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Post by jondough on Apr 2, 2014 19:35:26 GMT -5
Jesus first commandment was "love".
Wouldn't that be relevant?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 19:38:03 GMT -5
Contempt for authority can be a good thing. One advantage is that it makes it harder for authority figures to sexually abuse children. What do you think about the falling suicide rate Bert? STANDARDISED DEATH RATE (per 100,000 people) FROM SUICIDE 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Males 20.3 18.8 17.7 16.8 16.5 15.8 13.9 17.2 16 16.4 Females 5.3 5 4.7 4.3 4.3 4.7 4 4.7 4.8 4.8 Source: ABS Causes of Death, Australia (cat. no. 3303.0). Bert will have to decide if suicides are up as he states, or down. Australia is also indicating declining homicides while the population is rising, so the homicide rate is declining significantly:
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Post by xna on Apr 2, 2014 19:39:33 GMT -5
I see this forum has online support for ex-friends & ex-workers. I am new to this forum so I did a search on "The Clergy Project" and did not find any posts. If any are interested here is the link. www.clergyproject.org"The Clergy Project is a confidential online community for active and former professional clergy/religious leaders who do not hold supernatural beliefs. The Clergy Project launched on March 21st, 2011. Currently, the community's 556 plus members use it to support, network and discuss what it's like being an unbelieving professional in a religious community or being an unbeliever as ex-clergy in their world. The Clergy Project’s goal is to support members as they move beyond faith. Members freely discuss issues related to their transition from believer to unbeliever ... "
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 19:45:56 GMT -5
Australia:
Sexual assault: down 14% from its peak.
Robbery: down 50% from its peak.
Assault: down 33% from its peak.
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Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2014 19:58:11 GMT -5
Australia: Sexual assault: down 14% from its peak. Robbery: down 50% from its peak. Assault: down 33% from its peak. This should cheer Bert up somewhat. As authoritarian religion declines, so does the crime rate - and the suicide rate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 20:07:48 GMT -5
Australia: Sexual assault: down 14% from its peak. Robbery: down 50% from its peak. Assault: down 33% from its peak. This should cheer Bert up somewhat. As authoritarian religion declines, so does the crime rate - and the suicide rate. Church attendance down, meeting attendance down, crimes down, suicides down. How will Bert spin that one?
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Post by jondough on Apr 2, 2014 20:11:33 GMT -5
Here's the problem with the argument at hand;
If there was a kid - say 16 years old. Went to church every Sunday. Clean cut. Clean shaven. Never cursed. But was perhaps racist, and hated gay people.
Then one day, he realized he had been wrong for hating people for these reasons. He then became loving to them. But, in all this, he colors his hair purple and gets an ear ring.
I would guess that Bert's opinion would be that this guy has gone downhill quickly. Took a turn for the worst.
Sharon is right. Its what YOU see (or perceive).
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 20:29:07 GMT -5
Here's the problem with the argument at hand; If there was a kid - say 16 years old. Went to church every Sunday. Clean cut. Clean shaven. Never cursed. But was perhaps racist, and hated gay people. Then one day, he realized he had been wrong for hating people for these reasons. He then became loving to them. But, in all this, he colors his hair purple and gets an ear ring. I would guess that Bert's opinion would be that this guy has gone downhill quickly. Took a turn for the worst. Sharon is right. Its what YOU see (or perceive). This is kinda of good illustration that gets to the central truth. The question would be, do you see the love? Or do you see the purple hair and the earring? Bert?? Or does the purple hair and the earring preclude one's ability to love? Bert??
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Post by matisse on Apr 2, 2014 20:40:09 GMT -5
I see this forum has online support for ex-friends & ex-workers. I am new to this forum so I did a search on "The Clergy Project" and did not find any posts. If any are interested here is the link. www.clergyproject.org"The Clergy Project is a confidential online community for active and former professional clergy/religious leaders who do not hold supernatural beliefs. The Clergy Project launched on March 21st, 2011. Currently, the community's 556 plus members use it to support, network and discuss what it's like being an unbelieving professional in a religious community or being an unbeliever as ex-clergy in their world. The Clergy Project’s goal is to support members as they move beyond faith. Members freely discuss issues related to their transition from believer to unbeliever ... " Thanks for sharing this XNA. It looks like there are interesting resources available for people who are not ex-clergy as well.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 20:44:28 GMT -5
One more thing - pointing out the poverty of previous generations, or lack of contraception, or disease etc. misses the point we should be making. No it doesn't. The reduction in poverty and disease is not happenstance or just good luck. These are all indicators of a more orderly, clean society. This is what one of those kids, now about 70 years old said about her birth mother: "Then she shared her opinion of her birth mother. "She needs to be in hell," she wrote, "burning." " Ohhh, I may be a terrible person, but this made me laugh. Out loud. And then it occurred to me - our willingness to relinquish the 'myth' of hell (I think I noticed this on another thread) - might be a reflection of our world truly becoming a better place. (It's not that I don't believe in hell - like others, I have spent time there in this lifetime. As far as the afterlife is concerned, I don't even need to know, because I have learned how to escape it, here and now.) Clearday, do you have the link to this article?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 20:44:37 GMT -5
Quote - "If there was a kid - say 16 years old. Went to church every Sunday. Clean cut. Clean shaven. Never cursed. But was perhaps racist, and hated gay people."
This is a classic strawman argument. A nice clean cut and shaven (do you shave at 16?) church going boy needs to complete his resume by not being racist (because that's just plain silly) and caring for the homosexual guy - without supporting what he is, because that is not scriptural.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 20:55:19 GMT -5
Australia: Sexual assault: down 14% from its peak. Robbery: down 50% from its peak. Assault: down 33% from its peak. This should cheer Bert up somewhat. As authoritarian religion declines, so does the crime rate - and the suicide rate. Hmmm... clashing figures. Neither you nor I can prove it either way - I am sure "authoritarian religion" has little to do with it. Quite the contrary. Look at what happened in Mexico when young Catholic kids turned their backs on their traditions and joined the narcos - by way of extreme example.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 21:51:24 GMT -5
No it doesn't. The reduction in poverty and disease is not happenstance or just good luck. These are all indicators of a more orderly, clean society. This is what one of those kids, now about 70 years old said about her birth mother: "Then she shared her opinion of her birth mother. "She needs to be in hell," she wrote, "burning." " Ohhh, I may be a terrible person, but this made me laugh. Out loud. And then it occurred to me - our willingness to relinquish the 'myth' of hell (I think I noticed this on another thread) - might be a reflection of our world truly becoming a better place. (It's not that I don't believe in hell - like others, I have spent time there in this lifetime. As far as the afterlife is concerned, I don't even need to know, because I have learned how to escape it, here and now.) Clearday, do you have the link to this article? azstarnet.com/news/local/sold-as-kids-their-lives-now-converge/article_f4fe5e61-f226-5a63-96f9-270154a02545.htmlHere is a current pic of two of the kids who were sold:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 21:55:41 GMT -5
This should cheer Bert up somewhat. As authoritarian religion declines, so does the crime rate - and the suicide rate. Hmmm... clashing figures. Neither you nor I can prove it either way - I am sure "authoritarian religion" has little to do with it. Quite the contrary. Look at what happened in Mexico when young Catholic kids turned their backs on their traditions and joined the narcos - by way of extreme example. Bert, you were correlating declining church attendance to all sorts of bad things happening. Now when you see the hard statistics, not just for small areas of Australia but country-wide hard, reported numbers (this is not a survey, these are actual registered numbers), you cannot fathom a correlation. We all would like to have it both ways, but life usually doesn't work that way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 22:06:49 GMT -5
I have tried to provide sources for my figures. A huge amount of my early stats had no references at all. For any figure you provide we would have to look at sources and figure out why there appear to be discrepencies.
But yes, I maintain that the decline in religion has led to a decline in RELIGION-BASED MORALITY.
There are other moralities. Some say Japanese whaling is "immoral" but that isn't bible based morals.
So, in the end, it all comes down to whether you accept a bible-based morality or a secular fashion style morality, based upon current public perceptions.
And it then all comes down to whether you believe the bible means what it says.
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Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2014 22:27:44 GMT -5
The Bible is interpreted in many different ways, so how do you pin down what you refer to as Bible morality? Take a look at this: Biblical morality?My biblical morality is expressed below, and I suspect that the world is in a better place now than most periods of human history when measured in this way.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 22:35:40 GMT -5
What a story. And how poignant that it was the daughter dying of lung disease and too sick to talk who had this to communicate about her birth mother: "She needs to be in hell," she wrote, "burning." Wow. I think she meant it. (This is one of those moments in my life where I feel like I know nothing, hove experienced nothing.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 22:45:53 GMT -5
I have tried to provide sources for my figures. A huge amount of my early stats had no references at all. For any figure you provide we would have to look at sources and figure out why there appear to be discrepencies. But yes, I maintain that the decline in religion has led to a decline in RELIGION-BASED MORALITY. There are other moralities. Some say Japanese whaling is "immoral" but that isn't bible based morals. So, in the end, it all comes down to whether you accept a bible-based morality or a secular fashion style morality, based upon current public perceptions. And it then all comes down to whether you believe the bible means what it says. I am quoting nationwide Australian federal government hard numbers. That's the gold standard. Your numbers were very narrowly defined small territories. Frankly, I will go with the national statistics for a better idea of what is going on in Australia. I provided FBI US national numbers which also indicate the same trends. The only real difference is that the declines in the US began earlier than in Oz. Whoa, this is the first time I have heard that this discussion is about "religion based morality" vs "secular fashion style morality", whatever that is. I thought the discussion was about whether the world was getting better or worse. That changes the whole discussion and none of these statistics are relevant whatsoever until someone defines just what "religion based morality" vs "secular fashion style morality" really means to start with. I suppose if one's argument starts to crumble, the next best alternative is to redefine the argument! Really Bert, don't let the Two and a Half Men TV show control your view of what is really going on in the world. It's fictional hyperbolic comedy....I guarantee that Two and a Half Men does not accurately depict the world.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 22:47:27 GMT -5
What a story. And how poignant that it was the daughter dying of lung disease and too sick to talk who had this to communicate about her birth mother: "She needs to be in hell," she wrote, "burning." Wow. I think she meant it. (This is one of those moments in my life where I feel like I know nothing, hove experienced nothing.) There is no doubt that this comment came from the depth of her soul. It's not really a comment on her beliefs, it is a window to her soul and the damage that her mother caused.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 23:56:34 GMT -5
Quote - "Galatians 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
The above is PART of "religious morality", (the bold is the final arbiter on the matter.) We could obey all the above, as the rich man who came to Jesus did, and still not inherit God's Kingdom.
The bold text is the warning which helped, or can help, to focus people's mind upon morality. The whole notion of God provides the philosophical framework for PURPOSE, and NOTIONS OF RIGHT AND WRONG. Without purpose, any respect for right or wrong, or even fear of God, then morality can easily become superfluous. As it is fast becoming in Western society.
And I put it to you that what Paul wrote, ie "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like"
can easily be shoe-horned into one session of The Bold And the Beautiful, or Sex In The City or The Young And The Restless.
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 5:28:23 GMT -5
TV caters to a lot of different tastes.
Two and a Half Men, The Bold And the Beautiful, Sex In The City and The Young And The Restless are not programs that I watch.
Why don't you watch programs that will be better for you Bert?
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Post by ellie on Apr 3, 2014 5:29:50 GMT -5
Strange that some parents might "vote with their feet" in leaving the churches due to CSA. And then happily expose those same children to an increasingly violent, adulterous and drug addled culture. By way of example. Some might say that CSA scandals in the Boy Scouts have led to a drop in attendance. But as a former Boy Scout I can see full well that the scout movement's decline has nothing to do with CSA and a lot to do with not being "cool" anymore. I don't think the Boy Scouts "coolness" factor has changed at all from when I was a kid. I'm not arguing that attendance is or is not affected by the CSA exposure. I have my own reasons why I think this is, but thats not important, and would make for too long of a post. There are many factors for drop in attendance in our fellowship....CSA being one little tiny - probably an un-measurable one by itself. I believe that if there is any single source to point at, it would be simply the internet....Or could we say "the Information Age". I can give many examples of why I think this is. One of them is not CSA, but simply the awareness that CSA exist. CSA was much more prevalent amongst F&W 30 - 40 years ago than it is today. This was a time when the fellowship was growing quite substantially. It is the "awareness" factor that have really caused many to leave. The majority that choose to stay are pretty much of the mind that they don't want to know many things. My wife is one of them. She doesn't want to know many of the negatives within our fellowship...she says that it only discourages her. Our kids are different. They were raised digging out their own information from all sources available. They are not afraid of information, and being aware. They have been raised and taught to do this, and to use their own critical thinking. We have raised them NOT to believe something just because someone told them it was so....."Google" is a verb now. Kids "google" everything. "Information" This is why many are leaving. I'm not a kid but I google everything. I have a saying in the workplace "google is your friend". I grew up in a professing home and when I professed I googled the meetings. I remember finding something on Irvine and among other things, the 'black stocking rebellion', which made me laugh even though i was angry. What really disappointed me was not the information on the internet but the sad lack of information provided by professing family or workers. The anger was never about the information, as JD said we are not afraid of information, and I'll add even negative information. The anger was always because information was withheld. Now I'm at the point in life of wanting clear and easy to understand information about christian doctrine and also religion and spirituality. I don't want a set of wishy washy ideas or the cognitive dissonance that I currently experience. I want to know why and what I believe, and how that fits with scripture. I want to know where my beliefs are logically flawed. I want to know how they fit with and how they differ from other beliefs. In this journey I would absolutely love it if one of the workers took the time to to and sit down and explain some doctrine directly from the bible perhaps with a group of interested people. They would need to be prepared for questions on the spot and to follow up questions that may arise later. I want to see workers encourage young and older people to test and examine all things and be willing to be free with information. They also must be prepared to admit they don't know the answers to some things. It should not be expected that the friends all agree on everything. What I do not want to hear is 'bashing of other churches or religions' or ridiculous analogies or focus on things such as dress and outward appearance. Those kind of approaches scream of avoiding doctrine. The longer workers continue to avoid difficult topics, refuse to answer questions, appear inaccessible and fail to have a bible backed clarity to their teaching the more young people they will lose to other sources of more readily available information. (In the unlikely event there are any workers reading this, we are hungry and we are starving for want of sound doctrinal teachings)
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Post by ellie on Apr 3, 2014 5:31:12 GMT -5
I have tried to provide sources for my figures. A huge amount of my early stats had no references at all. For any figure you provide we would have to look at sources and figure out why there appear to be discrepencies. But yes, I maintain that the decline in religion has led to a decline in RELIGION-BASED MORALITY. There are other moralities. Some say Japanese whaling is "immoral" but that isn't bible based morals. So, in the end, it all comes down to whether you accept a bible-based morality or a secular fashion style morality, based upon current public perceptions. And it then all comes down to whether you believe the bible means what it says. Good to see some sources so that we can assess their credibility. If you are interested in stats I would highly recommend looking at data published by the ABS. There is plenty of free data and a couple of great products like the community profiles and the table builder which are accessible from the census home page.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 6:45:15 GMT -5
TV caters to a lot of different tastes. Two and a Half Men, The Bold And the Beautiful, Sex In The City and The Young And The Restless are not programs that I watch. Why don't you watch programs that will be better for you Bert? The problem with using TV programs like Two and a Half Men, The Bold And the Beautiful, Sex In The City and The Young And The Restless to inform oneself about the state of the world is that it will leave anyone with a distorted and twisted view of the world. These are fictional caricatures of the world, none of which are intended to portray real life....quite the opposite really. Almost all viewers understand that. Shows like that are intended to be very different from real life in order to create interest because otherwise no one would watch them. Even most "reality" shows have staged elements to them. Bert would be better off to turn his dial to the History Channel, the Discovery Channel and the National Geographic Channel for reality and factual information. Supplement that with a subscription to The Economist to read real facts about the world and we can all have an informed discussion about the status of the world, not the status of the characters of Sex in the City.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 8:03:51 GMT -5
I don't think the Boy Scouts "coolness" factor has changed at all from when I was a kid. I'm not arguing that attendance is or is not affected by the CSA exposure. I have my own reasons why I think this is, but thats not important, and would make for too long of a post. There are many factors for drop in attendance in our fellowship....CSA being one little tiny - probably an un-measurable one by itself. I believe that if there is any single source to point at, it would be simply the internet....Or could we say "the Information Age". I can give many examples of why I think this is. One of them is not CSA, but simply the awareness that CSA exist. CSA was much more prevalent amongst F&W 30 - 40 years ago than it is today. This was a time when the fellowship was growing quite substantially. It is the "awareness" factor that have really caused many to leave. The majority that choose to stay are pretty much of the mind that they don't want to know many things. My wife is one of them. She doesn't want to know many of the negatives within our fellowship...she says that it only discourages her. Our kids are different. They were raised digging out their own information from all sources available. They are not afraid of information, and being aware. They have been raised and taught to do this, and to use their own critical thinking. We have raised them NOT to believe something just because someone told them it was so....."Google" is a verb now. Kids "google" everything. "Information" This is why many are leaving. I'm not a kid but I google everything. I have a saying in the workplace "google is your friend". I grew up in a professing home and when I professed I googled the meetings. I remember finding something on Irvine and among other things, the 'black stocking rebellion', which made me laugh even though i was angry. What really disappointed me was not the information on the internet but the sad lack of information provided by professing family or workers. The anger was never about the information, as JD said we are not afraid of information, and I'll add even negative information. The anger was always because information was withheld. Now I'm at the point in life of wanting clear and easy to understand information about christian doctrine and also religion and spirituality. I don't want a set of wishy washy ideas or the cognitive dissonance that I currently experience. I want to know why and what I believe, and how that fits with scripture. I want to know where my beliefs are logically flawed. I want to know how they fit with and how they differ from other beliefs. In this journey I would absolutely love it if one of the workers took the time to to and sit down and explain some doctrine directly from the bible perhaps with a group of interested people. They would need to be prepared for questions on the spot and to follow up questions that may arise later. I want to see workers encourage young and older people to test and examine all things and be willing to be free with information. They also must be prepared to admit they don't know the answers to some things. It should not be expected that the friends all agree on everything. What I do not want to hear is 'bashing of other churches or religions' or ridiculous analogies or focus on things such as dress and outward appearance. Those kind of approaches scream of avoiding doctrine. The longer workers continue to avoid difficult topics, refuse to answer questions, appear inaccessible and fail to have a bible backed clarity to their teaching the more young people they will lose to other sources of more readily available information. (In the unlikely event there are any workers reading this, we are hungry and we are starving for want of sound doctrinal teachings) This is a great post because it is insightfully prescriptive for how workers can not only retain more young people, but also attract new ones.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 3, 2014 8:35:53 GMT -5
I don't think the Boy Scouts "coolness" factor has changed at all from when I was a kid. I'm not arguing that attendance is or is not affected by the CSA exposure. I have my own reasons why I think this is, but thats not important, and would make for too long of a post. There are many factors for drop in attendance in our fellowship....CSA being one little tiny - probably an un-measurable one by itself. I believe that if there is any single source to point at, it would be simply the internet....Or could we say "the Information Age". I can give many examples of why I think this is. One of them is not CSA, but simply the awareness that CSA exist. CSA was much more prevalent amongst F&W 30 - 40 years ago than it is today. This was a time when the fellowship was growing quite substantially. It is the "awareness" factor that have really caused many to leave. The majority that choose to stay are pretty much of the mind that they don't want to know many things. My wife is one of them. She doesn't want to know many of the negatives within our fellowship...she says that it only discourages her. Our kids are different. They were raised digging out their own information from all sources available. They are not afraid of information, and being aware. They have been raised and taught to do this, and to use their own critical thinking. We have raised them NOT to believe something just because someone told them it was so....."Google" is a verb now. Kids "google" everything. "Information" This is why many are leaving. I'm not a kid but I google everything. I have a saying in the workplace "google is your friend". I grew up in a professing home and when I professed I googled the meetings. I remember finding something on Irvine and among other things, the 'black stocking rebellion', which made me laugh even though i was angry. What really disappointed me was not the information on the internet but the sad lack of information provided by professing family or workers. The anger was never about the information, as JD said we are not afraid of information, and I'll add even negative information. The anger was always because information was withheld. Now I'm at the point in life of wanting clear and easy to understand information about christian doctrine and also religion and spirituality. I don't want a set of wishy washy ideas or the cognitive dissonance that I currently experience. I want to know why and what I believe, and how that fits with scripture. I want to know where my beliefs are logically flawed. I want to know how they fit with and how they differ from other beliefs. In this journey I would absolutely love it if one of the workers took the time to to and sit down and explain some doctrine directly from the bible perhaps with a group of interested people. They would need to be prepared for questions on the spot and to follow up questions that may arise later. I want to see workers encourage young and older people to test and examine all things and be willing to be free with information. They also must be prepared to admit they don't know the answers to some things. It should not be expected that the friends all agree on everything. What I do not want to hear is 'bashing of other churches or religions' or ridiculous analogies or focus on things such as dress and outward appearance. Those kind of approaches scream of avoiding doctrine. The longer workers continue to avoid difficult topics, refuse to answer questions, appear inaccessible and fail to have a bible backed clarity to their teaching the more young people they will lose to other sources of more readily available information. (In the unlikely event there are any workers reading this, we are hungry and we are starving for want of sound doctrinal teachings) Ellie, Thanks for your insightful post. It is encouraging to read of young people's "hungering and thirsting for righteousness". Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 8:57:51 GMT -5
I'm not a kid but I google everything. I have a saying in the workplace "google is your friend". I grew up in a professing home and when I professed I googled the meetings. I remember finding something on Irvine and among other things, the 'black stocking rebellion', which made me laugh even though i was angry. What really disappointed me was not the information on the internet but the sad lack of information provided by professing family or workers. The anger was never about the information, as JD said we are not afraid of information, and I'll add even negative information. The anger was always because information was withheld. Now I'm at the point in life of wanting clear and easy to understand information about christian doctrine and also religion and spirituality. I don't want a set of wishy washy ideas or the cognitive dissonance that I currently experience. I want to know why and what I believe, and how that fits with scripture. I want to know where my beliefs are logically flawed. I want to know how they fit with and how they differ from other beliefs. In this journey I would absolutely love it if one of the workers took the time to to and sit down and explain some doctrine directly from the bible perhaps with a group of interested people. They would need to be prepared for questions on the spot and to follow up questions that may arise later. I want to see workers encourage young and older people to test and examine all things and be willing to be free with information. They also must be prepared to admit they don't know the answers to some things. It should not be expected that the friends all agree on everything. What I do not want to hear is 'bashing of other churches or religions' or ridiculous analogies or focus on things such as dress and outward appearance. Those kind of approaches scream of avoiding doctrine. The longer workers continue to avoid difficult topics, refuse to answer questions, appear inaccessible and fail to have a bible backed clarity to their teaching the more young people they will lose to other sources of more readily available information. (In the unlikely event there are any workers reading this, we are hungry and we are starving for want of sound doctrinal teachings) Ellie, Thanks for your insightful post. It is encouraging to read of young people's "hungering and thirsting for righteousness". Alvin Amen to that Alvin.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 9:51:35 GMT -5
Here's evidence of a trend, it's not fantasy TV, probably illustrates what Bert is talking about, and for which there are no statistics. It is an interesting review of university professor William C Harris's book "Slouching Towards Gaytheism: Christianity and happy Survival in America." : Click -->> A New Breed of Breeder
Why should any human being struggle to accommodate new ideas like Harris's? The rest of us need to accept incestuous overtones as trangressive, exciting, and liberating?? If we don't we are oppressing him and those of his ilk and denying them their civil rights?? Science and biology alone completely refudiate bizarre and horrific ideas like Harris's.
Some comments on the article "A New Breed of Breeder";
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