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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2014 23:11:10 GMT -5
The reason I say that is because you seem more sure of the infallibility of many of your beliefs than popes have been. I see. I tend not to express anything that can't be confirmed in written teaching. And generally include the references. Yes, I know. But the written teaching has changed so frequently in the last two millennia that we now have conflicting infallible truths. Popes know that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2014 23:17:58 GMT -5
The reason I say that is because you seem more sure of the infallibility of many of your beliefs than popes have been. I see. I tend not to express anything that can't be confirmed in written teaching. And generally include the references. I responded to the 'beliefs' but just now noticed the 'infallibility' ... The pope’s infallibility in his extraordinary magisterium (teaching role) has been used only once since 1870 www.americancatholic.org/messenger/aug2004/Wiseman.asp That period of time is not real problem. The church's concept of God has changed from the beginning, according to Pope Benedict.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2014 23:20:43 GMT -5
Bob, here's one reference to Jesus I mentioned last month "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his."
Gen 49:10 ca 2000 BC. from Judah came Jesus. from Judah came the Israelite monarchy who guarded the Law. as part of a nation which then didn't exist. And the monarchy, law (and nation?) would last until the coming of the Messiah. And then the end of monarchy and the Law. And the Messiah - in whom the whole world would be gathered (or obey) Another favorite text of mine says the Messiah is one "whom the Gentiles trust." Says too that in the end only two tribes would exist - Ephraim and Mannesa - the religious and secular Jews, ones who were not really a part of the twelve. THIS IS POWERFUL STUFF. IT WASN'T WRITTEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD. And Genesis wasn't written in 2000 BC
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2014 23:21:55 GMT -5
Quote - " I don't believe in eternal torment..."
Did Jesus? Hard to say for sure but I tend to impute qualities to him that I think he should have. As have all theologians through time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 0:14:12 GMT -5
Quote - "And Genesis wasn't written in 2000 BC"
We simply don't know. Our form of the Torah could have been written somewhere from 1800-1500 BC, but obviously referring to more ancient sources, ie the genealogies.
There are miracles in the bible which we can take or leave. But some of these prophecies are miracles we cannot deny.
I do find it interesting what the bible has to say about our own age: that the churches will fall (which didn't exist in Book of Revelation time) that moral standards will fall (when they appeared to be improving) that the Jews will take Jerusalem back with the sword (when they already possessed it.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 0:28:25 GMT -5
Quote - "Quote - "I don't believe in eternal torment..." Did Jesus?
Reply 1 - "Hard to say for sure but I tend to impute qualities to him that I think he should have."
Reply 2 - "As have all theologians through time."
By way of Example. All theologians love the images of Jesus with children, baby Jesus in the arms of his Mother.
but
Jesus also warned the Jews that the Roman would come and destroy their nation, and their children and suckling mothers. And to the false preacher Jezebel, Jesus said he would kill her children with pestilence.
Theologians don't like that. What to do?
They didn't write the bible They find it hard to redact the bible.
So they, like we today, just ignore what seems offensive. Thus I am happy to accept the bible hasn't been too tampered with.
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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 0:35:09 GMT -5
Quote - "YES. It is funny that Jesus is only recorded making such a prediction AFTER the destruction had occurred."
Yes, and its funny how so many Christians heeded Jesus' warnings and escaped Roman destruction, like, long after the Roman destruction. And funny how Jacob, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel etc also spoke of the destruction of Israel AFTER THE MESSIAH HAS COME. Bert ~ Did I miss something while off the Board? Where did all this come and why are you, of all people, quoting it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 1:46:14 GMT -5
The question is not clear, sorry.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 4:25:51 GMT -5
Quote - "And Genesis wasn't written in 2000 BC" We simply don't know. Our form of the Torah could have been written somewhere from 1800-1500 BC, but obviously referring to more ancient sources, ie the genealogies. What do you mean, we don't know? We know of a certainty that it was not written in 2000 BC -- what makes you think no one else knows it was not written then? You're not an authority on these dates. Some people are so dumb that they think Moses wrote about his own demise -- and some apologist will be thinking by what kind of Superman magic it could have happened.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2014 10:38:16 GMT -5
Quote - "And Genesis wasn't written in 2000 BC" We simply don't know. Our form of the Torah could have been written somewhere from 1800-1500 BC, but obviously referring to more ancient sources, ie the genealogies. There are miracles in the bible which we can take or leave. But some of these prophecies are miracles we cannot deny. I do find it interesting what the bible has to say about our own age: that the churches will fall (which didn't exist in Book of Revelation time) that moral standards will fall (when they appeared to be improving) that the Jews will take Jerusalem back with the sword (when they already possessed it.) www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 12:24:47 GMT -5
Snow ~ The introduction to that book deserves to be shown in its entirety. It definitely brings up a lot of questions that people do need answers to today to adequately examine the Bible against the back-drop of ancient history itself.
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 12:29:38 GMT -5
Quote - "And Genesis wasn't written in 2000 BC" We simply don't know. Our form of the Torah could have been written somewhere from 1800-1500 BC, but obviously referring to more ancient sources, ie the genealogies. What do you mean, we don't know? We know of a certainty that it was not written in 2000 BC -- what makes you think no one else knows it was not written then? You're not an authority on these dates. Some people are so dumb that they think Moses wrote about his own demise -- and some apologist will be thinking by what kind of Superman magic it could have happened. Joshua could have easily picked up where moses left off...
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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 12:33:25 GMT -5
Quote - "YES. It is funny that Jesus is only recorded making such a prediction AFTER the destruction had occurred."
Yes, and its funny how so many Christians heeded Jesus' warnings and escaped Roman destruction, like, long after the Roman destruction. And funny how Jacob, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel etc also spoke of the destruction of Israel AFTER THE MESSIAH HAS COME. Bert ~ You failed to comment here? Do you have something you would like to comment in relation to this person's post? It kind of left me hanging for something more from you on this subject?
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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 12:40:49 GMT -5
Quote - "And Genesis wasn't written in 2000 BC" We simply don't know. Our form of the Torah could have been written somewhere from 1800-1500 BC, but obviously referring to more ancient sources, ie the genealogies. What do you mean, we don't know? We know of a certainty that it was not written in 2000 BC -- what makes you think no one else knows it was not written then? You're not an authority on these dates. Some people are so dumb that they think Moses wrote about his own demise -- and some apologist will be thinking by what kind of Superman magic it could have happened. Bob ~ Did you deliberately leave the story of Noah and the world-wide flood out of this picture, too? After all, there has to be something from archeology evidence to suggest this story actually did take place, don't you think? There's even been some claims of an ark resembling Noah's design found on Mt. Ararat in the past, I believe? Unless, it was a flooding of a particular area that people considered as their whole world suffering this great deluge?
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Post by xna on Apr 3, 2014 13:12:28 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2014 13:20:28 GMT -5
If there was a flood it was regional and it happened around the time of the Sumerian culture not the Hebrew. It is just another story they took and gave it their own little twist and called it Hebrew history. Written while in captivity in Babylon.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 13:20:45 GMT -5
What do you mean, we don't know? We know of a certainty that it was not written in 2000 BC -- what makes you think no one else knows it was not written then? You're not an authority on these dates. Some people are so dumb that they think Moses wrote about his own demise -- and some apologist will be thinking by what kind of Superman magic it could have happened. Joshua could have easily picked up where moses left off... HAHAHAHA - I just knew it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 13:25:34 GMT -5
What do you mean, we don't know? We know of a certainty that it was not written in 2000 BC -- what makes you think no one else knows it was not written then? You're not an authority on these dates. Some people are so dumb that they think Moses wrote about his own demise -- and some apologist will be thinking by what kind of Superman magic it could have happened. Bob ~ Did you deliberately leave the story of Noah and the world-wide flood out of this picture, too? After all, there has to be something from archeology evidence to suggest this story actually did take place, don't you think? There's even been some claims of an ark resembling Noah's design found on Mt. Ararat in the past, I believe? Unless, it was a flooding of a particular area that people considered as their whole world suffering this great deluge? Oh yes -- I've heard that one too. Here's how it worked. Up until Moses time the surface (crust) of the earth was actually separated from the core of the earth by a concealed layer of ocean. Then there came a great burst in the crust and the lower ocean burst skywards causing torrential rains for 40 days and 40 nights, and it was quite a while before the crust could settle down into its new location and the added water on the surface could find its way to the present oceans, etc. Ain't that neat???
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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 14:12:06 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Thanks for your last post explaining what happened. I never knew about what brought about this colossal flood until now. Also, I discovered where I got the 150 days relating to the ark in my mind and mistakenly thought they were only 150 days on the ark, which usually comes out to be 365 days when you take everything into consideration. (Check my movie thread about Noah's ark.)
Nathan, have you ever read "The 12th Planet" by Zecharia Sitchen dealing with the Somalian legends
Here's an e-book on line that might interest you, if you haven't checked it out before.
vimeo.com/81996467
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 3, 2014 14:48:42 GMT -5
Bob, here's one reference to Jesus I mentioned last month "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his."
Gen 49:10 ca 2000 BC. from Judah came Jesus. from Judah came the Israelite monarchy who guarded the Law. as part of a nation which then didn't exist. And the monarchy, law (and nation?) would last until the coming of the Messiah. And then the end of monarchy and the Law. And the Messiah - in whom the whole world would be gathered (or obey) Another favorite text of mine says the Messiah is one "whom the Gentiles trust." Says too that in the end only two tribes would exist - Ephraim and Mannesa - the religious and secular Jews, ones who were not really a part of the twelve. THIS IS POWERFUL STUFF. IT WASN'T WRITTEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD. NO, IT WASN'T WRITTEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD. but it was interpreted by the writers in the FIRST CENTURY AD and fitted it into their story. It was the concept that they wanted people to understand.
The writers as well THE PEOPLE reading it, understood that it was a concept and didn't have to be HISTORICALLY correct!
What so many people today don't understand is that the gospels written in the FIRST CENTURY AD wasn't even expected to be HISTORICALLY correct!
Both the writers & those that heard the stories knew that!
No one was lying or being lied to!
It is only that people understanding how history is written today, believe those tomes written in FIRST CENTURY AD were written as actual events of history.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 3, 2014 14:53:36 GMT -5
What so many people today don't understand is that the gospels written in the FIRST CENTURY AD wasn't even expected to be HISTORICALLY correct! What so many people today don't realize is that Jesus said he would build a church, Mt 16 - he did - he left that church as the arbiter of truth, Jn 16:13 & 1 Tim 3:15 - he promised to be with that church always - to the end of the age, Mt 28:20 - so that people of ALL ages could know the truth, the verity of the gospels, through the valid successors of his appointed Apostles - the witnesses of the Resurrection, Acts 1:20.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 3, 2014 14:55:45 GMT -5
Quote - " I don't believe in eternal torment..."
Did Jesus? Hard to say for sure but I tend to impute qualities to him that I think he should have. Isn't this what most Christians do; impute qualities to Jesus that they think Jesus should have?
Isn't this one of the reasons that there so many thousands of Christian denominations in the worlds today?
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Post by xna on Apr 3, 2014 15:00:54 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 3, 2014 15:11:56 GMT -5
What so many people today don't understand is that the gospels written in the FIRST CENTURY AD wasn't even expected to be HISTORICALLY correct! What so many people today don't realize is that Jesus said he would build a church - he did - he left that church as the arbiter of truth - he promised to be with that church always - to the end of the age - so that people of ALL ages could know the truth, the verity of the gospels. Isn't that part of what I just said, the writers FIRST CENTURY AD using what Jesus was supposed to have said, wrote it a concept & not historically correct document?
Both writers & those reading it knew that it wasn't even supposed to be a historically correct document.
Jesus never built any church.
The so-called early "church fathers" built the church out of what the writers of the FIRST CENTURY AD wrote as a concept & not a history, yet, those "church fathers" treated it like it was historically correct.
It was those "church fathers", NOT Jesus, who built the church that you now believe in, The Catholic Church.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 3, 2014 15:27:40 GMT -5
What so many people today don't realize is that Jesus said he would build a church - he did - he left that church as the arbiter of truth - he promised to be with that church always - to the end of the age - so that people of ALL ages could know the truth, the verity of the gospels. Isn't that part of what I just said, the writers FIRST CENTURY AD using what Jesus was supposed to have said, wrote it a concept & not historically correct document?
Both writers & those reading it knew that it wasn't even supposed to be a historically correct document.
Jesus never built any church.
The so-called early "church fathers" built the church out of what the writers of the FIRST CENTURY AD wrote as a concept & not a history, yet, those "church fathers" treated it like it was historically correct.
It was those "church fathers", NOT Jesus, who built the church that you now believe in, The Catholic Church.
Well here's the deal, dmich. There's too much history oral and written that corroborates the truth of the gospels over the course of 2000 years. I can understand you not wanting to believe it - from your chosen perspective - as that would require a different focus for you. However, that doesn't change history.
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 15:29:12 GMT -5
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1I noticed that the man who was saved had offered his virgin daughters to appease the mob. Anyway, did you know that it was the custom in ancient redneck towns that the men would rape anyone (normally men) who wandered into town unannounced? Do you think that Jude was unaware that the OT spells out exactly what sins Sodom was guilty of having committed? I don't remember sexual escapades being in that list.
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 15:32:26 GMT -5
I believe the soul of mankind has a destiny. You can board that train or buck it, but it won't be stopping for you. Depending on how you want to define soul, I probably believe the same thing. We are all on that train and when we reach the end of the line the electrochemical processes in our brains will stop stopand all conscientiousness as we know it will be over. Just like before we were born. Could be thought of as nirvana.
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frum
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Post by frum on Apr 3, 2014 16:02:58 GMT -5
Since 1947 numbers of sighting, millions of abductions, and people with missing time has grown greatly. They are impregnating the women and creating a race of hybrids----Nephilim! Children of the fallen ones AGAIN.
Sorry, me thinks you write fiction. Yes, people go missing, yes people see things that they can't explain, but there is no evidence ever of ANY supernatural agent. If you can show what you say to be true, then you will be the first to win $1,000,000 from James Randy. www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/1239-mdc-changes.html As for half men half alien among us - show me one. I will pay for the DNA test. If confirmed true, it will be the 2014 world news story of the year.
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