|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2015 9:32:49 GMT -5
So what are we looking for here? Trying to explain the mysteries of life is challenging, but God would be a boring topic if there were no
personal connection. How have you experienced God?
My own experiences are a bit lame. I've felt the emotional tug that every churchgoer feels--usually during hymns--but I don't have much in the way of true God-experiences. I do remember one day sitting on a tractor, I was maybe 16, and emotions washed over me--some would call it being "bathed in the Spirit"--and I felt overcome by the glory of everything around me, I felt that I would gladly die for another person, anyone, that if God wanted me to give my life to the Work I would do so. (I never did feel the "call".) I sat on the tractor and cried for several minutes until the wave passed over me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 4, 2015 11:40:26 GMT -5
I honestly do not know whether I have experienced god or not.
When I reflect on the experiences that I consider *could* have been god-experiences, the commonality seems to be a heightened emotional state...even if that emotion was serenity and peace.
So, was it god? Or was it endorphins and tryptophan?
|
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Dec 4, 2015 16:11:27 GMT -5
I honestly do not know whether I have experienced god or not. When I reflect on the experiences that I consider *could* have been god-experiences, the commonality seems to be a heightened emotional state...even if that emotion was serenity and peace. So, was it god? Or was it endorphins and tryptophan? Why is this an "Or" question? Can it not be both? |
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Dec 4, 2015 16:12:32 GMT -5
I hesitate to post here, as I am not sure that I fit DD’s intentions for this type of dialog. One of my earliest memories is what I would describe as a “spiritual experience”. Over and over, throughout my life, I have returned to that place of supreme okaynessness, connectedness, groundedness and meaning. I don’t really regard myself as a seeker or a searcher, other than, as much as possible, I try to get out my own way and to experience the deep silence/stillness/space that exists at the core of my own being, between thoughts and below emotional storms.
I like that the question is framed in terms of “experiencing God”. In my view, experience is the only thing that counts. No thoughts, constructs, doctrine or dogma. Only experience.
I also think that most people experience “God” all the time, though they may not consciously recognize it as such or label it that way. (If not, our world would be way more insane than it already is.)
I’ve never read any Marcus Borg, though I have occasionally come across quotes of his that have resonated with me. However, when I came across the following, I felt that I could have written it myself:
“The effect was to transform my understanding of the word “God.” I began to understand that the word does not refer to a person-like being “out there,” beyond the universe – an understanding of “God” that ceased to be persuasive in my teens and twenties.
I began to understand that the word “God” refers to “what is” experienced as wondrous and compelling, as, to use William James’ phrase, “the more” which is all around us. Or to use a phrase from the New Testament, the word “God” refers to “the one in whom we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17.28). “God” is not a hypothesis, but a reality who can be known.
Thus, to argue about whether God exists seems to me to be based on a misunderstanding of what the word points to. If “God” means a person-like being “out there,” completely separate from the universe, then I am an atheist. I do not believe there is such a being. But if the word “God” points to a radiance that pervades “what is,” as I now think – then, of course, God is real. Not just the God of Christianity, but the God of all the enduring religions.”
This is why I would label myself a “believer”, though I am totally okay being labelled an “atheist” by others. That is why I have experienced deep feelings of kinship with people from almost all religious backgrounds and traditions, and even with people with none. It’s a way of looking at and living life.
|
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Dec 4, 2015 19:02:30 GMT -5
Religions thrive by indoctrinating children, and being b&r in the meetings, it was simply normal to speak about god as a real entity. So I prayed with an honest trust that he was present and listening. I eventually understood that when praying, I was simply talking to myself. It was all inside my own head. This insight combined with the irrational and illogical biblical claims caused me to realise that belief in god(s) is a futile enterprise (unless satiating ego, seeking to control others or for monetary gain).
Gods are created by humans. It is extraordinary that people continue to deceive themselves that they are in communication with a non-entity; there is zero evidence for a supernatural dimension. It is inconsistent for society to identify auditory and visual hallucinations as abnormal except when claimed by the religious.
God(s) were created by humans striving to explain their world. Science can now explain many of the causes for that which was once attributed to the gods. Why not just accept that we do not have all the answers instead of plugging any gaps of knowledge with an even greater gap - a god or gods who no-one can prove exists and who invokes a myriad more questions than answers.
|
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Dec 4, 2015 19:14:20 GMT -5
I honestly do not know whether I have experienced god or not. When I reflect on the experiences that I consider *could* have been god-experiences, the commonality seems to be a heightened emotional state...even if that emotion was serenity and peace. So, was it god? Or was it endorphins and tryptophan? ...or the second glass of wine? |
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 4, 2015 19:40:56 GMT -5
I honestly do not know whether I have experienced god or not. When I reflect on the experiences that I consider *could* have been god-experiences, the commonality seems to be a heightened emotional state...even if that emotion was serenity and peace. So, was it god? Or was it endorphins and tryptophan? Why is this an "Or" question? Can it not be both? Good point. And as such, it could be god who created or triggered the endorphins/tryptophan/serotonin.... or it could be an entirely separate and parallel influence. |
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2015 19:49:41 GMT -5
You're way ahead of us, Joanna. Come back in a few weeks after we've concluded that God is a white-haired guy in the sky.
|
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Dec 4, 2015 19:59:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 4, 2015 20:01:13 GMT -5
Because he's older than dirt, and I don't see him showing up in the Lady Clairol aisle at Walgreens. |
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 4, 2015 21:48:56 GMT -5
God(s) were created by humans striving to explain their world. Science can now explain many of the causes for that which was once attributed to the gods. Why not just accept that we do not have all the answers instead of plugging any gaps of knowledge with an even greater gap - a god or gods who no-one can prove exists and who invokes a myriad more questions than answers. Thanks DD(xdc) for your idea of these threads. Great topics. I am appreciating reading others' personal experiences and conclusions here. My own response to the title question is somewhat different from Joanna's. My human logic would tend towards what Joanna has written. But... if there is a God, he(she) would be revealed to his creation through creation itself. Further, his word in scripture and through son Jesus Christ suggests a reason for creation is to establish personal relationships with created human beings. Through the journey of life, I can look back on several now - very clear, strong and definite instances of personal contact and intervention by creator God, my own creator. There's no point me documenting them here. They are very personal, and indeed miraculous and very clear evidence (for me) that the God of the scriptures exists and that we can know each other. Yes, he is the (same) God of Abraham. My own experiences of life have included plenty of difficulties. I have not always trusted God in the journey. Discovering the reality of our creator God has been humbling. admin |
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2015 23:38:38 GMT -5
I honestly do not know whether I have experienced god or not. When I reflect on the experiences that I consider *could* have been god-experiences, the commonality seems to be a heightened emotional state...even if that emotion was serenity and peace. So, was it god? Or was it endorphins and tryptophan? 
So now I am sure it was just the"endorphins and tryptophan" kind of thing that happens to people on occasion.  (especially since they are marinated in that idea of a god or gods from the time that they are babe in their mothers arms)
|
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2015 0:08:27 GMT -5
I hesitate to post here, as I am not sure that I fit DD’s intentions for this type of dialog. One of my earliest memories is what I would describe as a “spiritual experience”. Over and over, throughout my life, I have returned to that place of supreme okaynessness, connectedness, groundedness and meaning. I don’t really regard myself as a seeker or a searcher, other than, as much as possible, I try to get out my own way and to experience the deep silence/stillness/space that exists at the core of my own being, between thoughts and below emotional storms. I like that the question is framed in terms of “experiencing God”. In my view, experience is the only thing that counts. No thoughts, constructs, doctrine or dogma. Only experience. I also think that most people experience “God” all the time, though they may not consciously recognize it as such or label it that way. (If not, our world would be way more insane than it already is.) I’ve never read any Marcus Borg, though I have occasionally come across quotes of his that have resonated with me. However, when I came across the following, I felt that I could have written it myself: “ The effect was to transform my understanding of the word “God.” I began to understand that the word does not refer to a person-like being “out there,” beyond the universe – an understanding of “God” that ceased to be persuasive in my teens and twenties.
I began to understand that the word “God” refers to “what is” experienced as wondrous and compelling, as, to use William James’ phrase, “the more” which is all around us. Or to use a phrase from the New Testament, the word “God” refers to “the one in whom we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17.28). “God” is not a hypothesis, but a reality who can be known.
Thus, to argue about whether God exists seems to me to be based on a misunderstanding of what the word points to. If “God” means a person-like being “out there,” completely separate from the universe, then I am an atheist. I do not believe there is such a being. But if the word “God” points to a radiance that pervades “what is,” as I now think – then, of course, God is real. Not just the God of Christianity, but the God of all the enduring religions.”
This is why I would label myself a “believer”, though I am totally okay being labelled an “atheist” by others. That is why I have experienced deep feelings of kinship with people from almost all religious backgrounds and traditions, and even with people with none. It’s a way of looking at and living life.
My conclusion is that the only reason that we can experience the "radiance that pervades “what is,” -something that is "wondrous and compelling," -is simply due to the fact that humans have evolved to where are brains have become able to be knowledgeable of ourselves & our environment at the present time, and unlike what we discern about other animals, we can also remember our past experiences as well.
Then we take those experiences & extrapolate them into our hopes & desires for what will happen in the future.
And we can spin ourselves quite a yarn of what it is that we will hope for in the future!  (even an "afterlife")
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 2:26:29 GMT -5
How have you experienced God? Have I experience God? Most definitely. How have I experienced God? God spoke to me regularly when I was young to the point where I had no doubts as to his existence. God was a constant presence in my life, for better or for worse (usually for worse), a still small voice inside my head and I took very seriously what he said. I reckon I was so focussed on what God said that I never really thought too much about who God was or about the nature of God. For me, God was all about what God said and what God said was the word of God and the word of God was the bible. So did I believe in God or did I believe in the bible? The obvious answer is that I believed in God but I realise now that what I really believed in was actually the bible. The bible was, in effect, God. It was the bible that told us what God said and what God did and what God thought, it was the bible which was held in great esteem and held up as a holy book both at home and at school, it was the bible that was read in church, it was the bible that gave us the basis for the church, it was the bible that gave us the model for the ministry and it was the bible that gave the ministry authority. It was the bible that we read from and that was read to us, it was the bible that we carried around with us, it was the bible that gave us our understanding of heaven and hell, it was the bible that taught us how we should live and how we shouldn't and it was the bible that gave us Jesus. Without the bible there would have been no God, at least no God as I understood it. So did I really experience God? I definitely experienced what I thought was God. But how does one tell if what one is experiencing is really God or just something which feels like God but isn't God? How can tell if what we are experiencing is really God or just something which feels exactly like what we think God should feel? Can we really tell the difference between God and something which isn't God but which we believe to be God and which behaves exactly as we believe God would? Is what we deem to be the voice of God really the voice of God or is it really a voice from somewhere else which just happens to be saying the sorts of things we would expect God to say? I think questions are probably more useful than answers at this stage. Matt10 |
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Dec 5, 2015 12:57:52 GMT -5
So what are we looking for here? Trying to explain the mysteries of life is challenging, but God would be a boring topic if there were no personal connection. How have you experienced God? My own experiences are a bit lame. I've felt the emotional tug that every churchgoer feels--usually during hymns--but I don't have much in the way of true God-experiences. I do remember one day sitting on a tractor, I was maybe 16, and emotions washed over me--some would call it being "bathed in the Spirit"--and I felt overcome by the glory of everything around me, I felt that I would gladly die for another person, anyone, that if God wanted me to give my life to the Work I would do so. (I never did feel the "call".) I sat on the tractor and cried for several minutes until the wave passed over me. Good morning all. DD, I like the way you set the context and tone for this thread in the OP. In responding, I shan't use the expression "experienced God". As an agnostic, I acknowledge that I am unable to know if there is a God or if there is no god. If there is a God I am unable to reduce the essence of that entity to human defined categories. Rather, I perceive cosmic reality as a set of nested realities. I believe the reality of a slug is fundamentally different from my reality and yet we share points of contact and interaction. The realities of my cat and dogs is significantly different from my own and yet each of these realities interact intimately and in profound ways to influence each other. The question then becomes is human consciousness the non plus ultra of all cosmic consciousness? In the complete absence of any data or evidence regarding this question, I choose to leave the door ajar to the possibility that there may be a consciousness greater than man. I offer three specific examples from my experiences suggesting a reality inaccessible to sensory or cognitive analysis. One was experienced in a religious ritual context, one was experienced in a "spiritual" context and the last is purely secular. 1) while walking back through the pasture following my baptism, the words of the hymn "He walks with me and He talks with me . . ." passed through my mind. As DD expressed in the OP, I felt "bathed in the spirit". The feeling of loneliness was replaced with companionship and connection, uncertainty regarding the path ahead was reduced by the sense of a fellow traveler. To this day that hymn induces a feeling of reverie. 2) while attending a yoga retreat the instructor encouraged us to press through and beyond the discomfort of a particular pose and then guided us back to a state of relaxation. Spontaneously tears began to flow in copious amounts from my eyes across my cheeks and drip onto my chin. I felt no fear, anger, sorrow, connection or joy, just the flow of two rivers toward a point of convergence from my inner being. 3) many years ago my wife and I sat on the bank of a stream while on a hike. I had my arm around her shoulder as I stroked her arm. At some point I lost awareness of separateness. I was unable to differentiate between my fingertips and her arm. Rather, I felt a unity. These three experiences are offered as neither examples of God's presence nor an endorphin rush. Rather they are offered in the hope that others might understand why I choose not to shut the door on the possibility of a reality beyond human categories and why some may experience transcendence. |
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Dec 6, 2015 6:13:22 GMT -5
So what are we looking for here? Trying to explain the mysteries of life is challenging, but God would be a boring topic if there were no personal connection. How have you experienced God? My own experiences are a bit lame. I've felt the emotional tug that every churchgoer feels--usually during hymns--but I don't have much in the way of true God-experiences. I do remember one day sitting on a tractor, I was maybe 16, and emotions washed over me--some would call it being "bathed in the Spirit"--and I felt overcome by the glory of everything around me, I felt that I would gladly die for another person, anyone, that if God wanted me to give my life to the Work I would do so. (I never did feel the "call".) I sat on the tractor and cried for several minutes until the wave passed over me. In my experience I feel related to (almost) everything and integrated in all of nature. Sometimes that connectedness is a source of peace; at other times I find inspiration for various things. Other than that my experiences are largely those of awe, love, and the feeling that arises when observing acts of compassion. Those wow moments in life. All my experiences feel spiritual and as though they are part of something bigger than myself. I acknowledge, however, that they could easily be fuelled by oxytocin or some other hormones. |
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Dec 7, 2015 16:42:02 GMT -5
In my experience I feel related to (almost) everything and integrated in all of nature. Sometimes that connectedness is a source of peace; at other times I find inspiration for various things. Other than that my experiences are largely those of awe, love, and the feeling that arises when observing acts of compassion. Those wow moments in life. All my experiences feel spiritual and as though they are part of something bigger than myself. I acknowledge, however, that they could easily be fuelled by oxytocin or some other hormones. I would see this as a reasonable descriptor of my base state as well. The only "pause" I have here, is your last sentence, because of the almost throw away "OR" implicit there. I don't relate to "This could be 'God' OR this could be Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins. Why would they necessarily be separate? We are in physical bodies. Why would anything about our physiology be separate from a 'God' experience? Or, does the presence of Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins necessarily exclude 'God'? Materialists may see it that way. I don't. It is well over a decade since I attended a lecture by Candace Pert on the Molecules of Emotion. I have never got around to reading her book, though I do own it and have long intended to do so. |
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 7, 2015 19:19:06 GMT -5
In my experience I feel related to (almost) everything and integrated in all of nature. Sometimes that connectedness is a source of peace; at other times I find inspiration for various things. Other than that my experiences are largely those of awe, love, and the feeling that arises when observing acts of compassion. Those wow moments in life. All my experiences feel spiritual and as though they are part of something bigger than myself. I acknowledge, however, that they could easily be fuelled by oxytocin or some other hormones. I would see this as a reasonable descriptor of my base state as well. The only "pause" I have here, is your last sentence, because of the almost throw away "OR" implicit there. I don't relate to "This could be 'God' OR this could be Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins. Why would they necessarily be separate? We are in physical bodies. Why would anything about our physiology be separate from a 'God' experience? Or, does the presence of Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins necessarily exclude 'God'? Materialists may see it that way. I don't. It is well over a decade since I attended a lecture by Candace Pert on the Molecules of Emotion. I have never got around to reading her book, though I do own it and have long intended to do so. In my view, they wouldn't *necessarily* be separate, but the point is they *could* be separate. |
|
|
|
Post by Guest4 on Dec 7, 2015 21:19:17 GMT -5
When we experience creation in full, we may be also experiencing G-D in part.
This is what I think anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Dec 7, 2015 22:15:12 GMT -5
When we experience creation in full, we may be also experiencing G-D in part. This is what I think anyway. Could you say more about your thoughts Guest4? |
|
|
|
Post by Guest4 on Dec 8, 2015 4:39:59 GMT -5
When we experience creation in full, we may be also experiencing G-D in part. This is what I think anyway. Could you say more about your thoughts Guest4? G-D is simply incomprehensible, imo I may be able to experience/comprehend (Creator) We (as created spiritual beings) were included in this fantastic plan in order for us to want to get to know/love(experience) the One that makes all things. And to love to have Him as the to be our LORD Our experiences in this pursuit are all very personal and we risk sharing them with others unless we feel comfortably certain 'they' will understand how our experience have created a faith in what we experience and feel about our Creator. I really wanted this to be simple answer and I did try.  ? |
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Dec 8, 2015 7:00:32 GMT -5
Guest4 thanks for your additional comments, I understand your earlier post better now. In some respects my views are probably close to your own. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Dec 8, 2015 7:40:32 GMT -5
In my experience I feel related to (almost) everything and integrated in all of nature. Sometimes that connectedness is a source of peace; at other times I find inspiration for various things. Other than that my experiences are largely those of awe, love, and the feeling that arises when observing acts of compassion. Those wow moments in life. All my experiences feel spiritual and as though they are part of something bigger than myself. I acknowledge, however, that they could easily be fuelled by oxytocin or some other hormones. I would see this as a reasonable descriptor of my base state as well. The only "pause" I have here, is your last sentence, because of the almost throw away "OR" implicit there. I don't relate to "This could be 'God' OR this could be Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins. Why would they necessarily be separate? We are in physical bodies. Why would anything about our physiology be separate from a 'God' experience? Or, does the presence of Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins necessarily exclude 'God'? Materialists may see it that way. I don't. It is well over a decade since I attended a lecture by Candace Pert on the Molecules of Emotion. I have never got around to reading her book, though I do own it and have long intended to do so. I'm wondering. Do you see a possibility where one does not cause the other? If so can you explain a bit how you envisage it? |
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Dec 8, 2015 12:21:02 GMT -5
I would see this as a reasonable descriptor of my base state as well. The only "pause" I have here, is your last sentence, because of the almost throw away "OR" implicit there. I don't relate to "This could be 'God' OR this could be Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins. Why would they necessarily be separate? We are in physical bodies. Why would anything about our physiology be separate from a 'God' experience? Or, does the presence of Dopamine, Serotonin, Oxytocin, and Endorphins necessarily exclude 'God'? Materialists may see it that way. I don't. It is well over a decade since I attended a lecture by Candace Pert on the Molecules of Emotion. I have never got around to reading her book, though I do own it and have long intended to do so. I'm wondering. Do you see a possibility where one does not cause the other? If so can you explain a bit how you envisage it? Of course. Perhaps the point I was making was hair-splittingly small, and only of significance to me. I think it is pretty obvious that people get hits of "feel good" hormones all the time without perceiving it as a 'God' experience. I think it is very likely that when people have what they perceive as a 'God' experience, that it is accompanied by measurable changes in physiology/brain activity etc... What I was splitting hairs over was the thought that "this person, claimed they had a 'God' experience, but we measured a significant endorphin rush - therefore it wasn't a 'God' experience at all, it was simply endorphins." |
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 8, 2015 12:38:53 GMT -5
Of course. Perhaps the point I was making was hair-splittingly small, and only of significance to me. I think it is pretty obvious that people get hits of "feel good" hormones all the time without perceiving it as a 'God' experience. I think it is very likely that when people have what they perceive as a 'God' experience, that it is accompanied by measurable changes in physiology/brain activity etc... What I was splitting hairs over was the thought that "this person, claimed they had a 'God' experience, but we measured a significant endorphin rush - therefore it wasn't a 'God' experience at all, it was simply endorphins." That sounds logical. Perhaps events/acts/feelings attributed to god by believers are those that are not readily explained. And endorphin rush without any background of what really caused it could easily be credited to god. That same rush following an injection of a narcotic would probably not be credited to god. |
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Dec 8, 2015 21:29:27 GMT -5
I'm wondering. Do you see a possibility where one does not cause the other? If so can you explain a bit how you envisage it? Of course. Perhaps the point I was making was hair-splittingly small, and only of significance to me. I think it is pretty obvious that people get hits of "feel good" hormones all the time without perceiving it as a 'God' experience. I think it is very likely that when people have what they perceive as a 'God' experience, that it is accompanied by measurable changes in physiology/brain activity etc... What I was splitting hairs over was the thought that "this person, claimed they had a 'God' experience, but we measured a significant endorphin rush - therefore it wasn't a 'God' experience at all, it was simply endorphins." Thanks for that. I don't think it's splitting hairs at all. Would that necessarily imply that 'God' caused the endorphins? Or is there some other way of looking at it? |
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Dec 10, 2015 22:55:43 GMT -5
I too have experienced the endorphin/rush/epiphany that others speak of, and though I don't necessarily equate that with "God," I wouldn't exclude it either. I posted this in another thread in this sub-board a few minutes ago, and perhaps it is more appropriate here, in this thread:
I relate deeply to the Judeo-Christian writings, and I see in them a God who repeatedly confronts people - individuals and communities - kind of grabbing them by the throat and shaking them up. To Job (in the final chapters), God said something to the effect of "Who is this using so many words? Keep quiet, and I will ask of you." This is my experience of God, whenever I find myself growing complacent (which is often!), satisfied that I "have a handle on things." Though I see God as whatever is absolute for me or another person, the instant I begin to think I have things absolutely explained, that I know the "formula," that God is at my beck and call (even through repentance, prayer, etc.), I no longer have God.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 13:41:00 GMT -5
I too have experienced the endorphin/rush/epiphany that others speak of, and though I don't necessarily equate that with "God," I wouldn't exclude it either. I posted this in another thread in this sub-board a few minutes ago, and perhaps it is more appropriate here, in this thread: I relate deeply to the Judeo-Christian writings, and I see in them a God who repeatedly confronts people - individuals and communities - kind of grabbing them by the throat and shaking them up. To Job (in the final chapters), God said something to the effect of "Who is this using so many words? Keep quiet, and I will ask of you." This is my experience of God, whenever I find myself growing complacent (which is often!), satisfied that I "have a handle on things." Though I see God as whatever is absolute for me or another person, the instant I begin to think I have things absolutely explained, that I know the "formula," that God is at my beck and call (even through repentance, prayer, etc.), I no longer have* God.
Else, like usual Alan, I fully share and embrace what you have expressed here. Smiles. Glad for such unity in perceived belief, Alan.
Finding it more frequently now with entire strangers, adding to my thankfulness in daily life. |
|
(especially since they are marinated in that idea of a god or gods from the time that they are babe in their mothers arms)
(even an "afterlife") 
?
