate accountability here will be treated with total respect for your courage and honesty. admin |
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Post by Admin on Dec 19, 2015 21:24:43 GMT -5
There is another thread currently active, on this topic: professing.proboards.com/thread/22327/money-matters-challenge-overseers-workers?page=1The purpose of this one here, however, is not to challenge but to provide the opportunity for openness. Building trust in money matters depends on such. It is human nature to treat with suspicion matters that are handled in secrecy. If church money matters are being handled honestly, let's hear about it. It is no big deal, if it is all above board and can withstand scrutiny in the light. The big deal comes when things are done in secrecy, for whatever reasons. admin |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 21:31:37 GMT -5
This thread is an opportunity for trustees of F&W financial accounts, or any senior workers/overseers, to publicly demonstrate the accountability that we believe befits followers of Christ who have responsibility to administer the financial matters of the church. The idea came from this post by emy: AS long as we are speculating, could it be that when LW was moved out of CO the friends in charge of the trust account chose not to have that responsibility so the funds were moved to another account?? Perhaps emy is right. If so, it would be nice if those tasked with the responsibility of managing this particular trust account could openly demonstrate the propriety of how this fund is being managed. This thread can remain on top here for the year, and let's see if anyone with financial responsibilities is prepared to be open and accountable with how the Friends money is used. I promise that all who do demonstrate accountability here will be treated with total respect for your courage and honesty. admin i don't see why it necessary, i for one has trust that those people are God guided and i have faith in God to believe He controls His people i believe this thread is for those who wish to know the business of others and that of the fellowship all one needs to do is follow Christ to do His wishes, then will see from Him there is no need to poke into what is in God's hands i wonder if all the disciples knew how much was in the bag Judas carried, some how i doubt it seeing that Jesus didn't seem to place importance on money as this thread seems to want to do |
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 19, 2015 21:43:59 GMT -5
i don't see why it necessary, i for one has trust that those people are God guided and i have faith in God to believe He controls His people i believe this thread is for those who wish to know the business of others and that of the fellowship all one needs to do is follow Christ to do His wishes, then will see from Him there is no need to poke into what is in God's hands i wonder if all the disciples knew how much was in the bag Judas carried, some how i doubt it seeing that Jesus didn't seem to place importance on money as this thread seems to want to do Trusting anyone for anything is still nothing more than trusting another human being. No one can know what someone else is thinking and planning, and it has already happened that trusting people have discovered that the money they've given to the workers went for personal enrichment rather than necessities of the ministry. According to the law, that is fraud -- people go to prison for that. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 22:03:13 GMT -5
i'm with virgo it sounds like busybody work...
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Post by Admin on Dec 19, 2015 22:30:32 GMT -5
Blind faith is all very well, so long as those you place your faith in are totally faithful.
This thread is about building trust with the stakeholders. Members of the church who donate money, members thinking of donating money or of leaving an inheritance. What is the money ear-marked for? How is it spent for the spread of the gospel? How is Christ's work on earth being enriched by that donation?
Frankly I have little idea of the answers to those questions at this time.
I know what I would like to think are the answers, but am I only dreaming?
Another use of this thread could be to gather together all the information that is often posted throughout TMB on money matters. What are the trust accounts and who are the trustees throughout the fellowship? If you were wanting to write them into your will, how to go about it to ensure the money goes to what you intend?
Transparency and accountability in financial matters are values held highly in the economies of the world. Should we separate the church from such financial responsibility, on what grounds? As well as moral (Christian) responsibilities for followers of Christ, there are also laws of the land that all trustees & workers are subject to (Romans 13, for any who doubt).
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Post by Admin on Dec 19, 2015 23:22:17 GMT -5
i don't see why it necessary, i for one has trust that those people are God guided and i have faith in God to believe He controls His people i believe this thread is for those who wish to know the business of others and that of the fellowship all one needs to do is follow Christ to do His wishes, then will see from Him there is no need to poke into what is in God's hands i wonder if all the disciples knew how much was in the bag Judas carried, some how i doubt it seeing that Jesus didn't seem to place importance on money as this thread seems to want to do and Wally, I respect your views. I think you just have to accept that not all of us have had such perfect experiences with the trustworthiness and truthfulness of certain senior workers. Unfortunately, one bad egg can ruin the credibility of many others. Which is why transparency and accountability is important in restoring that credibility. When secrecy is demanded, restoring credibility is nigh impossible for those of us who have been seriously lied to. Do you think Jesus allowed Judas, who he knew was a thief (John 12:6), to remain CFO of the Jesus Band Inc. to give us the impression it's OK for thieving types to manage the church finances? Perhaps Judas is an example for all who have financial responsibility over funds donated to the church, that if they are less than thoroughly scrupulous, they are acting of the 'evil one' and look where it lead to for Judas. The disciples knew Judas was a thief and helping himself to the money (John 12:6), it wasn't hidden from them. And John recorded it in his gospel as proof that they knew. I don't think this is about wanting to poke our noses into how much money there is or isn't in the coffers. But rather, about a wish for accountability to be satisfied that the money donated, however much, is getting to where it is intended (for the gospel's sake). If anything, the example of Judas warns us that where money is involved, Judas's will gravitate. Because "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (NIKJV) admin |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 23:59:49 GMT -5
i don't see why it necessary, i for one has trust that those people are God guided and i have faith in God to believe He controls His people i believe this thread is for those who wish to know the business of others and that of the fellowship all one needs to do is follow Christ to do His wishes, then will see from Him there is no need to poke into what is in God's hands i wonder if all the disciples knew how much was in the bag Judas carried, some how i doubt it seeing that Jesus didn't seem to place importance on money as this thread seems to want to do Trusting anyone for anything is still nothing more than trusting another human being. No one can know what someone else is thinking and planning, and it has already happened that trusting people have discovered that the money they've given to the workers went for personal enrichment rather than necessities of the ministry. According to the law, that is fraud -- people go to prison for that. but if you notice i portraid my trust is in God |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 0:03:07 GMT -5
i don't see why it necessary, i for one has trust that those people are God guided and i have faith in God to believe He controls His people i believe this thread is for those who wish to know the business of others and that of the fellowship all one needs to do is follow Christ to do His wishes, then will see from Him there is no need to poke into what is in God's hands i wonder if all the disciples knew how much was in the bag Judas carried, some how i doubt it seeing that Jesus didn't seem to place importance on money as this thread seems to want to do and Wally, I respect your views. I think you just have to accept that not all of us have had such perfect experiences with the trustworthiness and truthfulness of certain senior workers. Unfortunately, one bad egg can ruin the credibility of many others. Which is why transparency and accountability is important in restoring that credibility. When secrecy is demanded, restoring credibility is nigh impossible for those of us who have been seriously lied to. Do you think Jesus allowed Judas, who he knew was a thief (John 12:6), to remain CFO of the Jesus Band Inc. to give us the impression it's OK for thieving types to manage the church finances? Perhaps Judas is an example for all who have financial responsibility over funds donated to the church, that if they are less than thoroughly scrupulous, they are acting of the 'evil one' and look where it lead to for Judas. The disciples knew Judas was a thief and helping himself to the money (John 12:6), it wasn't hidden from them. And John recorded it in his gospel as proof that they knew. I don't think this is about wanting to poke our noses into how much money there is or isn't in the coffers. But rather, about a wish for accountability to be satisfied that the money donated, however much, is getting to where it is intended (for the gospel's sake). If anything, the example of Judas warns us that where money is involved, Judas's will gravitate. Because "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (NIKJV) admin i still think it is treading on Gods toes and His power to deal as He wishes, and imposing the power of man in His place |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 0:10:51 GMT -5
Blind faith is all very well, so long as those you place your faith in are totally faithful. This thread is about building trust with the stakeholders. Members of the church who donate money, members thinking of donating money or of leaving an inheritance. What is the money ear-marked for? How is it spent for the spread of the gospel? How is Christ's work on earth being enriched by that donation? Frankly I have little idea of the answers to those questions at this time. I know what I would like to think are the answers, but am I only dreaming? Another use of this thread could be to gather together all the information that is often posted throughout TMB on money matters. What are the trust accounts and who are the trustees throughout the fellowship? If you were wanting to write them into your will, how to go about it to ensure the money goes to what you intend? Transparency and accountability in financial matters are values held highly in the economies of the world. Should we separate the church from such financial responsibility, on what grounds? As well as moral (Christian) responsibilities for followers of Christ, there are also laws of the land that all trustees & workers are subject to (Romans 13, for any who doubt). admin and yet we as humans put blind faith in the policeman, medic, fireman etc that they are going to perform their duties in accordance to their profession but cannot do the same for God's servants? what would happen if that was done to the police force, medical fraternity or lets say the fire department? would you expect the same as is being asked from the workers? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2015 1:55:52 GMT -5
Trusting anyone for anything is still nothing more than trusting another human being. No one can know what someone else is thinking and planning, and it has already happened that trusting people have discovered that the money they've given to the workers went for personal enrichment rather than necessities of the ministry. According to the law, that is fraud -- people go to prison for that. but if you notice i portraid my trust is in God We aren't really talking about trusting God -- I think this discussion is about trusting workers with money dedicated for a purpose. God doesn't really get the money people give the workers -- the workers accept it, not like an ATM but consciously, and they are responsible for doing with it what it was given to them for. The point is, what you give the workers is NOT a salary -- if it were it would be theirs to do with as they please. The theory is that people give workers don't work for personal gain. Money given to workers has been diverted to such petty things as drinking parties in motel rooms. What say? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2015 2:09:06 GMT -5
Blind faith is all very well, so long as those you place your faith in are totally faithful. This thread is about building trust with the stakeholders. Members of the church who donate money, members thinking of donating money or of leaving an inheritance. What is the money ear-marked for? How is it spent for the spread of the gospel? How is Christ's work on earth being enriched by that donation? Frankly I have little idea of the answers to those questions at this time. I know what I would like to think are the answers, but am I only dreaming? Another use of this thread could be to gather together all the information that is often posted throughout TMB on money matters. What are the trust accounts and who are the trustees throughout the fellowship? If you were wanting to write them into your will, how to go about it to ensure the money goes to what you intend? Transparency and accountability in financial matters are values held highly in the economies of the world. Should we separate the church from such financial responsibility, on what grounds? As well as moral (Christian) responsibilities for followers of Christ, there are also laws of the land that all trustees & workers are subject to (Romans 13, for any who doubt). admin and yet we as humans put blind faith in the policeman, medic, fireman etc that they are going to perform their duties in accordance to their profession but cannot do the same for God's servants? what would happen if that was done to the police force, medical fraternity or lets say the fire department? would you expect the same as is being asked from the workers? It is done to the police, etc. When it's not done it breeds corruption. The policeman and the fireman and the doctor are paid for what they do, and then that money belongs to them. But the fire department and police department and everyone else who accepts your tax money is responsible for every penny they spend of your money. No one gets to party or amass retirement funds until they get it becomes wages. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 3:15:47 GMT -5
but if you notice i portraid my trust is in God We aren't really talking about trusting God -- I think this discussion is about trusting workers with money dedicated for a purpose. God doesn't really get the money people give the workers -- the workers accept it, not like an ATM but consciously, and they are responsible for doing with it what it was given to them for. The point is, what you give the workers is NOT a salary -- if it were it would be theirs to do with as they please. The theory is that people give workers don't work for personal gain. Money given to workers has been diverted to such petty things as drinking parties in motel rooms. What say? well i am seeing they are His servants. so what if what we give them is not a salary? once we give we hold no claim on it or where it goes we trust they will use it wisely and as far drinking parties i only have your word for that who do think i should have trust in? you or them? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 3:21:49 GMT -5
and yet we as humans put blind faith in the policeman, medic, fireman etc that they are going to perform their duties in accordance to their profession but cannot do the same for God's servants? what would happen if that was done to the police force, medical fraternity or lets say the fire department? would you expect the same as is being asked from the workers? It is done to the police, etc. When it's not done it breeds corruption. The policeman and the fireman and the doctor are paid for what they do, and then that money belongs to them. But the fire department and police department and everyone else who accepts your tax money is responsible for every penny they spend of your money. No one gets to party or amass retirement funds until they get it becomes wages. have you written on a message board and asked the police dept and asked them to furnish where the donations given to them have gone? i suggest you would get a big fat mind your own business and maybe for your accusation you might like to furnish proof of parties and retirement funds |
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2015 3:41:16 GMT -5
We aren't really talking about trusting God -- I think this discussion is about trusting workers with money dedicated for a purpose. God doesn't really get the money people give the workers -- the workers accept it, not like an ATM but consciously, and they are responsible for doing with it what it was given to them for. The point is, what you give the workers is NOT a salary -- if it were it would be theirs to do with as they please. The theory is that people give workers don't work for personal gain. Money given to workers has been diverted to such petty things as drinking parties in motel rooms. What say? well i am seeing they are His servants. so what if what we give them is not a salary? once we give we hold no claim on it or where it goes we trust they will use it wisely and as far drinking parties i only have your word for that who do think i should have trust in? you or them? You do have the option of telling a worker when you give him/her money that it is a gift to him/her -- and to spend it on themselves. That's a gift, and you have no right to it once it's given. No, you don't have to trust me. And no, you don't have to trust the workers either. There are quite a few I wouldn't trust -- with my wife, my children, my car, my house. But, like you, I wouldn't believe they'd leave beer cans in the back floor of the car -- until it happened. I don't understand why a worker just can tell people straight up what happens to money. I suspect most workers don't even know how much money is where and what is being done with it. It's a totalitarian communistic community -- no wonder people are curious, considering the enormous amount of money that has to be processed. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2015 3:46:34 GMT -5
It is done to the police, etc. When it's not done it breeds corruption. The policeman and the fireman and the doctor are paid for what they do, and then that money belongs to them. But the fire department and police department and everyone else who accepts your tax money is responsible for every penny they spend of your money. No one gets to party or amass retirement funds until they get it becomes wages. have you written on a message board and asked the police dept and asked them to furnish where the donations given to them have gone? i suggest you would get a big fat mind your own business and maybe for your accusation you might like to furnish proof of parties and retirement funds I don't have to ask the police department. Their budget is public knowledge and the city hall or the state government approves it and examines where the money went. I know. I was secretary to the state senate finance committee, and we knew how many how many rolls of toilet paper they used, and if they didn't use all of what they asked for last year they won't get that many again this year. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 20, 2015 4:36:59 GMT -5
Blind faith is all very well, so long as those you place your faith in are totally faithful. This thread is about building trust with the stakeholders. Members of the church who donate money, members thinking of donating money or of leaving an inheritance. What is the money ear-marked for? How is it spent for the spread of the gospel? How is Christ's work on earth being enriched by that donation? Frankly I have little idea of the answers to those questions at this time. I know what I would like to think are the answers, but am I only dreaming? Another use of this thread could be to gather together all the information that is often posted throughout TMB on money matters. What are the trust accounts and who are the trustees throughout the fellowship? If you were wanting to write them into your will, how to go about it to ensure the money goes to what you intend? Transparency and accountability in financial matters are values held highly in the economies of the world. Should we separate the church from such financial responsibility, on what grounds? As well as moral (Christian) responsibilities for followers of Christ, there are also laws of the land that all trustees & workers are subject to (Romans 13, for any who doubt). admin and yet we as humans put blind faith in the policeman, medic, fireman etc that they are going to perform their duties in accordance to their profession but cannot do the same for God's servants? what would happen if that was done to the police force, medical fraternity or lets say the fire department? would you expect the same as is being asked from the workers? There is in fact checks and balances for all three so you are quite wrong to say that we put blind faith in them. The Police in NZ have the IPCA, (Independant Police Complaints Authority, The medical profession has a similar authority that investigates its members and even the Fire Brigade has procedure in place to handle complaints. I think you would definetely know about the first two so I wonder at your reasons for making such a statement. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 20, 2015 6:37:09 GMT -5
Thanks, Admin. Money Matters. I'd like to make a public response to those who make the following statements: - It is none of your business if you are outside the group.
- If you don’t contribute you don’t have a right to know.
My response: I’m not interested in the specifics. I don’t have a right to know. I think their own members should know. I’m interested in the monetary principles espoused by the Two-by-Twos, and the accusations they make against other churches on this topic. I'm a member of another church, so I care what accusations are made about other churches. I’m interested in the perpetuated myths versus the reality. When I challenge the Two-by-Two Ministry on their handling of money,
I do so because of the pervasive myths and persuasive mystique surrounding
this ministry and its handling of money which needs to be examined.
Myth: The Two-by-Two ministry is God’s only true plan and pattern, and the friends and workers are the only true followers of this pattern. They follow the pattern and everything else miraculously falls into place. They take no collection, yet all their needs are met. The “worldly” churches, on the other hand, take collections and constantly seek money. Their paid ministers are hirelings. Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability.
My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. It also operates against Biblical principles for tithing.
Two-by-Two Money Philosophy:
- We aren’t concerned with such worldly matters. God meets all our needs. - We don’t take collections or ask for money - It all just happens. - The workers sacrifice their lives in an unpaid, homeless ministry as part of God’s plan. - Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the money, and are hirelings - Worldly churches are just in it for the money, and are always asking for it. Two-by-Two Reality:
- We take your money, but always secretly - We take far more than we need, and stash it in bank accounts - We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us - We always know exactly how much you give - If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. Two-by-Two positives:
- You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don't the workers will know) - Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Two-by-Two negatives:
- The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. - There is no accountability. None. But there seems to be an inordinate amount of world travel going on by many workers. - Workers accuse all other churches (who do provide accountability) of being money oriented, while pretending money doesn't exist in Two-by-Two land. Out of sight, out of mind. - The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth that the homeless workers go forth "by faith".
Biblical Principles:
- The worker is worthy of his keep (the worker is worthy of wages) - Don’t muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain (those who work deserve payment) - Children of God should be regularly giving/tithing to the church (each should set aside an amount in keeping with his income each week, for the church collection) - Nobody should know how much you give. It is between you and God. (Note that the workers always know how much you give). How does the Two-by-Two ministry fare against Biblical principles?
Finally, let me just clarify: Money is not evil. It is the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That's just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Perhaps they could also explain how their ministry still equates with the New Testament ministry in this regard. As a member of another church whose money practices would be denounced and made fun of by the workers, I think these are reasonable questions. |
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Post by stargazer on Dec 20, 2015 9:58:19 GMT -5
I suppose if yachts appeared, I'd get concerned, but otherwise I see money is generally used for conventions and travel, support of workers in harsh places - that's certainly not a secret. Good grief, can you imagine trying to implement financial controls (expense reports, financial systems of control, boards, audits). I doubt there's widespread abuse of money, but that's based on my personal observations. i.e. polite refusal to accept money from me because of uncertainty of where I stood with regard to the fellowship; the modest lifestyle; ... I think there have probably been individual instances of abuse - but really widespread abuse? I don't think so. Here in the US with 40 or so overseers for the states and 3 or 4 deacons entrusted in each state (probably) you suddenly have nearly 200 people colluding. I think abuse to the extent it exists is isolated and eventually self corrects with the exchange of overseers and staff.
So, if I get very stoked about this issue, I might remember who was the most concerned about the cost of alabaster box and the bag?
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with openness and accountability...and there should be nothing to be afraid of be being open and accountable. I frankly doubt, though, there's anybody that could give a comprehensive account, so it'd have to be on a local level and by the time it's done can you imagine the expenditure of energy and the million or so threads each account would generate here for what would ultimately end up being pretty immaterial amounts.
I'm ok with how it works for now. But I'm not unobservant of indididual attitudes - the casual shopping by one individual versus the car pooling to save gas by another. Those little things are the most telling to me.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 20, 2015 16:58:48 GMT -5
Yes, NathanB, it is indeed interesting that most information about the operations of the group (registration, trusts etc) come to light only through legal proceedings. Please note that I have not accused the workers of misappropriating funds. I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group. I simply suggest: - they provide better forms of accountability (all organisations should have good practices in place); - they dispense with the myth of claiming to operate so much differently to other churches (claiming not to be an organisation is, quite simply, ridiculous); - they forgo the hypocrisy of claiming they don't take money and other churches do; - freewill offerings by members be anonymous, as per Biblical principles. |
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Post by stargazer on Dec 20, 2015 17:23:50 GMT -5
Yes, NathanB, it is indeed interesting that most information about the operations of the group (registration, trusts etc) come to light only through legal proceedings. Please note that I have not accused the workers of misappropriating funds. I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group. I simply suggest: - they provide better forms of accountability (all organisations should have good practices in place); - they dispense with the myth of claiming to operate so much differently to other churches (claiming not to be an organisation is, quite simply, ridiculous); - they forgo the hypocrisy of claiming they don't take money and other churches do; - freewill offerings by members be anonymous, as per Biblical principles. Then, since, "I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group", I submit a call to refrain from making somewhat erroneous claims has more merit than demanding accountability. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 20, 2015 17:49:17 GMT -5
Yes, NathanB , it is indeed interesting that most information about the operations of the group (registration, trusts etc) come to light only through legal proceedings. Please note that I have not accused the workers of misappropriating funds. I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group. I simply suggest: - they provide better forms of accountability (all organisations should have good practices in place); - they dispense with the myth of claiming to operate so much differently to other churches (claiming not to be an organisation is, quite simply, ridiculous); - they forgo the hypocrisy of claiming they don't take money and other churches do; - freewill offerings by members be anonymous, as per Biblical principles. Then, since, "I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group", I submit a call to refrain from making somewhat erroneous claims has more merit than demanding accountability. The somewhat erroneous claims being? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2015 17:50:41 GMT -5
Yes, NathanB, it is indeed interesting that most information about the operations of the group (registration, trusts etc) come to light only through legal proceedings. Please note that I have not accused the workers of misappropriating funds. I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group. I simply suggest: - they provide better forms of accountability (all organisations should have good practices in place); - they dispense with the myth of claiming to operate so much differently to other churches (claiming not to be an organisation is, quite simply, ridiculous); - they forgo the hypocrisy of claiming they don't take money and other churches do; - freewill offerings by members be anonymous, as per Biblical principles. Then, since, "I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group", I submit a call to refrain from making somewhat erroneous claims has more merit than demanding accountability. You can be fine with whatever you believe. But you are naïve about accountability. As long as there is no accountability you will never see past what anyone wants you to see -- no matter what they're doing that you don't see. Accountability is the prevention. Legal action is the cure. See how the workers clamored to clean up their act when CSA became a legal matter!!!!!!!! I think there is a connection between the idea of "not reporting to the authorities" and "sheltering from prosecution". I'm not fantasizing -- the overseer where I live told me personally that they had protected workers from prosecution -- while they were recommending the slammer for some of the friends. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 20, 2015 18:11:32 GMT -5
Yes, NathanB , it is indeed interesting that most information about the operations of the group (registration, trusts etc) come to light only through legal proceedings. Please note that I have not accused the workers of misappropriating funds. I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group. I simply suggest: - they provide better forms of accountability (all organisations should have good practices in place); - they dispense with the myth of claiming to operate so much differently to other churches (claiming not to be an organisation is, quite simply, ridiculous); - they forgo the hypocrisy of claiming they don't take money and other churches do; - freewill offerings by members be anonymous, as per Biblical principles. Then, since, "I accept that most behave in good faith when managing the funds of the group", I submit a call to refrain from making somewhat erroneous claims has more merit than demanding accountability. Sorry, stargazer, I think I misunderstood this last post. Yes, it probably has more merit, and is my main concern. However, the accountability issue remains. Though probably more for members than for me, as an outsider. I agitate for reform because those inside generally can't. There'd be consequences for any insiders asking these same questions. Most reform within the Two-by-Two has only come about become of external pressures. History has shown they are not good at self-regulating, and only tell the truth when forced to. While many (most?) would claim to be happy with the status quo, as BobWilliston points out, "As long as there is no accountability you will never see past what anyone wants you to see -- no matter what they're doing that you don't see." One example is legal representation. I suspect the friends might be quite shocked to see what funds have been spent on legal fees - including fees to defend CSA offenders. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 18:23:07 GMT -5
Good grief, can you imagine trying to implement financial controls (expense reports, financial systems of control, boards, audits). My neighbour maintains financial records for her church. She is 88. She uses two columns of a spreadsheet to record free will offerings, one for the name of the giver and one for the amount given, and two further columns to record expenditure on things such as payments for flowers, church organist etc. At the end of the year each person who has given a gift gets a personal emailed summary of what they have given during the year plus a detailed breakdown of total income (without individual names shown) and expenditure for the year in respect of the church. I would suggest that it is not beyond the capacity of each worker pair to maintain something similar. It is not a complex spreadsheet nor is it a difficult task. There isn't even the inconvenience of having to record things such as payments for flowers or organists. The two key requirements are merely (a) access to an iPad/laptop and (b) half an hour a week maximum. You don't see these two requirements as major impediments? Matt10 |
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Post by blandie on Dec 20, 2015 20:45:14 GMT -5
Yeah it doesn't take much but adding up the totals. Because 2x2-ism isn't registered as a religious charity in many/most places even keeping track of individual names in those areas wouldn't be necessary since people cannot legitimately deduct their contributions. I assume that overseers are already keeping tabs on the assets - if not thats a horror story waiting to be told. In the areas where they are registered as religious organizations they are already required to keep the records and do annual reporting and even in areas where they aren't registered overseers have used accountants. For accountability to the church it would be very simple - income from contributions plus income from the trust investments minus expenditures. A yearly report could be done on one sheet for most areas.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 20:56:10 GMT -5
have you written on a message board and asked the police dept and asked them to furnish where the donations given to them have gone? i suggest you would get a big fat mind your own business and maybe for your accusation you might like to furnish proof of parties and retirement fundsI don't have to ask the police department. Their budget is public knowledge and the city hall or the state government approves it and examines where the money went. I know. I was secretary to the state senate finance committee, and we knew how many how many rolls of toilet paper they used, and if they didn't use all of what they asked for last year they won't get that many again this year. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2015 21:22:26 GMT -5
I don't have to ask the police department. Their budget is public knowledge and the city hall or the state government approves it and examines where the money went. I know. I was secretary to the state senate finance committee, and we knew how many how many rolls of toilet paper they used, and if they didn't use all of what they asked for last year they won't get that many again this year. and maybe for your accusation you might like to furnish proof of parties and retirement funds No, I wouldn't care to furnish proof to "unbelievers". By the way, I'm not campaigning for accountability. I'm just telling y'all that the way the workers manage money is not at all exempt from legal scrutiny. If you don't live by the law, you have no protection from the law when time comes to defend oneself. I've published a scenario where that could happen. And it would be a civil case, where proof beyond a reasonable doubt is NOT required for a conviction. |
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AS long as we are speculating, could it be that when LW was moved out of CO the friends in charge of the trust account chose not to have that responsibility so the funds were moved to another account??
