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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 23, 2014 12:49:15 GMT -5
No website can be blamed for people leaving the fellowship.
The blame (if leaving because of the history of the church) is on those who lied to the members, and therefore those members lost all trust and respect in those false preachers who perpetuated that lie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 13:19:22 GMT -5
TTT website has caused many friends and some workers around the world to leave the fellowship because they believe the workers have lied to them about 2x2 apostolic Itinerant New Testament does not go back to Galilee but founded by William Irvine. It began and found by William in 1897. Our fellowship is ONLY 115 yrs old. Blaming TTT for folks to leaving the fellowship!!!! --- When is 2x2ism going to accept their own responsibility for the mess that their fellowship has gotten itself into? The only function that TTT has had in it all to to shine a light on the mess that 2x2ism has made itself, and then so desperatley tries to keep in darkness. Jesus very clearly gave us all the duty to enlighten when things are kept in darkness -- He gave us all the privelage of being 'a light to the world' -- Hardly is there a darker spot on this earth than 2x2ism.
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Post by Mary on Jan 23, 2014 14:21:13 GMT -5
you are talking about other churches not the 2x2s Nathan. TTT talks about the history of the 2x2s. It is not talking about other groups that also go out itinerant and 2x2. It is like talking about the history of the Baptist and point to other churches such as the Methodist.
It is good that TTT tells people the truth. Nothing wrong with telling the truth but everything wrong with lying about it. The 2x2s are not a continuation of Jesus apostolic ministry. It is a church started up by a man named William Irvine 115 years ago. It is no more Jesus apostolic ministry than any other church. All they did was to try and copy from their interpretation of the Bible what they thought was similar to how Jesus sent the apostles. In doing so they lose the work of the Holy Spirit and end up with a man made church and ministry.
Your statement tries to suggest that the workers were part of Jesus' apostolic ministry and it is also misleading to connect the workers to the Waldensians who were nothing to do with the workers. The Faith Mission is what Irvine was a part of and he went out on his own from there.
Teaching that Jesus had an itinerant ministry and saying we are a continuation of it are 2 different things. The workers taught that they were a continuation of it. It would be better to say that there have always been men and women who have gone out itinerant like you believe the apostles went and the workers have also tried to go out the same way. Nothing to do with any continuation or connection with these groups or the apostles.
True Christianity focuses on Jesus not trying to go out itinerant of which the workers do not anyway. They are not wandering preachers. They are given a place to go and stay in the city where they are told to go. Hardly wandering itinerant preachers.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 23, 2014 14:30:06 GMT -5
No website can be blamed for people leaving the fellowship. The blame (if leaving because of the history of the church) is on those who lied to the members, and therefore those members lost all trust and respect in those false preachers who perpetuated that lie. That is not NOT true.... many on TMB have mentioned TTT website have played a great role in them leaving the fellowship because of the information, history on TTT website. The workers have NOT told the friends lies about 2x2 teachings of Jesus apostolic New Testament goes back to Jesus and apostles. I believe TTT have mislead people, for yrs there was no mentioned of William Irvine, John Long, and the early workers were returning or following Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry. They did NOT start some new workers teachings idea or a Cult at all. Thanks, goodness for John Long's Journal has helped us to understand how some of them came together from his side of the early history.William Irvine beginning 1898/his sister/Living witness doctrine. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=baby&action=display&thread=99 I agree that a lot of people make decisions on information they receive. However, it is the decisions they make after having information (irregardless of where they get it) that determines their course of action. YES.... some of the workers have lied about the history of the fellowship. I grew up in Washington state and listened to workers claiming that the fellowship went back to the shores of Galilee. Perhaps your experience is different, but that was mine. From what I have been reading, they don't do this much any more, as they have been caught in that lie, and know that they can't get away with it anymore, at least with those who have read about the history. I think that the history of the fellowship is very interesting. I don't understand why they don't embrace that history as other denomination do. It is pretty fascinating actually, and if people know how the fellowship started, I think that they would be just fine with that. In fact, it would give them something to discuss with other people concerning church history. The workers really need to quit treating people as if they can't handle the truth, and let them know just what is going on in the church.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 14:32:01 GMT -5
The workers had plenty of time to eliminate any concerns people had about the history......long before the TTT was even thought about. Instead of burning the Secret Sect, they should have made it recommended reading by all friends, or at the very least, have local workers in each field explain the history to the friends there. Had they done that, very few would have left and they wouldn't have to be shocked by the truth of a web site that the workers called all lies.
It's not the history that caused people to leave, it was the lack of honesty and transparency about it. The TTT can't be blamed for anything like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 14:50:57 GMT -5
Spiritual bullying, regional differences/standards, secrecy, covering up facts (CSA or the origins of the Truth)etc.. became apparent with the websites. People in ANY group need to know the origins and practices of the group.
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Post by faune on Jan 23, 2014 15:17:46 GMT -5
you are talking about other churches not the 2x2s Nathan. TTT talks about the history of the 2x2s. It is not talking about other groups that also go out itinerant and 2x2. It is like talking about the history of the Baptist and point to other churches such as the Methodist. It is good that TTT tells people the truth. Nothing wrong with telling the truth but everything wrong with lying about it. The 2x2s are not a continuation of Jesus apostolic ministry. It is a church started up by a man named William Irvine 115 years ago. It is no more Jesus apostolic ministry than any other church. All they did was to try and copy from their interpretation of the Bible what they thought was similar to how Jesus sent the apostles. In doing so they lose the work of the Holy Spirit and end up with a man made church and ministry. Your statement tries to suggest that the workers were part of Jesus' apostolic ministry and it is also misleading to connect the workers to the Waldensians who were nothing to do with the workers. The Faith Mission is what Irvine was a part of and he went out on his own from there. Teaching that Jesus had an itinerant ministry and saying we are a continuation of it are 2 different things. The workers taught that they were a continuation of it. It would be better to say that there have always been men and women who have gone out itinerant like you believe the apostles went and the workers have also tried to go out the same way. Nothing to do with any continuation or connection with these groups or the apostles. True Christianity focuses on Jesus not trying to go out itinerant of which the workers do not anyway. They are not wandering preachers. They are given a place to go and stay in the city where they are told to go. Hardly wandering itinerant preachers. Mary ~ I agree with everything you shared above, which is the real truth about the 2x2 fellowship and its origin and teachings. If people would only be honest with themselves and admit that the real focus is on the workers and the 2x2 ministry and not on Jesus and what concepts He actually taught ~ which was the lacking ingredient in the bread presented. Much like bread without yeast as the leavening agent! It' no wonder it left people feeling empty after the meeting was over and spiritually starved for more? Perhaps this link better describes the feeling in a nutshell regarding that verse from Galatians 5:9 below. When you change the rightful focus from Jesus to the workers, you change the whole meaning of Christianity altogether, placing the workers as the real mediator or instrument of their salvation rather than Jesus. To add to this scenario, you are doomed to damnation if you ever leave the fold, which is well ingrained into the members to keep them within the fold and under the workers' control.
www.godvine.com/bible/galatians/5-9
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 15:58:35 GMT -5
The workers had plenty of time to eliminate any concerns people had about the history......long before the TTT was even thought about. Instead of burning the Secret Sect, they should have made it recommended reading by all friends, or at the very least, have local workers in each field explain the history to the friends there. Had they done that, very few would have left and they wouldn't have to be shocked by the truth of a web site that the workers called all lies. It's not the history that caused people to leave, it was the lack of honesty and transparency about it. The TTT can't be blamed for anything like that. The Secret Sect book was written many years before John Long's Journal was posted on TTT website. John Long gave a good picture of the beginning according to him. The people who gave the information to write the Secret Sect book were NOT there in the beginning like John Long or Goodhand early days account. The picture is not complete..... The workers should read John Long Journal and Goodhand account of the early days, know the church history and let the Spirit reveals these things to when the friends ask them questions. Encourage the friends to do their own research, pray to God about it and asking the Holy Spirit to reveal His Truth to them.
For many years, hardly anyone worker knows about William Irvine early days with the Faith Mission, John Long's Journal or Goodhand early days account. So, the workers didn't know how to answer questions after the friends read the information on the TTT website about William Irvine as the Founder. I believe many workers are more prepare, and well informed about William Irvine history, CSA problems these days than 20-30 yrs ago.
Nathan, the story still isn't "complete". There are still unanswered questions about how Irvine et al got it all going. That's not the problem nor would it have been an impediment to the workers getting the basic story out there in 1980 or so. Most people aren't interested in all the details, at most would have appreciated hearing about is that Irvine and others got started in their ministry around 1897 and a few other bits of information. No big deal, and plenty of information was available in the 1970's and 80's to do that. But they didn't and we lost lots of workers around here in the 1980's over the history. Even in 1991, I recall sitting in a gospel mtg where the speaker said, "First of all, I want to make it clear that we are not a cult, and that we did not start in 1897." I wonder how many people quit when they found out the truth and remembered his words? Lots I expect. The workers still don't answer the history question with candor. By not being honest, transparent and informative on this question, they continue to destroy their own work in 2014.
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Post by hotrod on Jan 23, 2014 16:00:59 GMT -5
Okay so lets see a head count of members here. How many of you quit the fellowship because of a website? I suspect that most folks were troubled with what they were seeing and were on the way out before going to the website. The website only helped to validate what they already knew. JMO
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 16:32:17 GMT -5
Edgar, we know there are bad, unwise, stubborn workers among us that need to be removed from the ministry or give a lesser place in the ministry. There are tares among us, need to be removed. There are many good workers and friends in our fellowship, who are loving and caring people. There are MANY good church elders, and good friends among us who disagree fiercely on how the Canadian workers mistreated Chau and Hoa and the golden friends. Don't throw the baby with the bath water, Edgar. You were a good worker when you were in the work, right? Nathan I agree with you that there are many good workers and friends within 2x2ism .. That is one of the things that is so serious about 2x2ism and its effect on the people it touches -- It has such an enormous corruptive influence on all those that get sucked into its core. I remember Dale Shultz as a companion 40 years ago or so -- and the Dale I remember then was a wonderful man with admirable purpose and a humble heart -- we had great days together -- Look at him today!! One of the prime movers of the misery and ungodliness in Vietnam! I also knew Morris Grovums when he professed in Saskatoon 1963-64 -- And was his companion in 1973 before coming to Sweden. My memories of him at that time were also good ones. Look at him today!!! The closer folks get to the heart of 2x2ism the more self-righteous they become -- the less interest they have in compassion, forgiveness and mercy -- the easier they find it to bend the truth fit their fancy and to protect their organization -- and the more frustrated they get with folks that refuse to regard them as superior before God over the lowly folks around them. One of the reasons 2x2ism is such an abomination for many, is its capacity to take the most wonderful of people and turn them into hard hearted despots, insensitive to the feelings of anyone around them. The end result of it all is the horrible messes like Vietnam, and Alberta and countless other complete meltdowns of every honorable Christian principle.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 23, 2014 16:32:44 GMT -5
The workers had plenty of time to eliminate any concerns people had about the history......long before the TTT was even thought about. Instead of burning the Secret Sect, they should have made it recommended reading by all friends, or at the very least, have local workers in each field explain the history to the friends there. Had they done that, very few would have left and they wouldn't have to be shocked by the truth of a web site that the workers called all lies. It's not the history that caused people to leave, it was the lack of honesty and transparency about it. The TTT can't be blamed for anything like that. The Secret Sect book was written many years before John Long's Journal was posted on TTT website. John Long gave a good picture of the beginning according to him. The people who gave the information to write the Secret Sect book were NOT there in the beginning like John Long or Goodhand early days account. The picture is not complete..... The workers should read John Long Journal and Goodhand account of the early days, know the church history and let the Spirit reveals these things to when the friends ask them questions. Encourage the friends to do their own research, pray to God about it and asking the Holy Spirit to reveal His Truth to them.
For many years, hardly anyone worker knows about William Irvine early days with the Faith Mission, John Long's Journal or Goodhand early days account. So, the workers didn't know how to answer questions after the friends read the information on the TTT website about William Irvine as the Founder. I believe many workers are more prepare, and well informed about William Irvine history, CSA problems these days than 20-30 yrs ago.
For many years, hardly anyone worker knows about William Irvine early days with the Faith Mission..... That's not totally true, Nathan. The correct statement is that in the beginning ALL the workers knew about Ol' WIllie's early years. I DO agree that there came a point where new workers did not know about how the fellowship was started by WIllie and the boys (and girls). They TOO were lied to about the history. For many, it was after they became workers that they learned the history. When I was talking to a few workers about the history, and mentioned that growing up I was lied to about it, one of them made the statement that "we were lied to also". This worker was able to accept that he had been lied to, and now knew the truth about how the fellowship began. I would guess that for some of those who found out the history after offering for the work, finding out that they were lied to was one of the reasons that they later left the work.
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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Jan 23, 2014 16:40:30 GMT -5
Okay so lets see a head count of members here. How many of you quit the fellowship because of a website? I suspect that most folks were troubled with what they were seeing and were on the way out before going to the website. The website only helped to validate what they already knew. JMO I did not leave because of a website. I had discovered some of the history several years before on websites. Actually, I had first found VOT before I got baptized. So, my commitment to the religion stayed pretty strong until that last 6-12 months before I left. For me, it was an accumulation of being treated poorly by Glenn Gasser (3/01), finding out about Leslie White's conduct unbecoming an overseer (4-5/01), hearing contradictions from the platform (8/01), my dad saying that workers were some revered creature between man and angel (8/01). After all that happened, we went to the weekend at another convention (9/01) and when we left, we were nearly out. We went to a couple gospel meetings after that (10/01) but there was nothing there for us - it was an empty room with empty words. That literally is the order of how things went between March and October 2001. I made the best decision based on the information and experience I had at the time. If workers had been transparent about the history, I may have had no reason to leave. In addition, if certain workers had kept their pants on and zippers up, if the doctrine had been more sound, I might have stayed. So, in some ways, I'm glad most of this has played out the way it has, except for the CSA issue. I wish that had never happened.
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Archie
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Non,je ne regrette rein!!!!
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Post by Archie on Jan 23, 2014 16:42:30 GMT -5
Could someone please send me the link to the TTT webpage. Then I might see ,if that was the reason for me to leave.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 17:04:34 GMT -5
Nearly half a decade after much sorrow and discovery from many sources, not one of which was TTT, from Tom Lyness, many first generation workers, and primary evidence, I sought to help that fellowship, defending it much the same as some do yet today. Still, the hurdle of how to get past the fact that everything tod me about the truth by workers simply was NOT the truth became the greatest obstacle to my previous belief taught me from childhood with numerous little (and some huge) contradictory accounts just piled up too high to overcome -- and besides, I had been pulicly libeled, slandered worldwide, and excommunicated, having like the Vietnam uncle none except my Lord and God to turn to for comfort, guidance and instruction.
Remember telling two worker relations they simply had to begin teaching this is how we do it and the example is how Christ sent the apostles, NOT through some continuation of unproveable apostolic succession.. Instead, they and their compatriots contine to preach falsehoods
So any account that some website causes people to turn aside is simply another huge deceptive attempt at revisionist history by those choosing what they wish to spin as their perception of "truth." Belief is a highly personal matter.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 23, 2014 17:15:35 GMT -5
TTT website has caused many friends and some workers around the world to leave the fellowship because they believe the workers have lied to them about 2x2 apostolic Itinerant New Testament does not go back to Galilee but founded by William Irvine. It began and found by William in 1897. Our fellowship is ONLY 115 yrs old. Blaming TTT for folks to leaving the fellowship!!!! --- When is 2x2ism going to accept their own responsibility for the mess that their fellowship has gotten itself into? The only function that TTT has had in it all to to shine a light on the mess that 2x2ism has made itself, and then so desperatley tries to keep in darkness. Jesus very clearly gave us all the duty to enlighten when things are kept in darkness -- He gave us all the privelage of being 'a light to the world' -- Hardly is there a darker spot on this earth than 2x2ism. I can say that the "darkness" or the "secrecy" or the "exceeding" carefulness I witnessed and heard the workers and friends practice throughout my whole life is what brought the deepest grief to me! I felt like perhaps NO one in the whole 2x2 membership ever told me the truth and that included my parents, grandparents and legal guardians, who all professed the 2x2 religion. I was told "Oh we don't do this or that because we must not call attention to ourselves or to the workers."...I think in my younger days it made the workers MORE special that we were taking extra care to keep their comings and goings and preachings, etc from being known by every Tom, Dick and Harry! But the affect of that "fruit of darkness" almost destroyed my sense of being human, as having a rightful place in the world....and thus it wasn't particularly the hiding of the history that made me leave, it was the reason for the secrecy of the history, etc that brought me to understand that IF the workers and friends had something NO oNE else has, then why are we being selfish to keep it to ourselves? Is this why the present day workers do little real evangelistic work amongst the strangers to the 2x2 religion? Is this why they only target the children of the friends...letting procreation keep the 2x2 religion alive on the earth. Why are they placing such responsibilities upon those children? What are they doing so that those children would be able to sustain the religion? IF it continues secrecy and hidden proverbial carpet trash, how do the workers think the religion can keep going and be in any kind of good health? If this 2x2 ism is so special, why are people leaving right and left due to being preached false doctrine....? Like an overseer mentioned the main 2 things the workers are working to hold up was the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home! Now in my estimation that is holding those 2 things above Jesus! Is that correct doctrine? Are the workers really that "special" they can save people just as good as Jesus did and perhaps preferably so since they insert themselves in between Jesus and the individual? Why is such doctrine allowed to keep going, folks? This is false doctrine...the workers are "servants" not "saviors"!
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Post by quizzer on Jan 23, 2014 17:22:05 GMT -5
Why did Jerry think it was so important to raise his daughter in some sort of unquestioning bubble? It's not like she won't be taught to think when she goes to school.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 23, 2014 17:24:47 GMT -5
Blaming TTT for folks to leaving the fellowship!!!! --- When is 2x2ism going to accept their own responsibility for the mess that their fellowship has gotten itself into? The only function that TTT has had in it all to to shine a light on the mess that 2x2ism has made itself, and then so desperatley tries to keep in darkness. Jesus very clearly gave us all the duty to enlighten when things are kept in darkness -- He gave us all the privelage of being 'a light to the world' -- Hardly is there a darker spot on this earth than 2x2ism. Edgar, we know there are bad, unwise, stubborn workers among us that need to be removed from the ministry or give a lesser place in the ministry. There are tares among us, need to be removed. There are many good workers and friends in our fellowship, who are loving and caring people. There are MANY good church elders, and good friends among us who disagree fiercely on how the Canadian workers mistreated Chau and Hoa and the golden friends. Don't throw the baby with the bath water, Edgar. You were a good worker when you were in the work, right?Nathan, one thing I'm sure of and that is this: when preachers take a position within a certain church they are expected to preach the bible and stay within the perimeters of what the words mean within that bible....now IF a preacher starts trying to teach Catholic doctrine, traditions or dogma to a Baptist church, he will get a warning but after that he might as well go hunt another position...... So this should happen to the workers, IF the workers are NOT preaching what everybody in the 2x2 religion think is right...then send those workers on to other churches where they might eventually find one who'd listen to them and believe him entirely....Now that said, I think people are so adoring of the "position" of the workers that they do not think about the real truth....that is sad! When the "position" of the workers makes the whole religion....and this is what one of the foremost overseers told BM.....what is of utmost importance to the 2x2's is the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home. Nathan, where in the heck is Jesus in that? These workers have lost Jesus along the way, IF they ever had Him!
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Post by faune on Jan 23, 2014 17:35:43 GMT -5
Could someone please send me the link to the TTT webpage. Then I might see ,if that was the reason for me to leave. Archie ~ I will gladly provide you with the link to Telling the Truth, one of the best documented sites on the Internet regarding the history of the 2x2's! Cherie had done a fine job and even has a book she's written at her website for those who want a closer look into the F&W system. Go for it and enjoy the find! Also, here's a link to a public sister site to TTT entitled, The Liberty Connection, where you can find a lot of additional information and testimonies of ex-members and their experiences within the fold. I'm sure many of the life stories found here go back before the Internet information websites on the 2x2's even existed. My own story can be found here, too. I guess you might say, we followed our gut feelings after years of exposure to the F&W system of doing things and today feel better for doing so.
www.tellingthetruth.info/home/
www.thelibertyconnection.info/
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 23, 2014 17:49:18 GMT -5
Could someone please send me the link to the TTT webpage. Then I might see ,if that was the reason for me to leave. archie - Here's the website Link for Telling the Truth (TTT): www.tellingthetruth.info/home/And here's a link to a list of significant 2x2 websites: www.tellingthetruth.info/home/links.phpIn 1990, when I left there were no websites...however, there were books that told about the history. The most significant of these was The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker
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Post by fixit on Jan 23, 2014 19:26:53 GMT -5
If the workers had been completely open about the origins of the fellowship from day 1, the 2x2 fellowship would never have grown to the extent it did. So it was largely hidden and covered up. Talk to the friends in the UK and Ireland and see if they are clear about the early days - they generally were and some laughed about how secretive workers in other parts of the world were. Long before TTT, a UK worker labouring in NSW, sat down in front of the fire in one Sydney winter with my wife and I and told us the complete history - honestly and openly. Of course, he believed that William Irvine and the early workers had got back to the basics that Jesus taught.....we valued his honesty. The numbers in Ireland suggest that lying about the beginnings was not necessary.
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Post by fixit on Jan 23, 2014 19:32:24 GMT -5
As Clearday wrote "Nathan, the story still isn't "complete". There are still unanswered questions about how Irvine et al got it all going." AND I am totally in Agreement with him. We just learned from Christianburg recently.... That George Walker had known about William Irvine sister story and was telling different workers in 1960s back east coast about it. Unfortunately, George Walker (1898 worker from Ireland or Scotland) didn't give them too much details about William Irvine's sister, like Robert Darling (1905 worker from Ireland or Scotland) did around the same period 1960s in British C. Canada, in Washington state, California and with George Gittens from USA. We've already been lied to by workers about the history so why should we accept another fairy tale about William Irvine's sister?
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 23, 2014 21:29:30 GMT -5
For many years, hardly anyone worker knows about William Irvine early days with the Faith Mission..... That's not totally true, Nathan. The correct statement is that in the beginning ALL the workers knew about Ol' WIllie's early years. I DO agree that there came a point where new workers did not know about how the fellowship was started by WIllie and the boys (and girls). They TOO were lied to about the history. For many, it was after they became workers that they learned the history. When I was talking to a few workers about the history, and mentioned that growing up I was lied to about it, one of them made the statement that "we were lied to also". This worker was able to accept that he had been lied to, and now knew the truth about how the fellowship began. I would guess that for some of those who found out the history after offering for the work, finding out that they were lied to was one of the reasons that they later left the work. As Clearday wrote "Nathan, the story still isn't "complete". There are still unanswered questions about how Irvine et al got it all going." AND I am totally in Agreement with him. We just learned from Christianburg recently.... That George Walker had known about William Irvine sister story and was telling different workers in 1960s back east coast about it. Unfortunately, George Walker (1898 worker from Ireland or Scotland) didn't give them too much details about William Irvine's sister, like Robert Darling (1905 worker from Ireland or Scotland) did around the same period 1960s in British C. Canada, in Washington state, California and with George Gittens from USA. You are missing the point of what I am saying Nathan. My statement was: ........the fellowship was started by WIllie and the boys (and girls)........I could care less WHO started it, was the founder/finder/whatever. My point is that some of us were LIED to about how the fellowship started. It doesn't matter if they copied the Faith Mission group, whether they created it because someone's sister used to dock tails in the Alps, or if it was from a message in a bottle found on the beach by a small monkey looking for sea shells....... the fact is...... we were lied to about how the fellowship came into existence. Now..... I have read posts by a number of people about how they knew about the history when they were young, and how that didn't lead them out of the meetings, and how they really didn't care how it started, or who started it. They stayed in because they loved their Sunday morning meetings, and the simplicity of the church. WHEN those people left (who already knew the history) it was because of other reasons.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 23, 2014 21:50:12 GMT -5
The line of reasoning re TTT on this thread is a little like the argument "TV's are the source of the problem...." Let's differentiate between content and medium. Who created the content that enabled TTT and other websites, plus Doug Parker's book, to be created. None other than the workers (and some friends, to a lesser extent) If the workers had been completely open about the origins of the fellowship from day 1, the 2x2 fellowship would never have grown to the extent it did. So it was largely hidden and covered up. Talk to the friends in the UK and Ireland and see if they are clear about the early days - they generally were and some laughed about how secretive workers in other parts of the world were. Long before TTT, a UK worker labouring in NSW, sat down in front of the fire in one Sydney winter with my wife and I and told us the complete history - honestly and openly. Of course, he believed that William Irvine and the early workers had got back to the basics that Jesus taught.....we valued his honesty. Did we leave because of that? No Why did we leave? Simply because subsequently many NSW workers lied to us about origins and taught doctrine that did not line up with the Bible. Again, it wasn't "discovering the origins" that caused so many friends in Sydney/NSW to leave between 1996-2001. It was simply: - the inability or unwillingness to answer questions about doctrine - their view that those who were questioning and started to leave, were leaving God and therefore were being influenced by the devil (ie exlusivism) - their treatment of the deity of Jesus (who is He - the great "I am"), which ultimately was no less than an insult to Jesus - their explanation of how we are saved - one Sydney special meetings in 1999 - 3 workers = 3 different explanations - their unchecked authority - questioning what we say is simply questioning God No, don't blame TTT - blame those responsible for the content - both historical and being added to every day. And in all of this, that one worker (John Winter) who I could talk to at length, who called me up to meet me for lunch at my company office in the city, talked to my wife and I at home - was fantastic. We didn't always agree but we could talk scripture, what it meant. He was real gem and I am sure still is. He now labours back in the UK. But in the "vaccuum of power" that was left in NSW in the early 1990's after Gordon McNab, the Head Worker died, John W was pushed out of NSW by the current Head Worker as part of a power consolidation. It was hoped by many that John Winter would be appointed Head (even though he is a humble guy who wouldn't want place) but it was not to be. So ultimately many left and simply found other good bible based churches where they could worship God in spirit and in truth. Has it changed since? It seems the answer is No - friends continue to private mail me every year to ask questions about the meetings. The overwhelming theme is "we really like our little fellowship meeting....but convention is a real challenge because of the doctrine still being promoted..." I was at a family wedding last year when the senior lady worker (nice person) spoke about marriage and said "God had two plans for men and women in the Bible - the first plan is that a man and woman would get married and the second plan is the ministry....". A 2x2 professing younger couple said to me later "that second plan is so NOT in the Bible...". And so it goes on.... If you asked the worker about it the answer would likely be "well it might not be in the Bible, but we are God's annointed workers, his Apostles, and we don't marry today - we know it is God's plan because of what we are doing". Dangerous stuff! So the workers continue to supply "rich" content and it builds every day. TTT or the Secret Sect wouldn't exist without it... If the workers had been completely open about the origins of the fellowship from day 1, the 2x2 fellowship would never have grown to the extent it did. So it was largely hidden and covered up.
I am not sure that I am in agreement with that statement Roscoe. Some other churches that started around the same time period have grown much larger, and have carried the gospel message much further and reached more people. These are churches that embrace their history, openly state their doctrine and church focus, and reach out in many ways to people around the world. The church I attended prior to moving began about 10 years or so before the truth fellowship, and now this is how they have grown Where we go:We go wherever darkness has a foothold. Today, there are more than 2,000 Alliance churches in the United States, and approximately 20,000 fellowships in 81 countries around the world with nearly 5 million Christians calling themselves “Alliance.”A brief overview of the history: How it all started:
The Alliance movement began in the 1880s when our founder, Dr. A.B. Simpson, witnessed the physical and spiritual plight of New York City’s homeless, downtrodden, and marginalized populations.
Moved by his great love for Jesus and lost people, Simpson devoted his life to sharing Jesus’ light—in word and deed—with the city and, ultimately, the nations.And guess what they call the missionaries that go overseas??? Colorado Springs, CO—With much rejoicing and deep gratitude for God’s provision, the Board of Directors of the U.S. Christian and Missionary Alliance (The Alliance), during its October 23–25 meeting, appointed 35 new workers for international service to the Balkans, the Dominican Republic, France, Guinea, Indonesia, Japan, Mexico, the Middle East, Paraguay, and several creative-access countries.www.cmalliance.org/Do I consider the CMA church the 'right church'? No. I think it is a fellowship of believers that includes Christians that attend other churches/denominations around the world, or those who don't attend any church but live their lives as Christians. Your story as to what led you away from the fellowship is a familiar one Roscoe. I have heard those same reasons given by many others.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 23, 2014 22:01:20 GMT -5
No website can be blamed for people leaving the fellowship. The blame (if leaving because of the history of the church) is on those who lied to the members, and therefore those members lost all trust and respect in those false preachers who perpetuated that lie. Scott I believe there are many who left the fellowship before any websites were available. Shiela and I never had the websites that are available today. Perhaps it would have hastened our departure had we had the benefit. Ours was a result of our own experiences not what we read or from discussions with others. We evaluated our experience from what we read in the scripture and drew our own conclusion ken
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 23, 2014 22:02:55 GMT -5
I don't think Nate actually meant that, Edgar, although I can't speak for him. It does need clarification though and I suspect he meant that the information on TTT caused a lot of people to consider the fellowship in a different light and therefore they left. Thanks, Stargazer.... You're correct... That is what I meant. The information on TTT Start and Stop with William Irvine as the Founder in 189 ... there was hardly any information of the Christians such as Vaudois, Paulicans, Albigenses, Cathars, Waldenses who were practicing Jesus New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship for 1800 years. So, the readers don't get a complete picture of the history prior to the beginning of William Irvine and John Long, who decided through the Spirit of God revealation to start following Jesus apostolic 2x2 ministry in 1898.
So, many of the friends around the world became very angry, they feel the workers have lied to them without doing their own investigation. They just accept TTT website is telling the WHOLE truth.... TTT is telling the truth to certain point ONLY... It doesn't tell you the whole truth...
I try to give the whole picture and let the Spirit reveals the truth to the readers, to confirm the truth that He has already given to them.
I hadn't heard about the Waldenses before Nathan brought it up.
I just sold a book called "Separated Brethern" where the Waldenses were mentioned amongst many other smaller sects that started during the time of the rebellion against the Roman Catholic Church.
I simply don't think that here is any need to try and connect the "2x2's" with any of those small groups. It is obvious that WI broke with the Faith Mission and stated the so-called "2x2's."
You could try to trace the "Faith Mission" back to it's roots and might be able to do that, -then how much further do you want or need to go?
What difference would it make?
People were still allowed to believe that the **TRUTH** went all the way back to the original apostles.
That was a fallacy and if not promoted overtly was certainly covertly allowed to be believed by the founders.
It has hurt many people because it betrayed their faith and trust in what they believed!
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 23, 2014 22:11:11 GMT -5
No website can be blamed for people leaving the fellowship. The blame (if leaving because of the history of the church) is on those who lied to the members, and therefore those members lost all trust and respect in those false preachers who perpetuated that lie. Scott I believe there are many who left the fellowship before any websites were available. Shiela and I never had the websites that are available today. Perhaps it would have hastened our departure had we had the benefit. Ours was a result of our own experiences not what we read or from discussions with others. We evaluated our experience from what we read in the scripture and drew our own conclusion ken There were a LOT of people that left prior to the internet. It could be that now more people leave because finding out that they were lied to about the history, and that led them to do as you and Sheila did, and read scripture with a different perspective than what they had been taught. When I first read Jack Carroll's sermon (posted here: professing.proboards.com/thread/21694/telling-truth ) I was quite impressed with his openness in discussing issues that people had asked questions about. Jack was promoting being open and honest, not just with the members of the fellowship, but also with those outside asking questions. It seems that somewhere down the line (his sermon was in 1934), workers (and friends) resorted to evasiveness when being asked questions about the fellowship. I know that growing up I was told that workers didn't get any money, but in his sermon Jack makes it clear that the friends supply the workers with money, as well as other items such as food and shelter. I enjoyed reading his sermon, and while it may bring up other questions which he may have been a bit vague on, it opened the door to people to ask him later what he meant. A breath of fresh air compared to having a worker tell you not to question them........ on anything.......
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 23, 2014 23:43:32 GMT -5
There has always been people leaving the fellowship before the Secret Sect book, and TTT Website. They had their own reasons for leaving. But The TTT Website has increased the numbered of the friends leaving the fellowship..... And the workers who are slowing in dealing with CSA, sexual scandals with some workers, and situation with Darrel and Dale in VN make some friends and workers leaving the fellowship. Nathan, I think it is time to really get it honest here....because some of the workers actually and purposefully lied about the 2x2 beginnings they and others noted they started getting more converts when they told the nasty little story that they came all the way fromt he shores of Galilee. Now when that went over in such evident success, this empowered them to keep telling lies....so they decided in order to keep the workers in the work they'd fix this CSA issue up by forbidding the victims and their parents from telling others about what happened and they'd move the perpatrators out of that area or state so the victim wouldn have to see that worker and then they hid it all under the proverbial carpet of lies! This success again, just built up more courage to c ontinue telling lies about anything they may well be questioned on UNTIL we're here 4-5 generations of workers later that haven't got a clue as far as being able to smoothly tell a lie about scriptural things, so they're off and running in their own direction and then they quickly email each other what they've discovered to lie about so they all get to lie the same lie about their preaching or sermons, etc Once a lie is greatly success, the second lie isn't so hard to figure out and make it successful and on and on and on like the proverbial pink bunny !
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Post by stevnz on Jan 23, 2014 23:59:22 GMT -5
I am not sure that I am in agreement with that statement Roscoe. Some other churches that started around the same time period have grown much larger, and have carried the gospel message much further and reached more people. These are churches that embrace their history, openly state their doctrine and church focus, and reach out in many ways to people around the world. The church I attended prior to moving began about 10 years or so before the truth fellowship, and now this is how they have grown Where we go:We go wherever darkness has a foothold. Today, there are more than 2,000 Alliance churches in the United States, and approximately 20,000 fellowships in 81 countries around the world with nearly 5 million Christians calling themselves “Alliance.”A brief overview of the history: How it all started:
The Alliance movement began in the 1880s when our founder, Dr. A.B. Simpson, witnessed the physical and spiritual plight of New York City’s homeless, downtrodden, and marginalized populations.
Moved by his great love for Jesus and lost people, Simpson devoted his life to sharing Jesus’ light—in word and deed—with the city and, ultimately, the nations.And guess what they call the missionaries that go overseas??? Colorado Springs, CO—With much rejoicing and deep gratitude for God’s provision, the Board of Directors of the U.S. Christian and Missionary Alliance (The Alliance), during its October 23–25 meeting, appointed 35 new workers for international service to the Balkans, the Dominican Republic, France, Guinea, Indonesia, Japan, Mexico, the Middle East, Paraguay, and several creative-access countries.www.cmalliance.org/Do I consider the CMA church the 'right church'? No. I think it is a fellowship of believers that includes Christians that attend other churches/denominations around the world, or those who don't attend any church but live their lives as Christians. Your story as to what led you away from the fellowship is a familiar one Roscoe. I have heard those same reasons given by many others. The F&W happily sing hymns written by Rev Albert B Simpson, Canadian preacher, theologian, author, and founder of the Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA), an evangelical Protestant denomination with an emphasis on global evangelism. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Benjamin_Simpson #10 Jesus Now And Jesus Ever , but with Original Vs 3-6 substituted with new Vs 3-4 (author unknown) and other word changes. 3 Jesus is our Sanctifier, Saving us from self and sin, And with all His Spirit’s fulness, Filling all our hearts within. 4 Jesus only is our Healer, All our sicknesses He bare, And His risen life and fulness, All His members still may share. 5 Jesus only is our Power, He the gift of Pentecost; Jesus, breathe Thy pow’r upon us, Fill us with the Holy Ghost. 6 And for Jesus we are waiting, List’ning for the Advent Call; But ’twill still be Jesus only, Jesus ever, all in all. #16 Yesterday, Today, Forever, but Original Vs 3&5 not included: 3 Him who pardoned erring Peter, Never needst thou fear; He that came to faithless Thomas, All thy doubt will clear. He who let the loved disciple, On His bosom rest, Bids thee still with love as tender, Lean upon His breast. 5 As of old He walk’d to Emmaus, With them to abide; So thro’ all life’s way He walketh, Ever near our side. Soon again shall we behold Him, Hasten Lord the day! But ‘twill still be “this same Jesus,” As He went away. #87 I Will Say Yes To Jesus
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