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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 9:03:29 GMT -5
Do the workers ever ask people why they left the meetings? And if there was something wrong that could have been addressed? The youth exodus is leaving some meetings looking like geriatric centers. I know some pretty faithful young people who have left lately. Yet those inside say these people were weak, bitter, not really in it, misled, etc.. Somehow the workers are going to have to read the internet websites about their fellowship and try to figure out what went wrong.
This is a better educated generation hooked up to all forms of social networking. You can't keep things secretive and under the table anymore.We all know about the Jim Knipe tapes,the you tube Texas excommunication from the elder, and so many things that were once kept secret. Wake up overseers.
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Post by matisse on Mar 31, 2014 9:36:00 GMT -5
Do the workers ever ask people why they left the meetings? And if there was something wrong that could have been addressed? The youth exodus is leaving some meetings looking like geriatric centers. I know some pretty faithful young people who have left lately. Yet those inside say these people were weak, bitter, not really in it, misled, etc.. Somehow the workers are going to have to read the internet websites about their fellowship and try to figure out what went wrong. This is a better educated generation hooked up to all forms of social networking. You can't keep things secretive and under the table anymore.We all know about the Jim Knipe tapes,the you tube Texas excommunication from the elder, and so many things that were once kept secret. Wake up overseers. Do they care? I have heard a couple of folks from the generation in the process of dying off, express the opinion that their time in the 30's 40's and 50's was an exceptionally favorable time in US history (?!) and a "sweet spot" for "god's harvest". How prevalent is the idea that the "harvest" is largely "complete" in the US? Other regions experiencing decline?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 12:16:47 GMT -5
Charles Thain was asked if he had any interest in his field (Wisconsin). He replied not much.He then went on to say that we are in the gleaning stage today.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 12:19:26 GMT -5
Here is an example of a young man being kicked out of the fellowship WAY BACK in 2012. The elder and overseer (Lyle Schober) lost one young man that day!!
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Post by fixit on Mar 31, 2014 13:52:14 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 14:02:20 GMT -5
i could not really hear lyle that much so i can't pass judgement on what he said...
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Post by davenz on Apr 1, 2014 1:05:39 GMT -5
Do the workers ever ask people why they left the meetings? I'm not exactly youthful however when we left in 2010 in our early 40's and took with us three kids ( 2 x teenagers). The silence and lack of interest from the workers was deafening. I requested a mtg with a worker I was related to and got on well with and he didn't want to discuss our reasons for leaving or even try and suggest we stay. The complete lack of interest in us then and until now has been nothing short of ....... Well to be honest just as I expected.
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Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2014 2:50:04 GMT -5
Do the workers ever ask people why they left the meetings? I'm not exactly youthful however when we left in 2010 in our early 40's and took with us three kids ( 2 x teenagers). The silence and lack of interest from the workers was deafening. I requested a mtg with a worker I was related to and got on well with and he didn't want to discuss our reasons for leaving or even try and suggest we stay. The complete lack of interest in us then and until now has been nothing short of ....... Well to be honest just as I expected. I wonder if a main reason is that their own faith is flimsy and they fear having it challenged? They might also feel that you've made your decision and want to be left alone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 7:12:20 GMT -5
In Australia there has been a huge CSA scandal with the Catholic Church. Since 1996 one third of that church's congregation has left. That's HUGE. CSA is often cited as a significant reason.
We have similar CSA issues now with the Salvation Army.
Yet a cursory examination of any attendance graph, of any church, shows that attendance has been falling for generation after generation. And issues like homosexuality, women preachers and CSA has not even dented those graph trend lines.
Forget falling church attendance, standards are falling. Citing CSA is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself in the Judgement.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 7:17:11 GMT -5
Do the workers ever ask people why they left the meetings? I'm not exactly youthful however when we left in 2010 in our early 40's and took with us three kids ( 2 x teenagers). The silence and lack of interest from the workers was deafening. I requested a mtg with a worker I was related to and got on well with and he didn't want to discuss our reasons for leaving or even try and suggest we stay. The complete lack of interest in us then and until now has been nothing short of ....... Well to be honest just as I expected. I wonder if a main reason is that their own faith is flimsy and they fear having it challenged? They might also feel that you've made your decision and want to be left alone. Both reasons are probably applicable in most cases. There should always be an exit interview if the exiting people are interested in doing so. It should be focused on simple genuine questions like: "in your experience, what did we do wrong?", "what can we do better?" "what could we have done that would have caused you to stay?" "what would we have to do that would cause you to reconsider coming back at some time?" Those questions never get asked because it is practically impossible for most workers and friends to acknowledge that the cause of leaving was anything but the sole fault of the people leaving. The immediate assumption that anyone leaving has a bad spirit and are leaving God, makes it impossible to seriously ask the above questions that I proposed. No questions need to be asked and "they know where to come back for Truth", so no contact (other than social contact) is required. Davenz's experience is perfectly logical and is repeated all over the world. This is yet another result of exclusive thinking. If you leave the meetings, there has to be something wrong with you because the ministry and the meetings are the only way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 7:27:50 GMT -5
Church attendance in Western countries has been falling by about one percent per year, I understand. This applies to my church like most others. Some questions - 1 - can anyone show our church is losing members faster than the average? 2 - if not, would this show there's an issue within my church, or without?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 7:57:00 GMT -5
Church attendance in Western countries has been falling by about one percent per year, I understand. This applies to my church like most others. Some questions - 1 - can anyone show our church is losing members faster than the average? 2 - if not, would this show there's an issue within my church, or without? Do you equate declining church attendance with increasing loss of salvation? If not, why is it such an important metric to you? Why would an exceptionally strong Christian need to attend church services at all? Increasing church attendance could be more of a sign of weak faith, not strong faith. After all, church attendance spiked for awhile right after 9/11. That should reveal something in itself. Church attendance may be for the weak in faith, while the strong in faith are out there doing something productive.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 8:00:27 GMT -5
The "argument" here is that declining attendance in my church is somehow related to reason x,y,z. But all churches are declining, more or less to the same extent, whether there be any x,y,z in sight. Therefor x,y,z's can't seriously be The Issue here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 8:04:54 GMT -5
The attitude that "We worship God but not in church" is fashionable. At some point in generations to come this will degenerate into "We don't worship God but tolerate religion." Some point further on this will degenerate into "We don't believe but hate the biblical God, and cannot tolerate churches."
Something like this happened with Paganism and pagan temples in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. It was a slow but relentless process.
When people say they worship God "but not in church" I simply don't believe them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 8:16:12 GMT -5
The attitude that "We worship God but not in church" is fashionable. At some point in generations to come this will degenerate into "We don't worship God but tolerate religion." Some point further on this will degenerate into "We don't believe but hate the biblical God, and cannot tolerate churches." Something like this happened with Paganism and pagan temples in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. It was a slow but relentless process. When people say they worship God "but not in church" I simply don't believe them.Now that's not very nice of you. Jesus foretold of this very thing, that people would no longer worship in church, but in spirit and in truth. Jesus came to destroy church institutions and rebuild it within individuals in spirit and in truth. His purpose may be get getting fulfilled finally with the crumbling of religious institutions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 8:26:07 GMT -5
Surely you jest. Jesus et al were talking about the temple, priesthood, holy days and other symbols. These men spoke of fellowship; gathering together in Jesus' name; nor forsaking our assembly etc.. Those who loved God were drawn to assemble; to imbibe the Word and be an encouragement to others.
Personally I find those who are faithful in attendance a great encouragement to me. Those who are off watching football or whatever are both offensive and discouraging.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 1, 2014 9:34:19 GMT -5
Jesus was also accused of being a friend of sinners etc. because of the company he kept and the places he went to encourage people. Imagine how "ripped" the "church" followers felt when this "radical",Jesus, had more interest from "outsiders" in one service he held, preaching from a boat, of all places, than they had for years, with all their, "gospel meeting" stuff. And to top it all off, this Jesus told them people could worship God in their hearts wherever they were,not only in "church, or jerusalem or....... blasphemer, away with him..... alvin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 9:53:31 GMT -5
Surely you jest. Jesus et al were talking about the temple, priesthood, holy days and other symbols. These men spoke of fellowship; gathering together in Jesus' name; nor forsaking our assembly etc.. Those who loved God were drawn to assemble; to imbibe the Word and be an encouragement to others. Let's not try to kid each other Bert: Temple--->priesthood--->holy days---->CHURCH Your justification for institutional assembly is made only when you quickly jump from Christ to "these men". Man made religion is what you seem to support. Jesus did not but spoke out against it loud and clear. So those who attend church to be "seen of men" and warm up the pews are more encouraging to you than people who are devoting their lives to succour the needy in this world? What does "worshipping in spirit and in truth" really mean to you anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 12:50:49 GMT -5
Citing CSA is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself in the Judgement. @@@@@@@@@ Bert, how DARE you call CSA and excuse.That is cruel and unfair to victis of CSA. Shame shame on you. I feel sorry for the victims who have to read some callous remarks. CSA is a sickness. It is NOT an "excuse" to do your own thing.
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Post by mdm on Apr 1, 2014 14:04:58 GMT -5
The "argument" here is that declining attendance in my church is somehow related to reason x,y,z. But all churches are declining, more or less to the same extent, whether there be any x,y,z in sight. Therefor x,y,z's can't seriously be The Issue here. You may be right in general. But on a smaller scale, in my little town, the meetings just got smaller by 2 adults + 2 children (of professing age, who probably would have professed in the next few years) because of cover ups of CSA and immorality in the ministry, and another church will gain new members. We are not leaving Christianity or quitting church attendance. Our quitting the meetings will also be reflected in a tiny part of Europe where I am from and where F&W are few. We know others who have left the meetings over same issues. But, in the F&W world, all is well. To them, we are just unwilling, unforgiving, rebellious, trouble makers.
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Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2014 14:08:00 GMT -5
Forget falling church attendance, standards are falling. Citing CSA is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself in the Judgement. Standards are actually rising. The secular world is getting better at insisting on justice for those who earlier generations have pushed aside. The Australian Government Inquiries Into Child Sexual Abuse is one example of this: Australian Government InquiriesReligious organisations (including the 2x2s) are being forced to raise their standards, which have been appalling with respect to child sexual abuse.
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Post by faune on Apr 1, 2014 15:10:15 GMT -5
Do the workers ever ask people why they left the meetings? I'm not exactly youthful however when we left in 2010 in our early 40's and took with us three kids ( 2 x teenagers). The silence and lack of interest from the workers was deafening. I requested a mtg with a worker I was related to and got on well with and he didn't want to discuss our reasons for leaving or even try and suggest we stay. The complete lack of interest in us then and until now has been nothing short of ....... Well to be honest just as I expected. Davenz ~ I got the same treatment, too, from workers and friends when I left back in April 1995. The "sound of silence" was deafening and spoke volumes as to how little they cared about my presence in meeting for the past 30 years of professing and attending meetings. Reminded me of that old expression, "Nothing lost (worth holding on to) and Nothing gained (from years of professing). I moved on a long time ago and have no regrets looking back to my professing days with the Truth fellowship. It also reminds me of that old song by Simeon and Garfunkel ~ "Sound of Silence."
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IjawyE9YII
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Post by jondough on Apr 1, 2014 16:17:59 GMT -5
System minded people are always "encouraged" by other system minded people. It makes them feel good about themselves and what they believe.
Someone that thinks wearing a bonnet is righteousness, is "encouraged" by other that are willing to wear a bonnet.
Hare Krishna's are encouraged by other Hare Krishna's - the ones that believe as they believe.
Buddhist are encouraged by other Buddhist.
The point is, just because you're encouraged by someones "meeting attendance" really isn't an indication of anything other than the fact that you are probably faithful yourself, and you believe that its an important part of your spiritual service.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 16:25:13 GMT -5
System minded people are always "encouraged" by other system minded people. It makes them feel good about themselves and what they believe. Someone that thinks wearing a bonnet is righteousness, is "encouraged" by other that are willing to wear a bonnet. Hare Krishna's are encouraged by other Hare Krishna's - the ones that believe as they believe. Buddhist are encouraged by other Buddhist. The point is, just because you're encouraged by someones "meeting attendance" really isn't an indication of anything other than the fact that you are probably faithful yourself, and you believe that its an important part of your spiritual service. All true. I think another way of saying it is that if you are encouraged by others' attendance, it may mean you are uncertain about the validity of your own attendance. "If he is showing up regularly, then it must be good that I am showing up regularly because I'm not really sure about it." I wonder how many organized weekly meetings or church services Jesus attended.......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 16:39:09 GMT -5
Citing CSA is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself in the Judgement. @@@@@@@@@ Bert, how DARE you call CSA and excuse.That is cruel and unfair to victis of CSA. Shame shame on you. I feel sorry for the victims who have to read some callous remarks. CSA is a sickness. It is NOT an "excuse" to do your own thing. You are throwing up a strawman argument. Large numbers of Catholics, for example, claim the reason they no longer attend Mass is because of the CSA issue. But in fact the CSA issue hasn't effected church attendance trend lines at all. If there was no CSA in the Catholic Church then the figures for declining attendance would be just the same, ie 30% decline since 1996 in Australia. This proves many lapsed Catholics are using CSA as an excuse.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 1, 2014 16:44:31 GMT -5
Bert, Are you saying the CSA problem in your church has NO effect on attendance? Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 16:45:27 GMT -5
Quote - "So those who attend church to be "seen of men" and warm up the pews are more encouraging to you than people who are devoting their lives to succour the needy in this world? What does "worshipping in spirit and in truth" really mean to you anyway?"
When these churches are sold off and you think the word "Protestant", for example, means street protesters or something - I don't think for one minute we are going to have a new generation of God fearing, spiritually contemplative and bible reading reading public.
Fact is newer generations are quite at home at seeing biblical themes like Russel Crowe in "Noah" where the word "God" isn't even BREATHED, and violence and the "filthy talk of the wicked" take center stage.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 16:49:23 GMT -5
Bert, Are you saying the CSA problem in your church has NO effect on attendance? Alvin I am saying that CSA has not been shown to effect church attendance trend lines. I have no graphs of the F&W to go by. But if you call up a graph of the Catholic Church (say) you can see a slow downward attendance dip which started long, long before any CSA issue - AND DID NOT ACCELERATE WITH THE CSA SCANDAL. (I would put some graphs here but can't be bothered figuring out how to embed graphics in this new ProBoard.)
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