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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 14:05:47 GMT -5
hell is very real unless you want to say Jesus Lied...
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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Post by matisse on Mar 31, 2014 14:14:25 GMT -5
hell is very real unless you want to say Jesus Lied... Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Jesus lying is not the only alternative.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 31, 2014 14:19:17 GMT -5
Are you stating that Jesus as God (and man) was dependent upon the Scriptures to form what he well knew about hell - and further - what he himself taught concerning hell ? 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25 8If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. Matthew 16 StAnne ~ To answer your question above, I would like to present this article below in addition to the one I shared earlier in my opening paragraph, as it seems to cover these Bible references quite well.
www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2013/01/09/what-did-jesus-teach-about-hell/
30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm
Your opening statement - myth, you say - totally disregards Jesus' teaching and that of the OT. Regardless of whatever way you prefer to twist and turn it - eternal means eternal. Just as Jesus stated and taught. While is may or may not be actual fire - remains an unanswered question for some. 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. And that's all I have to say about that.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 14:31:01 GMT -5
Your opening statement - myth, you say - totally disregards Jesus' teaching and that of the OT. Regardless of whatever way you prefer to twist and turn it - eternal means eternal. Just as Jesus stated and taught. While it may or may not be actual fire - remains an unanswered question for some.
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. And that's all I have to say about that. StAnne ~ You said in your own words that this was "the teaching of the Church" (RCC) regarding hell and eternity. That's basically what I was trying to bring out in this thread, namely that a lot of what we believe about Hell today was incorporated by the Church in their teachings passed down through the centuries.
Sorry, if the word "myth" offended you, but that was the author's words from his own conclusions ~ not mine. I believe there may well be a place assigned to the lost, I just don't buy into the idea of eternal torment and punishment forever. I feel such verses may well have been incorporated into the Bible to reflect this view of the RCC when you compare the Old Testament teachings regarding Hell with the N.T. teachings? The difference is obvious.
In addition, all the records we have of Jesus' words were recorded on fragments from passed down oral testimony with the details added later by the gospel writers. No doubt this accounts for a lot of the discrepancies we see even within the gospel accounts? ???However, this is just my own thoughts on this matter. I don't expect anybody to change their beliefs based upon my observations or personal opinions here. I'm just presenting a particular view for consideration and comments.
StAnne ~ I believe the scriptures found within the New Testament do speak of "the fires of Hell" from the different references given earlier? Are you saying now that it "may not be actual fire" we are talking about here? Do you also have some doubts about this yourself? Also, if not fire, what else would it be that would continually consume the lost forever into eternity? Both Wally and Nathan gave N.T. references from scripture that suggest Hell will be a fiery place of eternal torment, IMO?
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 14:30:55 GMT -5
Your opening statement - myth, you say - totally disregards Jesus' teaching and that of the OT. Regardless of whatever way you prefer to twist and turn it - eternal means eternal. Just as Jesus stated and taught. While is may or may not be actual fire - remains an unanswered question for some. 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. And that's all I have to say about that. StAnne ~ You said in your own words that this was "the teaching of the Church" (RCC) regarding hell and eternity. That's basically what I was trying to bring out in this thread, namely that a lot of what we believe about Hell today was incorporated by the Church in their teachings passed down through the centuries.
Sorry, if the word "myth" offended you, but that was the author's words from his own conclusions ~ not mine. I believe there may well be a place assigned to the lost, I just don't buy into the idea of eternal torment and punishment forever. I feel such verses may well have been incorporated into the Bible to reflect this view of the RCC when you compare the O.T. teachings regarding Hell with the N.T. teachings, which definitely reflects a difference. Actually all the records we have of Jesus' words were recorded on fragments with the details added later by the gospel writers. No doubt that accounts for a lot of the discrepancies we see even within the gospel accounts? JMT
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Post by StAnne on Mar 31, 2014 14:38:54 GMT -5
StAnne ~ You said in your own words that this was "the teaching of the Church" (RCC) regarding hell and eternity. That's basically what I was trying to bring out in this thread, namely that a lot of what we believe about Hell today was incorporated by the Church in their teachings passed down through the centuries. Yes it is - because the Church has always taught what Jesus taught - and passed down thru his Apostles and their successors. The church of 1 Tim 3:15 - the pillar and foundation of truth - given to us to by Christ to teach truth. The doctrine of the Apostles in which we are scripturally taught to persevere. Why would you expect that the Church would teach something differently about the eternality of hell - when Jesus taught that hell is eternal. Okay. That's all.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 14:52:57 GMT -5
The wages of sin is DEATH. "From dust you came, and to dust you shall return." Where was Adam before he was created? He was in the dust. He wasn't alive. This is the punishment for sin, to return to the dust. Also, people are getting confused about ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. Eternal punishMENT isn't the same as eternal punishING. Eternal life in a burning fire isn't death. It's eternal life, no matter how you look at it. As far as the "fire that cannot be quenched..." Jude 1:7 speaks of the fire that cannot be quenched, and equates this fire to the same that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. We know that Sodom is not burning to this day. "Hell" will be the same sort of fire... a fire that will be unquenchable UNTIL it runs out of fuel. The result of the fire will be eternal... the fire will be unquenchable... but it wont burn forever. As far as those who think that Hitler and other evil folks deserve to be tortured forever.... God doesn't agree with you. He's bigger and better than us. He loves, and doesn't punish beyond what is necessary. And, He keeps to His word, which says THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. Embers ~ Thank you for sharing your point of view here. Personally, I agree because I cannot see a loving and compassionate God punishing human beings, even evil ones, forever and ever. It just goes against the image of a merciful God, IMHO.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 15:03:07 GMT -5
StAnne ~ You said in your own words that this was "the teaching of the Church" (RCC) regarding hell and eternity. That's basically what I was trying to bring out in this thread, namely that a lot of what we believe about Hell today was incorporated by the Church in their teachings passed down through the centuries. Yes it is - because the Church has always taught what Jesus taught - and passed down thru his Apostles and their successors. The church of 1 Tim 3:15 - the pillar and foundation of truth - given to us to by Christ to teach truth. The doctrine of the Apostles in which we are scripturally taught to persevere. Why would you expect that the Church would teach something differently about the eternality of hell - when Jesus taught that hell is eternal. Okay. That's all. From my understanding regarding the RCC, the teachings of the ECF's including the Popes down through the centuries is also considered part of sacred teaching passed down? In fact, the Pope's directives and interpretations, as the leader of the RCC, are viewed on the same level as being God inspired and infallible? If I'm wrong here, please correct me?
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Post by StAnne on Mar 31, 2014 15:34:02 GMT -5
Yes it is - because the Church has always taught what Jesus taught - and passed down thru his Apostles and their successors. The church of 1 Tim 3:15 - the pillar and foundation of truth - given to us to by Christ to teach truth. The doctrine of the Apostles in which we are scripturally taught to persevere. Why would you expect that the Church would teach something differently about the eternality of hell - when Jesus taught that hell is eternal. Okay. That's all. From my understanding regarding the RCC, the teachings of the ECF's including the Popes down through the centuries is also considered part of sacred teaching passed down? In fact, the Pope's directives and interpretations, as the leader of the RCC, are viewed on the same level as being God inspired and infallible? If I'm wrong here, please correct me? There are a number of errors in your statement/questions. The general answer is that each would have to be viewed on an individual basis for the ones having Holy Orders - the charism of infallibility only applies to matters of faith and morals for the Pope and/or college of bishops - www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility - and is then weighed by the following categories: www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=564105I will not discuss this topic further here. You are welcome to PM me.
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embers
Junior Member
God is love. He isn't the monster you think He is.
Posts: 56
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Post by embers on Mar 31, 2014 15:53:57 GMT -5
St.Anne, there was a time when I would have vehemently disagreed that the RCC is/was the original church. Now, I think that perhaps it is/was the original church. However, I don't think that just because a church is/was the original church, doesn't mean that everything that church teaches is hunky dory. You can have an original source for clean, clear water, but that original source may become poisoned. If the original source is tainted, then a person shouldn't drink from that source. I'd dare say that what we see in the RCC church isn't the same as what they saw 2,000 years ago.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2014 16:25:08 GMT -5
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. Jude 1 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Revelation 14 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10,14-15 I noticed that the man who was saved had offered his virgin daughters to appease the mob. Anyway, did you know that it was the custom in ancient redneck towns that the men would rape anyone (normally men) who wandered into town unannounced?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2014 16:27:54 GMT -5
St.Anne, there was a time when I would have vehemently disagreed that the RCC is/was the original church. Now, I think that perhaps it is/was the original church. However, I don't think that just because a church is/was the original church, doesn't mean that everything that church teaches is hunky dory. You can have an original source for clean, clear water, but that original source may become poisoned. If the original source is tainted, then a person shouldn't drink from that source. I'd dare say that what we see in the RCC church isn't the same as what they saw 2,000 years ago. You should read some non-sectarian "history". You may get your vehemence back.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2014 16:29:41 GMT -5
hell is very real unless you want to say Jesus Lied... Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Jesus never said that. He didn't even speak English. By the way, are you Roman Catholic?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2014 16:31:33 GMT -5
The wages of sin is DEATH. "From dust you came, and to dust you shall return." Where was Adam before he was created? He was in the dust. He wasn't alive. This is the punishment for sin, to return to the dust. Also, people are getting confused about ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. Eternal punishMENT isn't the same as eternal punishING. Eternal life in a burning fire isn't death. It's eternal life, no matter how you look at it. As far as the "fire that cannot be quenched..." Jude 1:7 speaks of the fire that cannot be quenched, and equates this fire to the same that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. We know that Sodom is not burning to this day. "Hell" will be the same sort of fire... a fire that will be unquenchable UNTIL it runs out of fuel. The result of the fire will be eternal... the fire will be unquenchable... but it wont burn forever. As far as those who think that Hitler and other evil folks deserve to be tortured forever.... God doesn't agree with you. He's bigger and better than us. He loves, and doesn't punish beyond what is necessary. And, He keeps to His word, which says THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. Does the Bible say Hell will run out of fuel? That sounds more like a justification of Islam than of Christianity.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 16:44:42 GMT -5
StAnne ~ You said in your own words that this was "the teaching of the Church" (RCC) regarding hell and eternity. That's basically what I was trying to bring out in this thread, namely that a lot of what we believe about Hell today was incorporated by the Church in their teachings passed down through the centuries. Yes it is - because the Church has always taught what Jesus taught - and passed down thru his Apostles and their successors. The church of 1 Tim 3:15 - the pillar and foundation of truth - given to us to by Christ to teach truth. The doctrine of the Apostles in which we are scripturally taught to persevere. Why would you expect that the Church would teach something differently about the eternality of hell - when Jesus taught that hell is eternal. Okay. That's all. It's your concluding statement you made above which I highlighted that question here. Did Jesus really teach that "hell is eternal" and everlasting punishment and torment awaits any who don't embrace His teachings? I thought this was more like what Jesus desired to convey to all the world instead? Are we somehow changing a God of love and mercy into a God of judgment and wrath later on in this picture of eternal torment? Doesn't that conflict just a little bit with Jesus' character traits throughout the gospel accounts?
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Post by StAnne on Mar 31, 2014 16:54:47 GMT -5
St.Anne, there was a time when I would have vehemently disagreed that the RCC is/was the original church. Now, I think that perhaps it is/was the original church. However, I don't think that just because a church is/was the original church, doesn't mean that everything that church teaches is hunky dory. You can have an original source for clean, clear water, but that original source may become poisoned. If the original source is tainted, then a person shouldn't drink from that source. I'd dare say that what we see in the RCC church isn't the same as what they saw 2,000 years ago. PM'd you.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 17:03:19 GMT -5
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. Jude 1 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Revelation 14 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10,14-15 I noticed that the man who was saved had offered his virgin daughters to appease the mob.
Anyway, did you know that it was the custom in ancient redneck towns that the men would rape anyone (normally men) who wandered into town unannounced?Bob ~ No I didn't know that fact. Now that explains why Lot offered his daughters to the mob instead of the strangers who were his guests? So much for protecting those of your own household, huh? Also, it speaks loud and clear as to how little value was placed on females in ancient times, in that this type of behavior was acceptable and parents could even sell their daughters into slavery or offer their only child in sacrifice to God to honor some rash oath ~ like Jephthah did in the book of Judges? What a fatherly gesture both of these examples convey!
However, I do have to admit that StAnne did provide some scriptures that suggest eternal torment, forever and ever from Revelation, but these were words ascribed to John's vision and not spoken by Jesus, I believe?
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Post by StAnne on Mar 31, 2014 17:05:12 GMT -5
Did Jesus really teach that "hell is eternal" and everlasting punishment and torment awaits any who don't embrace His teachings? He did explicitly say 'eternal punishment' and 'eternal fire' (whatever that fire may be). We cannot project that upon 'any who do not embrace his teachings' because that it too broad a statement. Some may not have access to his teachings, etc. Again ... 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25 8If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. Matthew 18 Now if that doesn't mean eternal - then I suppose we cannot take him at his promise of eternal life? It's the same word. With the same conotation. Englishman's Concordance αἰώνιον (aiōnion) — 45 Occurrences Matthew 18:8 Adj-ANS GRK: πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον NAS: and be cast into the eternal fire. KJV: to be cast into everlasting fire. INT: fire eternal Matthew 19:16 Adj-AFS GRK: σχῶ ζωὴν αἰώνιον NAS: that I may obtain eternal life? KJV: that I may have eternal life? INT: I might have life eternal Matthew 25:41 Adj-ANS GRK: πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον NAS: from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire KJV: into everlasting fire, INT: fire eternal which has been prepared Matthew 25:46 Adj-AFS GRK: εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ NAS: will go away into eternal punishment, KJV: into everlasting punishment: INT: into punishment eternal moreover John 6:40 Adj-AFS GRK: ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ ἀναστήσω NAS: in Him will have eternal life, KJV: him, may have everlasting life: and INT: should have life eternal and will raise up John 6:47 Adj-AFS GRK: ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον NAS: has eternal life. KJV: me hath everlasting life. INT: has life eternal John 6:54 Adj-AFS GRK: ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω NAS: has eternal life, KJV: blood, hath eternal life; and INT: has life eternal and I I will raise up 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Adj-AMS GRK: τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον ἀπὸ προσώπου NAS: the penalty of eternal destruction, KJV: shall be punished with everlasting destruction INT: will suffer destruction eternal from [the] presence 1 Timothy 6:16 Adj-NNS GRK: καὶ κράτος αἰώνιον ἀμήν NAS: To Him [be] honor and eternal dominion! KJV: and power everlasting. Amen. INT: and might eternal Amen 1 Peter 5:10 Adj-AFS GRK: εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν NAS: who called you to His eternal glory KJV: unto his eternal glory by INT: to the eternal of him glory biblehub.com/greek/aio_nion_166.htm(edited to remove some of the 45 - all 45 are available at the link)
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 17:18:46 GMT -5
Did Jesus really teach that "hell is eternal" and everlasting punishment and torment awaits any who don't embrace His teachings? He did explicitly say 'eternal punishment' and 'eternal fire' (whatever that fire may be). We cannot project that upon 'any who do not embrace his teachings' because that it too broad a statement. Some may not have access to his teachings, etc. Again ... 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25 8If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. Matthew 18 Now if that doesn't mean eternal - then I suppose we cannot take him at his promise of eternal life? It's the same word. With the same connotation. INT: fire eternalbiblehub.com/greek/aio_nion_166.htm StAnne ~ Thanks for clarifying the words of Jesus above. That answered my earlier question.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 17:25:24 GMT -5
Here's a link to commentary on the story of the rich man and Lazarus which I feel deserves to be taken into consideration in this thread for the clear explanation it presents. Since this story is used as a real basis for eternal hell fire and torment, I feel it deserves our consideration? Also, Wally brought it up in an earlier post and I never got to respond until now. I feel this article explains this reference by Jesus in Luke 16 quite satisfactorily for all to understand.
www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Luke/Lu16b.html
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Post by StAnne on Mar 31, 2014 17:30:33 GMT -5
Are we somehow changing a God of love and mercy into a God of judgment and wrath later on in this picture of eternal torment? Doesn't that conflict just a little bit with Jesus' character traits throughout the gospel accounts?
Christ did come to redeem us that we may be saved - he loved us so much that he went to the Cross for our sins. That does not negate the fact that at the moment of death our soul will be judged - and will be heaven-bound - or to hell. Look at the verse that follows your quote - condemned - 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 31, 2014 17:38:58 GMT -5
Hell is no myth and it would be so much easier to accept the plight of those who are not saved if it was. In Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,” however, eternal punishment can have only one meaning. The unbroken usage of the adjective ‘eternal’ excludes the idea of ‘endlessness’ and forbids us to go the way of universalism in saying that our Lord is teaching here a very long period of corrective detention.
The notion of ‘eternity’ in the New Testament excludes the idea of termination; and the noun ‘punishment’ wherever used signifies painful experience. Furthermore the Greek word kolasis (punishment) is a sharing of the fate of the ‘devil and his angels’ as in verse 41, that is the second death of Revelation 21:10 and 14 with all its frightful realities of a final and irreversible change of place and state along with continuing personal life.
Can the precise terms used by our Saviour in this passage point in any other direction? New Testament Scholar, Leon Morris observes that ‘the same adjective is applied to both punishment and reward.’ - One group to eternal punishment and the righteous (v37) to eternal life. Morris writes:
Jesus is not speaking of some small experience that would be but for a moment, but of that which has no end. He leaves his hearers in no doubt as to the solemnity of what he is saying. Eternal issues are involved, and this is so for those on his right hand and on his left.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 17:43:18 GMT -5
Are we somehow changing a God of love and mercy into a God of judgment and wrath later on in this picture of eternal torment? Doesn't that conflict just a little bit with Jesus' character traits throughout the gospel accounts?
Christ did come to redeem us that we may be saved - he loved us so much that he went to the Cross for our sins. That does not negate the fact that at the moment of death our soul will be judged - and will be heaven-bound - or to hell. Look at the verse that follows your quote - condemned - 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. StAnne ~ According to that verse, it seems that those who would stand condemned by God for not believing in Jesus would perish, which translated according to the Greek above meant to come to destruction or be lost. Destruction in this sense, which would agree with O.T. teaching as well, would seemingly infer the grave or final annihilation. Even many well known theologians in the past taught this idea of annihilation for the lost in the doctrine of soul sleep, which was accepted as orthodox Bible teaching up through the 19th century or late 1800's, before it was replaced with what we believe today in regards to the afterlife.
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Post by faune on Mar 31, 2014 17:47:20 GMT -5
Now I would like to get back to the subject of Papal infallibility in regards to a statement that StAnne had correct me on earlier. From researching this subject I discovered this article on Wiki which goes into its history within the Church, going back to the time when Peter as claimed as the first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 7:20:17 GMT -5
Faune, if you want to "pause and consider" why don't you pause and consider the bible itself? In literature the bible would be called the "source material."
If you want to read some "expert" opinion on the bible then to be intellectually honest you will have to read them all. And there's a lot of opinion out there.
In the Old and New Testament we understand hell to be separation from God. And heaven to be everlasting fellowship with God. I am sure all the OT saints understood that long before Jesus made it explicit.
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Post by Lee on Apr 1, 2014 7:57:07 GMT -5
I believe the soul of mankind has a destiny. You can board that train or buck it, but it won't be stopping for you.
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Post by faune on Apr 1, 2014 8:48:48 GMT -5
Faune, if you want to "pause and consider" why don't you pause and consider the bible itself? In literature the bible would be called the "source material." If you want to read some "expert" opinion on the bible then to be intellectually honest you will have to read them all. And there's a lot of opinion out there. In the Old and New Testament we understand hell to be separation from God. And heaven to be everlasting fellowship with God. I am sure all the OT saints understood that long before Jesus made it explicit. Bert ~ I feel you need to use outside sources to present the different opinions that people believe to be true in any discussion. It also gives you a window into the different interpretations of these scriptures referenced earlier ~ such as Luke 16. Since this is a controversial topic, I felt it would make for a good discussion, too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 8:53:18 GMT -5
Faune I don't concede their authority. All these people are reading the bible? If so, then can't you read it yourself to avoid bias? If they are not reading the bible then they are not acknowledging the bible's ultimate authority.
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