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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 19:12:38 GMT -5
I am I supposed to wonder if my brother and sister in the meeting loves me or would it be clear in there actions ? If it was for the lack of feeling loved in the meetings I would have quit going long time ago. I have been in the meetings for 40 plus years and as far as I can remember I have never felt any genuine love.
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Post by snow on Feb 20, 2014 20:10:10 GMT -5
I am I supposed to wonder if my brother and sister in the meeting loves me or would it be clear in there actions ? If it was for the lack of feeling loved in the meetings I would have quit going long time ago. I have been in the meetings for 40 plus years and as far as I can remember I have never felt any genuine love. That's sad. I'm sorry that has been your experience. What could they do that would make you sure they loved you? btw, welcome to TMB. Nice to have you here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 21:03:15 GMT -5
Thanks ,I did send a response but must have clicked on the wrong button because I don't see my response. Will have to do it another day all being well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 8:03:14 GMT -5
I am I supposed to wonder if my brother and sister in the meeting loves me or would it be clear in there actions ? If it was for the lack of feeling loved in the meetings I would have quit going long time ago. I have been in the meetings for 40 plus years and as far as I can remember I have never felt any genuine love. That's sad. I'm sorry that has been your experience. What could they do that would make you sure they loved you? btw, welcome to TMB. Nice to have you here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 8:26:48 GMT -5
What they would do if they had Godly love is: - Phone and ask how one is doing and if there is anything they can help with. - When one is not in the meetings for a couple of weeks they would surely call and see how one is doing. - When one is between a rock and a hard place like loosing your job ext. they would be willing to help you out. - They would be involved on a more personal level then just meeting in meetings and then for curtsy sake ask how you are doing. - They would live out the parable of the good Samara than without counting the cost. -They would treat each other as if one was truly one body ,meaning you feel when a brother or sister gets hurt and you act in actions not just words to help them. You deeply feel when they aren't at meetings ,you truly want to have a deeper relationship with them then just seeing them in meeting.
This is not judging ,we are taught that we will know the true Christians by there fruit. I still have a lot to learn about Godly love but I sure know what to look out for. I am longing to show Godly love but I am not going to push myself on people that make it clear that they don't want contact.When my husband lost his work the workers came around to visit, I felt so disappointed in there visit. There was no spiritual or emotional support. They where in such a rush because they where busy with there special meeting rounds and had lots of other visits to fit in. They can take same notes from Paul who collected for the poor and needy. Not that we needed any body's money. One of the lady's in our meeting that could least afford any financial help was the only one that actually asked if we where ok financially.In my 40 years I have never been in a field where the workers collected for the poor and needy Christians.But they can afford flying workers around the globe !
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embers
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Post by embers on Feb 21, 2014 10:07:39 GMT -5
Pretoria, I understand all too well. I don't understand why it has to be this way.
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Post by snow on Feb 21, 2014 13:23:10 GMT -5
What they would do if they had Godly love is: - Phone and ask how one is doing and if there is anything they can help with. - When one is not in the meetings for a couple of weeks they would surely call and see how one is doing. - When one is between a rock and a hard place like loosing your job ext. they would be willing to help you out. - They would be involved on a more personal level then just meeting in meetings and then for curtsy sake ask how you are doing. - They would live out the parable of the good Samara than without counting the cost. -They would treat each other as if one was truly one body ,meaning you feel when a brother or sister gets hurt and you act in actions not just words to help them. You deeply feel when they aren't at meetings ,you truly want to have a deeper relationship with them then just seeing them in meeting. This is not judging ,we are taught that we will know the true Christians by there fruit. I still have a lot to learn about Godly love but I sure know what to look out for. I am longing to show Godly love but I am not going to push myself on people that make it clear that they don't want contact.When my husband lost his work the workers came around to visit, I felt so disappointed in there visit. There was no spiritual or emotional support. They where in such a rush because they where busy with there special meeting rounds and had lots of other visits to fit in. They can take same notes from Paul who collected for the poor and needy. Not that we needed any body's money. One of the lady's in our meeting that could least afford any financial help was the only one that actually asked if we where ok financially.In my 40 years I have never been in a field where the workers collected for the poor and needy Christians.But they can afford flying workers around the globe ! Those would be good examples. In the bigger family called humanity I see it more than I do within some religions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 13:53:07 GMT -5
Brilliant thread. If jesus was love then surely that is why we are here - to learn how to love.
I don't know how to answer your question because I don't know much about love. I've looked in a lot of places where love is meant to be and not found it. I've thought love was in some places only to realise decades later it wasn't love, never had been. I've looked again in other places and suddenly realised love had always been there, I just didn't know it for what it was. As far as showing love .. well never been good at that. I suspect we have to be very good at loving ourselves to be able to take the enormous step it is to open ourselves up to loving others and being loved.
Do you think it is possible the people in your meetings want to love you but don't know how?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 16:04:07 GMT -5
Pretoria, I am so sorry for your plight. Remembering how often we contacted every friend often, before most who abandoned us at the workers insistence to have the overseer approval, including family members. How does the saying go? Life can be a bowl of cherries or else a bowl of cherry pits. Wish they would grow if you planted them!!!
Wish I could do more for you than just add you to my list of those in need.
It was indeed the lack of love that finally showed me how/where the system in which I was trusting was lacking.
Thinking about that which tells us the lack in saying be warm to those in need of clothing, or be fed to those in need of food...
There was a man who constantly showed us such love and kindness... Only one during a time when I was laying on a hospital bed at home, in traction, with casts on both legs. He was one of the kindest most caring men I ever knew. One time he even came and changed the oil and filter on our car, knowing Ylva could not do it and I was unable to do it. I am very very thankful for such people... and each of you know who you are.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 20:44:42 GMT -5
Brilliant thread. If jesus was love then surely that is why we are here - to learn how to love. I don't know how to answer your question because I don't know much about love. I've looked in a lot of places where love is meant to be and not found it. I've thought love was in some places only to realise decades later it wasn't love, never had been. I've looked again in other places and suddenly realised love had always been there, I just didn't know it for what it was. As far as showing love .. well never been good at that. I suspect we have to be very good at loving ourselves to be able to take the enormous step it is to open ourselves up to loving others and being loved. Do you think it is possible the people in your meetings want to love you but don't know how?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 20:52:12 GMT -5
Mmmm ,if they profess to be Christians they should automatically have the love Jesus talks about in the parable of the Good Samara-than. And oh my I do have a lot to learn about that love that is described somewhere in Corinthians. If I had that love it probably would not upset me so much to see others not having it, I would just love unconditionally. And we know if we don't have Godly love we are nothing. I have more a human love,if someone shows kindness to me I will be kind in return but oh boy if I don't see love from others especially in the meetings I can spend many a hour grumbling about it instead of trying to work that Godly love in my own life.
Thanks for all the responses.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 21:14:04 GMT -5
Pretoria, I am so sorry for your plight. Remembering how often we contacted every friend often, before most who abandoned us at the workers insistence to have the overseer approval, including family members. How does the saying go? Life can be a bowl of cherries or else a bowl of cherry pits. Wish they would grow if you planted them!!!
Wish I could do more for you than just add you to my list of those in need.
It was indeed the lack of love that finally showed me how/where the system in which I was trusting was lacking.
Thinking about that which tells us the lack in saying be warm to those in need of clothing, or be fed to those in need of food...
There was a man who constantly showed us such love and kindness... Only one during a time when I was laying on a hospital bed at home, in traction, with casts on both legs. He was one of the kindest most caring men I ever knew. One time he even came and changed the oil and filter on our car, knowing Ylva could not do it and I was unable to do it. I am very very thankful for such people... and each of you know who you are.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 21:19:37 GMT -5
Yes,love doesn't count the cost( yes we know we have some natural limits) but love goes beyond human understanding. Love goes beyond just simply praying. We had a rich elder that used to tell us every time we went to his meeting how he prayed for us getting work. That same elder could not even share a cup of cold water with us and when he passed away we had to hear how great he was and that he is going to heaven.Where he went I don't know,I leave that part up to God.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 5:38:28 GMT -5
Mmmm ,if they profess to be Christians they should automatically have the love Jesus talks about in the parable of the Good Samara-than. And oh my I do have a lot to learn about that love that is described somewhere in Corinthians. If I had that love it probably would not upset me so much to see others not having it, I would just love unconditionally. And we know if we don't have Godly love we are nothing. I have more a human love,if someone shows kindness to me I will be kind in return but oh boy if I don't see love from others especially in the meetings I can spend many a hour grumbling about it instead of trying to work that Godly love in my own life. Thanks for all the responses. Thankyou for your reply Pretoria. I apologise for confusing my post with my difficulties in understanding love. I do not assume they are yours. You earlier post was so clear as to your expectations and those expectations were so reasonable and right. I think I understand, my experience of the fellowhip I enjoyed in the 2by2's were much the same. In Melbourne, Victoria, Australia where I grew up the cultural heritage is very much british, reserved, conservative, self-contained, well mannered and polite to a fault. Its not just the 2by2's that don't show care and compassion, its a cultural trait of the city. I have lived in other areas of Australia where the cultural heritage is different. For example, I have lived in a small town where the current status and background was poverty, oppression, underclass. The people there would ask to help and help even if you said no. They would share their last meal with you. They might not mind their p's and q's, swear like you wouldn't believe, drink like a fish in a desert, abuse you no end (its aussie particularly male culture to abuse your friends, but they'd go the extra mile any day of the week. And they were about as irreligious as you could find. I don't know where to put these experiences Pretoria. There was something lovely about the 2by2 fellowship in my home town but it definitely lacked what you have so well identified. There is something lovely about the small town culture of helping each other. Both have their dark side. If the two could combine it would be nice, but oil and water. I live in a small town. I am learning to be open to the help of my neighbours and learning to help. I am trying not to become an alcoholic and not to abuse my friends as a form of affection. I'm not doing so well on the alcohol bit ...
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embers
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Post by embers on Feb 25, 2014 11:26:30 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this post. If you want a biblical answer, here it is: 1 Corinthians 16:14, "Let all you do be done in love." Paul here is saying that it's possible to serve God without doing it in love, as he warns against in chapter 13. Then there is Romans 5:5, "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." True love (the love of God) is a GIFT. It's from the Holy Ghost. If one doesn't have the Holy Ghost, or if one is constantly suppressing the Holy Ghost, then one will not display the love of God. Something is wrong when one goes to Special Meetings (which I just did in February) and one feels dread and unhappiness in the air. My wife even felt it. We discussed it. There's something amiss in the f&w (at least in our region... I can't speak for others).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 13:02:08 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this post. If you want a biblical answer, here it is: 1 Corinthians 16:14, "Let all you do be done in love." Paul here is saying that it's possible to serve God without doing it in love, as he warns against in chapter 13. Then there is Romans 5:5, "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." True love (the love of God) is a GIFT. It's from the Holy Ghost. If one doesn't have the Holy Ghost, or if one is constantly suppressing the Holy Ghost, then one will not display the love of God. Something is wrong when one goes to Special Meetings (which I just did in February) and one feels dread and unhappiness in the air. My wife even felt it. We discussed it. There's something amiss in the f&w (at least in our region... I can't speak for others).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 13:29:09 GMT -5
Yes it's a gift of God witch can not be hidden away ,it's there or it is not. I want to find it with all my heart and I know God will help me. I am disappointed that I have not seen much evidence of it in the meetings that I have attended.I can only speak like you have said about what I have experienced there might be fields where the Love of God is manifested.And I am sure that this problem isn't unique just to the meeting. But I would rather be warned this side of the grave that I am lacking then on the other side.
Yesterday I took the plunge and actually told a elders wife that I didn't feel love in the meeting ,I clearly told her that I am not judging but that I don't see the fruit. I also made it clear to her that I don't know much about that love myself but would love to learn about that love from my brothers and sisters in the truth.She was very defensive and she could not understand why I felt that way. I told her the things that I would have expected from brothers and sisters that have the love of God like I have mentioned in a earlier post. Her excuse was that people perceived us as private because we left early after meetings and that is the reason why they haven't showed much interest.I wasn't buying that excuse ,if one really had the love of God one would not make excuses why you could not show interest in a member of the body of Christ. She said the Wednesday elder and his wife phoned them to ask about us seeing we have never been in there Wednesday meeting since we arrived in the field. Mmmm , how funny that they can't call us directly and ask how we are doing or even invite us for a cold cup of water if they had the love of God and was so interested in is ? I told her also that we haven't heard of the workers in our field for 5 months ,she said they had a big field. I told her that we have been in bigger fields where the workers got around to us at least every 3 months.Bottom line is that she didn't seem to understand the Godly love that I was referring to like Jesus mentioned in the parable about the Good Samara than.
Thanks for your reply embers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 13:34:48 GMT -5
Mmmm ,if they profess to be Christians they should automatically have the love Jesus talks about in the parable of the Good Samara-than. And oh my I do have a lot to learn about that love that is described somewhere in Corinthians. If I had that love it probably would not upset me so much to see others not having it, I would just love unconditionally. And we know if we don't have Godly love we are nothing. I have more a human love,if someone shows kindness to me I will be kind in return but oh boy if I don't see love from others especially in the meetings I can spend many a hour grumbling about it instead of trying to work that Godly love in my own life. Thanks for all the responses. Thankyou for your reply Pretoria. I apologise for confusing my post with my difficulties in understanding love. I do not assume they are yours. You earlier post was so clear as to your expectations and those expectations were so reasonable and right. I think I understand, my experience of the fellowhip I enjoyed in the 2by2's were much the same. In Melbourne, Victoria, Australia where I grew up the cultural heritage is very much british, reserved, conservative, self-contained, well mannered and polite to a fault. Its not just the 2by2's that don't show care and compassion, its a cultural trait of the city. I have lived in other areas of Australia where the cultural heritage is different. For example, I have lived in a small town where the current status and background was poverty, oppression, underclass. The people there would ask to help and help even if you said no. They would share their last meal with you. They might not mind their p's and q's, swear like you wouldn't believe, drink like a fish in a desert, abuse you no end (its aussie particularly male culture to abuse your friends, but they'd go the extra mile any day of the week. And they were about as irreligious as you could find. I don't know where to put these experiences Pretoria. There was something lovely about the 2by2 fellowship in my home town but it definitely lacked what you have so well identified. There is something lovely about the small town culture of helping each other. Both have their dark side. If the two could combine it would be nice, but oil and water. I live in a small town. I am learning to be open to the help of my neighbours and learning to help. I am trying not to become an alcoholic and not to abuse my friends as a form of affection. I'm not doing so well on the alcohol bit ...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 13:43:56 GMT -5
Hi passerby.
I don't know how you actually feel about religion ? But I know we don't have to be the servant of anything except God in this live and if we want to He can help us get free of anything that would be our master. I had a brother that was an alcoholic and until the day that he actually wanted to be freed of this master in his life ,all was in fain.He is freed know but it took a long time... It doesn't have to be that way if we truly want to be free and let Jesus help us.
I will reply further later all being well.... My husband returned and he doesn't know I am on this site !!!!!!
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embers
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Post by embers on Feb 25, 2014 23:14:53 GMT -5
Pretoria, Passerby said something about the culture of Victoria. Yes, Victoria may have a conservative culture and all, but culture doesn't necessarily flow over into a Church environment. Here in where I live, the 2x2 culture is unloving, but other churches don't seem to be that way. I have stopped going to 2x2 meetings, and just went to a Bible Students meeting last sunday. THE LOVE WAS PALPATABLE. You could FEEL it in the air. And it was manifested in the faces of the people. THIS IS NOT HOW THE 2X2 CULTURE IS. So, one cannot blame the deadness of a church on the culture of the city the church is in.
I don't buy the elder's wife reasoning. It's the same here. The socializing that's done after meetings (especially Gospel Meetings) is clickish. It's not generally extended to those outside of the cliques that exist in the meetings. Also, I've also had messages passed on to me through other friends via workers. It's weird. Why can't they call themselves? Also, they should visit more often. They don't. There's no excuse for it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 13:29:00 GMT -5
Hi passerby. I don't know how you actually feel about religion ? But I know we don't have to be the servant of anything except God in this live and if we want to He can help us get free of anything that would be our master. I had a brother that was an alcoholic and until the day that he actually wanted to be freed of this master in his life ,all was in fain.He is freed know but it took a long time... It doesn't have to be that way if we truly want to be free and let Jesus help us. I will reply further later all being well.... My husband returned and he doesn't know I am on this site !!!!!! Thanks for your reply Pretoria. I have a (bad?) habit of mixing seriousness and attempted humour in conversation without clearly seperating the two. I enjoy a drink, don't believe I have a problem but then that all depends on your point of view I am not a big fan of religion as such but am a big fan of supporting any person's spiritual connection. I'd love to be free but at the moment am trapped in an ageing body and a chattering mind that struggles to accept either. No doubt I will be free sometime soon in the future but my mind is not to keen on that reality either. My theory is we all want to love each other and connect in a win win sort of relationship but cultural habits/beliefs and the drive to survive seems to override that. all the best
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 13:37:11 GMT -5
Pretoria, Passerby said something about the culture of Victoria. Yes, Victoria may have a conservative culture and all, but culture doesn't necessarily flow over into a Church environment. Here in where I live, the 2x2 culture is unloving, but other churches don't seem to be that way. I have stopped going to 2x2 meetings, and just went to a Bible Students meeting last sunday. THE LOVE WAS PALPATABLE. You could FEEL it in the air. And it was manifested in the faces of the people. THIS IS NOT HOW THE 2X2 CULTURE IS. So, one cannot blame the deadness of a church on the culture of the city the church is in.
I don't buy the elder's wife reasoning. It's the same here. The socializing that's done after meetings (especially Gospel Meetings) is clickish. It's not generally extended to those outside of the cliques that exist in the meetings. Also, I've also had messages passed on to me through other friends via workers. It's weird. Why can't they call themselves? Also, they should visit more often. They don't. There's no excuse for it. My point is not so much to blame or excuse the 'deadness' of a church but to suggest one factor that may contribute to understanding what is going on. Certainly there are lots of loving churches in Melbourne and lots of loving people. I should also point out I was attempting to describe one aspect of the cultural heritage of Melbourne but neglected to note that is ever growing and changing. Ongoing influxes of immigrants to Australia, particularly since the 1950's have brought much more openess to the city (not to mention great coffee and food )
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Post by faune on Feb 27, 2014 15:28:59 GMT -5
Pretoria, Passerby said something about the culture of Victoria. Yes, Victoria may have a conservative culture and all, but culture doesn't necessarily flow over into a Church environment. Here in where I live, the 2x2 culture is unloving, but other churches don't seem to be that way. I have stopped going to 2x2 meetings, and just went to a Bible Students meeting last sunday. THE LOVE WAS PALATABLE. You could FEEL it in the air. And it was manifested in the faces of the people. THIS IS NOT HOW THE 2X2 CULTURE IS. So, one cannot blame the deadness of a church on the culture of the city the church is in. I don't buy the elder's wife reasoning. It's the same here. The socializing that's done after meetings (especially Gospel Meetings) is cliquish. It's not generally extended to those outside of the cliques that exist in the meetings. Also, I've also had messages passed on to me through other friends via workers. It's weird. Why can't they call themselves? Also, they should visit more often. They don't. There's no excuse for it. Embers ~ I can relate to all you shared in your post above. At on time I was in a meeting where you felt loved and welcomed and I moved to an area in 1981 where I felt like an outsider from Day One. That feeling of non-acceptance and coolness remained until I formally left for good one Sunday with no regrets back in 1995. However, what I discovered later within the outside Christian world was so much more worth embracing due to the heartfelt love which was felt among the church members. I never experienced such warmth within the 2x2 fellowship as I did on the outside within these so-called worldly churches. I feel the cliquishness within the fellowship is closely related to this feeling of disconnect along with the Rumor Mill, which keeps people at a distance and things on a more shallow level of communication after meetings.
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embers
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Post by embers on Feb 27, 2014 21:44:16 GMT -5
Faune, You said " I feel the cliquishness within the fellowship is closely related to this feeling of disconnect along with the Rumor Mill, which keeps people at a distance and things on a more shallow level of communication after meetings." I think you've hit on something here. I noticed in February at special meetings, during break, that people were sitting at their own tables, and mingling between tables was almost non-existent. We were sitting with two friends, and their own son came over, stood about ten feet away, and just sort of stared. It was weird. I think it's gotten worse over the years. Or, perhaps it's always been this way and I'm just now noticing it (because of this board???)
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Post by faune on Feb 28, 2014 13:20:32 GMT -5
Passerby ~ My computer seems to be screwing up my posts again or perhaps it's my "chattering mind" hitting all the wrong buttons?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 13:25:51 GMT -5
Passerby ~ My computer seems to be screwing up my posts again or perhaps it's my "chattering mind" hitting all the wrong buttons? Blame your computer, it can't answer back. If your chattering mind is anything like mine best not to converse with it. The keypads are all falling off on my computer - I thinks that is its response - but I can live with that.
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Post by faune on Feb 28, 2014 14:07:47 GMT -5
Faune, You said " I feel the cliquishness within the fellowship is closely related to this feeling of disconnect along with the Rumor Mill, which keeps people at a distance and things on a more shallow level of communication after meetings." I think you've hit on something here. I noticed in February at special meetings, during break, that people were sitting at their own tables, and mingling between tables was almost non-existent. We were sitting with two friends, and their own son came over, stood about ten feet away, and just sort of stared. It was weird. I think it's gotten worse over the years. Or, perhaps it's always been this way and I'm just now noticing it (because of this board???) Embers ~ I feel it might have always been that way and you may be just noticing it now as part of the reality of the fellowship? In my professing days back in New England, we did have some potlucks among the friends and they were fun occasions. We had get-togethers at our home and with other friends within the entire area of Connecticut. However, when I moved South, I rarely got an invite to a friend's home for any shared meal and was pretty much left out of the loop due to a divided home, since my husband stopped professing the same year in 1981. He was put off by the workers' over-involvement in the friends' personal lives and left for good and is now an agnostic/atheist.
Afterwards, I was regarded as an unwelcomed outsider from the Northeast, since we moved South from the New England area and I was viewed as too liberal for their taste, I guess? The lack of acceptance and genuine friendship was something I learned to accept within my new meeting area, which eventually contributed to me making more meaningful connections outside of the faith. I wasn't inclined towards the exclusivity of the faith, so that made my family and me even stand out the more from the start. My last five years within the group was spent more on the periphery of the fold. My meeting attendance slackened over time until I finally said Adios to the group after 30 years of affiliation out of complete boredom and burn-out. Needless to say, I have no desire of going back to life within the fold anytime soon.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 14:30:06 GMT -5
How does it go .. fear seperates, love binds .. or something like that. I guess there is a lot of fear in the group. When there are lots of things you are in denial about, I imagine its crucial to keep up solid boundaries that might challenge you. Like in your case Faune, a divided home is a big threat. Leting in any outsider, well, who knows what they might say!
Strange though. Here we all are yabbering away. I haven't noticed much cliquishness or feelings of disconnect. A bit of a rumour mill I guess (got to admit I don't mind the odd rumour or two) but many wise strong voices keep that from going to hard. Love? Well if not what you call love this forum definitely ooozes with care and compassion. All this and yet we are or were members of the 2by2 group? What is with that? Are we the 'good' ones? Maybe as time passes the fearful are the ones left behind, and so the love within the group is slowly dwindling.
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