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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 16:03:51 GMT -5
What so many people today don't realize is that Jesus said he would build a church - he did - he left that church as the arbiter of truth - he promised to be with that church always - to the end of the age - so that people of ALL ages could know the truth, the verity of the gospels.
Both writers & those reading it knew that it wasn't even supposed to be a historically correct document.
Jesus never built any church.
The so-called early "church fathers" built the church out of what the writers of the FIRST CENTURY AD wrote as a concept & not a history, yet, those "church fathers" treated it like it was historically correct.
It was those "church fathers", NOT Jesus, who built the church that you now believe in, The Catholic Church.
Dmmichgood ~ Perhaps this also had to do with the ECF's having all the writings of the Gnostics they could find from the first century destroyed before they started the construction of the Bible we read today?  I have to admit, from my study of the historical back-drop to Christianity and the historical Jesus, there is a lot of "empty spaces" with little historical evidence to back them up?
From what I have read, I do believe that Jesus was claimed to be one of the Messiahs that arose during this time in history of Roman occupation and also that he was crucified. However, when you try to find any pertinent evidence as to his many miracles and teachings, there's very little recorded evidence from secular sources at this time. Since the Romans were great at keeping history records up to date, this sounds a little confusing to me that somebody who changed history so drastically has so little recorded about his exploits in Roman archives? This article below seems to cover this topic quite thoroughly as far as to what evidence of record for Jesus we do have from the first century.
rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ
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Post by StAnne on Apr 3, 2014 16:16:41 GMT -5
Do you think that Jude was unaware that the OT spells out exactly what sins Sodom was guilty of having committed? I don't remember sexual escapades being in that list. rational - would you pls, pls, pls ...fix the quote in your earlier post - some of Bob's quote is (wrongly) attributed to me. Thnx!! professing.proboards.com/post/581877/threadAnd then when I can, I'll delete this post. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 16:27:04 GMT -5
It makes the same amount of sense as saying God doesn't exist - when He is all around us in His Creation. And in having the historical record of Christ coming to earth in the flesh - and Resurrection. Yet, some say they don't believe in Him or in his promises to us. This is a really bad bunch of logic. Your belief in atheists does not determine whether or not they exist. As living beings, self professed, it can be proven that they exist. As with the argument Matisse presented, christians (self professed) can be proven to exist. Now, switching to your argument comparing atheists to a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, paranormal being - do you have any proof of a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, paranormal being? Simply stating that such a being is all around in the creation doesn't mean much when the creation has possible of origins that are more verifiable. And a single source historical record created and maintained by the group promoting the existence of such a being has all the validity of a book written by Joseph Smith verifying existence of the golden plates and the Urim and Thummim. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 16:30:33 GMT -5
Quote - " I don't believe in eternal torment..."
Did Jesus? Hard to say for sure but I tend to impute qualities to him that I think he should have. Kind of a DIY religion. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 16:34:38 GMT -5
Oh yes -- I've heard that one too. Here's how it worked. Up until Moses time the surface (crust) of the earth was actually separated from the core of the earth by a concealed layer of ocean. Then there came a great burst in the crust and the lower ocean burst skywards causing torrential rains for 40 days and 40 nights, and it was quite a while before the crust could settle down into its new location and the added water on the surface could find its way to the present oceans, etc. Ain't that neat??? Quite a lot of the water came from the reptilians pumping the water out of the tunnel network they have built. |
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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 16:38:54 GMT -5
Oh yes -- I've heard that one too. Here's how it worked. Up until Moses time the surface (crust) of the earth was actually separated from the core of the earth by a concealed layer of ocean. Then there came a great burst in the crust and the lower ocean burst skywards causing torrential rains for 40 days and 40 nights, and it was quite a while before the crust could settle down into its new location and the added water on the surface could find its way to the present oceans, etc. Ain't that neat??? Quite a lot of the water came from the reptilians pumping the water out of the tunnel network they have built. Do you think any of those "reptilians" survived the flood due to these underground tunnels and reappeared in our time? There seems to be a lot on You-tube about these people with the strange eye slits, even among many of our leaders today ~ including the two Bushes and Obama. By the way, the music on some of these videos gives me the creeps, but here's a good one regarding the "reptilian shape-shifting bloodline of the Illuminati disguised in government leaders over the past decades. 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt-_iSvCRJ0
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Post by StAnne on Apr 3, 2014 16:41:32 GMT -5
It makes the same amount of sense as saying God doesn't exist - when He is all around us in His Creation. And in having the historical record of Christ coming to earth in the flesh - and Resurrection. Yet, some say they don't believe in Him or in his promises to us. Your belief in atheists does not determine whether or not they exist. Ah. You would be referring to my non-belief in atheists. The same as a person saying God doesn't exist does not determine whether God exists. Jesus, the Christ, God who took on human flesh, existed and exists. |
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Post by faune on Apr 3, 2014 16:50:27 GMT -5
Your belief in atheists does not determine whether or not they exist. Ah. You would be referring to my non-belief in atheists. The same as a person saying God doesn't exist does not determine whether God exists. Jesus, the Christ, God who took on human flesh, existed and exists. This is one humorous exchange on this Board, I must admit!  |
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 3, 2014 17:07:08 GMT -5
Isn't that part of what I just said, the writers FIRST CENTURY AD using what Jesus was supposed to have said, wrote it a concept & not historically correct document?
Both writers & those reading it knew that it wasn't even supposed to be a historically correct document.
Jesus never built any church.
The so-called early "church fathers" built the church out of what the writers of the FIRST CENTURY AD wrote as a concept & not a history, yet, those "church fathers" treated it like it was historically correct.
It was those "church fathers", NOT Jesus, who built the church that you now believe in, The Catholic Church.
Well here's the deal, dmich. There's too much history oral and written that corroborates the truth of the gospels over the course of 2000 years. I can understand you not wanting to believe it - from your chosen perspective - as that would require a different focus for you. However, that doesn't change history.
That it has nothing to do with my supposed "chosen" perspective or whether I, personally, want to "believe" something or not.
My point is the way people understand the method by which history is written today compared to how history was written the days of that FIRST CENTURY AD.
They understood the writings of the gospels for what they were, -stories, not actual history.
from wiki:
Herodotus was as ancient Greek historian who was the first historian who was known "to collect his materials systematically, test their accuracy to a certain extent, and arrange them in a well-constructed and vivid narrative."
"The Histories—his masterpiece and the only work he is known to have produced—is a record of his "inquiry" being an investigation of the origins of the Greco-Persian Wars and including a wealth of geographical and ethnographical information."
It is the "method" of collecting materials systematically, and testing their accuracy to a certain extent that is the present day method lacking in the early writtings about Jesus.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 17:16:44 GMT -5
Oh yes -- I've heard that one too. Here's how it worked. Up until Moses time the surface (crust) of the earth was actually separated from the core of the earth by a concealed layer of ocean. Then there came a great burst in the crust and the lower ocean burst skywards causing torrential rains for 40 days and 40 nights, and it was quite a while before the crust could settle down into its new location and the added water on the surface could find its way to the present oceans, etc. Ain't that neat??? Gen 7:11-12 Noah was 600 years old. It was the 17th day of the second month of the year. On that day all of the springs at the bottom of the oceans burst open. God opened the windows of the skies. Rain fell on the earth for 40 days and 40 nights.
For 40 days the flood kept coming on the earth. As the waters rose higher, they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose higher and higher on the earth. And the ark floated on the water. The waters rose on the earth until all of the high mountains under the entire sky were covered. The waters continued to rise until they covered the mountains by more than 20 feet.Every living thing that moved on the earth died. The birds, the livestock and the wild animals died. All of the creatures that fill the earth also died. And so did every human being. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in it died. Every living thing on the earth was wiped out. People and animals were destroyed. The creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped out. Everything was destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark were left.Gen 8:1-4 But God showed concern for Noah. He also showed concern for all of the wild animals and livestock that were with Noah in the ark. So God sent a wind over the earth. And the waters began to go down. 2 The springs at the bottom of the oceans had been closed. The windows of the skies had been closed. And the rain had stopped falling from the sky. The water continued to go down from the earth. At the end of the 150 days the water had gone down. 4 On the 17th day of the seventh month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat/Turkey.
In 2010 Noah's Ark found ed by the Chinese expedition on Mt. Ararat/Turkey. They entered the Ark and they brought back many proof. ~~ Noah's Ark has been found in Turkey on Mount Ararat 2010 - with documents www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNnkrlQ69EEI know what the Bible says. Did you think I believed the explanation I just told? |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 17:21:21 GMT -5
The original 1954 UFO Crash Retrieval manual of the U.S. Government, known as "Special Operations Manual SOM1-01". The document was classified at two levels Above Top Secret. Yep, this is the document that said that crashed ET craft should be sent to “Area 51 S-4” in Nevada even though area 51 eas not in existence at the time the purported manual was published. For those interested in some neatly forged documents there is a PDF of part 1 here. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 17:29:06 GMT -5
Do you think that Jude was unaware that the OT spells out exactly what sins Sodom was guilty of having committed? I don't remember sexual escapades being in that list. Jude would not have had an OT available to him. There was the Septuagint, but I'm not sure Christians would have accepted the Septuagint in Jude's day. Anyway, my information didn't come from the Bible. It came from ancient history studies -- very ancient, that is. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 17:31:50 GMT -5
Oh yes -- I've heard that one too. Here's how it worked. Up until Moses time the surface (crust) of the earth was actually separated from the core of the earth by a concealed layer of ocean. Then there came a great burst in the crust and the lower ocean burst skywards causing torrential rains for 40 days and 40 nights, and it was quite a while before the crust could settle down into its new location and the added water on the surface could find its way to the present oceans, etc. Ain't that neat??? Quite a lot of the water came from the reptilians pumping the water out of the tunnel network they have built. I knew there was some piss in that story. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 17:32:35 GMT -5
There seems to be a lot on You-tube about these people with the strange eye slits, even among many of our leaders today ~ including the two Bushes and Obama. Of course. You pump out a lot and know that there are people sitting, drooling, watching the video who will never bother to look critically at anything to see if what they are being told is true or not. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 17:35:14 GMT -5
Jude would not have had an OT available to him. There was the Septuagint, but I'm not sure Christians would have accepted the Septuagint in Jude's day. Anyway, my information didn't come from the Bible. It came from ancient history studies -- very ancient, that is. People writing at the time were quoting the OT. The writer of Matthew did may times. Most of these people were Jews. They would have access to written material. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 17:36:43 GMT -5
Quite a lot of the water came from the reptilians pumping the water out of the tunnel network they have built. I knew there was some piss in that story. Later, Serrano took a photo through it and cause a bit of a stir as well! |
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 3, 2014 17:46:20 GMT -5
I am no historian, to say the least, but I am encouraged that , in spite of the "disagreements" on the accuracy of historical scripture , all of your conversations give me the sense that ALL of you agree and believe in the existence of Jesus. That's quite "powerful", imo., that someone from 2000 years ago is still instigating discussions and impacting us as much as He does today. Cool Yes, there are other historical figures get some attention also, but Jesus is talked about more, imo. I suppose there are a few, who refuse to believe He existed, just like the holocaust etc. .......
Alvin
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 17:54:02 GMT -5
Jude would not have had an OT available to him. There was the Septuagint, but I'm not sure Christians would have accepted the Septuagint in Jude's day. Anyway, my information didn't come from the Bible. It came from ancient history studies -- very ancient, that is. People writing at the time were quoting the OT. The writer of Matthew did may times. Most of these people were Jews. They would have access to written material. Well that is quite logical. True they were Jewish writers, but there is a great distinction between Palestinian Jews and Jews in the diaspora. It was the Greek speaking Jews who accepted the Septuagint. The 12 apostles quite certainly would not have been reading the Septuagint. It's doubtful any of the 12 could even read the Septuagint anyway because it was written in Greek and they didn't speak Greek. And neither could they read (if they were literate) any of the individual books of the OT because they didn't speak that language either. The conclusions some people draw from some of this cross referencing in the Bible assumes that everyone back then had higher education and spoke many languages. Paul made a point that he was unusual among Christians in that respect. Christians were not known to be an educated lot of people in the first couple of centuries CE. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 17:55:32 GMT -5
I knew there was some piss in that story. Later, Serrano took a photo through it and cause a bit of a stir as well! The origin of whirlpools, no doubt. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 17:55:56 GMT -5
I am no historian, to say the least, but I am encouraged that , in spite of the "disagreements" on the accuracy of historical scripture , all of your conversations give me the sense that ALL of you agree and believe in the existence of Jesus. That's quite "powerful", imo., that someone from 2000 years ago is still instigating discussions and impacting us as much as He does today. Cool Yes, there are other historical figures get some attention also, but Jesus is talked about more, imo. I suppose there are a few, who refuse to believe He existed, just like the holocaust etc. ....... Alvin You could be mistaken. I would agree there may have been a person or persons who the story was created around. Whether it was a single person with a lot of material filled in to build the story or if it was an amalgam of several people is unclear. The fact that there is no external references does raise some questions. It is possible that it was created from the memories of a small group who put together the story. It is also odd that there is detail regarding the start of his life and then a period of 20 years or so when there was nothing. Then a few years of details. A child born of a virgin who astounds his teachers at 12 then nothing for 20 years? |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 17:59:02 GMT -5
And neither could they read (if they were literate) any of the individual books of the OT because they didn't speak that language either. You are assuming the writers of the NT were unfamiliar with the OT and were not able to read Hebrew? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 17:59:37 GMT -5
I am no historian, to say the least, but I am encouraged that , in spite of the "disagreements" on the accuracy of historical scripture , all of your conversations give me the sense that ALL of you agree and believe in the existence of Jesus. That's quite "powerful", imo., that someone from 2000 years ago is still instigating discussions and impacting us as much as He does today. Cool Yes, there are other historical figures get some attention also, but Jesus is talked about more, imo. I suppose there are a few, who refuse to believe He existed, just like the holocaust etc. ....... Alvin You could be mistaken. I would agree there may have been a person or persons who the story was created around. Whether it was a single person with a lot of material filled in to build the story or if it was an amalgam of several people is unclear. The fact that there is no external references does raise some questions. It is possible that it was created from the memories of a small group who put together the story. It is also odd that there is detail regarding the start of his life and then a period of 20 years or so when there was nothing. Then a few years of details. A child born of a virgin who astounds his teachers at 12 then nothing for 20 years? Am I right that only Luke -- diasporic Jew -- detailed the virgin birth scenario? Greeks were very big on gods mating with human virgins, and diasporic Jews believed that happened a lot. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 18:04:31 GMT -5
And neither could they read (if they were literate) any of the individual books of the OT because they didn't speak that language either. You are assuming the writers of the NT were unfamiliar with the OT and were not able to read Hebrew? Yes, I am. They were as far removed from Hebrew as you are. As in our society, so in their society -- it took something like a college education to learn to read Hebrew. Even the literate Palestinian Jews were not reading Hebrew -- they were as removed from Hebrew as we are removed from Anglo-Saxon -- that was my 4th language when I went to university. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 18:05:49 GMT -5
Yep, this is the document that said that crashed ET craft should be sent to “Area 51 S-4” in Nevada even though area 51 areas not in existence at the time the purported manual was published. For those interested in some neatly forged documents there is a PDF of part 1 here. WE are NOT alone! in the Universe! ~~ America's Book of Secrets - ''Area 51'' www.youtube.com/watch?v=rei0_TRN_aA~~~ Jesse Ventura-Aliens Area 51 is CIA funding many of the black projects. Down 30 floors, Hybridzation programs, cloning humans with ETs genes, etc..www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxpO-qu51pE~~ Beyond Area 51: 16 Secret UFO Locationswww.trutv.com/conspiracy/paranormal/ufo-sites-secret-military-bases-area-51-haarp-russia-nsa/photos.html?curPhoto=beyond-area-511) Interview with EBE-2: March 5th, 1983 at Los Alamos National Labs. [Addition from Robert Collins: EBE2 did state that his planet was named "Sieu" but that was in Eben, not English. He never mentioned "Serpo" as such. He said that according to Earth days, his planet's days were approximately 37-40 hours; that he liked the cool climate of Earth, around LANL (Los Alamos National Laboratories) and northern New Mexico; and that he was a scientist and was providing assistance to Earth scientists in the area of space travel. EBE1 (initially just known as EBE) was the sole survivor of the Roswell crash, and lived until 1952 (see this posting by Anonymous), EBE2 arrived in 1964 and stayed till 1984, and EBE3 (with two aides, one of whom was female) arrived in 1978 and stayed until 1994.] GO TO link below and scroll down to #14 to see the Picture of the EBE1. www.serpo.orgThe Area 51 whistle-blower known only as "Victor" did this radio interview on May 23, 1997. Victor is a very paranoid individual. Unfortunately, because he fears for his personal safety he has only offered interviews anonymously. This is the second of Victor's three interviews. The first being the earlier 1997 documentary "Area 51/s4: The Alien Interview" by Rocket Pictures that he speaks of in this interview. The third interview was held in 2008, and released as bonus footage for the re-release of "Alien Interview". Victor's concerns for his personal safety are not unwarranted. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-viqc7DJWhsThis is an interview with different experts on "Victor" smuggled alien tape www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SEv78UOZc8~~ Area51 - The Grey ALIEN Interview from "Victor" was NOT a hoax 11 Years later Part 6-9 www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgVjW7mvRQE&feature=relmfu~~ S4 Info V1 - Area 51 Guard's Firsthand Account of Captured UFOs and Aliens www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Sb2VNp5Uc&feature=relatedS4 V2 - VP Dick Cheney Inspects Captured UFOs www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDNCi6TFPuA&feature=watch_responseNo, Nathan. It's the media that is lying to Americans. The reason they're doing that is because we pay them to entertain us. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 18:10:30 GMT -5
Well here's the deal, dmich. There's too much history oral and written that corroborates the truth of the gospels over the course of 2000 years. I can understand you not wanting to believe it - from your chosen perspective - as that would require a different focus for you. However, that doesn't change history.
That it has nothing to do with my supposed "chosen" perspective or whether I, personally, want to "believe" something or not.
My point is the way people understand the method by which history is written today compared to how history was written the days of that FIRST CENTURY AD.
They understood the writings of the gospels for what they were, -stories, not actual history.
from wiki:
Herodotus was as ancient Greek historian who was the first historian who was known "to collect his materials systematically, test their accuracy to a certain extent, and arrange them in a well-constructed and vivid narrative."
"The Histories—his masterpiece and the only work he is known to have produced—is a record of his "inquiry" being an investigation of the origins of the Greco-Persian Wars and including a wealth of geographical and ethnographical information."
It is the "method" of collecting materials systematically, and testing their accuracy to a certain extent that is the present day method lacking in the early writtings about Jesus.
Herodotus is also known as the father of lies... |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 18:10:29 GMT -5
I am no historian, to say the least, but I am encouraged that , in spite of the "disagreements" on the accuracy of historical scripture , all of your conversations give me the sense that ALL of you agree and believe in the existence of Jesus. That's quite "powerful", imo., that someone from 2000 years ago is still instigating discussions and impacting us as much as He does today. Cool Yes, there are other historical figures get some attention also, but Jesus is talked about more, imo. I suppose there are a few, who refuse to believe He existed, just like the holocaust etc. ....... Alvin Undoubtedly someone called Jesus lived. But as for much of the "ancient history" you hear about is kind of crap from people who haven't studied anything about it. Of course, there is a common tradition among many Americans for preferring the crap version to anything educated researchers have to say. |
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 18:13:00 GMT -5
No, Nathan. It's the media that is lying to Americans. The reason they're doing that is because we pay them to entertain us. I don't know Bob. This stuff that Nathan is posting is pretty entertaining. At least for a minute or two! |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 3, 2014 18:16:02 GMT -5
No, Nathan. It's the media that is lying to Americans. The reason they're doing that is because we pay them to entertain us. I don't know Bob. This stuff that Nathan is posting is pretty entertaining. At least for a minute or two! Nathan -- do the workers tell you this stuff? |
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I have to admit, from my study of the historical back-drop to Christianity and the historical Jesus, there is a lot of "empty spaces" with little historical evidence to back them up?
Prayers for all who have requested prayer, or for whom prayer has been requested.
