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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 4:49:20 GMT -5
Interesting.......what I find interesting is that we are concerning ourselves with this at all!!! Something tells me this has nothing at all to do with faith. Should a so called head worker, trustee or whatever use funds for that which is illegal and immoral, my belief is God will 'sort it'.....if we don't have the faith to believe that, what is it we can believe? There is a reason there are verses in the Bible to do with examining ourselves and not being a stumbling block.....yes sure people aren't to be a stumbling block to us, neither should we be to others. This sounds all good from a religeous and spiritual point of view. God is the righteous judge and will judge when the time comes, so judgement should/ must be left to Him. We should not therefore concern ourselves, and be stumbling blocks to others who might find themselves on the wrong side. Let us look at it from another angle. If we are aware that someone is doing something wrong and illegal should we not concern ourselves about it, and just leave judgement to God? Should we not have feelings, concerns, compassion for victims of crime, for example CSA victims or any victims of sexual or other abuses? Why concern ourselves with these things at all? I Don't honestly think that it is the right spirit that God would expect us to have/adopt. The parable of the Good Samaraton would be a good example for us to follow. Let it be our concern and business, to help those that are in need of help and that are disadvantaged, even in financial matters and its transparency; nothing to hide, nothing to fear or be embarrassed about.
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Post by howitis on Jan 13, 2016 4:51:16 GMT -5
Yes Ross.Bowden and Roselyn T so often money given may well be used in ways that we do not agree with and I also accept that my way of thinking may well prompt the 'you've got your head in the sand' comment or the 'problems need to be addressed' comment......I am also very aware of my own imperfections, that I am a sinner, and only know of God's mercy because of Christ
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 13, 2016 12:56:07 GMT -5
Interesting.......what I find interesting is that we are concerning ourselves with this at all!!! Something tells me this has nothing at all to do with faith. Should a so called head worker, trustee or whatever use funds for that which is illegal and immoral, my belief is God will 'sort it'.... .if we don't have the faith to believe that, what is it we can believe?There is a reason there are verses in the Bible to do with examining ourselves and not being a stumbling block.....yes sure people aren't to be a stumbling block to us, neither should we be to others. You have raised an interesting point here howitis, When we find something wrong and we realize that our faith has been unjustified then that calls into question the rest of the organisation. It's a bit like a house of cards, take one out and the whole lot fall over. So it is with the 2x2's. They just don't stack up.
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Post by howitis on Jan 13, 2016 21:05:33 GMT -5
Yes Ross.Bowden God is indeed sovereign over all, Christ is our leader, faith is our shield, if we truly believe this then there are many, many matters that will not concern us. I do not see the overseers technically as 'leaders', just people trying to do a certain task and they need our prayers to carry that out, just as much as I need the prayers of others to remain true. There is a thread commenting on workers giving bibles and whether they pray over them or not.......maybe they do, maybe not, but in reflection....perhaps when we offer gifts if we were to pray that they would be used wisely, this would help. Another option for those wary of how their gifts would be used is to either not give or instead of gifting money...pay for the hall hire for missions or special meetings, take workers shopping and buy their new shoes, their groceries, hair cut, etc The way I see it if I'm not willing to pray for a situation or a person I'm in no position to criticise either.
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Post by howitis on Jan 13, 2016 22:36:57 GMT -5
The point is Ross.Bowden, I'm broken.....I cannot perceive to correct another whether they be person, organisation, system unless I am perfect.......that being said my faith in Christ makes me whole and holding onto that faith and giving myself completely to God commands my all......without which, I am nothing.
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Post by howitis on Jan 14, 2016 0:49:15 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden it certainly doesn't mean that I would do nothing should I know there was definitely a problem and I had proof. However, me assuming I know, simply by reading here, it would not be correct for me to utter a single word. Assumption and guessing that I know doesn't help anyone, least of all myself. Those CSA offenders, if they did indeed use trust money to fight their case will be brought to judgement as will those who allowed it to happen if that is the case. In my experience people like that often find money to fight their cases whether they have access to a trust fund or not, so the outcome is often the same. When there is a problem that I have absolute knowledge of, I address it as we are told in the scripture, with a witness, if it is a legal matter I report it....without absolute knowledge I leave it alone. There are many ways for those concerned about accountability to still help out and quite often you will find workers are often at a loss of what to do with some of the 'gifts' offered.
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Post by blandie on Jan 14, 2016 13:05:26 GMT -5
Most of the problems we come across as families or groups or communities or nations or churches aren't something we've personally witnessed. The bible says the church as a body is to act as judge and jury when it comes to issues raised to do with the church matthew 18:17 and 1 corinth 5:12 and 6:4. Turning a blind eye or willing ignorance and pretending everythings peachy when issues are raised based upon not having personally observed isn't concern or an excuse. I pity any kid who gets molested and their parents don't do any inquiry or take action based upon not having personally observed the incident and its a mystery to think that horrible approach would be extended also to other serious issues raised in a church family in which one was a member.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 13:39:34 GMT -5
The point is Ross.Bowden , I'm broken.....I cannot perceive to correct another whether they be person, organisation, system unless I am perfect.......that being said my faith in Christ makes me whole and holding onto that faith and giving myself completely to God commands my all......without which, I am nothing. Of course you're broken and sinful....like every other human being that has ever existed except Christ. But that doesn't give us an out in the environment in which we live - family, work, community etc. If I took your reasoning seriously (which I don't I wouldn't correct or give feedback to my kids, those who work for me, to elected officials etc. Because we have faith, as Jesus clearly pointed out in His sermon on the mount, the bar has been raised significantly for those who believe. We have a clear responsibility to manage ourselves and we have a clear responsibility to others. If we cannot see our way clear for example, to correct a worker who has committed CSA against a minor and report them to the authorities because we are somehow not perfect, then we simply abdicate our God given responsibility and commandment to love our neighbour. The same applies (back to the topic) if you found out a person in leadership in your church had stolen trust money. If nobody corrected anyone else because we are all imperfect, it would be an interesting society - something like what eventuated in Lord of the Flies. That aged old question comes to mind: am I my brother's keeper?
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Post by emy on Jan 14, 2016 17:18:05 GMT -5
Most of the problems we come across as families or groups or communities or nations or churches aren't something we've personally witnessed. The bible says the church as a body is to act as judge and jury when it comes to issues raised to do with the church matthew 18:17 and 1 corinth 5:12 and 6:4. Turning a blind eye or willing ignorance and pretending everythings peachy when issues are raised based upon not having personally observed.... Howitis did not say she must be a witness to the event... just that she requires more info than reaading online or similar. ...it certainly doesn't mean that I would do nothing should I know there was definitely a problem and I had proof. However, me assuming I know, simply by reading here, it would not be correct for me to utter a single word. Assumption and guessing that I know doesn't help anyone, least of all myself. ...
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Post by blandie on Jan 14, 2016 19:35:38 GMT -5
Howitis did not say she must be a witness to the event... just that she requires more info than reaading online or similar. ...it certainly doesn't mean that I would do nothing should I know there was definitely a problem and I had proof. However, me assuming I know, simply by reading here, it would not be correct for me to utter a single word. Assumption and guessing that I know doesn't help anyone, least of all myself. ...Knowing definitely and having proof is an impossible high standard to set before a church or organization or group should investigate and deal with something let alone as a qualification for even discussing it. People - not necessarily howitis - use that sort of excuse so often its sickening to sweep serious issues under the carpet and pretend everythings perfect. Like I said - I wouldn't want to be an abused kid with parents whose thinking went along those lines when confronted with an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 22:04:52 GMT -5
Thank you, for this post of yours, Ross. Trying to give howitis benefit of doubt, I had just reached the same conclusion as you expressed in your post above.
This is typical 2&2ism hypocrisy and I have both witnessed and experienced it over the last 30 plus years since becoming aware of it. It is my suspicion there will be no response, as most of the group members I have known prefer to ignore rather than address such issues when exposed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 4:14:14 GMT -5
Thank you, for this post of yours, Ross. Trying to give howitis benefit of doubt, I had just reached the same conclusion as you expressed in your post above.
This is typical 2&2ism hypocrisy and I have both witnessed and experienced it over the last 30 plus years since becoming aware of it. It is my suspicion there will be no response, as most of the group members I have known prefer to ignore rather than address such issues when exposed. Ah yes! "Blind loyalty" involves loving to every fault; loving no matter what faults are there, visible or invisable.
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Post by howitis on Jan 15, 2016 17:41:06 GMT -5
Thank you Ross.Bowden,@dennisj, Roselyn T, @partaker, blandie and emy for your comments. Yes indeed I did say that to go to another to raise or try to rectify an issue I would like to have absolute proof and have a witness with me. As for Doug Parker, I merely raised the question as to whether any of those who took his writings to heart had ever questioned his motives. This is often something taught at high school language level.....if a piece of literature impresses us, we look into that person's life, and maybe people known to them a little to see where the inspiration came from. To say I never met Doug privately is one thing, but it does not necessarily mean I have never been in his presence which would be an assumption totally on your part. In relation to CSA it is my personal feeling , as a victim, it doesn't matter how many tear stained messages one hears, either from the perpetrator or church leaders, these do very little to bring about healing, however if some victims feel that's what they require I hope they receive apologies for what they endured. Since my part in asking workers to not have a perpetrator attend meetings when they professed again,( this particular person had spread their tentacles wide and had many victims known to me although I was not one of them, but had never been convicted), is counted as 'sweeping stuff under the carpet', it is obvious even people on here, even though they say differently, prefer people to say and do nothing. BTW that particular perpetrator was not allowed to attend fellowship meetings or convention. In relation to rebaptising a convicted person, I think it better he went to the same denomination rather than rocking up to a different church and being baptised....not many denominations I know do a WWCC to baptise someone. In regards to the OP if a trust fund were used to obtain legal aid in respect to CSA, that is sad, (and we have no choice, but to trust in God's judgement over the matter), people of that ilk will find the funding from somewhere regardless. Should we be concerned lest our own gifts are misused we need to give in a different manner. Once a gift is given it really is up to the recipient.....for instance someone may give me a beautiful bowl and I may choose to use it to feed an animal from, and yes the giver may be offended, but really the gift has already passed hands. This is my last post on this thread, for those that do not like what I have said so be it, I have given my opinion, responded to you all and am ever thankful for the grace, mercy and love of God. Greetings to you all.
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Post by kittens on Jan 15, 2016 18:59:12 GMT -5
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Post by maryhig on Jan 15, 2016 19:30:59 GMT -5
"In relations to CSA it is my personal feeling, as a victim, it doesn't matter how many tear stained messages one hears, either from the perpetrator or church leaders, these do very little to bring about healing, however if some victims feel that's what they require I hope they receive apologies for what they endured." by howitis. I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think the perpetrator should be made to apologise but only to acknowledge they have done something wrong. From what I've noticed the only reason any of them ever apologise is because they have been found out and they think it will let them off the hook or they are being forced to apologise. Not one that I know of has every been sincerely sorry for the pain they have caused so to accept it as repentance is sheer hypocrisy. Yes it's no good saying sorry just because you've been caught, true repentance is saying sorry once we know we've sinned. We can't say we know God then commit something as vile and wicked as CSA and just expect a quick apology to be ok. That Christ has covered that sin. Gods no fool, and he knows the depths of our hearts. And he knows who's truly repented. God is love, but he does chastise his own when we sin. We are more accountable when we know God. Hebrews 10 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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Post by xna on Jan 15, 2016 20:11:03 GMT -5
I wonder how the trust funds are holding up in 2016. Are they invested in: stocks, bonds, private equity, cash, futures, real estate, alternative investments, gold, ....
Does a down year reduce the annual withdraw rate?
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Post by blandie on Jan 18, 2016 15:22:24 GMT -5
I wonder how the trust funds are holding up in 2016. Are they invested in: stocks, bonds, private equity, cash, futures, real estate, alternative investments, gold, .... Does a down year reduce the annual withdraw rate? Thats going to depend on the trustees and its a good question. In the past investments in at least some places were into income-producing assets and not for long-term capital appreciation. The problems haven't had to do with there being large funds but that theres been no accountability and some overseers have just chucked the money at relatives or toward people they liked - maybe not a good way to invest anything. Overseers aren't qualified to be business people or overseeing business dealings and some have been content to let things run unsupervised so long as money was readily provided on request and with that sort of minimal oversight theres a lot of opportunity for mixing funds that can become a tangle even with proper accounting. But the 'don't worry your pretty head about that' patronizing answer is about the best reply to be expected the way things are - and more likely it'll come with a stern look or outright rebuke about not being your place to even think of such things. The way its set up theres no way to know whats going on at any particular time. Based on the few I've come across you can pretty well determine where the money goes by looking at what business ventures the trustees are into. In the past - and maybe still - in southern california the money was heavily invested in commercial real estate and in northern cali the money was put into real estate development schemes and in the northwest it went into other business ventures and on the east coast a lot seems to sat in banks. Whether any of it has gone into stock market speculation is a good question. The supposedly well-off trustees - well I wonder how much of their operations consist of or are propped up by church assets and inflow? Some didn't seem to be good business people or capable of amassing anything like their reputed wealth. In the cases where things went awry theres been consequences to friends who've thrown in their capital with these 'trusted' people too and transparency would help provide info for friends who might not be so ready to put their life savings at risk. this is not what the bible shows as being good stewardship
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 18, 2016 17:21:10 GMT -5
Love the wee chimps and very appropriate in this conversation. The home where I went to for Sunday morning meeting had one of these sitting on the mantelpiece. Hear no evil, see no evil, say no evil. It should also have one where the chimp is seen ripping his conscience out and tossing it in the bin.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 12:55:30 GMT -5
I have been asked to post this on behalf of someone knowledgeable about the accountability aspect of financial matters of the church. There will be no responses to questions from the original writer, so the information will have to be accepted or rejected as is. In my personal opinion, this information is 100% credible and is important to the discussion. "I am interested in the purpose of this thread and have waited some time before considering replying.
I am not a trustee but am closely related to someone who has served in that capacity within the church.
One of the troubles you highlighted is what is fact and what is fiction. No one other than the overseer knows the full picture but I will jot down a number of things I am aware of and add a note about the level of certainty I have on each.
By the way I am not prepared to be pressed for any further details on these, as I am not prepared to put any individual at risk of identification.
I) Cheques would arrive from time to time (from another trustee) that would require a signature from the trustee I knew. The 2 signatures were presumably there for safeguard of assets purposes (This is 100% certain)
II) Sometimes assets left to the work are ‘awkward’ and pose problems to the church and overseers. I know of a case where a very valuable ‘awkward’ asset (worth a 6 figure sum) was simply handed on to one of the saints (not a trustee) and he was given total ownership (with no reciprocal payment). (This is 100% certain)
III) A non-liquid valuable asset was left to the work, who sold it on to one of the friends at a significant discount (This is 100% certain).
IV) A significant amount of the church funds went missing. Church leaders from other parts flew in to get involved. (This is 100% certain)
V) Some assets are not even passed on to the trustees. Another individual (not a trustee) may hold church funds for a significant period of time (decades) while it gradually gets wound down in size. (This is 100% certain). This is likely, in my view, to be unknown to the main fund trustees (I have no idea on the certainty of this last part, but is my belief based on the feel of what I’ve witnessed).
Around transparency, I imagine in any ‘accounts’ , (II) above would not be disclosed at all if the asset is disposed of quickly. I also suggest that (III) would only show up as the amount that was paid for the asset.
For (V) there is a risk this asset mightn’t be shown at all, though it would show up whenever any amounts were handed over in future years (assuming they got added to the trust fund). There is a clear risk though of these assets going missing should the overseer die, if he hasn’t clearly written it down in his records for others to pick up on his death. "I have been reading through everything here and this post stood out as being the closest to what Admin was looking for when he set up the thread.
Could Admin confirm that what bgm has written is the type of post he has been looking for and, if so, also tell us what he intended should happen now that we have it.
The content does strongly support the case for why transparency is needed.
I really can't understand the non-response from Admin to this. Why the silence?
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Post by Admin on Feb 5, 2016 8:10:56 GMT -5
Hi morriss and blackwood, yes it's an excellent post on topic. But it's up to members of the F&W fellowship including Elders and Workers whether any notice is taken. Don't hold your breath waiting for any change. It is a very conservative church. I have no influence at all.
If I was ruler of the world, some things would be different. For example, all trust funds would be managed with full transparency, and I would aim to disburse the funds quickly to be used for the spread of the gospel and for charity. There would be a church-wide apology for past CSA failings, among Workers and Friends alike, and a new attitude of corporate repentance and zero tolerance. But I'm not, and these are seemingly not priorities among the ruling class.
The strongly ethical views of yourselves, bgm and many others here is nevertheless encouraging. admin
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 20:21:34 GMT -5
I suppose if yachts appeared, I'd get concerned, but otherwise I see money is generally used for conventions and travel, support of workers in harsh places - that's certainly not a secret. Good grief, can you imagine trying to implement financial controls (expense reports, financial systems of control, boards, audits). I doubt there's widespread abuse of money, but that's based on my personal observations. i.e. polite refusal to accept money from me because of uncertainty of where I stood with regard to the fellowship; the modest lifestyle; ... I think there have probably been individual instances of abuse - but really widespread abuse? I don't think so. Here in the US with 40 or so overseers for the states and 3 or 4 deacons entrusted in each state (probably) you suddenly have nearly 200 people colluding. I think abuse to the extent it exists is isolated and eventually self corrects with the exchange of overseers and staff. So, if I get very stoked about this issue, I might remember who was the most concerned about the cost of alabaster box and the bag? On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with openness and accountability...and there should be nothing to be afraid of be being open and accountable. I frankly doubt, though, there's anybody that could give a comprehensive account, so it'd have to be on a local level and by the time it's done can you imagine the expenditure of energy and the million or so threads each account would generate here for what would ultimately end up being pretty immaterial amounts. I'm ok with how it works for now. But I'm not unobservant of indididual attitudes - the casual shopping by one individual versus the car pooling to save gas by another. Those little things are the most telling to me. The problem isn't extravagant spending by 2x2 ministers, it's how all that stashed away money is used by the 2x2 members (not all ministers) who oversee those accounts. Since the monies are in the personal accounts of those members, there is nothing from stopping them from using it for their own investments, businesses, etc. That's embezzlement. The main reason 2x2s don't have a proper financial accounting and transparency system and instead use a mafia-like secretive system is so that it is impossible to sue them for damages - you cannot collect if you sue a 2x2 minister. If you don't know where the money is, it's pretty hard to sue them for damages and collect. This is what makes all those CSA cases so horrible, that the victims cannot collect any compensation from the perpetrators because all the money is hidden away in secret accounts.
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Post by magpie on Jan 12, 2017 7:41:21 GMT -5
NINE PAGES ABOUT SOMETHING THAT ILLEGALLY DOES NOT EXIST>"ACCOUNTABILITY". BUT SIMPLETON YOU HAVE SAID IT ALL(Re DAMAGES). BUT THE STATES, PROVENCES AND COUNTRIES THAT HAVE REGISTERED THEMSELVES AS MANY HAVE AND STUPID ENOUGH TO INCORPORATE AS A RELIGIOUS "ORGANISATION" EVEN MORE THAN ONE AS CHARITIES,ONE I KNOW IS A SUBJECT FOR CLASS ACTION OVER CRIMINAL PEDOPHILE ACTS ON THEM BY THE PREACHERS,THE WORKERS LISTS AND AREAS THEY ARE AND HAVE WORKED IN ARE HANDY TOO.IMAGINE HOW THOSE RURAL FAMILIES IN VICTORIA FELT A FEW YEARS AGO,WHEN THEY EXPECTED POLICE TO COME TO QUESTION THEM OVER THE FACT ONE OF GOD'S TRUE SERVANTS HAD BEEN IN THEIR HOME? HE DID GET SIX MONTHS AND THERE WAS MULTIPLE VICTIMS.
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Post by stargazer on Apr 22, 2017 18:42:33 GMT -5
I suppose if yachts appeared, I'd get concerned, but otherwise I see money is generally used for conventions and travel, support of workers in harsh places - that's certainly not a secret. Good grief, can you imagine trying to implement financial controls (expense reports, financial systems of control, boards, audits). I doubt there's widespread abuse of money, but that's based on my personal observations. i.e. polite refusal to accept money from me because of uncertainty of where I stood with regard to the fellowship; the modest lifestyle; ... I think there have probably been individual instances of abuse - but really widespread abuse? I don't think so. Here in the US with 40 or so overseers for the states and 3 or 4 deacons entrusted in each state (probably) you suddenly have nearly 200 people colluding. I think abuse to the extent it exists is isolated and eventually self corrects with the exchange of overseers and staff. So, if I get very stoked about this issue, I might remember who was the most concerned about the cost of alabaster box and the bag? On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with openness and accountability...and there should be nothing to be afraid of be being open and accountable. I frankly doubt, though, there's anybody that could give a comprehensive account, so it'd have to be on a local level and by the time it's done can you imagine the expenditure of energy and the million or so threads each account would generate here for what would ultimately end up being pretty immaterial amounts. I'm ok with how it works for now. But I'm not unobservant of indididual attitudes - the casual shopping by one individual versus the car pooling to save gas by another. Those little things are the most telling to me. The problem isn't extravagant spending by 2x2 ministers, it's how all that stashed away money is used by the 2x2 members (not all ministers) who oversee those accounts. Since the monies are in the personal accounts of those members, there is nothing from stopping them from using it for their own investments, businesses, etc. That's embezzlement. The main reason 2x2s don't have a proper financial accounting and transparency system and instead use a mafia-like secretive system is so that it is impossible to sue them for damages - you cannot collect if you sue a 2x2 minister. If you don't know where the money is, it's pretty hard to sue them for damages and collect. This is what makes all those CSA cases so horrible, that the victims cannot collect any compensation from the perpetrators because all the money is hidden away in secret accounts. Again, I can't get very excited about the potential for one individual embezzling. If you have evidence it's occurring by all means, speak up. In the mean time it seems like a waste of good hand wringing.
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