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Post by blandie on Jan 25, 2014 19:09:46 GMT -5
THE WORKERS WHO KNEW ABOUT "THE BEGINNINGS" LIED FOR ABOUT 100 YEARS regarding the meetings and "their system" going back to the shores of Galilee, and them being in direct succession from the first 12 apostles. Why do I think they lied? I hadn't thought of it before but this summer will be the 100th anniversary of the first big schism that produced what we know of now. Any kind of parties being planned?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2014 21:59:02 GMT -5
Not only it had been less attractive, but also then the question that naturally would have followed, would have been, "Where is William Irvine now?"
So then they would have to answer, that William Irvine was no longer in the **TRUTH**. Then a question of "why?" Then an explanation, that he was excommunicated. Another question,"why?" -and on it goes!
It might be a bit of an embarrassment to say that they had excommunicated the man who had started it all! So what if it was an embarrassment. People in all walks of life are removed from the groups they are members of. The embarrassment would have been short-lived with an honest explanation of what occurred. Not a big deal. People are not perfect, and most others understand that. By hiding the origins of the fellowship, lying to the members...... they have in effect lost all trust and respect that their position in the church should have. Those who have been honest and discussed these matters are the ones that are trusted, but they are tainted by the others who are deceitful. True, I wasn't trying to give them an excuse for their actions, just an explanation of how it started as a omission of the truth and allowing the idea to continue.
They had to have known that as time went along that people were believing the falsehood that it went all the way back to the original apostles. Yet, they never corrected it! It continued like a snowball getting bigger and bigger!
You are right. "By hiding the origins of the fellowship, lying to the members...... they have in effect lost all trust and respect that their position in the church should have."
It was inexcusable.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 26, 2014 0:25:55 GMT -5
No website can be blamed for people leaving the fellowship. The blame (if leaving because of the history of the church) is on those who lied to the members, and therefore those members lost all trust and respect in those false preachers who perpetuated that lie. That is not NOT true.... many on TMB have mentioned TTT website have played a great role in them leaving the fellowship because of the information, history on TTT website. The workers have NOT told the friends lies about 2x2 teachings of Jesus apostolic New Testament goes back to Jesus and apostles. I believe TTT have mislead people, for yrs there was no mentioned of William Irvine, John Long, and the early workers were returning or following Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry. They did NOT start some new workers teachings idea or a Cult at all. Thanks, goodness for John Long's Journal has helped us to understand how some of them came together from his side of the early history.William Irvine beginning 1898/his sister/Living witness doctrine. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=baby&action=display&thread=99 Nathan, you are still in denial about the history of the **TRUTH** (2x 2's) The workers HAVE told the friends " lies" about 2x2 beginnings. Even though they say that it is the "teachings" that are important and their "teachings" go back to Jesus and apostles, -not even that is totally true.
Even if that is what they believe they were doing, they should NOT have so absolutely denied when & where their "new" system of the fellowship started!
I'm am sure that most people when they first went to gospel meetings in the early days that one of the things that they would naturally ask is, "We have never heard of this before. When did this start? Where did it start"
And that is when the deception started!
The people were given these vague stories and even if the workers did not absolutely say that it went all the way back to the original apostles they deftly allowed people to believe that it did go all the way back!
That was totally dishonest!
I'm beginning to understand why you want to believe that Irvine got the belief from his sister and she from the Waldensians etc..
That is simple denial. You are one deceiving yourself now!
The Waldensians still exist, so why aren't the 2x2's still a part of them if what you believe about Irvine's sister is true?
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Post by quizzer on Jan 26, 2014 1:09:32 GMT -5
THE WORKERS WHO KNEW ABOUT "THE BEGINNINGS" LIED FOR ABOUT 100 YEARS regarding the meetings and "their system" going back to the shores of Galilee, and them being in direct succession from the first 12 apostles. Why do I think they lied? I hadn't thought of it before but this summer will be the 100th anniversary of the first big schism that produced what we know of now. Any kind of parties being planned? A few conventions, where there might be mention of the Way "going back to the beginning."
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Post by fred on Jan 26, 2014 2:36:34 GMT -5
I hadn't thought of it before but this summer will be the 100th anniversary of the first big schism that produced what we know of now. Any kind of parties being planned? A few conventions, where there might be mention of the Way "going back to the beginning." You could be onto something there quizzer - at a recent convention the overseer made mention of ways that are started by man but this way was started by Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 10:35:13 GMT -5
A few conventions, where there might be mention of the Way "going back to the beginning." You could be onto something there quizzer - at a recent convention the overseer made mention of ways that are started by man but this way was started by Jesus. Here we go again! Now the TTT is going to get blamed for more people leaving!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 22:36:33 GMT -5
It is a closed system, one that tries to censor what information is available to people regarding both inside and outside. Pretty much any information threatens that kind of system.
The attempted censorship failed before the secret sect and internet, maybe the standard of education in western countries and the change in broader community values played a role here.
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Post by quizzer on Jan 27, 2014 12:29:14 GMT -5
You could be onto something there quizzer - at a recent convention the overseer made mention of ways that are started by man but this way was started by Jesus. Here we go again! Now the TTT is going to get blamed for more people leaving! Well, TMB could be blamed for more folks paying attention to what the workers say! That was one thing I noticed - you didn't have to worry about hearing "shores of Galilee" from the convention platform, but you were hearing a nebulous "back to the beginning" line. Not sure what "beginning" is implied - Christ, God, the big bang, WI, who knows?
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2014 19:05:07 GMT -5
No TTT never existed when I left. Neither did the internet. I left because the Christian God is exclusive and I hated that aspect of the 2x2's and Christianity in general. Then I just moved on to not like religions in general because again, they are exclusive. Cherie's website is great and if it makes people leave, good. Wish there was a website out there that could get people to move away from religion too. Oh well, one can dream...
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 19:21:27 GMT -5
You could be onto something there quizzer - at a recent convention the overseer made mention of ways that are started by man but this way was started by Jesus. Clyde Mackay used to say this .... not sure if he is the overseer you heard Fred? At the Silverdale convention in Sydney in the early 1990's Gordon McNab, the then overseer of NSW spoke about how thankful he was for the "Truth" and "that we had a lot to thank William Irvine for". My ears pricked up as it is the only time in many, many years of meetings and conventions that I had heard William Irvine's name mentioned. Of course, John Hardie who Gordon M took over from would have known William I very well. It might be the only time since Willie was booted that his name was mentioned from a convention platform. I think WI did a good thing before the exclusivity god took hold.
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Post by fred on Jan 27, 2014 22:00:54 GMT -5
You could be onto something there quizzer - at a recent convention the overseer made mention of ways that are started by man but this way was started by Jesus. Clyde Mackay used to say this .... not sure if he is the overseer you heard Fred? At the Silverdale convention in Sydney in the early 1990's Gordon McNab, the then overseer of NSW spoke about how thankful he was for the "Truth" and "that we had a lot to thank William Irvine for". My ears pricked up as it is the only time in many, many years of meetings and conventions that I had heard William Irvine's name mentioned. Of course, John Hardie who Gordon M took over from would have known William I very well. Sounds like he still favours the idea, roscoe. Not that folks take a lot of notice to what he says these days. Wow, that was a bit adventurous for Gordon, was it not?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 28, 2014 0:18:25 GMT -5
Fred - yes I hear that about Clyde. It was adventurous for Gordon but I guess there was a lot of things floating around after the Secret Sect was published in the early 1980's. I also remember when he got up and warned everyone about Brian Jenner (I think it was) - the guy that was going around and making quite a bit of money out of "rebalancing" friends at $80 an appointment back then. Presume you remember that! Apparently Gordon spoke the same warning at the six conventions in NSW.... Wow! Never heard that one! What did he do to "rebalance" someone?
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Post by snow on Jan 28, 2014 14:58:38 GMT -5
Wow! Never heard that one! What did he do to "rebalance" someone?
DM, Brian Jenner appeared on the NSW 2x2 scene in the late 1980's. He wasn't professing but he stumbled across a goldmine in the friends - particularly in country NSW. I don't know his background but he started to get interest from some friends and his reputation started to grow that he could somehow rebalance your mind and effectively help you mentally. Many, many friends went to him. He seemed to move from town to town, get some of the friends to accommodate him and do the 'phoning around to organise appointments. Some of my relatives went and they laid down on a portable table and he stood over their head and spoke to them, went into their past and tried to get them to let go of the past and heal them - waved his hands over them and spoke to them etc. One of my relatives said it was a bit of a spooky experience as he seemed to know a bit about the people he was "treating" - perhaps he got a run-down from the friends he was staying with on the various people he was about to "treat"!! It was $80 a visit which was good money in those days. He also sold those small round trampolines and encouraged people to bounce on them for at least 15-20 minutes a day - to help in the rebalancing. A lot of round trampolines started to appear in houses. A couple of my relatives bought them and swore by them. He got quite a following - some people obviously benefited from whatever he did! A few things happened as I recall: 1. He trained up at least one 2x2 couple to assist in the rebalancing process - there were many patients to treat. 2. One female worker became quite a supporter of whatever he did - I remember one day that the 2x2 couple who had been trained up were in Sydney from the country and staying at a relative's house. We visited and were in the lounge room talking to this worker who was about to go into the family room where she was going to be rebalanced! I said to her..."xxx, you don't seriously believe this stuff do you". She responded with a smile on her face "oh, ye of little faith". Anyway, as time transpired she was rested from the work for her involvement and was out for a number of years before being reinstated. 3. One or two meetings in southern NSW really got involved with Brian Jenner and left the 2x2 fellowship over it. Apparently, one of the elders and his wife woke up one morning and heard a voice from God asking them to drive north to Sydney which they did. Anyway, eventually (as you do!) they simply ran out of petrol and ended up stranded. There were quite a lot of funny stories around at the time. Anyway, Gordon McNab raised the issue of Brian Jenner at each of the six conventions in NSW and warned all in the meetings about him and to steer clear - that he was essentially preying on the friends and using their money. After the warning, his business went "south" and he disappeared - perhaps to the next group that needed rebalancing! Oh my! From what I remember many of the friends were into alternative types of healing. Vitamins and that kind of thing were big too. Are they still? I guess that mindset would make them vulnerable to someone like him?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 28, 2014 19:15:02 GMT -5
I haven't read this entire thread yet, so this may have been covered already. THE WORKERS WHO KNEW ABOUT "THE BEGINNINGS" LIED FOR ABOUT 100 YEARS regarding the meetings and "their system" going back to the shores of Galilee, and them being in direct succession from the first 12 apostles. Why do I think they lied? I grew up hear this from the platform and on into my 40's. THEN, when people started getting the information about William Irvine starting the system of the workers, the story changed to "the stump theory" which I have heard from the lips of a relative. This is the theory that the ministry and their system died out, but the "stump" was left and William Irvine was the "twig" that started the tree up again. THEN, just last week I heard from a 2x2 that "she'd heard that William Irvine heard the gospel and their system through a woman in Italy. And, someone else said he heard it from a woman in Switzerland. So, why have all these different stories? Because they are trying to cover up what they'd been teaching for 100 years! I guess it comes down to this.....pick your lie and run with it....or make up a new one! Kind of a laughable excuses for when the 2x2's started. Blaming it on a woman here and a woman there and that it was William Irvine who had been told by all these women...kind of a "in your face" thing about his immoral activities, so it seems, eh? Sad thing it is to be e xcommunciated for his immoral behaviours when all throughout the whole lifespan of the 2x2 sect of religion there's been more immoral behaviours found in other workers/friends and most of them have not been "excommunicated". I think the real reason he was excommunicated had more to do with his "new gospel" the gospel of Omega.....the other workers feared he was going into something that none of them could answer questions about....this is the part where some kind of bible college would have helped many of them diffuse these hot spots, IMO.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 28, 2014 19:23:41 GMT -5
This is a humorous thread. Cherie tells the truth about the fellowship and is branded a liar (or enemy) The workers lie about the truth and be extension Cherie, and they are deemed Godly. Tell me again who the bible says that the father of lies is? Or where liars will end up? And especially, where those that love and CONTINUE a lie? And what does the bible say about those that would call good bad and bad good?
Cherie's site is good but is called bad. The worker's lies (or coverups) are bad but are called good.
But, the bible also says, "Wisdom is justified of her children."
Sacerdotal ~ Cherie did the unexpected ~ she exposed the truth by her research efforts over the years, which has ruffles a few feathers of some F&W's who try so desperately to cover it up from view. I'm thankful for people like Cherie and others who are courageous enough to publish the facts and let others decide for themselves. People need to be informed and not kept in the dark about the history and scandals, which benefits nobody in the end. There are some good people still within the fellowship and on TMB who have good principles and sincerely care about others within the fellowship. However, there's also are folks within the group who have been so conditioned by the leadership to look the other way when stuff surfaces, it's almost a knee-jerk reaction. Changes need to be made and without facing the truth about one's past, it can never be realized. Just my thoughts! Back about 6 years or so ago, a person told me that Cherie was messing in things she shouldn't be messing in. I frowned and look at them with a look that said, "Oh? Please continue". But no, they turned and walked away...I had been so shocked by the remark that I hardly knew what to say to get them to expand on what in the heck they were meaning! I mean I didn't like what I read on TTT either, but at the same time I wasn't blaming her at all....she was just putting out the truth as she got it....it kind of shook my roots and I was a bit upset about that...but then it came to me that sometimes we have to be shaken a loose from things that are not good for us so I needed to not be mad at Cherie, but be mad at those who had led me wrong to start with.....
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 29, 2014 20:00:49 GMT -5
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 29, 2014 20:06:32 GMT -5
I think that one of the sources of information that is coming into play more and more, is word of mouth/emails.
Many professing folks read here on the TMB, and then mention what they read to others. This is the same as with the various facebook groups, and various websites. It is causing discussion to take place that wouldn't otherwise. It is this word of mouth that actually gets people to research and learn what is out in cyberspace concerning their church.
Google and other searches likewise are leading people to the TMB, WINGS, BTS and various websites. I know one sister worker that googled a brother workers name, and that is how she ended up in contact with me, and we had some really interesting emails concerning a variety of subjects.
People who wouldn't normally be looking for sites such as the TMB just end up here.
In fact, it was through some type of search that I found the TMB back in 2007. I don't remember just what it was I was searching for, but I was pretty fascinated. I read for a long time before I started posting here. Been interesting, and has led me places I never thought I would go.
Kind of like the starship Enterprise...... LOL!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 0:33:36 GMT -5
Just a reminder Nathan .. this was Jesus words regarding our responsibility of sharing the light! Not hiding it! Matt 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 31, 2014 1:44:12 GMT -5
A lot of people are seeing their light because of their participation here on the TMB, Nathan.
Plus, it is shining a light on the actions of those ungodly men who showed up in Vietnam promoting themselves, instead of Jesus.
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Post by Mary on Jan 31, 2014 1:54:12 GMT -5
So have you heeded Chau's words Nathan? Why is it ok for you to come here and not us? Are you shinning your light by being on here any more than anyone else. TTT is the best thing that has happened to the fellowship as it tells the history which the workers have tired to keep hidden and lied about. It has told people the truth and there's nothing wrong with telling the truth Nathan.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 31, 2014 2:00:48 GMT -5
Sad that there are so many tares in leadership positions in the fellowship isn't it......
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Post by Mary on Jan 31, 2014 2:15:55 GMT -5
And TTT tells the whole truth but you are against this site. Talking about other churches is nothing to do with the 2x2s. TTT talks about the 2x2s, not other churches.
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Post by Mary on Jan 31, 2014 2:50:22 GMT -5
You are trying to perpetuate the lie Nathan. You are twisting the truth and using double talk. We can trace all churches back to Jesus. The 2x2 church or call it what you like, was started by William Irvine the same as Joseph Smith started the Mormons or some other person started a church. As I said, TTT tells the history of the workers church, not other churches.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 31, 2014 3:05:27 GMT -5
So have you heeded Chau's words Nathan? Why is it ok for you to come here and not us? Are you shinning your light by being on here any more than anyone else. TTT is the best thing that has happened to the fellowship as it tells the history which the workers have tired to keep hidden and lied about. It has told people the truth and there's nothing wrong with telling the truth Nathan. I am here to tell the whole truth... There has always been Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic ministry and fellowship on the earth in every generation. William Irvine didn't start or came with this idea by himself or the first person do so! in 1898.~~~ Edward Cooney: "We did NOT start this Jesus Way...it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men..." Edward Cooney (2x2 Go-preacher) said to Impartial Reporter 1O/7/1909. Edward Cooney: There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. (Reprinted from Edward Cooney's Testimony reprinted in Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, by Patricia Roberts, Pages 43-45) Edward Cooney: Undoubtedly God called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning; and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people for God's name was William Irvine who, at the time of his being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is the Rock alone on which Jesus Christ would build his church, and that the gates of Hades should not prevail against it. (Letter by Edward Cooney to My dear Sister dated May, 1930 Reprinted from: Selected Letters, Hymns, and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867- 1960 by Patricia Roberts) Ed Cooney stated in his letter to Alice Flett: "I travelled for my father's business and preached inside and outside, as occasion offered, with some persecution. Whilst doing so, I met William Irvine through whom George Walker, Jack Carroll, William Carroll, Willie Gill and a number of the present leaders professed, including James Jardine. William Irvine and I were drawn together as brothers in Christ, each of us claiming liberty to follow Jesus as we received progressive light from God by the Spirit...You may be here to tell the truth as your see it, but not many people agree with what you claim. In fact, in what you just posted, Ed Cooney is stating that most prominent and most used in this calling out a people for God's name was William IrvineYou like to state that there has always been some group that has been going out in a SIMILAR fashion to the workers today, but never a direct link to them. The truth fellowship is just one of many denominations that started up around the turn of the last century.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 3:11:36 GMT -5
Nathan -- We are not saying that any single web site or discussion board can illuminate the whole 2x2 issue -- Even candles leave shadows, and flicker in the wind. However your (and 2x2 leaderships) tactic of attempting to banish all sources illumination under the proverbial 'bushel' only creates more darkness.
The sum of truth reavealed in all the differents sources of light on these issues is obviously devestating for the image of 2x2ism that they would like to paint of themselves -- so we understand your panic.
Still Nathan, face it, "the under the bushel tactic"is not working so well these days, as it has done previously since the groups founding a 100 years ago or so. Jesus promise is obviously being somewhat fullfilled for these dear folks in Vietnam at the moment.
Edgar
This was Jesus promise. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
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Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 5:13:52 GMT -5
I can understand it from the perspective of the twisted 2x2 mindset, but at the same time I wonder how you can regard Hoa as 'in the coffin' -- He is one of the very few workers that has stood true to his convictions, and has been willing to follow the leading of Gods spirit to his heart, in all simplicity and truth - quite in line with Jesus examples. I have enough confidence in many other of the lower ranking workers to know that they understand the sorry mess that their leadership put them in -- quite outside the will of God. They would like to have the spiritual freedom to serve God as Hoa is doing from the bottom of his heart. --- Yet the bondage of 2x2ism makes this impossible for them -- until the day they find the courage to do as Hoa has done, and break loose from the shackles that bind them. I believe that God is very anxious for Chau to find the same courage and faith to do as Hoa has done -- God has never been dependent on an organization to fulfill his will on the earth .. the only thing necessary is the genuine and beautiful spirit of Christ -- Quite obviously completely lost within 2x2ism. I don't believe Chau will follow Hoa's example. It would be interesting to find out whether both of them discuss TTT website information about William Irvine among themselves. I hope Dale will trust Chau and let him labor in VN among the current friends where he can be a great help to MANY. Chau doesn't fall for William Irvine, the founder thing. Nathan, you seem to have an obsession about William Irvine. I'd much rather be told the truth than cling to some apostolic succession fairy tale. The overseer's church of today is very different from William Irvine's church between 1897 and 1907 anyway.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 31, 2014 11:03:25 GMT -5
You are trying to perpetuate the lie Nathan. You are twisting the truth and using double talk. We can trace all churches back to Jesus. The 2x2 church or call it what you like, was started by William Irvine the same as Joseph Smith started the Mormons or some other person started a church. As I said, TTT tells the history of the workers church, not other churches. It is NOT a lie when you wrote all churches trace back to Jesus.... but you don't think the 2x2s can trace their roots back to Jesus also? William Irvine, was a Presbyterian, and 99% of the 2x2 workers came out from many Protestant churches and Catholic Church themselves. ALL Protestants churches and the Catholic Church trace their lineage back to all of the apostles and to Jesus as the Founder of the New Testament Church..... but most of their belief, teachings are different because an Enemy/Satan has sowed tares in God's field/the world and among the apostles. According to Jesus parable in Matt. 13 The Son of man/Jesus sowed ONLY good seed/true teachings from the Father... but the enemy came in among the apostles ranks, and began sowing tares/false doctrines.Nathan you frighten me and it is for your needs that I'm talking about! Do you not remember the words that Jesus told his Apostles when they told him about a man that was putting the demons in people, out? What did Jesus say, Nathan. Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part. Do you not see by this scripture alone that we are not to speak against those who work in Jesus' name....for it is Jesus' mind that those who work or worship in His name that they are not against him. So to continue to looke down upon any other denomination that actually may have Jesus higher on their worship scale then the 2x2's that speak against those said church members. You severe need to make it that the 2x2's actually tells some of here on TMB that you are fighting against having to accept that the "lie" the workers and some friends perpetuated that the 2x2 church comes from the shores of Galilee when IT IS NOT SO. IF it had come from the shores, do you think that Jesus' Way would have been allowed to become so corrupt as it is presently? I sure don't! True some people can be corrupt but Nathan, when it comes down to a majority of the fuling workers are the corrupt ones that says that that corruptedness is accept as being OKAY! Please subside from pushing that idea, Nathan! I know it will hurt you pretty bad when you have to face the truth about the "Truth"....look at Lazarus presently for he has finally had to come to the same conclusion most of us have had to come to and it is hurting him because he has given the younger years of his life to something that is a lie.....some 50 yrs. There are others, BM is one who was trying to get the truth out about other Christian believers and was shot down for it because his mtg.'s elders couldn't handle that truth about the "Truth"! The Vietnamese story that is so hard to accept because there doesn't seem to be on thing we can do to alleviate their pain! The 2x2 pain is felt by nearly all of us here on TMB....and it didn't have to be this way!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 31, 2014 11:17:35 GMT -5
"but it was the TTT website that put the final nail to the coffin with Hoa relationship with the current 2x2 friends and workers in Vietnam." quote of NathanB
Nathan, in reading this phrase it sure looks like you're condemning someone to death esp. spiritual death......Nathan you should never do that...it isn't of a loving spirit to condemn someone to death whether physical or spiritual death. When we love our neighbor as ourselves then we should easily want the best for them and sometimes we just have to admit that we have no idea what is best for them and leave it up to them do what is best for themselves.
Accepting others as they struggle to do what is right within their own morality and spiritually modes is what love does....Jesus has been used for an example when he spoke against those who were whited sepulchers, etc but then that WAS Jesus!
Please don't continue to condemn anyone that says a lie was told and/or anyone who is saying that TTT is telling the truth. Again I'm sure Cherie knows there are other facts out there she hasn't received in line with the 2x2 church. She's always willing to listen or receive anything that tells some more of the truth about the "Truth".
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