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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 6:56:34 GMT -5
It is often said that one bad Apple can spoil the whole barrel of apples and that is a possibility, however, it would be unfair to tarnish everyone in the same club with the same brush; there must be a certain degree of trust and confidence in some folks or we will for ever be asking the biblical question : Can anything good come out of Nazareth. I do however acknowledge a need to put forth some concerted effort to separate the wheat from the Tares, weed out the bad apples , a sort of spiritual cleansing, as time is of essence; scripture promises that it will be done eventually, no escaping it.
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Post by jondough on Dec 24, 2015 12:01:57 GMT -5
Absolutely not, I hope I didn't insinuate that I did. It was strictly a hypothetical. the trouble with writing things which are hypothetical some are going to take it as being truth, made through suggestion trouble with believing things made through suggestion is that it will cause some to judge which in turn would be false judgment if anyone in the fellowship believed that which was hypothetical passed from one to another through gossip it would/could become a stumbling block to them unknowingly the risk is to great and this is why i say it must be left in God's hand and we should not interfere The risk is even greater not to use common sense therefore doing something not so very smart, and think God will take care of you. |
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Post by faune on Dec 24, 2015 12:17:54 GMT -5
the trouble with writing things which are hypothetical some are going to take it as being truth, made through suggestion trouble with believing things made through suggestion is that it will cause some to judge which in turn would be false judgment if anyone in the fellowship believed that which was hypothetical passed from one to another through gossip it would/could become a stumbling block to them unknowingly the risk is to great and this is why i say it must be left in God's hand and we should not interfere The risk is even greater not to use common sense therefore doing something not so very smart, and think God will take care of you. ~ I definitely agree! In fact, since God is no respecter of persons or is non-exclusive (Romans 2:11), we can be sure He means what he says about not being mocked (Galatians 6:7-8).
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Post by fixit on Dec 24, 2015 15:17:58 GMT -5
It is often said that one bad Apple can spoil the whole barrel of apples and that is a possibility, however, it would be unfair to tarnish everyone in the same club with the same brush; there must be a certain degree of trust and confidence in some folks or we will for ever be asking the biblical question : Can anything good come out of Nazareth. I do however acknowledge a need to put forth some concerted effort to separate the wheat from the Tares, weed out the bad apples , a sort of spiritual cleansing, as time is of essence; scripture promises that it will be done eventually, no escaping it. It helps when we recognise there's good and bad in every human being. No one is all good, and no one is all bad. Appreciate and encourage the good, and be wary of the bad. The good is not disqualified by the bad, and the bad is not justified by the good. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 17:44:46 GMT -5
Is there a rule against friends handing over money to friends? If the giver notes the money is being spent unethically Eg. in defense of criminals (pedophiles), then they should desist from further contributions. If the giver observes the receiver is over-indulging, then again, they should re-consider why they are giving. I notice that a number of people have suggested on a number of threads that workers' funds have been used in defence of pedophiles. i'm interested if this is an allegation/assumption or is it a statement of fact? Is anyone able to clarify? If it has been acknowledged by overseers that the funds have been used in this way then it would be fact. Another possibility is that some dedicated 2x2'er saints may offer to obtain legal support for the accused and to meet the payment of legal costs. In this case any such allegation/assumption is incorrect and would not be a statement of fact. |
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Post by menatwork on Dec 24, 2015 20:35:13 GMT -5
Is there a rule against friends handing over money to friends? If the giver notes the money is being spent unethically Eg. in defense of criminals (pedophiles), then they should desist from further contributions. If the giver observes the receiver is over-indulging, then again, they should re-consider why they are giving. I notice that a number of people have suggested on a number of threads that workers' funds have been used in defence of pedophiles. i'm interested if this is an allegation/assumption or is it a statement of fact? Is anyone able to clarify? If it has been acknowledged by overseers that the funds have been used in this way then it would be fact. Another possibility is that some dedicated 2x2'er saints may offer to obtain legal support for the accused and to meet the payment of legal costs. In this case any such allegation/assumption is incorrect and would not be a statement of fact. This is the whole point of this thread morriss. It is very difficult to know with any certainty what the money that has been accumulated is being spent on. There is no accountability and transparency with how money is being spent. It could be being spent on anything including funding defence lawyers for alleged pedophiles. You can't assume that all overseers are squeaky clean when it comes to financial matters. I cannot understand why it is so difficult to let church members know what their money is being spent on. In my earlier post I suggested an alternative way in which large sums of money can be distributed for church purposes in a more transparent way. What do you think of this suggestion? |
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Post by fixit on Dec 24, 2015 21:44:02 GMT -5
I hope we agree that the first workers went out with more faith than most. But even coming more up to date , consider the last 10 workers who have left the work. I know several who have come out in late middle age- no savings, homes, pension. i don't think they begrudge what's happened, but please consider their situation compared with other ministers. They went in the work knowing the possibility existed they'd come out with nothing - there is faith in that.That aspect shouldn't be overlooked This is an important point, and well expressed. Unlike the first workers, today's workers can be pretty certain their temporal needs will be taken care of while they are in the work. However, if they part company with the worker staff they typically have very little money, an outdated career, no home, no spouse, no children. |
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Post by blandie on Dec 24, 2015 21:52:11 GMT -5
I notice that a number of people have suggested on a number of threads that workers' funds have been used in defence of pedophiles. i'm interested if this is an allegation/assumption or is it a statement of fact? Is anyone able to clarify? If it has been acknowledged by overseers that the funds have been used in this way then it would be fact. Another possibility is that some dedicated 2x2'er saints may offer to obtain legal support for the accused and to meet the payment of legal costs. In this case any such allegation/assumption is incorrect and would not be a statement of fact. Anyone betting against Jerome F. having used the funds to hire that series of high-priced attorneys would certainly lose. In all those other cases I think the defense funds came out of the donations too - where else does anyone imagine those tens of thousands of dollars came from - maybe the mouth of a fish? Has any of them actually relied on court-appointed defenders instead of hiring their own? Thats a possibility but I doubt many have. Some might have supporters that have offered extra to support an expensive defense but its not as if many don't also have their own accounts and donated money saved - I know some individual workers have. About the situation of those leaving the work being without a cushion - some do indeed gather a cushion so thats not to do with going out on faith and some ministers in other churches have just as little cushion should they decide to change careers or get kicked out. Not much difference that I can see. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 23:12:41 GMT -5
It is often said that one bad Apple can spoil the whole barrel of apples and that is a possibility, however, it would be unfair to tarnish everyone in the same club with the same brush; there must be a certain degree of trust and confidence in some folks or we will for ever be asking the biblical question : Can anything good come out of Nazareth. I do however acknowledge a need to put forth some concerted effort to separate the wheat from the Tares, weed out the bad apples , a sort of spiritual cleansing, as time is of essence; scripture promises that it will be done eventually, no escaping it. trouble is brother that it is actually God's job to separate the wheat from the Tares our job as we have been told is to try and restore a brother |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 23:14:27 GMT -5
the trouble with writing things which are hypothetical some are going to take it as being truth, made through suggestion trouble with believing things made through suggestion is that it will cause some to judge which in turn would be false judgment if anyone in the fellowship believed that which was hypothetical passed from one to another through gossip it would/could become a stumbling block to them unknowingly the risk is to great and this is why i say it must be left in God's hand and we should not interfere The risk is even greater not to use common sense therefore doing something not so very smart, and think God will take care of you. so you think it not very smart to think God can take care of you? not much need for faith then i'd say |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2015 1:58:34 GMT -5
It is often said that one bad Apple can spoil the whole barrel of apples and that is a possibility, however, it would be unfair to tarnish everyone in the same club with the same brush; there must be a certain degree of trust and confidence in some folks or we will for ever be asking the biblical question : Can anything good come out of Nazareth. I do however acknowledge a need to put forth some concerted effort to separate the wheat from the Tares, weed out the bad apples , a sort of spiritual cleansing, as time is of essence; scripture promises that it will be done eventually, no escaping it. trouble is brother that it is actually God's job to separate the wheat from the Tares our job as we have been told is to try and restore a brother Yep, Right there in James 5:19 :  if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 25, 2015 7:28:13 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman your pressure for the 2x2 group to adopt a formalized accounting system would shift the focus from one in which finances are the elephant in the room into yet another religious business which makes money out of god(s). Maybe your name will one day be carved in the plaques dedicated to those who advanced the 2x2 group into yet another successful and profitable religious organisation  What is the standard for honesty within religious organisations when they make truth claims despite being unable to present evidence? Faith-based organisations, where gullibility and trust are predominant traits of adherents, are particularly vulnerable to those seeking personal financial gain and these people will use any tactics to divert funds, whether accounting practices are insitu or not. "Yes, but all church attendance is free. Nobody is forced to give at other churches either. It is always left to individual conviction". Your church may not broadcast the need for donations from the platform, however there are other techniques applied, including the use of the donation link in church websites. It is naive to deny the coercion that is applied to trusting people when exposed to the devious and manipulative strategies such as those exemplified hereThe content of the above link provides an insight into how easy it is to make money from people who are susceptible to mind-controlling techniques: "Your attitude "How can I repay the Lord for all his goodness to me?" (Psalm 116:12)
"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Cor. 9:7)
Saying "Thanks" by giving Think of giving as an expression of gratitude to God for all that he has done and continues to do in Jesus I think you're arguing against the Bible here rather against me, Joanna. I believe the Bible teaches that Christians should support those in their ministry, I'm not going to argue against that. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 25, 2015 8:13:39 GMT -5
Hi Elizabeth
I hope you don't mind me questioning aspects of this . The idea of having transparency is one I am comfortable with, but I would really like to query some of your beliefs expressed here. I haven't taken all you post, but just the bits I want to comment on. No problem.Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Actually, people give them money during private visits and via deceased estates A minor point of dispute, but yes. Church members also "give", but are given transparent opportunities to do so.Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Is it strong evidence or is it a case of you strongly suspect? Strong evidence. Several court cases have resulted in overseers having to give evidence/affidavits, and they have testified of their access to funds and being "very well off" with trust funds, bank accounts.Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability.
My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. Really? I hope we agree that the first workers went out with more faith than most. But even coming more up to date , consider the last 10 workers who have left the work. I know several who have come out in late middle age- no savings, homes, pension. i don't think they begrudge what's happened, but please consider their situation compared with other ministers. They went in the work knowing the possibility existed they'd come out with nothing - there is faith in that.That aspect shouldn't be overlooked You are correct. It is a travesty - not a virtue - of the system that workers who leave the Two-by-Twos are cut loose with nothing. Even in the earliest days, some workers were literally starving, and their health was ruined by "going out in faith". Some such workers were later devastated to learn that while they genuinely went out "in faith", as told to by their superiors, the overseers stored up funds in bank accounts, of which they had no knowledge, and to which they had no access when in genuine need, even to the point of serious medical problems, and starvation. Either there should be a level playing field (all live by the same rules), or the younger workers are given much clearer guidelines on the truth - that funds are available when needed, and how to access such funds.
It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. Two-by-Two Money Philosophy:
- - Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the mone y I don't hear that, and to say it's a general truth of the 2x2x money philosophy is wrong in my view , and are hirelings I heard this preached many times in my youth (80s-90s, NSW Australia)Two-by-Two Reality:
- We take your money 'People give us money', but always secretly One gives, the other takes, the exchange still takes place. - We take far more than we need 'We may be given more or less than we need' , and stash it in bank accounts Presumably this is aimed at one worker only (the overseer) and the other workers are not being attacked on this? Many workers have less than they need at any point in time and get sent money ad-hocly from other workers (as Nathan has described) I believe generally all take what they are given, and hand over excess at convention at the end of the year to their overseer. The money gets passed up the chain, so to speak. But much does come directly from wills/estates.- We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us - We always know exactly how much you give I think this is trash. Each can speak for themselves but i don't think anyone knows what people give. The workers in the field know the offerings they are getting from people but they aren't logging it. if you had gone in the work would you have gone in thinking I'm going to log what people give? No, neither would I. Estates on death would be known. Large money can be given at convention time but these are commonly given incognito. Special Meeting time extra money may be given , money may be given to workers who aren't from the field - don't think they'll be reporting in to someone what was paid. If money is given to the 'saint' who is organising the Special Meeting Hall , this is not communicated on, Money sent to overseas workers - not communicated on etc. Think if you were in the work - what would you really know of people's giving?? Very little, i suggest. It is a known culture that those who have much and give much in the Two-by-Twos get away with much more than those who don't. I'm talking about rule keeping. The workers will take lower status friends (read poorer) to task over small infringements, but dare not approach more well off members over much more serious infractions. I have seen and heard many, many personal accounts of this type of occurrence. The workers do know on which side their bread is buttered. Bottom line - someone knows what you give. This is NOT known to anywhere near the same extent in other churches that I know of (I can only speak of Australia, I'm less certain of tax deductibility issues in the US).
- If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. This depends very much on how the question is asked and what they consider the motive behind the question. I think the quoted sermon speaks for itself in this regard. The speaker forewarned anyone who was even thinking of asking the question.Two-by-Two positives:
- You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don't the workers will know) The last point in brackets isn't correct as the workers won't know the full picture (as described above). Also, consider if you were in the work and if you felt someone wasn't giving, would you not consider your own thinking was awry. So would I. I don't think we are the only ones who think that way. Someone will know. Every year, someone will know. The worker in your field changes most year. Next year someone else will know, etc. etc. After a number of years, most workers in your state will know how much you habitually give. It's a logical outcome. This is an area which can, and should, be fixed. What disagreement could the workers possibly have with instituting a completely anonymous system of giving? That's a more interesting question. - Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Most people contribute Probably. I hope so.Two-by-Two negatives:
- The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, This in incorrect (see above) Still disagree, see above! because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. This is incorrect (see above) It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. This is incorrect . Again, think if you were in the work. Would what people give, affect your view of them? Surely not. I wish it were as you say. - The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth that the homeless workers go forth "by faith".This is where transparency would be good to understand how vast 'vast' is ! Could be small or big. But your description here is well short of reality. If there are your vast sums of money then probably one (maybe 2 or 3 at most?) worker (the overseer) knows. I'm surprised that you include the other workers in this - as said above they may leave the work with just a couple of suitcases at most (even at death). Could be at any time of life. Their day to day needs have been met - no more.
I think there is a pyramid system whereby money is stockpiled at the top, and those at the bottom receive almost nothing. For the average worker, there is nothing to support them in their later life, or if they leave. Again, I wish it were not so.
Thanks for some of these questions. I don't wish to pick on the workers, per say. As I've said previously, I don't accuse them of misusing funds, and I don't disagree with them being financially supported. I wish they were supported more. I think the current system is inequitable both to workers and friends.
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Post by jondough on Dec 25, 2015 13:58:38 GMT -5
The risk is even greater not to use common sense therefore doing something not so very smart, and think God will take care of you. so you think it not very smart to think God can take care of you? not much need for faith then i'd say No matter how much faith you may have, if you jump off an 18 story bldg - God is not going to save you no matter how hard you may flap your arms. No need for faith? |
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Post by joanna on Dec 25, 2015 19:41:07 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman If the bible directs christians to donate to “their ministry”, then meeting folk are just doing what you, and others who believe the bible is the word of god do – they are giving money to their ministry. What process (and where is this recorded), does the bible recommend for the transfer of money between christians and their church / ministry?
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Post by faune on Dec 25, 2015 21:28:44 GMT -5
It is often said that one bad Apple can spoil the whole barrel of apples and that is a possibility, however, it would be unfair to tarnish everyone in the same club with the same brush; there must be a certain degree of trust and confidence in some folks or we will for ever be asking the biblical question : Can anything good come out of Nazareth. I do however acknowledge a need to put forth some concerted effort to separate the wheat from the Tares, weed out the bad apples , a sort of spiritual cleansing, as time is of essence; scripture promises that it will be done eventually, no escaping it. It helps when we recognise there's good and bad in every human being. No one is all good, and no one is all bad. Appreciate and encourage the good, and be wary of the bad. The good is not disqualified by the bad, and the bad is not justified by the good. ~ I really like your attitude and your way with words! Such wisdom in what you shared above! Thanks! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2015 22:33:55 GMT -5
so you think it not very smart to think God can take care of you? not much need for faith then i'd say No matter how much faith you may have, if you jump off an 18 story bldg - God is not going to save you no matter how hard you may flap your arms. No need for faith? is that sorta like crossing the red sea? |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 25, 2015 22:44:43 GMT -5
You really believe that happened the way it is told in the bible?
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Post by jondough on Dec 26, 2015 3:24:45 GMT -5
No matter how much faith you may have, if you jump off an 18 story bldg - God is not going to save you no matter how hard you may flap your arms. No need for faith? is that sorta like crossing the red sea? Not sure - you go ahead and try - let me know how it goes |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 26, 2015 22:41:27 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman If the bible directs christians to donate to “their ministry”, then meeting folk are just doing what you, and others who believe the bible is the word of god do – they are giving money to their ministry. What process (and where is this recorded), does the bible recommend for the transfer of money between christians and their church / ministry? Joanna, I've never disputed that meeting folk should give money to their ministry. My main point has always been that they make a big show of not taking collections, and ridicule other churches for taking collections, yet in essence they are supported exactly the same way other churches are supported - by the giving of offerings. They also claim to go out "by faith" as Jesus sent out his disciples originally, yet keep funds secretly stockpiled (which wouldn't have been the case with Jesus' ministry). They claim one thing and do another. They deny being an organisation, but have somewhat centralised funds across their ministry, and operate internationally. It is the secrecy and denial that is the problem, not that they need money to operate. My secondary point has been the process and the accountability, which, though arguably not mandatory, is highly desirous, and Christians are called to do what is right in the eyes of all men, and be willing to be accountable. The Bible doesn't stipulate exact process. It gives example (1 Corinthians 16:2) and general principles (Matt 6:2-4), to name just a few references. You saw many other principles in giving from the Bible in the link you provided. To sum it up: Nearly all churches operate from offerings given freely - this is not unique to the Two-by-Twos, even though they claim superiority in this regard. The workers know who gives and how much, but provide no accountability. Other churches enable their members to give anonymously, but provide completely accountability. Which is better? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2015 0:05:49 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman If the bible directs christians to donate to “their ministry”, then meeting folk are just doing what you, and others who believe the bible is the word of god do – they are giving money to their ministry. What process (and where is this recorded), does the bible recommend for the transfer of money between christians and their church / ministry? The workers know who gives and how much, but provide no accountability. Other churches enable their members to give anonymously, but provide completely accountability. Which is better? I give to the workers anonymously(through the mail) although one time they were able to figure out that it was me how they performed that feat is beyond me... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2015 2:02:12 GMT -5
The workers know who gives and how much, but provide no accountability. Other churches enable their members to give anonymously, but provide completely accountability. Which is better? I give to the workers anonymously(through the mail) although one time they were able to figure out that it was me how they performed that feat is beyond me... they had your finger prints checked mate  |
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Post by jondough on Dec 27, 2015 11:41:49 GMT -5
The workers know who gives and how much, but provide no accountability. Other churches enable their members to give anonymously, but provide completely accountability. Which is better? I give to the workers anonymously(through the mail) although one time they were able to figure out that it was me how they performed that feat is beyond me... Post stamp |
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Post by blandie on Dec 27, 2015 14:01:10 GMT -5
In the usa a return address is required by law for sending domestic or overseas tho I can't imagine not putting a return address for an envelope containing only cash and no letter to prevent a smudged or mis-addressed envelope from being consigned to the dead letter office. Its not anonymous if it contains a bank check or a letter and workers have said that the $ usually came with a letter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2015 16:08:09 GMT -5
I think the address law is required for packages over 16 oz...I do it all the time the no address thingy I only send cash...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2015 16:49:47 GMT -5
It is simply how they chose to do things, desiring no accountability nor transparency. Case closed, what I or anyone else may think is not worth their consideration. Posting here may just well be an exercise in futility. What is, is. Just that simple.
As to those that give, if they do it as unto their Lord, whatever use they may make of it is not between the giver and receiver, rather between receiver and their God. They surely don't see any need for answering to their own, and thus certainly not to me nor anyone else outside their group except maybe national treasury and judicial departments for misuse of funds entrusted to their care.
To whom concerned: safely back to Baton Rouge, La. Dot (Katie's mum) is now back to her place of abode, we are headed to a motel near the Baton Rouge Airport for tonight and tomorrow night.
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Post by blandie on Dec 27, 2015 18:46:08 GMT -5
I think the address law is required for packages over 16 oz...I do it all the time the no address thingy I only send cash... Can only say that I've had a couple of envelopes lighter than that refused at the post office counter because no return address. You sure your cash filled envelopes are even getting thru? And as workers have said the money usually comes with a letter and gifts by letter are often acknowledged with a letter in return and I know letters from friends also go out with cash or checks so it doesn't have to be always or maybe even usually anonymous - no different than in any other church. To whom concerned: safely back to Baton Rouge, La. Dot (Katie's mum) is now back to her place of abode, we are headed to a motel near the Baton Rouge Airport for tonight and tomorrow night. Theres been some nasty weather in those parts - stay safe. |
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Post by joanna on Dec 27, 2015 20:31:54 GMT -5
That the bible does not include a process for donating money allows christian churches to apply whatever methods they choose to collect donations. The claims that the workers “ridicule” other churches for taking money are subjective and dependent on the manner in which individuals have been impacted by the 2x2 group. Contributions to this forum (and similar forums) indicate that those who have side-stepped into another religion tend to be less-tolerant of the 2x2 group. It would be reasonable to expect the person’s new belief to have negated any personal vendetta or animosity. So it is appropriate to self-reflect and identify the motivations for publically campaigning against any perceived 2x2 issues, and in this instance, church donations. As previously inferred, cooking the books is unfortunately a regular practice by businesses and it is disingenuous to implicitly trust other church leaders and mistrust the 2x2’s. The following example of the techniques used by another church to obtain money could assist those of you to prioritize your concerns regarding religion and money. Whilst the workers did speak of giving up all and not receiving a wage, I do not recall any ‘ridiculing’ of other churches, neither do I remember any workers requesting money, either from the platform or any other venue. A relative who was a worker occasionally (anonymously) referred to some families who were financially struggling and that the preachers ‘helped them’. I am unsure what this ‘help’ entailed, but knowing the kind-hearted nature of my relative, I would have trusted them to be sincere in their intentions. Maybe there is a Robin Hood type enterprise ‘at work with the workers’; it would be commendable if so. Back to the following examples of the techniques used by a church to obtain $$. I have posted this donation page in full as believe it provides an opportunity to consider the contrasting techniques used to gain funds. Whilst I oppose the giving of money to any and all churches, the following shameless pressuring of a cohort of individuals who are already ‘under the spell of religious indoctrination’is disgusting and cringe-worthy. Please consider this excerpt: “When should I start giving regularly? Pretty much as soon as you start earning, including pocket money earned while you are young. It's a terrific habit to get into. Also the earlier you get into that habit, the easier it is to continue in it, and the easier it is to give cheerfully. (It also enables more of God's work to be done.) Anyone who receives a regular income should definitely be giving regularly.”I do not support any religion, my motivation (likely a delusion in itself  ) for contributing to this forum is to empower people to consider the bigger picture and to question the rationale behind all supernatural belief systems. I am puzzled by your focus on the fiscal operations (or lack of) in the meetings elizabethcoleman. If you were to apply a ‘hierarchy of advocacy’ framework, the members of the church whose website donation page is as follows, and who are obviously under real pressure to hand over their money to this business, would likely benefit from such advocacy. But then again, given the bible does not outline any fiscal process, ‘anything goes’, so churches can use whatever techniques they like and cite the bible to validate these.
Donate (Redlands Christian Reformed Church). A Guide to Giving
We encourage everybody to think about their giving. Sure, one person’s situation is different to another, but there’s one thing that we all share: and that is God’s call for us to be positive and generous in supporting the ministry and mission of the church.
Introduction
Even a brief look at the Bible tells us that Christians are called to serve. Service requires giving - giving of our time, our talents and our blessings. There are many passages in the Bible which speak about these things, eight of which are listed below.
The best attitude
Thoughtfully
"How can I repay the Lord for all his goodness to me?" (Psalm 116:12)
Gladly
"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Cor. 9:7)
Sacrificially
"Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability." (2 Cor 8:2,3)
Earnestly
"Entirely on their own, they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints." (2 Cor 8:4)
Honestly
What Ananias and Sapphira did not do, as described in Acts 5:1-5
According to your means
"The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea." (Acts 11:29)
Regularly
"On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money, in keeping with his income ......." (1 Cor 16:2)
Generously
"But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to give as generously as this? Everything comes from you, and we have given you only what comes from your hand." (1 Chron. 29:14)
Our obligation to give is clear. All we have has been received from God and giving is part of the Christian life.
How can I gift my money to the work in the Redlands?
There are various ways in which you can give:
• Arrange a regular direct debit from your bank account. Forms to put this in place are available from your Bank.
• Set up a regular transfer with your Internet Banking facility.
• Place money in the church collection box, located on the information table
• Request envelopes from the Treasurer for regular contributions
You may also give to various local and international ministries through the collections in each church service. These are earmarked for the cause mentioned weekly in the newsletter.
Which is the best way?
That depends on your circumstances and your preference. From the point of view of simplicity, regularity and amount of work involved, the direct bank debit system is by far the best. Just fill out a form and give it to your bank /credit union. If you set it up on the Internet, donations are automatic. You don't have do anything else, and the church treasurer doesn't have to count it or bank it. We encourage you to make use of this facility as soon as possible.
When should I start giving regularly?
Pretty much as soon as you start earning, including pocket money earned while you are young. It's a terrific habit to get into. Also the earlier you get into that habit, the easier it is to continue in it, and the easier it is to give cheerfully. (It also enables more of God's work to be done.) Anyone who receives a regular income should definitely be giving regularly .
Who can I talk to?
Any of the elders, one of the Pastors or the Treasurer will be happy to talk with you.
Saying "Thanks" by giving
Think of giving as an expression of gratitude to God for all that he has done and continues to do in Jesus.
God’s response to heartfelt giving:
• Giving with the correct attitude benefits the giver more than the receiver. Jesus says " It is more blessed to give than receive" (Acts 20: 35)
• Giving draws our heart toward Christ. " For where your treasure is there your heart is also" ( Matt 6: 21)
• Giving develops godly character
• Giving allows us to invest for eternity " But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven"... (Matt 6 : 20 )
• Produces a material increase for the giver. "There is one who scatters, yet increases all the more, and there is one who withholds what is justly due, but it results only in want. The generous man will be prosperous, and he who waters will himself be watered." ( Prov 11:24)
Further Information…
• Treasurer
Todd Hammond
treasurer@redlandscrc.org.au
• Bills/Accounts
Ingeborg De Ruysscher
ingeborg@redlandscrc.org.au
• Administration
Wendy Hammond
office@redlandscrc.org.au
Church Bank Details
NAB Mt Gravatt
BSB: 084 435
Account number: 47287 4363
Please include the word “Pledge” as a statement reference, and your surname and first initial if you desire.
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if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
) for contributing to this forum is to empower people to consider the bigger picture and to question the rationale behind all supernatural belief systems.