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Post by howitis on Aug 6, 2015 0:44:15 GMT -5
Yes to an outsider!! A very nice one though!!
And yes I got an apology only to have it stated not 2 miles down the road, but 'I thought....', dangerous things those thoughts, when we get them going.
I could have left, but I have my faith and no one is going to take that from me!!! Not a person in the fellowship who does me wrong, not a worker who gets the story a bit mixed up.....no one!!!! It is MY gift from God!!!!
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 6, 2015 1:06:09 GMT -5
Who said anything about "running to a worker to ask a question" ? If a professing person marries an "outsider" the workers are pretty quick to come and ask questions, but if you were to ask "where does it say the workers have the right to stand anyone down in the Bible" that would be a question that should not be asked ! Ros, How long ago were you a part of our fellowship? You are correct that this use to happen years ago. It isn't that way any more. I would say that a lot of our new converts as of late have been because of those that have married "outside". This is the case in my area at least. Not sure about other countries. In about 2009 from memory, I think a lot depends where it happens and who the Overseer is. Maybe we should get Whyisitso's input about what happened to her in QLD Australia. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 6, 2015 1:10:13 GMT -5
From the "Marriage to an Outsider" Thread : Post Options . Post by whyisitso on Jun 26, 2012 at 5:30pm Please excuse the length of my post, and if you get to the end, thanks for reading - hope it makes sense - if it doesn't, I'm happy to clarify!  Queensland, Australia. It’s only in the last 9 months that I've stepped off my soap box and accepted things for how they are...that of course brought about some very tough decisions. I’m no longer going to meetings... I guess this was mostly brought about by when I married – we’ll call him HP (he doesn’t go to meetings – although was quite happy to support me and encourage me - he believes in God and prays) We’ve now been happily married for almost 2 years. 5 weeks AFTER I got married, the sister workers in my field came to visit and told me I had to stop taking part in the meeting (this was the day after they had been in meeting with me and I had taken part completely) – that was praying, speaking and the bread and wine. I asked them, what do you think HP will think about this? – The reply was ‘Well, does HP need to know?’ I cannot tell you how disturbed/sad/angry that made me feel – Through tears I said ‘Excuse me? - of course he does, he’s my husband – do you not think he will see how upset I am when he gets home?’ Then, because I was upset about it and didn’t agree, they brought 2 of the brother workers for a visit – we’ll call them ‘A’ and ‘B’. It was then that I said that I refused to go along with not taking the bread and wine as I didn’t think it was their job or right to tell anyone they weren’t worthy to do that – that I thought that should be an individual choice for anyone in the meeting for their own conscience to decide if they felt they were worthy to do so. The day I got engaged was one of the happiest days of my life – The day I got married was even better! 3 days after we were engaged I received a phone call from ‘A’, the worker. I told him I was engaged – this worker was in my field – I didn’t get to too many Gospel Meetings as I didn’t have a car, lived in the inner city and public transport is rubbish here. So I knew, not by the grapevine, but by my own mouth that the workers were well aware that I was engaged to someone who didn’t go to meetings. HP has attended several Sunday meetings with me, and a couple at Conventions. ‘A’ never saw fit to contact me prior to us getting married – he was well aware of when we were getting married – to tell me of this rule. My dad said to me 3 weeks before we got married, I’ve been worried about giving you away to a man who’s not professing and I said to my dad, ‘Well, I’ve done a lot of praying about this and God has given me peace in my heart to marry HP’ (praying was not necessarily done for God to give me peace and approval to marry a man who wasn’t going to meeting, but to marry the right man for me) So my dad just left it at that, never said another thing about it – I didn’t realise til well after that he was actually thinking (he has told me this since) – well if you’ve prayed and that’s the answer God gave you then who am I to question? Both of my parents were completely happy for HP and I the day we got married and I honestly don’t think I've ever felt such peace in my heart as I did that day... it was just perfect, perfect because God made us for each other. It took me a good 12 months after ‘the ban to speak’ to make the decision to stop going to meeting and I think for the most part it was because I knew it was different in other places, not as controlling – when I said that to the workers that even 1.5hrs south of this state it wouldn’t even be a conversation they just said, ‘Well we don’t know what goes on in other places’ Might I kindly suggest, maybe you should go to some other places!! (On one of the previous visit’s I mentioned it’s not like this in North America – well I should have known better – the workers in this state think there’s a complete lack of control in North America. I thought it best if I brought the scenario closer to home with any future reference of ‘other places’.) ‘The Ban’ of not speaking/praying in meeting was to be ‘oh it could be 6 months, it could be 12 months’ but apparently it doesn’t end. – well not for me anyway!! I have had several visits with the workers and phone calls and there is absolutely no backing down from them until I agree with what’s been done and I just simply cannot do that because to do that would be to override a conviction I have had from God. I had another couple of workers – ladies, but different to the first 2 – that came to visit – one of them asked me was I repentant? Do you believe in God? You do believe in the Ministry don’t you? You do understand that ‘A’ was doing God’s will don’t you – that the workers were sent by God? Then she said – you DO want to take part in the meeting don’t you? So I said – ‘’If you’re asking me do I believe in God – yes of course I do, If you’re asking me do I understand why I’ve been asked not to take part in the meetings – I will never understand that because it’s not scriptural and of course I want to take part in meetings, I’ve never not wanted to’ I had the feeling this visit (approximately 12 months since ‘the ban’ started) was to tell me I could take part again. Well, that wasn’t to be – she said that she thought it best that I had a visit with ‘A’ before any decision was made about me taking part again. The reason that they say to not take part (which is what I was told by the first lady workers that came, and ‘A’ and his companion) is that it is a way of saying that I've done the wrong thing – and to be an example to other young ones in the meeting that there are consequences for our actions. But I tried telling them that I haven’t done the wrong thing – I had several chats to God and God said it was ok!! I said to one of the workers, ‘So it seems like it’s a waste of time for me to have a relationship with God because I’m telling you I've prayed about something and have peace from God about it and you’re telling me it’s wrong so I might as well just forget about prayer and come directly to you if I need to get approval for anything’ - surprisingly no answer! So I asked ‘A’ about this rule and asked why didn’t everyone know about it? I also asked that if it was to help younger ones in the meeting then why didn’t one of the workers come with me that first Sunday I didn’t speak/pray or take part in the Bread and Wine and sat most of the meeting crying my eyes out? He said, well do you think that would be necessary – I said, well for an unwritten rule I think it would be helpful to let them know if that’s a rule here – given that it’s not scriptural, it could be confusing!. I also said I had asked another young couple I met with had they been told anything – they just said that the elder told them the workers had been to visit me and I was not going to be taking part for a while – so I said to ‘A’ ‘How do you think that is supposed to help anyone? It’s all very underhanded and secretive don’t you think – for a rule that you enforce?’ again – no answer. Another worker said to another couple in a similar situation not so long ago that the girl, who was professing (married a guy who had gone to meetings his whole life mind you but just had never ‘professed’) that she was not to take part in meeting as now she was marrying this guy the couple were told this the Sunday before they got married – This young guys parents had a meeting with 2 lots of the workers – one of them the head in this state and were told by both workers that the young lady needed to be ‘publicly shamed’ that that’s why this has to be done. She has been told she’s not allowed to take part until he ‘releases’ her – that can only mean one of two things – that he professes, or they get divorced! HP has been in on a couple of these ‘meetings’ with the workers – he said to them once ‘well it doesn’t really sound like you’re trying to encourage her at all – it doesn’t make any sense to punish her like this’ Oh it’s not a punishment ‘A’ said. My dad has had a several phone calls and met with “A’ a couple of times – the last time my dad said ‘Would it not hurt to show my daughter a little mercy’ ‘A’ said to my dad ‘We are showing her mercy by pointing her to God’. Anyway, I guess here they’ve never heard of ‘loving someone into the Kingdom’ because it doesn’t seem to be in the plan of action in these parts (referring to how HP has been treated). And I guess up until now I’ve just slipped under the radar and gone on with life on my own merry way – had my ups and downs but not ruffled any (workers) feathers so to speak. This post is not meant to ‘bag’ the workers in any way, it’s just the truth of my life and what’s happened in the past 2 years – I guess when you leave meetings you feel like you have to explain (as opposed to justify!) because you know the thoughts – which have been drummed into us since we were little kids – are going to be ‘oh poor thing, she’s lost out – I hope she realises before it’s too late’ and so on. Well, as I’ve assured my parents, I haven’t lost out – my relationship with God now is so much more meaningful and so much more free because I don’t feel all the pressures to do and be right with everyone else. I just have to be right with God – God is my judge. I don’t ask anyone to agree with my decision and quite frankly it doesn’t matter if they agree or not as everyone has their own convictions – I just ask my friends to respect my decision and continue to be my friend as it’s always been – if that’s what they think they can do – and so far that’s how it’s been. After going through all of this and coming out the other side with a far stronger relationship with God and much more peace in my heart, I just cannot believe that the workers try to be so controlling of the minds of people. My last visit with the workers was October last year where ‘A’ and his companion ‘just came for a visit’ I said, so not to talk about the white elephant in the room?. So then the white elephant was discussed and they suggested it would be good if I could come to any part of Convention I could get to. I went to 1 meeting and felt so empty. Incidentally, I have not heard anything from any worker in this state since my last visit with ‘A’. The last thing I want to add is this: There are some workers that I love and totally appreciate and know they are doing God’s will. Again, this post is not to ‘bag’ the friends/workers/meetings – and I’m not trying to be bitter – It is just my story. I have forgiven those who came and turned my life upside down because in reality they gave me a better understanding of what truly matters. I hope you don't mind me posting this whyisitso |
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 6, 2015 1:18:39 GMT -5
Do I need to use emoticons? I'm teasing, and you have to like people at least a little bit to tease them. Roselyn barely gives you time to answer before she asks another eight questions. I got the impression she didn't really care about or think about my answers - what was I supposed to think when every answer was met by another flurry of questions? There was the distinct feeling my head was being slammed into a bowl of porridge and I was being told to eat it to prove I like it. I didn't like it, on the other hand it seemed Roselyn did like it. We both might have the wrong impression of each other. same here Same here, meaning what @virgo ? |
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Post by howitis on Aug 6, 2015 1:34:49 GMT -5
Feel so sad for her (whyisitso's) experience, I guess mine was equally as bad or worse, funny thing is it was in Qld, where both me and my husband both made our choices again, side by side and have remained for well over 30 years, we were baptised together and even though the path has often been rocky and laden with many thorns, neither if us would have our experience any other way we can rejoice in the Living God.....together, the offences came thick fast and often, yet still we rejoice!!!
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Post by whyisitso on Aug 6, 2015 3:40:26 GMT -5
Feel so sad for her (whyisitso's) experience, I guess mine was equally as bad or worse, funny thing is it was in Qld, where both me and my husband both made our choices again, side by side and have remained for well over 30 years, we were baptised together and even though the path has often been rocky and laden with many thorns, neither if us would have our experience any other way we can rejoice in the Living God.....together, the offences came thick fast and often, yet still we rejoice!!! It still makes me feel sad sometimes when I think of the lack of love that I encountered. But, now I'm ok. Enjoying fellowship in another church. I know God led me to where I am now. As I said when I wrote this 3 years ago, I don't hold any malice to those who 'laid down the law'. I understand they were doing what they were told to do, not what they were guided by God to do So Jondough, this kind of behaviour is still very 'current' |
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Post by whyisitso on Aug 6, 2015 3:51:02 GMT -5
I don't think asking questions of a worker is an issue, but obviously if it is an issue enough for people to have to run to the Workers to ask, they personally already have an issue with it!! Prayer for Gods guidance , counsel and responding to Him is a large part of being a Christian I think. That's nice howitis, but that's what got me into trouble! How dare I go to God and not through the workers. I wasn't believed when I told them I had absolute peace in my heart about marrying my 'in-professing' husband... I didn't ask the workers anything ... Maybe that's where the problem started  |
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Post by howitis on Aug 6, 2015 3:52:25 GMT -5
Thankyou that you hold no malice, nor do I and I stuck it out and can well remember the tears. The thing is as God leads and guides us and we are willing to be led and guided we can become useful vessels wherever He places us and we must always remember the Master of the house gets to move His vessels wherever He desires.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 6, 2015 7:07:35 GMT -5
One thing that has bothered me since leaving the 2x2's is what to do about a funeral. As my Wife and I are now well into our 70's the inevitable gets closer every day. So you do think about it. I have become more science minded,than religious so would not be right to ask for a Church funeral. You can request a civil person to take it, but not keen about that. So I came to the conclusion that I did not want a funeral, and told my Family so. However I never had confidence that they would comply with my wishes. They won't listen to me in life,so even less likely in death. But God is good,he heard my cry some time ago. On Sunday night there is a program on our ABC( Government Broadcaster)called "Compass". Great program on all sorts of topics. Recently they had a series on funerals, Christian, Buddhist,Muslim,etc. In the last episode they said the way to get out of a funeral was to donate your body to a University for Medical Science. My prayers were answered. On the Monday morning I contacted our local University, who have a Medical Science faculty. They said they would love to have me, ( Dead of course) and what a generous gesture. Of course it was sight unseen, they may change their mind when I arrive. They sent me the paperwork to make it legal. With help from Family,filled in paperwork and sent it back. Family did ask me to change some of my preferred options, so as to keep the peace I conceded. They are only by law allowed to keep me for maximum 8 years, unless I am a special specimen, which can be kept for evermore.Don't think I will make the "A"list. When they are finished with me I will be cremated and ashes returned to Family. To top it all off, our Daughter is going to get my Wife's ashes, and mine, mix them together and have them made into a diamond. So it is a win, win, win, win, situation. No funeral, No cost, Well looked after, And end up as a gem. Our Daughter studied recently at the same University. We went to her graduation, where she obtained her Bachelor of Nursing degree. After the ceremony, she took us on a tour of the Health wing. We came across an Anatomy Lab for Medical students. I asked her if we could take a look as door was locked. She asked the head of Nursing if we could, but as it was a restricted area, permission was not granted. But we were allowed to look through the windows. All looked good to me, became very excited. Some may say I am facetious, but look forward to going there, think it will be fun. They are very respectful, strict protocols. On graduation day they hold a ceremony, in remembrance, and gratitude to donors. It is in a special remembrance garden that has been dedicated for that purpose. I now have a card in my wallet with instructions to tell anybody who finds me dead. Don't ring the Undertaker ring the University. It also gives me entrance to the University. I've wanted to do that all my life, but was unable to meet entrance standard. I am very much at peace with the choice I have made. Let there be peace. I post this information as other TMB members may wish to do the same. Easy process to sign up, much appreciated by the Universities. Redback You are a sweety opening this thread trying to make a difference. I sometimes watch compass just not the one you refer to. I had 2 relatives that did what you plan on your death. They gave up their bodies for research and had no funeral. The other day I saw a programme in UK where the staff pick up body parts (skin/eyes etc) and transport them to where needed. I began thinking about it..I don't think I could do what you plan. I'm too modest..lol Ive thought of cremation but one of my kids wants to be able to visit and I love the ocean..so I'm still at the drawing board stage. Then I thought of organising my own funeral.. choose the music I like etc Oh yes I dont have a pastor so thought of shipping my courier out esp to take it for me. Im trying to be lighthearted. Its the 4th death in 6wks another funeral tomorrow. |
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Post by bubbles on Aug 6, 2015 7:22:53 GMT -5
Feel so sad for her (whyisitso's) experience, I guess mine was equally as bad or worse, funny thing is it was in Qld, where both me and my husband both made our choices again, side by side and have remained for well over 30 years, we were baptised together and even though the path has often been rocky and laden with many thorns, neither if us would have our experience any other way we can rejoice in the Living God.....together, the offences came thick fast and often, yet still we rejoice!!! It still makes me feel sad sometimes when I think of the lack of love that I encountered. But, now I'm ok. Enjoying fellowship in another church. I know God led me to where I am now. As I said when I wrote this 3 years ago, I don't hold any malice to those who 'laid down the law'. I understand they were doing what they were told to do, not what they were guided by God to do So Jondough, this kind of behaviour is still very 'current' My heart went out to you when I read your testimony. I also can see how uncomfortable any worker might be with you saying God was happy about the marriage union. Two things come to mind one the fact you are a young woman also that you were hearing from god. Im glad you have found a fellowship that loves you and you feel loved. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 6, 2015 9:13:01 GMT -5
It still makes me feel sad sometimes when I think of the lack of love that I encountered. But, now I'm ok. Enjoying fellowship in another church. I know God led me to where I am now. As I said when I wrote this 3 years ago, I don't hold any malice to those who 'laid down the law'. I understand they were doing what they were told to do, not what they were guided by God to do So Jondough, this kind of behaviour is still very 'current' You can be sure that a true minister would never treat you or others this way -and God has shown you now that true ministers in your new church won't. Why any servant of God would want to publicly shame a person in their church for marrying a person in their church is also bizarre behaviour - but it's not Godly behaviour. But it does make it easier to move to another church where people show love and respect rather than engage in schadenfreude. There you go again Ross, just like review said you always have to get your dig in don't you. As if the workers are the only ministers who haven't always acted like "true ministers". It gets old. whyisitso has a way better attitude about it than you do and she is the one it happened to! You could learn something from her. |
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 6, 2015 10:04:28 GMT -5
Here's a response from an exe couple from another exclusive church group. They were "outsiders" , then "professed" and had originally, written books "PROVING" their own church to be the ONE true church. Then, after some years they questioned, and were excommunicated. I have relatives in this group, which has many similarities and of course, differences to the f&w church. Alvin theholdemans.com/Take a Message, Lord The gate is bolted, Lord, And we cannot scale the wall. Against a stony barricade Our words in silence fall. But You are never barred By the fortress round the soul; Within the guarded palisade Your Words like waters roll. In vain the heart is locked, And for naught the sentries keep; Within the strongest citadel Your tender pleadings sweep. Your Spirit flows unchecked To the hearts that hide away And whispers softly in their ear The words we cannot say. So take a message, Lord, To the ones we cannot reach And flood Your love within the walls That only You can breach. theholdemans.com/poem.htm |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 6, 2015 10:05:57 GMT -5
Do I need to use emoticons? I'm teasing, and you have to like people at least a little bit to tease them. Roselyn barely gives you time to answer before she asks another eight questions. I got the impression she didn't really care about or think about my answers - what was I supposed to think when every answer was met by another flurry of questions? There was the distinct feeling my head was being slammed into a bowl of porridge and I was being told to eat it to prove I like it. I didn't like it, on the other hand it seemed Roselyn did like it. We both might have the wrong impression of each other. Just to clarify Jesse_Lackman can you please tell me when I asked you all these questions ? I do not remember interacting with you that much, so I was surprised when you blocked me ! Yes I am very direct & say it how I see it ! Also I do ask questions ! Now I know asking questions of a worker is an issue, but surely on here we can ask questions ! Also I don't think you realise a lot of things that happen in Australia, when it comes to the way CSA has been handled here it leaves a lot to be desired. Oh Roselyn, do you really want to re-visit it? I see you say you do not remember interacting with me that much, that kind of confirms my point about asking questions and not really wanting answers. You weren't listening enough to even remember the interactions? Hmmm. Well, since I have a PhD in TMB I can help. Look at the various attitudes of the posters in this thread, note who gets the peaceful and productive interactions and who doesn't. Note who likes what. People generally don't like to interact with those who ask questions, interact, and voice criticisms with the grace of a 90 pound jackhammer. "Direct" (like a 90 pound jackhammer) is not always productive way to interact with others - some of my posts have been "direct". How well are they received? Not very well, but that doesn't mean what I jackhammered wasn't true - just that there are better ways to get a point across than the direct 90 pound jackhammer way. Sure it feels good to be "direct" and ask what we think are the hard questions but again it's not a productive way to produce beneficial conversation. It's interesting how many others are more wound up about whyisitso's story than she is. Like reposting it here on redback's "Let There Be Peace" thread. Why? Does reposting it add to the peace of the thread? Was peace the desire that motivated the reposting? Whyisitso said she doesn't hold malice, and proves it by her attitude. Sometimes I get the idea that those who are direct in the 90 pound jackhammer sense have their minds made up and actually don't want a two way conversation. They bring a bowl of porridge and just want to slam the other person's face in it telling them to eat it to prove they like it. That doesn't promote peace. Redback sees the attacks I'm talking about so it's not just a figment of my imagination. |
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 6, 2015 10:19:55 GMT -5
Who said anything about "running to a worker to ask a question" ? If a professing person marries an "outsider" the workers are pretty quick to come and ask questions, but if you were to ask "where does it say the workers have the right to stand anyone down in the Bible" that would be a question that should not be asked ! Ros, How long ago were you a part of our fellowship? You are correct that this use to happen years ago. It isn't that way any more. I would say that a lot of our new converts as of late have been because of those that have married "outside". This is the case in my area at least. Not sure about other countries. As of fairly recently, if you lived in NE and married outside, you'd be asked not to take part for a year. (To clarify, that's Mass and RI--maybe not elsewhere in NE). |
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Post by placid-void on Aug 6, 2015 10:59:58 GMT -5
You can be sure that a true minister would never treat you or others this way -and God has shown you now that true ministers in your new church won't. Why any servant of God would want to publicly shame a person in their church for marrying a person in their church is also bizarre behaviour - but it's not Godly behaviour. But it does make it easier to move to another church where people show love and respect rather than engage in schadenfreude. Ross, with all due respect, I could not disagree with you more strongly. I shall not contend with you as to whether or not the behavior to which you refer is "Godly behavior" or not that is a matter for your own personal beliefs. I do, however, contend in the strongest possible terms that the behavior described is neither bizarre nor an example of schadenfreude. Further, I think it would be most difficult for you to document the assertion that "true ministers would never treat you or others this way". Even the most casual observer of social group interactions is familiar with this behavior. The literature in Sociology is loaded with studies relating to this behavior both within groups of human subjects and within groups of innumerable other species, including ants and bees. For better or worse, the behavior is one of the most fundamental techniques for maintaining group cohesion and group identity since the beginning of time. Evolutionary psychologists interpret the behavior as a fundamental mechanism of survival at both the individual and group level. Depending on one's perspective it is possible to select multiple examples of the behavior in the OT. My own personal belief and understanding is that Jesus carried a message that attempted to temper the severity of the behavior. Perhaps the most interesting and challenging study would be of Paul's writing. It is my understanding that no one did more to bring the message of Jesus to "outsiders" (non-Jewish followers) than Paul, but my interpretation of Paul's epistles is that no one was more committed to establishing a clear separation and line of demarcation between "inside" and "outside" than Paul. It could be an interesting reflection. I hope your understand the passion of my response on a mere factual basis. I will leave the theological arguments to yourself and others more skilled in the art and more familiar with the "mind of God". None of my remarks should be considered insensitive to the testimony of "whyisitso". I think the approach, the desire for understanding of an arbitrary ruling and the openness shown by "whyisitso" over time is the hallmark of righteous behavior and I think the dismissive arrogance of the workers as described in her post is inexcusable by commonly accepted social norms of today. It is the arbitrariness of the commandment to cease "taking part" that is disturbing, particularly without a cogent explanation for why the action is being taken. I have always believed that if you can't support your own convictions don't burden others with beliefs you can't support yourself. But with all of that said, I believe it to be quite inappropriate to describe the behavior as bizarre or to suggest (based on the evidence provided) that anyone experienced schadenfreude as a consequence of this incident. |
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 6, 2015 11:03:38 GMT -5
Seems like progress ,that a person at least knows the rules are a one year suspension, compared to an indefinite suspension. Many suspensions have lasted for years and some never did get lifted??
Sometimes, I think the workers are put into impossible situations. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Reminds me of incident a few years ago. A young person, was professing, but did not take part in meetings. He married an "outsider" , and then he was asked to NOT take part in meetings. He was quite upset that he was not allowed to take part anymore, which he had not been doing anyhow. Oh, the sad comedy , us humans produce. Alvin
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2015 11:41:12 GMT -5
One thing that has bothered me since leaving the 2x2's is what to do about a funeral. As my Wife and I are now well into our 70's the inevitable gets closer every day. So you do think about it. I have become more science minded,than religious so would not be right to ask for a Church funeral. You can request a civil person to take it, but not keen about that. So I came to the conclusion that I did not want a funeral, and told my Family so. However I never had confidence that they would comply with my wishes. They won't listen to me in life,so even less likely in death. But God is good,he heard my cry some time ago. On Sunday night there is a program on our ABC( Government Broadcaster)called "Compass". Great program on all sorts of topics. Recently they had a series on funerals, Christian, Buddhist,Muslim,etc. In the last episode they said the way to get out of a funeral was to donate your body to a University for Medical Science. My prayers were answered. On the Monday morning I contacted our local University, who have a Medical Science faculty. They said they would love to have me, ( Dead of course) and what a generous gesture. Of course it was sight unseen, they may change their mind when I arrive. They sent me the paperwork to make it legal. With help from Family,filled in paperwork and sent it back. Family did ask me to change some of my preferred options, so as to keep the peace I conceded. They are only by law allowed to keep me for maximum 8 years, unless I am a special specimen, which can be kept for evermore.Don't think I will make the "A"list. When they are finished with me I will be cremated and ashes returned to Family. To top it all off, our Daughter is going to get my Wife's ashes, and mine, mix them together and have them made into a diamond. So it is a win, win, win, win, situation. No funeral, No cost, Well looked after, And end up as a gem. Our Daughter studied recently at the same University. We went to her graduation, where she obtained her Bachelor of Nursing degree. After the ceremony, she took us on a tour of the Health wing. We came across an Anatomy Lab for Medical students. I asked her if we could take a look as door was locked. She asked the head of Nursing if we could, but as it was a restricted area, permission was not granted. But we were allowed to look through the windows. All looked good to me, became very excited. Some may say I am facetious, but look forward to going there, think it will be fun. They are very respectful, strict protocols. On graduation day they hold a ceremony, in remembrance, and gratitude to donors. It is in a special remembrance garden that has been dedicated for that purpose. I now have a card in my wallet with instructions to tell anybody who finds me dead. Don't ring the Undertaker ring the University. It also gives me entrance to the University. I've wanted to do that all my life, but was unable to meet entrance standard. I am very much at peace with the choice I have made. Let there be peace. I post this information as other TMB members may wish to do the same. Easy process to sign up, much appreciated by the Universities. Yes, I'm not having a funeral either. Being cremated and if the family wants to have a get together at the house that's up to them. I think I should look into the medical donation thing. I've been meaning too actually so you're post has got me motivated again! I like the part of you and you wife becoming a diamond. |
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2015 11:46:42 GMT -5
Wow, I must be visiting a different TMB than some others. I just don't feel that abused. I definetely have found no reason to block any posters. Maybe it all happened while I was gone.....I just don't see it. I think it has more to do with personalities and their perspective of what is considered abusive. There is an old saying that goes like this. What we expect to see, we usually experience. Some feel challenged and persecuted more than others and it could be the same circumstances, just a different perspective of what's happening. I have never blocked anyone either. I see what is posted as opinions and not an attack. If it's particularly nasty, it isn't about me and reflects more on them so why get fussed about it? Maybe it also has to do with a person's level of confidence in what they believe? If we are a bit unsure maybe it's harder to let comments just roll off our backs? I know I get more defensive in areas where I am more unsure of my stance. It's likely just being human. |
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Post by jondough on Aug 6, 2015 11:52:52 GMT -5
There was a reason Jesus, Paul, and others told us without exception not to judge. We don't have the wisdom, nor the vision into the hearts of others to do so. When we go against that command, it only brings complications. Those that place themselves on the judgement seat WILL make mistakes, and injure the victims of their mistakes. Can some get over the injuries? Yes. Are there some that cannot? Yes.
Its always best to take the path that Jesus commanded with no exceptions.
I know that Paul reprimanded those that were meeting with the man that was living and sleeping with his step-mother. This brought shame to the church, as it was done openly, as if there was nothing wrong. It would have appeared as though the church was condoning the behavior. It was a shame to anyone in that day regardless of your religion. I can hardly see the correlation between that and marrying someone that wasn't born into your own exclusive fellowship. A fellowship that very few people in this world has ever heard of. Also, its important to understand that Paul was telling them that they should have made the decision themselves - as a church. It wasn't a matter for the Workers to take care of.
I'm thankful that the Workers here in the West have gotten away from putting themselves in the judgement seat in this way. I know so many people in our fellowship that are professing only because their spouse married outside of our fellowship. My dad is one of them.
We wont hijack this thread by getting into D&R though.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2015 11:55:15 GMT -5
Wow, I must be visiting a different TMB than some others. I just don't feel that abused. I definetely have found no reason to block any posters. Maybe it all happened while I was gone.....I just don't see it. Have you ever had Roselyn T on the attack like a horsefly on steroids? Probably not, if you had you wouldn't forget it. Yes you didn't see TMB at it's worst. When I registered it was unbelievable. It was so bad even hberry deleted her account. That should tell you something. It has gotten better. Jesse I see you get pretty personal too, and this post is a good example of that. Ros is direct but I don't see her the same way as you do, obviously. Review 005 has been a lot worse than anyone I have seen on here other than maybe Jason years ago. Why don't you take offence by what reivew005 says to people here? I find that very interesting actually. I think everyone here likes you Jesse and no one is intending to personally attack you by stating their opinions about their old religion. It is what it is. Hugs. |
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2015 12:22:44 GMT -5
I don't think asking questions of a worker is an issue, but obviously if it is an issue enough for people to have to run to the Workers to ask, they personally already have an issue with it!! Prayer for Gods guidance , counsel and responding to Him is a large part of being a Christian I think. That's nice howitis, but that's what got me into trouble! How dare I go to God and not through the workers. I wasn't believed when I told them I had absolute peace in my heart about marrying my 'in-professing' husband... I didn't ask the workers anything ... Maybe that's where the problem started What makes me sad when I read these things is how much abuse people endure just because they believe a certain church is the only right one. If you believe it's the only true way and you'll go to hell if you are not part of that church, you will take all kinds of abuse that should never be endured. I will never understand that part of religion and belief in God. To me it is very sad that ministers have such control and make so many lives miserable because they like that control they say is God sent. |
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2015 12:32:29 GMT -5
You can be sure that a true minister would never treat you or others this way -and God has shown you now that true ministers in your new church won't. Why any servant of God would want to publicly shame a person in their church for marrying a person in their church is also bizarre behaviour - but it's not Godly behaviour. But it does make it easier to move to another church where people show love and respect rather than engage in schadenfreude. Ross, with all due respect, I could not disagree with you more strongly. I shall not contend with you as to whether or not the behavior to which you refer is "Godly behavior" or not that is a matter for your own personal beliefs. I do, however, contend in the strongest possible terms that the behavior described is neither bizarre nor an example of schadenfreude. Further, I think it would be most difficult for you to document the assertion that "true ministers would never treat you or others this way". Even the most casual observer of social group interactions is familiar with this behavior. The literature in Sociology is loaded with studies relating to this behavior both within groups of human subjects and within groups of innumerable other species, including ants and bees. For better or worse, the behavior is one of the most fundamental techniques for maintaining group cohesion and group identity since the beginning of time. Evolutionary psychologists interpret the behavior as a fundamental mechanism of survival at both the individual and group level. Depending on one's perspective it is possible to select multiple examples of the behavior in the OT. My own personal belief and understanding is that Jesus carried a message that attempted to temper the severity of the behavior. Perhaps the most interesting and challenging study would be of Paul's writing. It is my understanding that no one did more to bring the message of Jesus to "outsiders" (non-Jewish followers) than Paul, but my interpretation of Paul's epistles is that no one was more committed to establishing a clear separation and line of demarcation between "inside" and "outside" than Paul. It could be an interesting reflection. I hope your understand the passion of my response on a mere factual basis. I will leave the theological arguments to yourself and others more skilled in the art and more familiar with the "mind of God". None of my remarks should be considered insensitive to the testimony of "whyisitso". I think the approach, the desire for understanding of an arbitrary ruling and the openness shown by "whyisitso" over time is the hallmark of righteous behavior and I think the dismissive arrogance of the workers as described in her post is inexcusable by commonly accepted social norms of today. It is the arbitrariness of the commandment to cease "taking part" that is disturbing, particularly without a cogent explanation for why the action is being taken. I have always believed that if you can't support your own convictions don't burden others with beliefs you can't support yourself. But with all of that said, I believe it to be quite inappropriate to describe the behavior as bizarre or to suggest (based on the evidence provided) that anyone experienced schadenfreude as a consequence of this incident. If someone was to actually model themselves after the God of the OT or the bible as it stands, they would truly be in trouble in this day and age. Religion is what it is. Imo one Christian religion really can't call down another Christian religion and have any credibility while doing so. It is the Christian ministers 'right' to create the rules they want their congregations to adhere to because they are supposedly mouthpieces for God. That is one reason why people are reluctant to ever think ill of ministers and they tend to get away with bad behavior longer than the layperson. Having addressed the religion aspect of it, I totally agree with you that this behavior is in every social group to some degree. Religions just claim they are doing it for 'spiritual' reasons and for the salvation of their members souls. That's when it can get more abusive and people will not stand up against it because of their religious beliefs. |
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2015 13:19:28 GMT -5
Imo one Christian religion really can't call down another Christian religion and have any credibility while doing so. Just to help sort out conversations, isn't christianity a religion? Perhaps you meant: Imo one Christian religion denomination really can't call down another Christian religion denomination and have any credibility while doing so. |
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2015 14:11:13 GMT -5
Imo one Christian religion really can't call down another Christian religion and have any credibility while doing so. Just to help sort out conversations, isn't christianity a religion? Perhaps you meant: Imo one Christian religion denomination really can't call down another Christian religion denomination and have any credibility while doing so. Yes, thank you. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 15:52:26 GMT -5
The words below have been a great inspiration to me for many years. Hope others find them to do the same.
I have them on the toilet door,able to read them often.
Desiderata
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be critical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy.
© Max Ehrmann 1927
The favorite part for me, are the last two paragraphs.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, NO DOUBT THE UNIVERSE IS UNFOLDING AS IT SHOULD.
THEREFORE BE AT PEACE WITH GOD, WHATEVER YOU CONCEIVE HIM TO BE,
and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life KEEP PEACE WITH YOUR SOUL
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. STRIVE TO BE HAPPY.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2015 16:05:00 GMT -5
The words below have been a great inspiration to me for many years. Hope others find them to do the same. I have them on the toilet door,able to read them often. Desiderata Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be critical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. © Max Ehrmann 1927 The favorite part for me, are the last two paragraphs. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, NO DOUBT THE UNIVERSE IS UNFOLDING AS IT SHOULD. THEREFORE BE AT PEACE WITH GOD, WHATEVER YOU CONCEIVE HIM TO BE, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life KEEP PEACE WITH YOUR SOUL With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. STRIVE TO BE HAPPY. Yes I've always liked that. Thank you for posting it redback. For all the things that go wrong, life is still absolutely amazing isn't it!! |
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Post by whyisitso on Aug 6, 2015 16:17:28 GMT -5
It still makes me feel sad sometimes when I think of the lack of love that I encountered. But, now I'm ok. Enjoying fellowship in another church. I know God led me to where I am now. As I said when I wrote this 3 years ago, I don't hold any malice to those who 'laid down the law'. I understand they were doing what they were told to do, not what they were guided by God to do So Jondough, this kind of behaviour is still very 'current' My heart went out to you when I read your testimony. I also can see how uncomfortable any worker might be with you saying God was happy about the marriage union. Two things come to mind one the fact you are a young woman also that you were hearing from god. Im glad you have found a fellowship that loves you and you feel loved. Thanks Bubbles I was 36 when I got married, so still young, but not wet behind the ears young! |
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2015 16:54:32 GMT -5
Please excuse the length of my post, and if you get to the end, thanks for reading - hope it makes sense - if it doesn't, I'm happy to clarify! Queensland, Australia. It’s only in the last 9 months that I've stepped off my soap box and accepted things for how they are...that of course brought about some very tough decisions. I’m no longer going to meetings... I guess this was mostly brought about by when I married – we’ll call him HP (he doesn’t go to meetings – although was quite happy to support me and encourage me - he believes in God and prays) We’ve now been happily married for almost 2 years. 5 weeks AFTER I got married, the sister workers in my field came to visit and told me I had to stop taking part in the meeting (this was the day after they had been in meeting with me and I had taken part completely) – that was praying, speaking and the bread and wine. I asked them, what do you think HP will think about this? – The reply was ‘Well, does HP need to know?’ I cannot tell you how disturbed/sad/angry that made me feel – Through tears I said ‘Excuse me? - of course he does, he’s my husband – do you not think he will see how upset I am when he gets home?’ Then, because I was upset about it and didn’t agree, they brought 2 of the brother workers for a visit – we’ll call them ‘A’ and ‘B’. It was then that I said that I refused to go along with not taking the bread and wine as I didn’t think it was their job or right to tell anyone they weren’t worthy to do that – that I thought that should be an individual choice for anyone in the meeting for their own conscience to decide if they felt they were worthy to do so. The day I got engaged was one of the happiest days of my life – The day I got married was even better! 3 days after we were engaged I received a phone call from ‘A’, the worker. I told him I was engaged – this worker was in my field – I didn’t get to too many Gospel Meetings as I didn’t have a car, lived in the inner city and public transport is rubbish here. So I knew, not by the grapevine, but by my own mouth that the workers were well aware that I was engaged to someone who didn’t go to meetings. HP has attended several Sunday meetings with me, and a couple at Conventions. ‘A’ never saw fit to contact me prior to us getting married – he was well aware of when we were getting married – to tell me of this rule. My dad said to me 3 weeks before we got married, I’ve been worried about giving you away to a man who’s not professing and I said to my dad, ‘Well, I’ve done a lot of praying about this and God has given me peace in my heart to marry HP’ (praying was not necessarily done for God to give me peace and approval to marry a man who wasn’t going to meeting, but to marry the right man for me) So my dad just left it at that, never said another thing about it – I didn’t realise til well after that he was actually thinking (he has told me this since) – well if you’ve prayed and that’s the answer God gave you then who am I to question? Both of my parents were completely happy for HP and I the day we got married and I honestly don’t think I've ever felt such peace in my heart as I did that day... it was just perfect, perfect because God made us for each other. It took me a good 12 months after ‘the ban to speak’ to make the decision to stop going to meeting and I think for the most part it was because I knew it was different in other places, not as controlling – when I said that to the workers that even 1.5hrs south of this state it wouldn’t even be a conversation they just said, ‘Well we don’t know what goes on in other places’ Might I kindly suggest, maybe you should go to some other places!! (On one of the previous visit’s I mentioned it’s not like this in North America – well I should have known better – the workers in this state think there’s a complete lack of control in North America. I thought it best if I brought the scenario closer to home with any future reference of ‘other places’.) ‘The Ban’ of not speaking/praying in meeting was to be ‘oh it could be 6 months, it could be 12 months’ but apparently it doesn’t end. – well not for me anyway!! I have had several visits with the workers and phone calls and there is absolutely no backing down from them until I agree with what’s been done and I just simply cannot do that because to do that would be to override a conviction I have had from God. I had another couple of workers – ladies, but different to the first 2 – that came to visit – one of them asked me was I repentant? Do you believe in God? You do believe in the Ministry don’t you? You do understand that ‘A’ was doing God’s will don’t you – that the workers were sent by God? Then she said – you DO want to take part in the meeting don’t you? So I said – ‘’If you’re asking me do I believe in God – yes of course I do, If you’re asking me do I understand why I’ve been asked not to take part in the meetings – I will never understand that because it’s not scriptural and of course I want to take part in meetings, I’ve never not wanted to’ I had the feeling this visit (approximately 12 months since ‘the ban’ started) was to tell me I could take part again. Well, that wasn’t to be – she said that she thought it best that I had a visit with ‘A’ before any decision was made about me taking part again. The reason that they say to not take part (which is what I was told by the first lady workers that came, and ‘A’ and his companion) is that it is a way of saying that I've done the wrong thing – and to be an example to other young ones in the meeting that there are consequences for our actions. But I tried telling them that I haven’t done the wrong thing – I had several chats to God and God said it was ok!! I said to one of the workers, ‘So it seems like it’s a waste of time for me to have a relationship with God because I’m telling you I've prayed about something and have peace from God about it and you’re telling me it’s wrong so I might as well just forget about prayer and come directly to you if I need to get approval for anything’ - surprisingly no answer! So I asked ‘A’ about this rule and asked why didn’t everyone know about it? I also asked that if it was to help younger ones in the meeting then why didn’t one of the workers come with me that first Sunday I didn’t speak/pray or take part in the Bread and Wine and sat most of the meeting crying my eyes out? He said, well do you think that would be necessary – I said, well for an unwritten rule I think it would be helpful to let them know if that’s a rule here – given that it’s not scriptural, it could be confusing!. I also said I had asked another young couple I met with had they been told anything – they just said that the elder told them the workers had been to visit me and I was not going to be taking part for a while – so I said to ‘A’ ‘How do you think that is supposed to help anyone? It’s all very underhanded and secretive don’t you think – for a rule that you enforce?’ again – no answer. Another worker said to another couple in a similar situation not so long ago that the girl, who was professing (married a guy who had gone to meetings his whole life mind you but just had never ‘professed’) that she was not to take part in meeting as now she was marrying this guy the couple were told this the Sunday before they got married – This young guys parents had a meeting with 2 lots of the workers – one of them the head in this state and were told by both workers that the young lady needed to be ‘publicly shamed’ that that’s why this has to be done. She has been told she’s not allowed to take part until he ‘releases’ her – that can only mean one of two things – that he professes, or they get divorced! HP has been in on a couple of these ‘meetings’ with the workers – he said to them once ‘well it doesn’t really sound like you’re trying to encourage her at all – it doesn’t make any sense to punish her like this’ Oh it’s not a punishment ‘A’ said. My dad has had a several phone calls and met with “A’ a couple of times – the last time my dad said ‘Would it not hurt to show my daughter a little mercy’ ‘A’ said to my dad ‘We are showing her mercy by pointing her to God’. Anyway, I guess here they’ve never heard of ‘loving someone into the Kingdom’ because it doesn’t seem to be in the plan of action in these parts (referring to how HP has been treated). And I guess up until now I’ve just slipped under the radar and gone on with life on my own merry way – had my ups and downs but not ruffled any (workers) feathers so to speak. This post is not meant to ‘bag’ the workers in any way, it’s just the truth of my life and what’s happened in the past 2 years – I guess when you leave meetings you feel like you have to explain (as opposed to justify!) because you know the thoughts – which have been drummed into us since we were little kids – are going to be ‘oh poor thing, she’s lost out – I hope she realises before it’s too late’ and so on. Well, as I’ve assured my parents, I haven’t lost out – my relationship with God now is so much more meaningful and so much more free because I don’t feel all the pressures to do and be right with everyone else. I just have to be right with God – God is my judge. I don’t ask anyone to agree with my decision and quite frankly it doesn’t matter if they agree or not as everyone has their own convictions – I just ask my friends to respect my decision and continue to be my friend as it’s always been – if that’s what they think they can do – and so far that’s how it’s been. After going through all of this and coming out the other side with a far stronger relationship with God and much more peace in my heart, I just cannot believe that the workers try to be so controlling of the minds of people. My last visit with the workers was October last year where ‘A’ and his companion ‘just came for a visit’ I said, so not to talk about the white elephant in the room?. So then the white elephant was discussed and they suggested it would be good if I could come to any part of Convention I could get to. I went to 1 meeting and felt so empty. Incidentally, I have not heard anything from any worker in this state since my last visit with ‘A’. The last thing I want to add is this: There are some workers that I love and totally appreciate and know they are doing God’s will. Again, this post is not to ‘bag’ the friends/workers/meetings – and I’m not trying to be bitter – It is just my story. I have forgiven those who came and turned my life upside down because in reality they gave me a better understanding of what truly matters. If workers were as diligent about dealing with CSA as they have been with punishing young folk for their marriage choices, some real progress would be made. |
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