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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 8:30:24 GMT -5
I 100% agree with jimmy. This statement is the most decent way of summarizing the way to deal with innuendos and potential false accusations. This board is NOT the place for slander. From my experience TOO MANY people assume and twist things from heresay without having any idea of facts. Act 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. We as God's chosen do not wish to be like this. This is reasonable comment and I support it. Let me make it clear that in my estimation false accusers and slanderers are also wrong doers, and what I have said about wrong doers equally apply to this category of persons; false rumour mongering can also cause lots of distress and hurt and injury to the falsely accused. Jesus Himself was falsely accused so He will understand the ramifications of such a state of affairs and no doubt will offer much comfort to those afflicted. Solid evidence, not circumstantial evidence, is required and necessary to back up accusations, otherwise doubt will enter the minds of people and the matter would not be satisfactorily resolved; that would not be fair to the alleged victim or to the falsely accused. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 13:47:02 GMT -5
Thank you jimmy, jay and partaker for your sensible posts. For many years I served as a JP, and I know that a person accused must be regarded as innocent, unless they are charged and convicted by law. They SHOULD NOT be subjected to persecution or harassment. This person has never been charged, so there should not be any further discussion about it. This warning should never have been made, it was completely irresposible. I note that concernedguest who started this thread, has not posted since. There is no concern, and everybody should forget this thread happened. Lets hope Admin deletes it. There will not be any further comment from me. I am an Aussie, and believe in giving people a fair go.
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cooee
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Post by cooee on Nov 11, 2014 15:43:08 GMT -5
Partaker - Willie is shown on the 1986 list as being in West Indies. From memory, I think he died there - perhaps during 1986? Others might be able to confirm that more closely. When I came to Sydney in the early 1980's after finishing school I stayed with folk who used to refer to Willie D as the Head Worker of Australia. I didn't hear that widely used and don't know whether or not it was because some wanted a Head Worker of Australia. I don't know that he would have ever had much jurisdiction over NSW. From what I recall he was highly respected, a good preacher and obviously a "mender" (of the divisions in Vic after Jack Carroll). Folk from Victoria/Tasmania would know more about him and could comment. Thanks Ross, yes I remember him well as a lad growing up he was well loved and respected, his companion was a Mr. Ricks, I don't remember his Christian name, but I believe that he also died and was buried in The West Indies. During that time I had already moved to the UK. I recall that one of Willie Donaldson's favorite hymns was: "Have thine own way Lorde' have thine own way." |
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Post by mdm on Nov 11, 2014 15:51:24 GMT -5
Wings and TMB exist because there is no transparency or accountability in the way the ministry handles reports of wrongs and crimes, and because the ministry has even discouraged reporting crimes to authorities.
If you are professing and don't like TMB being used to worn people about those suspected of sexual abuse, there is something you can do: ask the ministry to apologize for past mistakes of mishandling sexual abuse and to inform the church that everyone has the liberty and responsibility to report wrongs and crimes (crimes to authorities, otherwise to elders and workers) and that there will be no negative consequences for reporting.
If you are not willing to ask for these measures of the ministry, then you have no right to critizice those who have no other means of dealing with wrongs in the fellowship. Why not do something today - contact your local workers and your overseer and ask them for child-protection guidelines.
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cooee
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Post by cooee on Nov 11, 2014 15:56:02 GMT -5
Nov 10, 2014 at 8:05am Ross Bowden said:
"From what I recall he was highly respected, a good preacher and obviously a "mender" (of the divisions in Vic after Jack Carroll)".
Hello Ross,
The Victorian overseer was BILL Carroll, not Jack Carroll. Bill and Jack were brothers. Jack Carroll was an overseer in the USA.
cooee
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Post by mdm on Nov 11, 2014 16:00:34 GMT -5
Well that makes it even worse ! Mr Leitch is aware of his past therefore he should be letting the Head worker in QLD know & in turn people should be warned not to let him stay in their homes ! Rosyln, I understand that the person on whom this discussion is centred is no longer in the work and, as redback said, was visiting on his own volition. As such, he is no longer answerable to Mr Leitch. He is a private citizen who can go where he wishes, when he wishes. If people wished to see him as a friend then that is their business. If people didn't wish to see him, well that is their right also. In any case he has not been charged or convicted of any crime. He has however been the victim of significant heresy/slander by a number of people on this board. The behaviour of a number of people here has potential to have this board closed down. This board is not the correct place to air suspicions on people. That is likely to do more harm than good. If you know a victim of CSA, please do all you can to encourage them to go to authorities where the path to justice can be trod. I understand too well that the hurt of CSA cannot be healed, but it is in no-ones interest to create further hurt with potential false CSA accusations and innuendo of an individuals moral behaviours. My sources in Australia say that this person was sent to QLD by the ministry, and the workers were trying to find a place for him to "rest." Seems that he is not there purely on his own volition or responsibility. Sadly, before most professing people will report a crime, they need the permission from the ministry to do that. Please, speak to the workers and ask them to give unequivocal permission to all to report crimes. Also, if you are in Australia, ask overseers why SS is not in the work any more - why he disagreed with overseers about their handling of CSA issues and why that lead to him being dismissed from the work. |
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Post by magpie on Nov 11, 2014 16:52:21 GMT -5
60 years ago+? The person in discussions,dec brother was bought to the attention of a young boys father.Those days nothing done about it,so that brother finished up a Bishop.In Timothy the life of a Bishop must be beyond reproach? Dear "Redback",beyond reproach". Where there is smoke there is fire (or toast)why was the fire lit,why did the doubt start,why allowed into Queensland? Cause he is not wanted here.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 11, 2014 17:52:15 GMT -5
Well that makes it even worse ! Mr Leitch is aware of his past therefore he should be letting the Head worker in QLD know & in turn people should be warned not to let him stay in their homes ! Rosyln, I understand that the person on whom this discussion is centred is no longer in the work and, as redback said, was visiting on his own volition. As such, he is no longer answerable to Mr Leitch. He is a private citizen who can go where he wishes, when he wishes. If people wished to see him as a friend then that is their business. If people didn't wish to see him, well that is their right also. In any case he has not been charged or convicted of any crime. He has however been the victim of significant heresy/slander by a number of people on this board. The behaviour of a number of people here has potential to have this board closed down. This board is not the correct place to air suspicions on people. That is likely to do more harm than good. If you know a victim of CSA, please do all you can to encourage them to go to authorities where the path to justice can be trod. I understand too well that the hurt of CSA cannot be healed, but it is in no-ones interest to create further hurt with potential false CSA accusations and innuendo of an individuals moral behaviours. Jimmy is his name on the 2014 Workers List ? Has Mr Leitch confirmed with everyone that this person is no longer in the work ? If CSA was dealt with as it should be these discussions wouldn't be on TMB. So who is paying for him to go where he wishes if he is no longer a worker? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 11, 2014 17:56:56 GMT -5
Thank you jimmy, jay and partaker for your sensible posts. For many years I served as a JP, and I know that a person accused must be regarded as innocent, unless they are charged and convicted by law. They SHOULD NOT be subjected to persecution or harassment. This person has never been charged, so there should not be any further discussion about it. This warning should never have been made, it was completely irresposible. I note that concernedguest who started this thread, has not posted since. There is no concern, and everybody should forget this thread happened. Lets hope Admin deletes it. There will not be any further comment from me. I am an Aussie, and believe in giving people a fair go. So its better for there to be more victims because YOU think this person is above reproach Redback ? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 11, 2014 17:59:33 GMT -5
Has the individual been reported to the authorities and the determination that the allegations were groundless? Or have the allegations just been made internally? Not sure of the legal reporting requirements in Queensland but the ethical consideration should be clear. Yes, he has been reported. As far back as 2008. His name has been reported to more than one group of authorities. The senior workers are well aware of allegations against him. He has been shuffled around a few times as well. This may be his last shuffling, as the overseers are going to need to take action at some point. Without a victim willing to make a statement, the authorities can't do much, other than keep a note of allegations against him. So.....in the meantime, those who have heard of the allegations do as friends around the world do. They notify each other, and lose trust and respect for the senior workers who are involved. Some of those senior workers have made comments that they are dealing with it, but after years of not doing so, and evidently hoping it will deal with itself, they are no longer believed. Time and again, I have observed how senior workers try to protect a fellow worker from scandle, and by doing so have driven families out if the church. In one such situation, I guessed it to be over 200 people who left, which of course does not include the future generations who would have been in the church. It is much like the situation with Ernie Barry. He was convicted based on one individual willing to make a statement, had admitted to 6, and actually has victims numbering in the 20's based on information that has been reported since his conviction. |
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Post by magpie on Nov 11, 2014 19:18:14 GMT -5
Dear Roselyn T, Thanks,sometimes we feel lonely reading others splitting straws trying to push that worker worship to the "beyond reproach" attitude. Why dont they have some guts and just say NO!not in this ministry,we dont want to run the risk,with our children? And dont send him to South America,enough of the coverups for decades, NO! more. "WARNING-QUEENSLAND (WORLDWIDE) ALERT". That is all we needed to know. But there seems to still be "Redbacks"on the toilet seat?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 19:36:58 GMT -5
You people unfortunately can't even read a post and get it right. Lets just give up.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 11, 2014 20:02:58 GMT -5
You people unfortunately can't even read a post and get it right. Lets just give up. No Redback we will not give-up ! For myself I have nieces, nephews & many friends that still go to meetings in QLD & I think they have a right to be warned. As Magpie has said they don't want this person in Victoria, considering how things have been handled the last few years I am sure they don't want more scandal ! So the easy way out is say he isn't in the work anymore & let him go where he likes ! Is that being a responsible Christian ? |
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Post by magpie on Nov 11, 2014 20:16:37 GMT -5
NO REDBACK! As long as 2x2s as other celibate ministries are taking in and then covering up what is criminal acts towards children,I(we) wont stop. If that man is given a partner to go out to represent the Irvine doctorine in Queensland,why should any of us stop making a big noise.Will he be accommodated where?. As with the recent two "BEYOND REPROACH" men given jail sentences (one suspended,because State Elder arranges and supported an expensive crooked appeal) 1/ Barry-Warrigal Police have a list of twelve frightened victims?No real justice?. 2/ Chandler another "very?"pleasant person "BEYOND REPROACH".Pleaded guilty to twelve?victims or accounts of CSA (youngest "9",his time in South America to distance as they do with doubtfull brother/sister workers(from where unpleasant stories are filtering through)copped justice on his return, the JUSTICE is what was "BEYOND REPROACH?"." WARNING- QUEENSLAND ALERT" The Royal Commission background research staff read and take note of all various boards(including your watering downs) comments the give more power to the Wings submission, as with other groups.
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Post by magpie on Nov 11, 2014 20:47:52 GMT -5
Redback it is a worldwide known fact,EG-,,www.tellingthetruth.info/home/links.php
-----,,www.tellingthetruth.info/home/links.PHP
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Post by magpie on Nov 12, 2014 19:34:37 GMT -5
Go to BOARDS entry page index ,look up, "Wings-child abuse website" so the bound inner core still try to say its only a minor problem,"OH HE,s ONLY HUMAN",as in Ireland The Parents were accused of creating a story,imagine how they and their children felt? Right through "ALL" the unbiblically demanded celibate ministries,this problem becomes rife. If I am wrong,please,name one that has not this problem?
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Post by rational on Nov 12, 2014 20:06:30 GMT -5
Right through "ALL" the unbiblically demanded celibate ministries,this problem becomes rife. If I am wrong,please,name one that has not this problem? Repeating this refrain over and over does not make it true. In the RCC, for example, the rate of offenders among priests is lower than in the general population. If it is being celibate it would be difficult to explain why the vast majority of offenders are not celibate. CSA is a problem but posting misinformation is rarely a solution. |
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Post by magpie on Nov 12, 2014 22:34:40 GMT -5
Rationale? "Outside" the general population,and the various celibate ministries,do these people "outside" take an oath or commitment to/before God like eg,priests and workers, to refrain from breaking their individual vows to Him,to remain Godly in everything,including celibacy,that they do? The Holy Spirit gives individuals power to overcome their human frailties? Then when ministries play psuedo holy spirit,it is not the one God sent to guide and teach us is it?
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Post by penguin on Nov 15, 2014 3:12:39 GMT -5
NO REDBACK! As long as 2x2s as other celibate ministries are taking in and then covering up what is criminal acts towards children,I(we) wont stop. If that man is given a partner to go out to represent the Irvine doctorine in Queensland,why should any of us stop making a big noise.Will he be accommodated where?. As with the recent two "BEYOND REPROACH" men given jail sentences (one suspended,because State Elder arranges and supported an expensive crooked appeal) 1/ Barry-Warrigal Police have a list of twelve frightened victims?No real justice?. 2/ Chandler another "very?"pleasant person "BEYOND REPROACH".Pleaded guilty to twelve?victims or accounts of CSA (youngest "9",his time in South America to distance as they do with doubtfull brother/sister workers(from where unpleasant stories are filtering through)copped justice on his return, the JUSTICE is what was "BEYOND REPROACH?"." WARNING- QUEENSLAND ALERT" The Royal Commission background research staff read and take note of all various boards(including your watering downs) comments the give more power to the Wings submission, as with other groups. Re The Royal Commission "taking note" of various boards. I have experience of regulators and investigators of this nature and the way they usually work. Generally they focus on the larger organisations first. By knocking on the door of the largest organisations first, let's say the Anglicans, or RCC or Baptists, they gain access to the vast majority of power holders and members. I can guarantee the focus of the Royal Commission will be top down and they will follow the same pathway. The friends and workers are by no means the smallest church, and far from the largest, but I can guarantee they won't be interested very much in individual cases nor will they regard them as a dangerous cult such as where everyone has a suicide pact. When a report gets finally submitted it is going to recommend a set of guidelines and safeguards but it will not prosecute individual cases. I would doubt they have the resources to read everything which goes on here. I looked at their website a little while ago and it seems that while a year or more ago individual submissions (from the Catholics, Wings etc) were there to be seen they are either obscured or removed from public view now. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 15, 2014 12:29:31 GMT -5
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Post by magpie on Nov 15, 2014 16:49:54 GMT -5
Thanks Scott, One point of interest? Why did a State Leader allow and support such a terrible coverup of Mr Barry's known count of victims?.The history they accumulate is long and wide.Hillsong not as big as Australia's 2x2's numbers,or ministry spread.
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Post by rational on Nov 15, 2014 22:09:43 GMT -5
Rationale? "Outside" the general population,and the various celibate ministries,do these people "outside" take an oath or commitment to/before God like eg,priests and workers, to refrain from breaking their individual vows to Him,to remain Godly in everything,including celibacy,that they do? Whether they do or not makes little difference in their tendencies to abuse children. You need to stop looking at child abuse as some spiritual event and see it for what it is - criminal behavior that needs to be reported to and handled by the authorities that work with crimes. It is clear that if humans do nothing that nothing will be done. To best solve this problem leave god out of it.This may be your belief but it is not founded in reality. Again, it is people who are committing the crime and it is other people who can work to prevent the crime. You can blame the holy spirit or the lack of the holy spirit if you wish but in either case it makes little, if any, difference. |
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Post by rational on Nov 15, 2014 22:12:51 GMT -5
Thanks Scott, One point of interest? Why did a State Leader allow and support such a terrible coverup of Mr Barry's known count of victims?.The history they accumulate is long and wide.Hillsong not as big as Australia's 2x2's numbers,or ministry spread. Could it be because they are using a different definition of 'known' than the one you are using? |
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 15, 2014 23:01:35 GMT -5
Thanks Scott, One point of interest? Why did a State Leader allow and support such a terrible coverup of Mr Barry's known count of victims?.The history they accumulate is long and wide.Hillsong not as big as Australia's 2x2's numbers,or ministry spread. Could it be because they are using a different definition of 'known' than the one you are using? No, their 'known' number was at least 6 for sure, as Ernie confessed to that number. While cooperating with the authorities, the senior worker wore a wire to gather information to help the investigation. Later, workers cold called on some victim's and intimidated them in regard to making any statements to the authorities. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 16, 2014 2:40:31 GMT -5
Scott, if the workers have been visiting witness's and intimidating them then that could lead to a term of imprisonment. I'm not sure about statements to a Royal Commission but it shows to what lengths the workers will go to cover up their works of darkness. Maybe a few more of them rotting in jail will make the point.
And while I think of it, which convention is that ex worker who resides in Northland going to?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 3:48:23 GMT -5
Well there is nothing new about servants of God going to jail, Peter and Paul, the apostles went to jail for different reasons. Peter was released from jail by an angle, wasn't he?
If servant workers are present day apostles and they go to jail wrongfully, or unfairly, who knows, presumably the Good Lord might rescue them in one way or another. Then everyone , friends as well as doubters, will be satisfied/ convinced that they are God's true servants.Or so it is I believe., could be wrong though.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 16, 2014 4:11:25 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on whether you think the workers are apostles or NOT !
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 4:38:00 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on whether you think the workers are apostles or NOT ! A Correct statement. Most workers I have spoken to said that they are not apostles, like those sent out by Jesus; they said that they had a calling from God to enter the harvest field and they responded to that calling. They also said/say that they could not promise any one that they are able to do miracles etc. like the original Apostles were able to do. Some are quite open and honest about these things, how many, I am unable to say because I have only spoken to a very tiny fraction of the whole membership world wide; and as we have heard and read on this forum the fellowship is not entirely universal in practices and beliefs/doctrine; there appears to be some provincial variations. |
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