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Post by snow on Feb 1, 2014 16:55:16 GMT -5
JD you mention that it would be all better once the 2x2's let go of their belief in exclusivity. My question is this. What would they have left if they didn't believe they were the only true way. They would become just another denomination of many within Christianity. Could the Truth survive that? Is there enough to offer the members if they don't have to be in the Truth to have salvation? Snow, If all we had was "exclusivity", I would have been gone a long time ago. What we would have left is sweet fellowship without the self righteousness of exclusivity. If it were true non-exlusivity, that would mean someone from another church could come to one of our meetings and be treated as a brother, not an outsider. We could break bread with them, and enter in with them in prayer. I'm failing to understand why you, and it appears Nathan thinks we would have nothing left. We would have everything left that means anything. Yes, maybe for some it would be a big let-down that they are not one and only true way. The one in 34 thousand that isn't going to Hell. If this bothers them, then their heart was in the wrong place anyway. If they have the heart of Jesus, this would bring them much joy to finally understand that they have other brothers and sisters. Am I missing something? JD I am asking those questions because of what some have said on here. Personally I agree with you that there are good reasons to stay and be inclusive. The exclusivity aspect to the group and to Christianity in general is why I left. However, for those within the group who do believe it is the only true way, that salvation can only be obtained through a worker etc. I don't think they would be happy at all if the group suddenly became inclusive. There are those of your group that will not mingle with the 'world'. I think inclusive 2x2 members are not the majority.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 1, 2014 17:10:46 GMT -5
JD you mention that it would be all better once the 2x2's let go of their belief in exclusivity. My question is this. What would they have left if they didn't believe they were the only true way. They would become just another denomination of many within Christianity. Could the Truth survive that? Is there enough to offer the members if they don't have to be in the Truth to have salvation? Snow, If all we had was "exclusivity", I would have been gone a long time ago. What we would have left is sweet fellowship without the self righteousness of exclusivity. If it were true non-exlusivity, that would mean someone from another church could come to one of our meetings and be treated as a brother, not an outsider. We could break bread with them, and enter in with them in prayer. I'm failing to understand why you, and it appears Nathan thinks we would have nothing left. We would have everything left that means anything. Yes, maybe for some it would be a big let-down that they are not one and only true way. The one in 34 thousand that isn't going to Hell. If this bothers them, then their heart was in the wrong place anyway. If they have the heart of Jesus, this would bring them much joy to finally understand that they have other brothers and sisters. Am I missing something? Is the 2x2 meeting of the **TRUTH** where you go now still exclusive?
Do they now think it is fine if other Christians outside **TRUTH** come and speak and partake of the bread & wine with them?
Do they now, or would they allow that to happen, RIGHT NOW?
Is this happening, or this all just rhetorical at this point in time?
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Post by jondough on Feb 1, 2014 17:56:36 GMT -5
Snow, If all we had was "exclusivity", I would have been gone a long time ago. What we would have left is sweet fellowship without the self righteousness of exclusivity. If it were true non-exlusivity, that would mean someone from another church could come to one of our meetings and be treated as a brother, not an outsider. We could break bread with them, and enter in with them in prayer. I'm failing to understand why you, and it appears Nathan thinks we would have nothing left. We would have everything left that means anything. Yes, maybe for some it would be a big let-down that they are not one and only true way. The one in 34 thousand that isn't going to Hell. If this bothers them, then their heart was in the wrong place anyway. If they have the heart of Jesus, this would bring them much joy to finally understand that they have other brothers and sisters. Am I missing something? Is the 2x2 meeting of the **TRUTH** where you go now still exclusive?
Do they now think it is fine if other Christians outside **TRUTH** come and speak and partake of the bread & wine with them?
Do they now, or would they allow that to happen, RIGHT NOW?
Is this happening, or this all just rhetorical at this point in time?
No, I was answering Snows question of "what would be left of our fellowship if we dropped exclusivity". Its slowly happening, but we're not nearly at this point yet. Maybe a couple generations away.
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Post by jondough on Feb 1, 2014 17:58:49 GMT -5
Snow, If all we had was "exclusivity", I would have been gone a long time ago. What we would have left is sweet fellowship without the self righteousness of exclusivity. If it were true non-exlusivity, that would mean someone from another church could come to one of our meetings and be treated as a brother, not an outsider. We could break bread with them, and enter in with them in prayer. I'm failing to understand why you, and it appears Nathan thinks we would have nothing left. We would have everything left that means anything. Yes, maybe for some it would be a big let-down that they are not one and only true way. The one in 34 thousand that isn't going to Hell. If this bothers them, then their heart was in the wrong place anyway. If they have the heart of Jesus, this would bring them much joy to finally understand that they have other brothers and sisters. Am I missing something? JD... you won't be with the 2x2 fellowship very long. You will find a different pasture, churches out there that think, believe like you. There were many 2x2s who came and posted on this message board, that think like you in the past... finally, it was too stressful for them, they couldn't change the friends' minds in the fellowship, so they left the 2x2 fellowship and found churches that fit their own thinking.... ALL roads lead to Rome.Don't look now Nathan, but there are many others with the same mindset as myself. Nathan, how often do you get to meetings? Sunday morning? Sunday Gospel mtg? Wed night?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 18:09:45 GMT -5
Don't look now Nathan, but there are many others with the same mindset as myself. Nathan, how often do you get to meetings? Sunday morning? Sunday Gospel mtg? Wed night? Remember, what happened to John Long? and recently the guy, name Brandon in Texas. Like I wrote in the past I only attend the two weeks conventions for right now.Do you consider yourself to be a professing member of the fellowship?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 18:11:26 GMT -5
Only curious as to how you see yourself in relation to the fellowship. As I have posted quite often, there are a lot of people who no longer attend many gospel meetings. However, most of them do support their local fellowship meetings.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 18:29:16 GMT -5
Do you consider yourself to be a professing member of the fellowship? Couldn't you tell by my posts on TMB, spirit, and my message board? So, I wonder why you ask me those questions.No, I can't tell Nathan. Personally, I don't consider you to be a 'professing' member of the fellowship. To me, a person who would be considered to be 'professing', is one who attends the local fellowship meetings, meeting with their local church for encouragement and edification. After all, the fellowship meetings are the backbone of the church, and is what defines the fellowship. (I don't believe that it is the homeless ministry, because I don't think the workers are homeless OR itinerant any more) Not a big deal to me though, as I really don't think it is important which church one attends. It is our relationship with Jesus/God/Holy Spirit that defines us as Christians. That is what leads us into good works, plus what defines a disciple of Christ. (By the love for others) I am sure that as an outsider, I could easily attend a couple of conventions a year, but I doubt if anyone would consider me to be professing.......
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 18:38:06 GMT -5
Do you consider yourself to be a professing member of the fellowship? Couldn't you tell by my posts on TMB, spirit, and my 2x2 message board? 2) Scott wrote: Only curious as to how you see yourself in relation to the fellowship. As I have posted quite often, there are a lot of people who no longer attend many gospel meetings. However, most of them do support their local fellowship meetings. ~~ Many of the friends attend all of the gospel meetings, Sunday morning worship meetings only in bodies but their spirits are NOT in it 100%. Their hearts and minds wandering somewhere else. Their spirits do NOT want to be in the gospel meetings or fellowship meetings. So, don't let the outward meeting attendance appearance deceive/fool you, that they are professing. Judge by what they say, their attitudes and spirits toward the workers ministry and the friends belief. I wonder many of them stay as 2x2s, to save their marriage, don't want to disappoint their professing parents, their professing relatives, etc... but once they are free from these things they are gone for good. Just like the teenagers living at their professing parents homes... After they leave for college! bye, bye... no more meetings. I don't let outward appearance deceive me, Nathan. Outward appearance can be deceptive. And I don't think that the attitude toward the 'workers ministry' defines a Christian, although like you point out that does point to where some peoples faith lies, and it isn't in Jesus/God. Plus, I think that there has been quite a change in what would be considered 'the friends belief'. And you are right. A lot of them DO stay in the fellowship because of family. It certainly isn't because of a belief in the 'workers ministry'. We often read here about the 40% decline in membership of the fellowship in the last 20 years or so, and if you take those people out of the equation who no longer believe in the 'workers ministry' as an essential part of their faith, then I would have to believe that is another 25% who really do NOT fall into what a worker would consider to be a 'professing' person in the fellowship. AND..... they really don't care. They DO care about their local meeting, and enjoy that fellowship. The workers influence in their lives is basically zero now, and it is because of the senior workers no longer being trusted, and no longer being seen as spiritual advisors in any way. They now only trust those workers that they personally know to be caring for the church.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 18:50:09 GMT -5
No, I can't tell Nathan. Personally, I don't consider you to be a 'professing' member of the fellowship. To me, a person who would be considered to be 'professing', is one who attends the local fellowship meetings, meeting with their local church for encouragement and edification. After all, the fellowship meetings are the backbone of the church, and is what defines the fellowship. (I don't believe that it is the homeless ministry, because I don't think the workers are homeless OR itinerant any more) Not a big deal to me though, as I really don't think it is important which church one attends. It is our relationship with Jesus/God/Holy Spirit that defines us as Christians. That is what leads us into good works, plus what defines a disciple of Christ. (By the love for others) I am sure that as an outsider, I could easily attend a couple of conventions a year, but I doubt if anyone would consider me to be professing....... Thanks, for your opinion. I know what is in my heart, and where I stand with the 2x2, better than your opinion... Let us NOT get too personal here, Ok. That is enough about me, let us get back to the topic of this thread. How information causes people to leave the fellowshipI like you Nathan. A lot actually. You are a member of the TMB family here. I disagree with a lot of what you post, and that is just fine. As far as how information causes people to leave the fellowship, this thread was created due to the fact that I think this is an important topic. It is certainly becoming evident that almost all of us who have left the fellowship 20 years or more ago, did so without knowing about the history. Now, I would guess that the majority of those who are under 50 years old know that the fellowship started back around 1900. So..... Is it the history located on the internet that can be blamed for people leaving? I really don't think so. Personally, I find the history fascinating, and think it should be openly talked about. I think that the reason people are leaving is because the majority of the senior workers simply aren't trusted anymore. They lie to the members, or at best ignore them and their concerns. There is a lack of accountability among them as far as dealing with serious issues within the church, and so people just decide it is time to leave and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Another big reason is that people are seeing the overseers as being quite corrupt. With (very likely) over 100 million dollars laying around in trust funds around the world, and no open accountability, and continuing to pretend they have nothing......... I certainly don't blame people for voting with their feet and hitting the road to where pastors and other ministers are accountable to the church in their teachings and dealings.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 20:05:23 GMT -5
Let me repeat this again... There has always been 2x2s have left the fellowship the last 115 yrs BUT the VOT/TTT websites have played a major role in increasing in the numbers to hundreds, thousands of the friends are leaving the last 17 yrs. I have seen it here on TMB. 100 People came to post as 2x2s and 60% left as ex-2x2. TMB is a grave yard for Many 2x2s. TMB is not for the 2x2 fainted of hearts, those sitting on the fence, or those having doubts, etc... But Nathan..... Does the blame really lie with the websites? OR..... does the blame lie with the true accounts that are read on those websites? I readily agree that there are quite a few people who really dislike the fellowship, and would like to see it destroyed. But, there are a lot of us in the ex category who actually try to help people in the fellowship, and who feel sad to watch it destroying itself from within. When someone reads the true account of the Alberta fiasco, and the words of people like Dale Schultz telling members to blindly follow the overseers decisions EVEN WHEN THEY ARE WRONG, and see that he is still in a position of power..... and in fact was promoted to his current position.... and then read of how now he is involved in destroying another segment of the fellowship in Vietnam...... What do you think these people are going to do? Continue to support a system that promotes such workers? And we see similar things happening elsewhere, and wherever you find such overseers in charge, ya know what you find? Yep..... more people leaving. Where there are overseers that are genuine leaders and working to correct issues in the church, you don't find so many people leaving. Many of those that leave in those areas, do so because of what they read and hear about elsewhere in the church. You can also read elsewhere on the internet where professing people are discussing issues under their real names, and they are talking about some of the same issues we talk about here. More information being digested, and coming from professing people, hardly something that can be blamed on websites.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 1, 2014 20:11:06 GMT -5
Let me repeat this again... There has always been 2x2s have left the fellowship the last 115 yrs BUT the VOT/TTT websites have played a major role in increasing in the numbers to hundreds, thousands of the friends are leaving the last 17 yrs. I have seen it here on TMB. 100 People came to post as 2x2s and 60% left as ex-2x2. TMB is a grave yard for Many 2x2s. TMB is not for the 2x2 fainted of hearts, those sitting on the fence, or those having doubts, etc... Nate: Do you have a list of the 60 people who came to TMB and left as Ex2x2s in the last 17 years??? That would be in 1997 when the TTT website went online. TMB only started in 2003 (11 years ago); and before that there was the PMB which started in 2001 (13 years ago). Frankly, I cant bring to mind anywhere near 100 2x2 people who have left who posted on TMB However, if you have actually kept a list and post maybe that will help me remember. Off hand, the only one I can think of who left after being on TMB is sharonw. Odd that you dont give as much credit to TMB as you do to VOT/TTT. What about the RIS website--they sell the books, including the Secret Sect; and they put up their websites before TTT did? And the website TLT? Oh well...I am used to getting credit/discredited/badmouthed for a lot of things I didn't have anything to do with... So I'm just checking your "facts"... CK
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 20:22:12 GMT -5
Are those who have been falsely accused and then excommunicated supposed to just "disappear" from the face of the earth? That seems to be the wish (or wishful thinking) of the workers (and some who are not but post here as if they were.) Not one knowledge of Internet sites or ANY sites were involved. Absolutely none!
Some of us have simply taken all the crud we can endure, and simply cannot endure any more! Others, who were more spiritual, simply became aware of what is really true (and I perceive Edgar, & the Vietnam brothers in this group) and with great love of souls have continued to try to reach out to the needy desiring spiritual help. I am kind of a mix of those two or more types. And I surely appreciate those coming to my aid now as I grow older and more infirm quickly!
Speaking for myself and myself only, I am truly thankful for those wonderful "golden friends" in Vietnam, and wish I were with them to help those two "uncles." Perhaps in time as others now provide for my need I will be able to help provide for theirs. May their health not give out on them as mine has for me.
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Post by Mary on Feb 1, 2014 20:33:00 GMT -5
I cannot see from your websites that you are a professing 2x2 in the workers church Nathan. I have never met a 2x2 who believes in Aliens, and fallen angels that are roaming the earth, like you. Many 2x2s also are beginning to acknowledge that they were started by man unlike you who are coming up with new theories all the time. The majority of 2x2s have never heard of the Waldensians and certainly do not link themselves with them from time past. What I am getting from your post is that you consider yourself a 2x2 in spirit but not in body. You talked about gospel and worship meetings. I have not heard a professing person call them worship meetings. There are Gospel meetings and fellowship meetings. I take it Nathan it has been many years since you attended Sunday morning fellowship meetings. You only make conventions. I do not know where they have 2 week conventions though. I thought they were only for 3 - 4 days each time. Do you mean you attended for 2 weekends or 2 days over two weekends? Why should not attending meetings be a guilt trip unless you can go but do not.
You seem to believe in the principal of going out 2x2 by faith, but you do not seem to believe much more of what the 2x2s believe than that.
What is wrong with people leaving the 2x2s and having a closer relationship with God. I see it as positive not negative. It is not healthy to be a fence sitter. You seem to think it is ok to deceive people and not tell them the truth. Many people grow up in meetings and profess because that is all they have known. I think it is far better than people profess with the information than without it.
We do value your fellowship on this board.
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Post by jondough on Feb 1, 2014 23:56:01 GMT -5
Don't look now Nathan, but there are many others with the same mindset as myself. Nathan, how often do you get to meetings? Sunday morning? Sunday Gospel mtg? Wed night? Remember, what happened to John Long in 1907? and recently... the guy, name Brandon in Texas. You might end up like them by reading your posts lately. Like I wrote in the past, I only attend the two weeks conventions for right now.Nathan, Let me tell you about a group of people that I love and care about immensely. That is, my immediate family. My wife and my children. When I see something wrong within my immediate family, because I love them so much, I deal with it. I do not make excuses for it, or sweep it under a rug. I could only do that if I did not love them so much. Now I'll tell you about another family that I try to deal with in the same way, and for the same reason. That is, my brothers and sisters that I meet with twice on Sunday, and once on Wednesday. Do I deal with it in the same way Brandon did. Absolutely not. I posted at the time that the problem wasn't so much what he was saying. It was the fact that he did so in a Sunday morning meeting. I posted back then that I didn't think that was the place for what he was doing. It was ruining the unity of the meeting. Now you are threatening me (so to speak) because I express my concerns of our fellowship? Last time I checked, this TMB forum is a forum for discussion. I try to be honest in posting my feelings. Do I think that anything will change as a result of posting here? Not at all. I do think that this place is very healthy discussion for all within our fellowship. Example is, listening to you try to come up with flimsy stories about our history. When you listen to your stories that hold no water, you are forced to either just embrace our history, close your eyes and ignore it, or leave. I chose to embrace it. How many times have I told you to do the same. Its the healthy thing to do, and if your Faith is where it should be, it really doesn't matter. Tis true that I have been on a journey since coming to TMB. Its been a great journey. A journey that has caused me to embrace not only the history of our fellowship, but also brothers and sisters that are not a part of our fellowship. Just earlier on this thread in response to Faun's post I explained how we only hear the bad here, and not the good. I explained how things ARE getting better, the workers that just stayed with us, and that I have no plans on leaving. Please scroll up and read. You may have been offended because of what I said about you, and if you are, I apologize. Again, I try to express my honest feelings in my post. I try not to make dishonest excuses for wrong. Since most of the discussion on TMB is only about the bad ( as I explained above) I try to enter into that discussion with honest post. My true feelings. Not sugar coated ones. Nathan, I will not compare myself to you, but I will tell you this. I love the people I fellowship with, and I love the way we fellowship. Yes I get frustrated at times over things that are not right. Thats the same with my immediate family. That doesn't mean I plan to leave them. No, just the opposite. With love, I will continue to help make change for the better.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2014 2:11:24 GMT -5
Nate: Do you have a list of the 60 people who came to TMB and left as Ex2x2s in the last 17 years??? That would be in 1997 when the TTT website went online. TMB only started in 2003 (11 years ago); and before that there was the PMB which started in 2001 (13 years ago). Frankly, I cant bring to mind anywhere near 100 2x2 people who have left who posted on TMB However, if you have actually kept a list and post maybe that will help me remember. Off hand, the only one I can think of who left after being on TMB is sharonw. Odd that you dont give as much credit to TMB as you do to VOT/TTT. What about the RIS website--they sell the books, including the Secret Sect; and they put up their websites before TTT did? And the website TLT? Oh well...I am used to getting credit/discredited/badmouthed for a lot of things I didn't have anything to do with... So I'm just checking your "facts"... CK When I was in the work in 1990 with Craig Jacobsen, we had elders, the friends receive anti-2x2 packages sent to their homes. Some of the Church elders in Wy. left the fellowship, some friends in Idaho field left and the numbers keep on growing. The Workers tried to contain the wild fire! which spread slowly to different states. The workers asked the friends to burn those anti-books, information which they received. Some didn't burn it, they read and seeds of doubts began to set in. Some of these ex-elders, ex-friends had these little books with the friends names and addresses on there were helping to sent information to the friends on the addresses. To slow down the wildfire from spreading further, the workers were deleting friends addresses from the little books, just put their names and phone numbers ONLY.
We know about the RIS, but they didn't do much damages because the friends hardly buy or read books written by the exes.
I left the work in 1994.... I read the VOT/TTT website in 1997. I began posting on the Professing board awhile before I started my own website in 2000--
At first VOT TTT websites didn't get too much attention in 1997... But as the friends, workers began using the Internet more and more, they found out about VOT/TTT websites... It creates more questions and workers couldn't answers because most of the workers, don't know the history in 1897 or hearing anything about William Irvine or sister story.
Cherie, you and I can check the names of the truth message board posters, and find those who left... it combination of various sites VOT/TTT/TLT... many smaller anti-2x2 sites have always point to TTT website as the main leader of 2x2 history and information. TMB has buried many friends, who are no longer professing after been on here. So, it's a combination different things. The Workers tried to contain the wild fire! which spread slowly to different states. The workers asked the friends to burn those anti-books, information which they received. Some didn't burn it, they read and seeds of doubts began to set in
Again, when you tell people not to do something, some of them are going to do it anyhow. Of course people would be curious as to what was being said. And why wouldn't these people start doubting? They were lied to, and it was pretty obvious. It was the fault of the senior workers who perpetuated lies. It has come back to bite them in the butt big time. And....... the beginning of the eroding of trust and respect for the overseers. It has been pretty much a down hill slide since then hasn't it?
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Post by jondough on Feb 2, 2014 2:14:13 GMT -5
Nathan, Let me tell you about a group of people that I love and care about immensely. That is, my immediate family. My wife and my children. When I see something wrong within my immediate family, because I love them so much, I deal with it. I do not make excuses for it, or sweep it under a rug. I could only do that if I did not love them so much. Now I'll tell you about another family that I try to deal with in the same way, and for the same reason. That is, my brothers and sisters that I meet with twice on Sunday, and once on Wednesday. Do I deal with it in the same way Brandon did. Absolutely not. I posted at the time that the problem wasn't so much what he was saying. It was the fact that he did so in a Sunday morning meeting. I posted back then that I didn't think that was the place for what he was doing. It was ruining the unity of the meeting. Now you are threatening me (so to speak) because I express my concerns of our fellowship? Last time I checked, this TMB forum is a forum for discussion. I try to be honest in posting my feelings. Do I think that anything will change as a result of posting here? Not at all. I do think that this place is very healthy discussion for all within our fellowship. Example is, listening to you try to come up with flimsy stories about our history. When you listen to your stories that hold no water, you are forced to either just embrace our history, close your eyes and ignore it, or leave. I chose to embrace it. How many times have I told you to do the same. Its the healthy thing to do, and if your Faith is where it should be, it really doesn't matter. Tis true that I have been on a journey since coming to TMB. Its been a great journey. A journey that has caused me to embrace not only the history of our fellowship, but also brothers and sisters that are not a part of our fellowship. Just earlier on this thread in response to Faun's post I explained how we only hear the bad here, and not the good. I explained how things ARE getting better, the workers that just stayed with us, and that I have no plans on leaving. Please scroll up and read. You may have been offended because of what I said about you, and if you are, I apologize. Again, I try to express my honest feelings in my post. I try not to make dishonest excuses for wrong. Since most of the discussion on TMB is only about the bad ( as I explained above) I try to enter into that discussion with honest post. My true feelings. Not sugar coated ones. Nathan, I will not compare myself to you, but I will tell you this. I love the people I fellowship with, and I love the way we fellowship. Yes I get frustrated at times over things that are not right. Thats the same with my immediate family. That doesn't mean I plan to leave them. No, just the opposite. With love, I will continue to help make change for the better. Thanks, for your honest post. We didn't get off on the right foot, when I felt you were attacking me personally, by asking me if I were professing by judging my lacking in meeting attendance. This TMB can get our emotion highly charge, hot and heavy sometimes. It brings out mix feelings, frustration in us out.No worries Nate. You are very well liked by most everyone here, me included. We appreciate all your post. Like Scott mentioned, we don't always agree. Thats ok. That is what makes for good discussion, and helps us see things from all angles. JD
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 2:31:00 GMT -5
Great post JD and I agree. Nathan is well appreciated and well liked here. Knowing him personally, I can say he is a wonderful person.
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Post by faune on Feb 2, 2014 3:46:45 GMT -5
Snow, If all we had was "exclusivity", I would have been gone a long time ago. What we would have left is sweet fellowship without the self righteousness of exclusivity. If it were true non-exlusivity, that would mean someone from another church could come to one of our meetings and be treated as a brother, not an outsider. We could break bread with them, and enter in with them in prayer. I'm failing to understand why you, and it appears Nathan thinks we would have nothing left. We would have everything left that means anything. Yes, maybe for some it would be a big let-down that they are not one and only true way. The one in 34 thousand that isn't going to Hell. If this bothers them, then their heart was in the wrong place anyway. If they have the heart of Jesus, this would bring them much joy to finally understand that they have other brothers and sisters. Am I missing something? JD... you won't be with the 2x2 fellowship very long. You will find a different pasture, 38,000 churches out there that think, believe like you. There were many 2x2s who came and posted on this message board, that think like you in the past... finally, it was too stressful for them, they couldn't change the friends' minds in the fellowship, so they left the 2x2 fellowship and found churches that fit their own thinking.... ALL roads lead to Rome. Nathan ~ You make a valid point here ~ exclusivity is the glue that holds the fellowship together! It's also true that a number of friends who thought they could change the faith from within finally gave up trying and moved on to churches where they felt more accepted and inspired by the sermons and fellowship. I followed the same path and have no regrets over leaving the 2x2 mindset behind me. When I left the fellowship after 30 years, not one friend or worker even bothered to contact me to see if I was still alive or showed any concern over my absence. However, since leaving I have attended a few different churches and made friends in all of them and even when I moved on, they still kept in touch via Facebook or E-mail. Quite a comparison to the 2x2's and the cold treatment I received from the F&W's, who could care less about you after you leave the fellowship. It's like you never existed in their eyes!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 5:28:30 GMT -5
An interesting development for me personally is that the last few years I have gotten an email or 2 a week from folks I have never met, but who have somehow read some of my writings on the net. 95 procent of them are folks who have been out of fellowship for 10-20 years and just want to share common feelings regarding 2x2ism. Very, very seldom from folks in the process of leaving. And in all these years I have only gotten 1 email from a person angry with me for the lack of respect I show for 2x2ism. Mr Bau in Vietnam is one of the touching letters that I am especially glad for. www.2x2vietnam.info/Vietnam1.htmMy impression is that the Internet is a far more important factor for the process of cult recovery, than it is for cult exit. Edgar
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 2, 2014 10:00:13 GMT -5
Nate: Do you have a list of the 60 people who came to TMB and left as Ex2x2s in the last 17 years??? That would be in 1997 when the TTT website went online. TMB only started in 2003 (11 years ago); and before that there was the PMB which started in 2001 (13 years ago). Frankly, I cant bring to mind anywhere near 100 2x2 people who have left who posted on TMB However, if you have actually kept a list and post maybe that will help me remember. Off hand, the only one I can think of who left after being on TMB is sharonw. Odd that you dont give as much credit to TMB as you do to VOT/TTT. What about the RIS website--they sell the books, including the Secret Sect; and they put up their websites before TTT did? And the website TLT? Oh well...I am used to getting credit/discredited/badmouthed for a lot of things I didn't have anything to do with... So I'm just checking your "facts"... CK When I was in the work in 1990 with Craig Jacobsen, we had elders, the friends receive anti-2x2 packages sent to their homes. Some of the Church elders in Wy. left the fellowship, some friends in Idaho field left and the numbers keep on growing. The Workers tried to contain the wild fire! which spread slowly to different states. The workers asked the friends to burn those anti-books, information which they received. Some didn't burn it, they read and seeds of doubts began to set in. Some of these ex-elders, ex-friends had these little books with the friends names and addresses on there were helping to sent information to the friends on the addresses. To slow down the wildfire from spreading further, the workers were deleting friends addresses from the little books, just put their names and phone numbers ONLY.
We know about the RIS, but they didn't do much damages because the friends hardly buy or read books written by the exes.
I left the work in 1994.... I read the VOT/TTT website in 1997. I began posting on the Professing board awhile before I started my own website in 2000--
At first VOT TTT websites didn't get too much attention in 1997... But as the friends, workers began using the Internet more and more, they found out about VOT/TTT websites... It creates more questions and workers couldn't answers because most of the workers, don't know the history in 1897 or hearing anything about William Irvine or sister story.
Cherie, you and I can check the names of the truth message board posters, and find those who left... it combination of various sites VOT/TTT/TLT... many smaller anti-2x2 sites have always point to TTT website as the main leader of 2x2 history and information. TMB has buried many friends, who are no longer professing after been on here. So, it's a combination different things.Nate - you wrote: I have seen it here on TMB. 100 People came to post as 2x2s and 60% left as ex-2x2. TMB is a grave yard for Many 2x2s.The explanation you made wrote doesnt back up your earlier statement at all, in which you limited your figures to 60 people who had left on TMB... "I have seen it here on TMB. 100 People came to post as 2x2s and 60% left as ex-2x2. TMB is a grave yard for Many 2x2s." Where's your list of 60 2x2s who left TMB since 1997? For the record, other than mailing my original exit letter and its followup to about 100 of my friends and relatives, I have not participated in mass mailings to F&Ws.
Also, just bcs people leave meetings doesnt mean they are dead (in a graveyard). Many stories on TLC Website attest to an awakening in their spiritual life and drawing closer to God. TLC Website - Why We Left
My advice to you Nate: Be careful what you write--someone may come for your words. Make sure you can prove your words!
Read here how The Hidden History was exposed (in chronological order)
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Post by Gene on Feb 2, 2014 10:12:23 GMT -5
"The Hidden History" is a fascinating chronology, Cherie. Thanks for assembling and publishing it!
G
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Post by christiansburg on Feb 2, 2014 10:26:01 GMT -5
TTT website has caused many friends and some workers around the world to leave the fellowship because they believe the workers have lied to them about 2x2 apostolic Itinerant New Testament does not go back to Galilee but founded by William Irvine. It began and found by William in 1897. Our fellowship is ONLY 115 yrs old. Blaming TTT for folks to leaving the fellowship!!!! --- When is 2x2ism going to accept their own responsibility for the mess that their fellowship has gotten itself into? The only function that TTT has had in it all to to shine a light on the mess that 2x2ism has made itself, and then so desperatley tries to keep in darkness. Jesus very clearly gave us all the duty to enlighten when things are kept in darkness -- He gave us all the privelage of being 'a light to the world' -- Hardly is there a darker spot on this earth than 2x2ism. Let's be clear and honest about dark spots on the face of the earth. No doubt the 2x2 fellowship has had a multitude of problems. But remember across the spectrum of religion there is hardly a darker spot than the RCC. The 2x2's have not slaughter and tortured millions of people in the name of Christ as did those who followed the dictates of the Pope. The problems of the 2x2's, as mentioned, only cover a small span of 115 years. The abuses of the RCC cover many centuries. They truly have blood on their hands. I do think the RCC is trying to right some of those wrongs but they can't change history and neither can the 2x2's.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 10:39:07 GMT -5
Let's be clear and honest about dark spots on the face of the earth. No doubt the 2x2 fellowship has had a multitude of problems. But remember across the spectrum of religion there is hardly a darker spot than the RCC. The 2x2's have not slaughter and tortured millions of people in the name of Christ as did those who followed the dictates of the Pope. The problems of the 2x2's, as mentioned, only cover a small span of 115 years. The abuses of the RCC cover many centuries. They truly have blood on their hands. I do think the RCC is trying to right some of those wrongs but they can't change history and neither can the 2x2's. Lets also be clear and honest about the fact that one dark spot does not justify another. The RCC is far from the only so called Christian fellowship with blod on its shoulders -- The Swedish Luthern church has a history of enormous unchristian activity as well. This board has its focus on 2x2ism -- and the enormous injustice and suffering that it is responsible for. Many other groups are more or less in the process of coming to terms with the failings in their history --- Not so with 2x2ism . 2x2ism is still so stubornly proud of the suffering that it causes -- and still on-going in the corruption that it is promoting. This is the scary aspect of 2x2ism that few other groups in our modern world are guilty of today.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 10:48:40 GMT -5
Blaming TTT for folks to leaving the fellowship!!!! --- When is 2x2ism going to accept their own responsibility for the mess that their fellowship has gotten itself into? The only function that TTT has had in it all to to shine a light on the mess that 2x2ism has made itself, and then so desperatley tries to keep in darkness. Jesus very clearly gave us all the duty to enlighten when things are kept in darkness -- He gave us all the privelage of being 'a light to the world' -- Hardly is there a darker spot on this earth than 2x2ism. Let's be clear and honest about dark spots on the face of the earth. No doubt the 2x2 fellowship has had a multitude of problems. But remember across the spectrum of religion there is hardly a darker spot than the RCC. The 2x2's have not slaughter and tortured millions of people in the name of Christ as did those who followed the dictates of the Pope. The problems of the 2x2's, as mentioned, only cover a small span of 115 years. The abuses of the RCC cover many centuries. They truly have blood on their hands. I do think the RCC is trying to right some of those wrongs but they can't change history and neither can the 2x2's. This is a worthwhile principle I try to remember: "you can never justify your own bad behaviour by pointing out worse behaviour by someone else."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 11:46:40 GMT -5
Let's be clear and honest about dark spots on the face of the earth. No doubt the 2x2 fellowship has had a multitude of problems. But remember across the spectrum of religion there is hardly a darker spot than the RCC. The 2x2's have not slaughter and tortured millions of people in the name of Christ as did those who followed the dictates of the Pope. The problems of the 2x2's, as mentioned, only cover a small span of 115 years. The abuses of the RCC cover many centuries. They truly have blood on their hands. I do think the RCC is trying to right some of those wrongs but they can't change history and neither can the 2x2's. This is a worthwhile principle I try to remember: "you can never justify your own bad behaviour by pointing out worse behaviour by someone else." It is a corollary to what all of us likely were told by our mothers: I don't care if everyone else is doing it, YOU aren't!!! Based on my experience, not all who leave or are going to leave the fellowship do so based on the real history of the fellowship. For some it has to do with doctrine, for which Cherie can't be blamed.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 2, 2014 11:54:14 GMT -5
Some Reasons Why We Left…Dishonest accounts of doctrine or history; avoidance or lying to all questions Lack of understanding of the deity of Jesus and the complete effectiveness of his sacrificial atonement Lack of understanding the deity and work of the Holy Spirit Unscriptural use of women as teachers in the church Incompetent advice and counsel Indifference of workers towards members Indifference of head worker and members to the needs of subordinate workers Inappropriate remarks during funeral messages or at funerals Unscriptural withholding of baptism Unscriptural withholding of the emblems Unscriptural reasons given to keep people from giving testimonies in meeting Sunday morning meetings not open to the public; secret meeting places, hidden addresses of workers and members Inaccurate teaching regarding prayer Absence of God-centered worship Absence of spiritual bread in workers’ messages Inaccurate, allegorical and twisted use of scripture Absence of good fruit among workers or people Exclusivism – Living Witness Doctrine- salvation only through the workers Lack of unity among friends and workers, yet refusal to admit this lack of unity Lack of joy, warm friendships or trust Refusal to give a written statement of faith Refusal to examine or teach scriptural doctrines and a denial of them Presence of immorality among workers, elders and professing people Presence of judgment and scorn for outsiders and for members as well Secrecy regarding money Secrecy regarding decisions and lack of protection against bad decisions Abuse of power among workers No practice of repentance No understanding of the gospel Excommunication without any scriptural grounds Misplaced emphasis on human appearance Gnosticism separates spiritual life from natural life – Doctrine of Nicolaitains Inconsistency in building for conventions and owning property, while condemning others for buildings and property Refusal to admit the organizational structure within the group Refusal to admit the names of the group Refusal of the headworkers to share their money or use their money for the needs of all the workers Requirement of conformity as an issue of unity Members have little to no understanding of scripture or the workers’ beliefs No scriptural education for worker, children or members No warning about sin, no teaching about how to find true salvation through faith in Jesus Idolization of workers, the system and methodology Moving workers from one field to another to hide sexual immorality New Age viewpoints among workers and members Involvement in the occult among some members, visiting mediums, reading horoscopes, etc. Lack of charitable activities towards outsiders or insiders Lack of teaching on finances or the importance of honesty in business matters for members Ignoring the needs of ex-workers. Workers who leave the work have money taken from them. Mind control techniques emasculates men, defeminizes women and is harmful to children. Unscriptural requirement for workers to be unmarried puts everyone at risk for sexual deviancy and immorality Workers use fear and guilt to keep people from examining their behavior and doctrines Headworkers disfellowship workers and members to enforce conformity Headworkers disfellowship anyone who questions or disagree with their decisions, yet everyone quietly disagrees Misplaced emphasis on submission, sacrifice and suffering Worker imposed emotional and mental alienation from society in order to be “sanctified and set apart” From TLC Website: Some Reasons Why We Left
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 2, 2014 11:57:04 GMT -5
Some Factors which Served to Destroy our ConfidenceInadequate dealing with Questions Examples of fallacious reasoning Lack of Unity Presence of Immorality Requirement of Celibacy Abuse of Authority by Workers Abuse of Power by Workers Lack of Joy Organizational Structure Conformity Required Lack of Love Lack of Charitable Works Lack of Converts Presence of Judgment and Scorn Secrecy regarding Money Presence of Church Buildings Presence of EXTREME Legalism Incompetent advice Idolization of the Workers Idolization of the System Withholding Baptism and the Emblems Lack of knowledge regarding of Holy Spirit and His work Misplaced Emphasis on Works Doctrinal Ambiguity Required to be hypocrites Misplaced Emphasis on Sacrifice/suffering Presence of Women Preachers Presence of Antifeminism Lack of Teaching for adults and especially for children Lack of preaching/teaching emphasis on nature of sin Lack of Accurate Teaching Regarding Prayer/Natural things Lack of Spiritual Food Indifference to Errors Obedience is Mandatory--Not a free choice From TLC Website: Some Reasons Why We Left
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Post by christiansburg on Feb 2, 2014 12:40:50 GMT -5
Let's be clear and honest about dark spots on the face of the earth. No doubt the 2x2 fellowship has had a multitude of problems. But remember across the spectrum of religion there is hardly a darker spot than the RCC. The 2x2's have not slaughter and tortured millions of people in the name of Christ as did those who followed the dictates of the Pope. The problems of the 2x2's, as mentioned, only cover a small span of 115 years. The abuses of the RCC cover many centuries. They truly have blood on their hands. I do think the RCC is trying to right some of those wrongs but they can't change history and neither can the 2x2's. Lets also be clear and honest about the fact that one dark spot does not justify another. The RCC is far from the only so called Christian fellowship with blod on its shoulders -- The Swedish Luthern church has a history of enormous unchristian activity as well. This board has its focus on 2x2ism -- and the enormous injustice and suffering that it is responsible for. Many other groups are more or less in the process of coming to terms with the failings in their history --- Not so with 2x2ism . 2x2ism is still so stubornly proud of the suffering that it causes -- and still on-going in the corruption that it is promoting. This is the scary aspect of 2x2ism that few other groups in our modern world are guilty of today. This board may have its focus on the 2x2 and the enormous injustice and suffering it has caused. But don't overlook that not only are other groups coming to terms with their offenses so are the 2x2's. The dismissal of some rules and the dismissal of some workers. But it all takes time. I think the worst issue now is the fact that they just find it hard to talk about it. There are some proud ones among us who will clam up when you want to discuss these things but there are others who are dealing with it. At present they seem to be in the minority but transformation is always a slow process. I also think those who are coming to grips with our problems cannot be classified as being extremely proud. I think it will be awhile before things are as we want them. And then again it may take the return of Christ to really right all the wrong that has been done by all who claim the name of Christ.
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