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Post by fixit on Feb 28, 2014 14:51:13 GMT -5
How does it go .. fear seperates, love binds .. or something like that. I guess there is a lot of fear in the group. When there are lots of things you are in denial about, I imagine its crucial to keep up solid boundaries that might challenge you. Like in your case Faune, a divided home is a big threat. Leting in any outsider, well, who knows what they might say! Strange though. Here we all are yabbering away. I haven't noticed much cliquishness or feelings of disconnect. A bit of a rumour mill I guess (got to admit I don't mind the odd rumour or two) but many wise strong voices keep that from going to hard. Love? Well if not what you call love this forum definitely ooozes with care and compassion. All this and yet we are or were members of the 2by2 group? What is with that? Are we the 'good' ones? Maybe as time passes the fearful are the ones left behind, and so the love within the group is slowly dwindling. We have widely divergent views, and even very different experience of the fellowship, yet we have much in common due to our connection with the fellowship. I think that will always be with us and part of who we are.
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Post by snow on Feb 28, 2014 14:57:59 GMT -5
How does it go .. fear seperates, love binds .. or something like that. I guess there is a lot of fear in the group. When there are lots of things you are in denial about, I imagine its crucial to keep up solid boundaries that might challenge you. Like in your case Faune, a divided home is a big threat. Leting in any outsider, well, who knows what they might say! Strange though. Here we all are yabbering away. I haven't noticed much cliquishness or feelings of disconnect. A bit of a rumour mill I guess (got to admit I don't mind the odd rumour or two) but many wise strong voices keep that from going to hard. Love? Well if not what you call love this forum definitely ooozes with care and compassion. All this and yet we are or were members of the 2by2 group? What is with that? Are we the 'good' ones? Maybe as time passes the fearful are the ones left behind, and so the love within the group is slowly dwindling. We have widely divergent views, and even very different experience of the fellowship, yet we have much in common due to our connection with the fellowship. I think that will always be with us and part of who we are. I agree that is our connection and will always have some impact on our lives. I think those who are not exclusive and just want to be 'love' show up here the most often. We are totally a very diverse group, but we seem to share compassion for each other in common. The TMB family doesn't always agree, but I think most of the time they do try to be respectful of each other and the diverse beliefs we bring here. That's a micro version of how I'd like to see the world. Love and compassion for each other because that is what works to unite us.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 16:01:00 GMT -5
The questioned ask in this tread is one my husband ask ourselves over and over again the last 5 years we where in meeting. Love show by most w/f is very scarce. What they don't seem to understand is to have a true and meaningful relationship with others that allows for fellowship you have to put your self out there and be willing to be hurt. Most have never been outside there own little area or family. Most worker were put in the work before they were mature. Most were raised by worker worshiper parents. Most were raised in clique of family and friends.
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Post by snow on Feb 28, 2014 17:10:43 GMT -5
The questioned ask in this tread is one my husband ask ourselves over and over again the last 5 years we where in meeting. Love show by most w/f is very scarce. What they don't seem to understand is to have a true and meaningful relationship with others that allows for fellowship you have to put your self out there and be willing to be hurt. Most have never been outside there own little area or family. Most worker were put in the work before they were mature. Most were raised by worker worshiper parents. Most were raised in clique of family and friends. That's true. But just because you have worker worshiper parents doesn't mean you have to buy into their mindset. I had worker worshiper parents and I quit professing at 12 when things started to look like they weren't how I wanted to live my life. I was/am a seeker with lots of questions and one thing the workers are not able to do is answer questions effectively.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 18:05:54 GMT -5
Yes it's a gift of God witch can not be hidden away ,it's there or it is not. I want to find it with all my heart and I know God will help me. I am disappointed that I have not seen much evidence of it in the meetings that I have attended.I can only speak like you have said about what I have experienced there might be fields where the Love of God is manifested.And I am sure that this problem isn't unique just to the meeting. But I would rather be warned this side of the grave that I am lacking then on the other side. Yesterday I took the plunge and actually told a elders wife that I didn't feel love in the meeting ,I clearly told her that I am not judging but that I don't see the fruit. I also made it clear to her that I don't know much about that love myself but would love to learn about that love from my brothers and sisters in the truth.She was very defensive and she could not understand why I felt that way. I told her the things that I would have expected from brothers and sisters that have the love of God like I have mentioned in a earlier post. Her excuse was that people perceived us as private because we left early after meetings and that is the reason why they haven't showed much interest.I wasn't buying that excuse ,if one really had the love of God one would not make excuses why you could not show interest in a member of the body of Christ. She said the Wednesday elder and his wife phoned them to ask about us seeing we have never been in there Wednesday meeting since we arrived in the field. Mmmm , how funny that they can't call us directly and ask how we are doing or even invite us for a cold cup of water if they had the love of God and was so interested in is ? I told her also that we haven't heard of the workers in our field for 5 months ,she said they had a big field. I told her that we have been in bigger fields where the workers got around to us at least every 3 months.Bottom line is that she didn't seem to understand the Godly love that I was referring to like Jesus mentioned in the parable about the Good Samara than. Thanks for your reply embers. I think the love shown by those in meetings does vary by region. I have always felt a lot of love, and it's probably the main reason still go to meetings. How long have you been in this field? I wouldn't discount her "perceiving you as being private" as just a bad excuse. It could be a touchy situation calling up people and asking if they're OK, as doing that could also cause someone to be offended (if you don't have a long-standing, close relationship). And if you never go to meeting on Wednesdays maybe they just respect that as a personal choice, and don't want to get into the judgmental "why aren't you coming on Wednesdays?" questions. Perhaps they don't want to get into the guilt-trip game that professing people have often been accused of. I just think it's hard for people to know exactly how others would wish for them to act. Sometimes you're darned if you do, darned if you don't.
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Post by fixit on Mar 1, 2014 18:15:48 GMT -5
I was/am a seeker with lots of questions and one thing the workers are not able to do is answer questions effectively. The lack of openness and accountability and honesty is responsible for most of the issues that need addressing in the fellowship and ministry. Change for the better would result as soon as there was widespread acknowledgement of that. Will it ever happen? I hope so, but I doubt it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 18:20:21 GMT -5
We have been in this field for 8 months. And this elders wife have invited us over and we have invited them over.So they know we aren't so private that we don't want any contact and she could have have helped those right that might have felt that we are so private.My husband have been without work since we came to this field and we feel that people in the meetings would rather avoid us then get to close to us and have to help us maybe. Love is going to have loving caring actions no matter what the consequences that is how Godly love is described in the Bible I read.This elders wife also said that she takes caring for people's souls as "love in action". Jesus made it very clear that Godly love includes physical actions as He stated in the parable of the Good Samar than and also stated clearly in His own life on earth.I John 17-24 makes is very clear to. As part of the body of Christ we are going to have empathy with each others pain and sorrows and we are going to act in a loving caring way automatically.The love of God can not be hid away ,it's there or it is not. And by God's grace I am going to find it.
I appreciate all the feed back. And I am so glad that you are feeling the love of God in the field that you are in.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 1, 2014 19:19:10 GMT -5
We have been in this field for 8 months. And this elders wife have invited us over and we have invited them over.So they know we aren't so private that we don't want any contact and she could have have helped those right that might have felt that we are so private.My husband have been without work since we came to this field and we feel that people in the meetings would rather avoid us then get to close to us and have to help us maybe. Love is going to have loving caring actions no matter what the consequences that is how Godly love is described in the Bible I read.This elders wife also said that she takes caring for people's souls as "love in action". Jesus made it very clear that Godly love includes physical actions as He stated in the parable of the Good Samar than and also stated clearly in His own life on earth.I John 17-24 makes is very clear to. As part of the body of Christ we are going to have empathy with each others pain and sorrows and we are going to act in a loving caring way automatically.The love of God can not be hid away ,it's there or it is not. And by God's grace I am going to find it. And you may find it… in the place you least expect it. If people are not as warm/welcoming/supportive of you as you would like – it is not all about you, it is always about them. In my exiting years, there were some couples in the 2X2’s, who made a real effort to connect with us, and to do things with us. I kept a distance, feeling like the lepers walking around saying “Unclean, unclean!”. I knew that for the space I was in at that time, and the thoughts that were going through my head, I could not possibly be a healthy influence on anyone. It is never about you. You would be shocked at how little you actually appear on other peoples’ radar screens. A Dr Philism that I love “If you have a hole in your heart, the quickest way to fill it is to give away what you wish you had had.” I know this to be true.
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Post by timber on Mar 1, 2014 21:21:17 GMT -5
Ah yes. I remember the response when it was known that I had been laid off from my job. One person said - You must have done something wrong. Very very few of the friends contacted us to see how we were doing during the layoff. Perhaps they figured that family was taking care of us (which they certainly did).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 5:30:37 GMT -5
And you may find it… in the place you least expect it. If people are not as warm/welcoming/supportive of you as you would like – it is not all about you, it is always about them.In my exiting years, there were some couples in the 2X2’s, who made a real effort to connect with us, and to do things with us. I kept a distance, feeling like the lepers walking around saying “Unclean, unclean!”. I knew that for the space I was in at that time, and the thoughts that were going through my head, I could not possibly be a healthy influence on anyone. It is never about you. You would be shocked at how little you actually appear on other peoples’ radar screens. A Dr Philism that I love “If you have a hole in your heart, the quickest way to fill it is to give away what you wish you had had.” I know this to be true. Much as I hate to admit it, Dr philistine has decent things to say occassionally and your quote was one of them. Not sure about the bolded comment though. How can your judgement/perception of someone's lack be all about them? That sounds like a tautology to me. Everything we perceive is relative to ourselves. Theory of relativity dealt with that one IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 7:46:59 GMT -5
I have to say that I can't say I have never felt Godly love in the meetings but few and far between.And like I have said I am sure this isn't unique just in the meetings, people are going to disappoint us and we them. And once again I am not judging but if the fruit is not there it isn't. Bottom line is if I get this Godly love (and threw God's grace I will) I will love unconditionally and would not be worried about the love not shown to me. Like a little child it will bother me for the present moment but I would not dwell on it ,it won't effect my love. My little girl would ask me " Mommy don't you love me any more ?" if she feels my actions or words are not loving and kind. She would soon forget this because of my loving and caring actions towards her. I can't speak for a little child that constantly has to deal with a parent that is not loving towards them.
Thanks for all the replies. Passerby ,I am relieved you where only joking about the alcoholic bit! Yes ,I am sure that in smaller communities people tend to be closer to each other and not so rushed. The bushman tribe in South Africa is known as a simple,kind type of tribe, sounds like my type of tribe !
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Post by bluejay on Mar 2, 2014 13:45:57 GMT -5
I am I supposed to wonder if my brother and sister in the meeting loves me or would it be clear in there actions ? If it was for the lack of feeling loved in the meetings I would have quit going long time ago. I have been in the meetings for 40 plus years and as far as I can remember I have never felt any genuine love. Good morning pretoria, I've been away from these message boards for a long, long time. Procrastination with shovelling snow this morning prompted me to sneak in and take a look. Your post grabbed my attention immediately. Many years ago I posted a link to a youtube video that I believe explains very well what genuine Christian love will look like. Either inside or outside of meetings. I love the song so much that I've pretty much got the words branded in to my brain. Whenever I'm on the giving or receiving end of behavior that doesn't sit quite right in my spirit, I can reference back to these words. It's a GREAT self check for me when my human nature wants to take over. Actions do sometimes speak louder than words. It can certainly hurt when we don't feel loved or appreciated. The God of my understanding wants me to feel joy and freedom in my spiritual worship and studies. When I last followed the boards I was told that things were changing within the fellowship. Would it be possible for you to attend another meeting where you might feel more support? Here's the link to the video. My rusty posting skills will be put to the test now!!
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Post by swarupa on Mar 2, 2014 14:22:34 GMT -5
Dear Pat, how do u look at others in your home mtg. do u show honest love in your hug or handshake. You can show your love in your fellowship to those in your meeting. You can call them during the week and ask how they are doing, or what can you do for them, you will be surprised how thankful they will be. Also, that they will start doing the same to yourself and others in your little mtg. A word of encouragement can be so appreciated.
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Post by swarupa on Mar 2, 2014 14:25:58 GMT -5
We are so quick to judge what others may think about. The key to this , how do we look at others, is it a critical eye, or a loving , helpful love action to those in our meetings. It is not others that we worship, it is our time to spend time with others in love and thankfulness to the God we worship, in love, and appreciation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 14:37:27 GMT -5
Some in "truth" show conditional love-I love you IF you fit in and fill your place. The culture of the first Irish workers (early 1900s Victorian era in Britain) was a very reserved and aloof era. The early friends idolized these early workers and emulated their behavior at time..
Many here say that OTHER people didn't show love. I have to include myself into the mix before the Lord opened my eyes in 1997. I am pprobably the only person here who will admit that I didn't show the love in my younger exclusive professing days either. I am very ashamed of my past attitudes and behavior in the Truth say 20 years ago. Most people on TMB act like they weren't cold and aloof but other people were. I was just as bad as the rest until I found VOT October of 1997 and my life has never been the same. So it wasn't just THEM, I didn't know how to communicate or interact. My social skills were poor. Low self esteem in those days. Many servants and saints are and were POOR communicators. I hate the staring, awkward silence, poor listening skills, etc.. There are elements of the system that made me the person I was back in the mid 1990s. In a job evaluation in 1996, I was listed as standoffish which really hurt my self esteem. The system restricts who you can have fellowship with and where you can have fellowship. Too many close connections to the group. The closer you are to the friends, the easier it is for them to HURT YOU. There are bullies and if you get too close to them, they can and will hurt you. And i will admit to bullying a bit. It is really tough when most of the meeting folks are kin folks. Spiritual bullies are weak people who find a weaker person to walk over. Some people USE people to advance their power in the little meeting. These problems occur in any group where there is limited recourse and free expression is stifled. Some countries are run in the same fashion...secrecy, class divisions, unquestioning loyalty expected etc. Healthy groups are open, have free expression, limited powers and democracy. And a council needs to protect members from abuse. Good communication skills, openess and some fresh blood would go a long ways in correcting the problems in some of these archaic social units.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 5:54:26 GMT -5
Great post Walker, I can relate. Letting people get close to you can lead to emotional abuse, especially if you are the vunerable type. It was generally the kinfolk that were close to my family in my youth and they were (or at least some) the abusive ones. The standards of the 2by2 group were perfect fodder for self righteous bullies to use against the weaker ones amongst the relatives. One of my parents just let out the other day a comment from a relative "I don't want my children to turn out like yours have" years ago. I was probably the fodder in that case but anyway, where is the love and compassion in that statement? I can understand the need for many of the friends to keep their lives private, to prevent knowledge of anything that can be used against them in such a way. Like you say it can happen anywhere so maybe its not 2by2ism to blame for the lack of love and compassion but rather for failing to provide a culture that fights against the tendency. I can relate to be judged standoffish, been called similar myself many times.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 13:48:45 GMT -5
I am I supposed to wonder if my brother and sister in the meeting loves me or would it be clear in there actions ? If it was for the lack of feeling loved in the meetings I would have quit going long time ago. I have been in the meetings for 40 plus years and as far as I can remember I have never felt any genuine love. . ... .. . ..there are many many people in this world who do not feel love or who do not feel adequately loved ... why this is varies---in some cases they feel so bad about themselves they do not feel they deserve love and therefore assume/presume no one loves them ---in other cases there is perhaps love but a lack of SHOWING love or an inability to show love ----in yet other cases there truly is not real love between two parties --in yet other cases there is sort of a fake showing of love that is more like a dutiful curteousy then genuine love i really do believe that many people are uncomfortable reaching out and showing love; they feel awkward .. my father and my father's father both struggled with this .. luckily, my father was able to articulate about this lack of showing love and told he loved us often, but was also in a way telling us that he knew there was sometimes a lack in SHOWING it some people are what we call very 'guarded' in relation to showing affection and love --- it might be how they were raised and/or part of their culture and unfortunately, these tendencies do get passed down in families ---in the situations of the meetings, there is a certain 'formality' for lack of a better word, in which is may contribute to people acting perfectly and being perfectly proper and curteous rather than freely showing love .. .... . .. i take it as a personal challenge of mine to try to prove people WRONG who do not feel they are lovable .. . there are those who are easy to love and those who are not so easy to love
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 0:39:12 GMT -5
Thanks bluejay ,your link didn't come threw though. Maybe you could try again,a special song is like the wind beneath the wings and as you said keep us in check. In a previous field we did ask to be moved to another meeting just to discover that meetings will be meetings. If I want to see a change in the meetings I will have to be that change !
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Post by fixit on Mar 4, 2014 0:45:42 GMT -5
Like you say it can happen anywhere so maybe its not 2by2ism to blame for the lack of love and compassion but rather for failing to provide a culture that fights against the tendency. That may often be the case. Well said.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 0:51:33 GMT -5
Yes I hear what you say and that is true from a human perspective but if we have God's love it will go above and beyond human expectations. And with His love we can love the unlovable! I had a co worker at work that was a unlovable character but after a while I changed my feelings towards her and started to greet her in the mornings and actually engaged in a conversation with her. Mmm I surprised myself and that just with a little human kindness ,just imagine what I could do having God's love ....
Thanks for your feedback psychichic.
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Post by quizzer on Mar 4, 2014 3:51:59 GMT -5
Dear Pat, how do u look at others in your home mtg. do u show honest love in your hug or handshake. You can show your love in your fellowship to those in your meeting. You can call them during the week and ask how they are doing, or what can you do for them, you will be surprised how thankful they will be. Also, that they will start doing the same to yourself and others in your little mtg. A word of encouragement can be so appreciated. I tried this - by reaching out during some crisis in my area, trying to ensure that 2x2s were okay. Once, it back-fired so that I was the bad guy for receiving some positive feedback from those I contacted (got too much attention). Another time, a couple of hearty 2x2s returned the favor by asking me to fix several things that they found wrong in my life. Sooo....I learned my lesson. No good deed goes unpunished.
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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2014 12:31:00 GMT -5
Dear Pat, how do u look at others in your home mtg. do u show honest love in your hug or handshake. You can show your love in your fellowship to those in your meeting. You can call them during the week and ask how they are doing, or what can you do for them, you will be surprised how thankful they will be. Also, that they will start doing the same to yourself and others in your little mtg. A word of encouragement can be so appreciated. I tried this - by reaching out during some crisis in my area, trying to ensure that 2x2s were okay. Once, it back-fired so that I was the bad guy for receiving some positive feedback from those I contacted (got too much attention). Another time, a couple of hearty 2x2s returned the favor by asking me to fix several things that they found wrong in my life. Sooo....I learned my lesson. No good deed goes unpunished. Sometimes when we try to help we make people resentful, feel like they owe us, or feel because we saw a need we judged them and found them wanting. They usually respond by finding something wrong with us then or just plain getting upset.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 12:38:28 GMT -5
What is the business 'god's love'?
Like I mean its all just words we attribute to some concept and love gets tacked onto or included in a lot of different ones, what is different about 'god's love'?
Pretoria provided a clear list of examples on the first page of this thread of what I would term care and compassion. Thats something that I certainly understand and have seen exhibited from all sorts of people all over the world. I have seen care and compassion shown by people to others when they didn't even know the person, even were not there to see the outcome.
Next is this love thing, which by some miracle I've ended up with a wife and children that show it to me so I'm starting to get that. Indeed I think a dog I had many years ago that started that lesson and I'm pretty sure I've observed others have that state of being/feeling (?) for animals. We can talk about loving a place or a thing and that seems somewhat linked.
What about the whole falling in love drug, romantic love, which my wife well terms the limerance period. That seems to be about what the other sees in us as much as what we see in them or feel for them. Not lasting either really. It can metamorphose into love I guess. Bit like the ugly caterpillar turning into a butterfly really.
I assume none of the above are 'god's love'. Is it all of them on 'roids? Biology suggests there is no such thing as altruism, rather the selfish gene beats all. I can just about accept this and match it with the different kinds of love mentioned above that I have encountered in my life. Is 'god's love' a love that transcends this? Why haven't I experienced or seen it yet?
I have mostly heard people use the term 'god's love' in words to the effect: I am so lucky to have god's love in my life. To me that kinda links it to a deep feeling of acceptance and being loved. Fair enough, and all power to them, but if they have it in their lives does that mean they are different?
One idea that resonates for me is that you can't love unless you love yourself. Maybe even the degree of love you can show is dependent on the degree to which you love yourself. Is that 'god's love'? A deep sense of loving yourself, of acceptance, of care and compassion for who and what you are. Not ego or pride. Having that I guess its a small step to having the same feeling/state of being for other people, living organisms, things and place. Now if that is 'god's love' well I am all for it. I've seen it in the far distance on occassion, am chasing it like I've chased nothing else and realised some time back thats what I have always been seeking.
As far as the 2by2 group goes, well I did see a lot of care and compassion. Reflecting back I do think there was a bit of 'god's love' - as per my definition above - going around but certainly not more than anywhere else in this world. I almost go to the extent to suggest that 2by2 culture and thinking fights against that or at least for many leads them away from it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 14:08:58 GMT -5
Mmmm ,if they profess to be Christians they should automatically have the love Jesus talks about in the parable of the Good Samara-than. And oh my I do have a lot bto learn about that love that is described somewhere in Corinthians. If I had that love it probably would not upset me so much to see others not having it, I would just love unconditionally. And we know if we don't have Godly love we are nothing. I have more a human love,if someone shows kindness to me I will be kind in return but oh boy if I don't see love from others especially in the meetings I can spend many a hour grumbling about it instead of trying to work that Godly love in my own life. Thanks for all the responses. Thankyou for your reply Pretoria. I apologise for confusing my post with my difficulties in understanding love. I do not assume they are yours. You earlier post was so clear as to your expectations and those expectations were so reasonable and right. I think I understand, my experience of the fellowhip I enjoyed in the 2by2's were much the same. In Melbourne, Victoria, Australia where I grew up the cultural heritage is very much british, reserved, conservative, self-contained, well mannered and polite to a fault. Its not just the 2by2's that don't show care and compassion, its a cultural trait of the city. I have lived in other areas of Australia where the cultural heritage is different. For example, I have lived in a small town where the current status and background was poverty, oppression, underclass. The people there would ask to help and help even if you said no. They would share their last meal with you. They might not mind their p's and q's, swear like you wouldn't believe, drink like a fish in a desert, abuse you no end (its aussie particularly male culture to abuse your friends, but they'd go the extra mile any day of the week. And they were about as irreligious as you could find. I don't know where to put these experiences Pretoria. There was something lovely about the 2by2 fellowship in my home town but it definitely lacked what you have so well identified. There is something lovely about the small town culture of helping each other. Both have their dark side. If the two could combine it would be nice, but oil and water. I live in a small town. I am learning to be open to the help of my neighbours and learning to help. I am trying not to become an alcoholic and not to abuse my friends as a form of affection. I'm not doing so well on the alcohol bit ... .. . Seems like there can be two extremes at times ... Too much attention or not enough .. Small towns are rife with everybody knowing when you last took a bath ... Everyone knowing everyone's business .. But when there is a real need or tragedy the people really rally around.. My experience in the meetings has been much the same
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 3:07:36 GMT -5
And you may find it… in the place you least expect it. If people are not as warm/welcoming/supportive of you as you would like – it is not all about you, it is always about them.In my exiting years, there were some couples in the 2X2’s, who made a real effort to connect with us, and to do things with us. I kept a distance, feeling like the lepers walking around saying “Unclean, unclean!”. I knew that for the space I was in at that time, and the thoughts that were going through my head, I could not possibly be a healthy influence on anyone. It is never about you. You would be shocked at how little you actually appear on other peoples’ radar screens. A Dr Philism that I love “If you have a hole in your heart, the quickest way to fill it is to give away what you wish you had had.” I know this to be true. Much as I hate to admit it, Dr philistine has decent things to say occassionally and your quote was one of them. Not sure about the bolded comment though. How can your judgement/perception of someone's lack be all about them? That sounds like a tautology to me. Everything we perceive is relative to ourselves. Theory of relativity dealt with that one IMO. On reflection my literal interpretation took your comments out of context. I have seen the light, you were right.
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Post by fixit on Mar 5, 2014 4:08:07 GMT -5
As far as the 2by2 group goes, well I did see a lot of care and compassion. Reflecting back I do think there was a bit of 'god's love' - as per my definition above - going around but certainly not more than anywhere else in this world. I almost go to the extent to suggest that 2by2 culture and thinking fights against that or at least for many leads them away from it.You might be right. Anything that seems different from main stream thinking or behavior is opposed "in the interest of the Kingdom" (i.e. our organization) and in doing so we oppose what Christ taught. Could it be that Christ's teaching for individuals is incompatible with organisational politics?
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 5, 2014 8:45:52 GMT -5
It seems to be the human condition, that when you are "outside" a certain group you were a part of once, the other group has a hard time to show love and acceptance. This is true in many realms, not restricted to religion. One of the guards at Stony Mountain federal prison here in Manitoba, mentioned the other day, that of the 545 inmates he estimated about 100 of them get visitors. The rest are kinda written off . There is a program called "open circle" which people from the outside and the inside need to register on, that they would like to visit or have visitors. He said there were inmates inside that have been on the program for a few years requesting, or open for a visit , and have had no visitors. I AM GUILTY too of the human condition . It, in no way justifies the shunning that takes place after meeting exit, but it makes it a little more understandable, for me. FEAR and prejudice etc. is a big motivator of our actions. Some people are "fearful" and prejudiced , of women as pilots of aeroplanes as evidenced by a note left on a WestJet plane this week by a passenger safely flown to his destination by a woman captain , but still felt the next time he knew it was a woman captain , he would choose another flight. His fear and prejudice , unjustified of course, motivates his actions, and very similar to some letters we have received it was signed , "respectfully in love", but basically meaning " we don't want anything to do with you anymore." www.newstrick.com/2014/03/travellers-pens-shocking-note-to-carey.html Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 11:17:10 GMT -5
As far as the 2by2 group goes, well I did see a lot of care and compassion. Reflecting back I do think there was a bit of 'god's love' - as per my definition above - going around but certainly not more than anywhere else in this world. I almost go to the extent to suggest that 2by2 culture and thinking fights against that or at least for many leads them away from it.You might be right. Anything that seems different from main stream thinking or behavior is opposed "in the interest of the Kingdom" (i.e. our organization) and in doing so we oppose what Christ taught. Could it be that Christ's teaching for individuals is incompatible with organisational politics? Now you have gone and thrown another kind of love in there Fixit, to confuse the issue What you wrote makes sense to me. Christ's message seems to be craft our meaning around loving one another, showing compassion. So, ideally, the purpose of any organisation would be to facillitate that process occurring. Unfortunately, whatever the original purpose, organisaions seem to quickly become focused on self-perpetuation. I have observed that continually in welfare organisations. The original purpose, to support individuals, is rapidly superseded by a new purpose: to survive and grow. The new purpose is justified on the basis that the organisation will be able to do a better job of the original purpose. In reality to do a good job of the new purpose a poor job is done of the original purpose. In Australia, for example, with the privatization of welfare great organisations like the Salvos have lost much of their compassion at a street level. Individuals within this organisation fight this trend, thus becoming at odds with the organisaion. It seems completely contradictory to what welfare should be about which is removing the need for its existence in the first place. I find it really hard to view 2by2 culture/organisation as having any other purpose than self-perpetuation. Thus, while the people within the group have an ideal of being loving and compassionate there is no real avenue for that to occur on an organisational basis.
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