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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:23:49 GMT -5
i have never ever known this "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you." so to me it's a complete untruth, poppycock and the rest of what you have written does not line up with anything i have just heard at convention these sort of things written like this are lies to me shame on you sacerdotal's statements are correct; "The 2x2 fellowships cornerstone message is this: "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you."
"To be saved as a 2x2 one must believe in the workers," Virgo, where have you been all your life?
In a cave somewhere with your hands over your ears so that you don't hear anything that you don't want to hear?
do you live where i live?
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Post by gecko45 on Dec 30, 2013 23:48:45 GMT -5
am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead They live. They howl around my bedroom at night. Wow, never thought about that but by simple logic a "living witness" is one of the "undead" Here I have been preparing for the Zombie apocalypse when I should be preparing to welcome the bearers of "glad tidings".
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 30, 2013 23:51:04 GMT -5
It is worse than that now- the overseer of Texas excommunicated a fellow for not believing in the "workers without a home and the church in the home" as being the only right way. This happened this year. It is OK to not believe in this 2x2 way being the only way, it just isn't OK to say so publicly- especially in a meeting or at convention. The workers really are blind to the fact that by not being able to speak openly and bluntly about the belief is an indictment against the belief. The living witness belief is a shame and a glory to the fellowship. And it is a stone around the fellowships neck that is dragging it down. I don't believe in exclusivity but , like you said, I would never speak about it. I have talked to quite a few friends who feel the same way, but we keep it amongst ourselves, and certainly would never bring it up with the workers.. Why wouldn't you bring it up with the workers? Why are you afraid to do so unless if you believe that they would disapprove of what you believe?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:54:50 GMT -5
Virgo Are you claiming that the Living Witness Doctrine was never part of the doctrine of the 2x2 sect? If not, then what exactly is it that you are claiming? And what is your basis for making such a claim given that sarecdotal's position seems to be one that is recognisable to many here, including me. Matt10 am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead Virgo, Your response is nonsense and you have avoided answering the questions. I'll ask them again. Are you claiming that the Living Witness Doctrine was never part of the doctrine of the 2x2 sect? If not, then what exactly is it that you are claiming? And what is your basis for making such a claim given that sarecdotal's position seems to be one that is recognisable to many here, including me. Matt10
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 30, 2013 23:56:42 GMT -5
Virgo Are you claiming that the Living Witness Doctrine was never part of the doctrine of the 2x2 sect? If not, then what exactly is it that you are claiming? And what is your basis for making such a claim given that sarecdotal's position seems to be one that is recognisable to many here, including me. Matt10 am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead Virgo, you are just playing word games. You deceive no one but yourself.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 31, 2013 0:07:03 GMT -5
sacerdotal's statements are correct; "The 2x2 fellowships cornerstone message is this: "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you."
"To be saved as a 2x2 one must believe in the workers," Virgo, where have you been all your life?
In a cave somewhere with your hands over your ears so that you don't hear anything that you don't want to hear?
do you live where i live? I live and have lived in Illinois soon be 82 years. I did spent a about year on the east coast in Philadelphia.
I went to meeting in the home where George Walker got his mail.
Where do YOU live?
If you really believe what you are posting, you must live somewhere in the darkest of all places, -either that or you are have been deceived by the workers, -or you are hiding your head in the sand, -or you are willfuly in denial of the reality of a foundational tenet of the so-called **TRUTH**
Take your pick.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 0:19:03 GMT -5
I don't believe in exclusivity but , like you said, I would never speak about it. I have talked to quite a few friends who feel the same way, but we keep it amongst ourselves, and certainly would never bring it up with the workers.. Sunshine It is clear that you don't accept 2x2 doctrine to be true. Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who preach what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who you know are attempting to deceive people, including children, into making life changing decisions on the basis of what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 0:25:11 GMT -5
am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead Virgo, you are just playing word games. You deceive no one but yourself.
didn't answer the question but what is unusual in that
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Post by sunshine on Dec 31, 2013 0:26:32 GMT -5
I don't believe in exclusivity but , like you said, I would never speak about it. I have talked to quite a few friends who feel the same way, but we keep it amongst ourselves, and certainly would never bring it up with the workers.. Why wouldn't you bring it up with the workers? Why are you afraid to do so unless if you believe that they would disapprove of what you believe?
It's complicated... I enjoy fellowship meetings and convention and all that the truth involves. But I don't feel any need or desire to discuss my beliefs with the workers. I like it how it is. You are right, they would question my faith and disapprove of my belief. I don't really feel its their business what I believe in my own life. They did their job and brought the gospel. I accepted Christ into my life and am thankful I can meet together on Sunday the way we do. We are not one of the more popular families that have more contact with the workers. I don't mind that. In fact its probably better. Thats probably why we don't know much that goes on with financial matters and stuff. I think the mistake people make is blabbing everything to the workers..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 0:29:40 GMT -5
am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead Virgo, Your response is nonsense and you have avoided answering the questions. I'll ask them again. Are you claiming that the Living Witness Doctrine was never part of the doctrine of the 2x2 sect? If not, then what exactly is it that you are claiming? And what is your basis for making such a claim given that sarecdotal's position seems to be one that is recognisable to many here, including me. Matt10 i answered your first question with am i that will also answer your second question and the third you avoided answering my question by accusing me of not answering yours
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 0:30:48 GMT -5
do you live where i live? I live and have lived in Illinois soon be 82 years. I did spent a about year on the east coast in Philadelphia.
I went to meeting in the home where George Walker got his mail.
Where do YOU live?
If you really believe what you are posting, you must live somewhere in the darkest of all places, -either that or you are have been deceived by the workers, -or you are hiding your head in the sand, -or you are willfuly in denial of the reality of a foundational tenet of the so-called **TRUTH**
Take your pick.i didn't ask you where you lived
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 0:36:34 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you bring it up with the workers? Why are you afraid to do so unless if you believe that they would disapprove of what you believe?
It's complicated... I enjoy fellowship meetings and convention and all that the truth involves. But I don't feel any need or desire to discuss my beliefs with the workers. I like it how it is. You are right, they would question my faith and disapprove of my belief. I don't really feel its their business what I believe in my own life. They did their job and brought the gospel. I accepted Christ into my life and am thankful I can meet together on Sunday the way we do. We are not one of the more popular families that have more contact with the workers. I don't mind that. In fact its probably better. Thats probably why we don't know much that goes on with financial matters and stuff. I think the mistake people make is blabbing everything to the workers.. you are right your salvation is a matter between you and God and not between you or anyone else including those on this forum have you asked a worker to see if they would question your faith and disapprove of your belief?
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Post by sunshine on Dec 31, 2013 0:38:56 GMT -5
I don't believe in exclusivity but , like you said, I would never speak about it. I have talked to quite a few friends who feel the same way, but we keep it amongst ourselves, and certainly would never bring it up with the workers.. Sunshine It is clear that you don't accept 2x2 doctrine to be true. Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who preach what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who you know are attempting to deceive people, including children, into making life changing decisions on the basis of what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Matt10 I never really thought about any "doctrine" . I just know that they brought the gospel and I accepted Christ. I do realize that they think this is the "only" way but if they thought others could be saved outside of the fellowship then why would they even continue. As long as they keep bringing the gospel to people they are doing their job. We then have to live our own life and decide what is scriptural.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 0:42:35 GMT -5
Virgo, Your response is nonsense and you have avoided answering the questions. I'll ask them again. Are you claiming that the Living Witness Doctrine was never part of the doctrine of the 2x2 sect? If not, then what exactly is it that you are claiming? And what is your basis for making such a claim given that sarecdotal's position seems to be one that is recognisable to many here, including me. Matt10 i answered your first question with am i that will also answer your second question and the third you avoided answering my question by accusing me of not answering yours
I have no further questions. I think people reading here will now be able to make up their own minds as to whether what you have claimed has any basis whatsoever. matt10
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 0:51:54 GMT -5
i answered your first question with am i that will also answer your second question and the third you avoided answering my question by accusing me of not answering yours
I have no further questions. I think people reading here will now be able to make up their own minds as to whether what you have claimed has any basis whatsoever. matt10 good on ya
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 1:14:26 GMT -5
Sunshine It is clear that you don't accept 2x2 doctrine to be true. Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who preach what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who you know are attempting to deceive people, including children, into making life changing decisions on the basis of what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Matt10 I never really thought about any "doctrine" . I just know that they brought the gospel and I accepted Christ. I do realize that they think this is the "only" way but if they thought others could be saved outside of the fellowship then why would they even continue. As long as they keep bringing the gospel to people they are doing their job. We then have to live our own life and decide what is scriptural. Sunshine You may not have really thought about any doctrine but you have acknowledged that you understand that the fundamental only way message which the 2x2 workers preach is not true and that when you hear the workers preach that false message to those who risk being deceived into believing that it is true, you choose to condone the preaching of this false message rather than challenging the workers on it. How does your silent condoning of the preaching of this deception on the basis that you don't wish to risk losing those things which you enjoy, fit with your claim of having accepted Christ? I was taught that accepting Christ meant standing up for honesty and truth and for what you believe to be right - whatever the cost. Matt10
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Post by quizzer on Dec 31, 2013 1:28:12 GMT -5
How would her children have prevented it? I don't think I could have stopped it. Not that I would have because it was their money and their right to leave it to who ever they wanted. However, now that I hear about all the corruption in the worker masses, I feel a little ill about it. You're right. The only reasonable challenge to a will would be if the bequest was made at a time beyond when they were of sound mind. I believe that the promise was made, but wasn't written into the official will. See, the professing lady had lived through a lot of muttering from friends who wanted to take the Sunday morning meeting from her home (so they could have the meeting in their home), and she had had the meeting quickly removed from her home after having it for a decade or so. She was friendly with everyone, but this stuff seriously hurt her in her final years (when she was writing her will and revising it) and she was close to her family. Also, the non-professing family (she was the only remaining professing member) didn't bother inviting the workers to the will-reading. I guess we were lucky to be informed of her passing - yes, I went to her funeral. She was a wonderful lady.
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Post by quizzer on Dec 31, 2013 1:29:00 GMT -5
They live. They howl around my bedroom at night. Wow, never thought about that but by simple logic a "living witness" is one of the "undead" Here I have been preparing for the Zombie apocalypse when I should be preparing to welcome the bearers of "glad tidings". The only problem with preparing for a zombie apocalypse is pretending that it's not exciting!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 1:41:58 GMT -5
I can only speculate as to why he denies the obvious but it is probably wilful opaqueness. Of course no one preaches "my way or you can all go to hell", so because it isn't preached exactly that way, he can deny it and call it lies. This is similar to how people deny the history and still claim that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee". They focus on certain wording to justify their denial even though they know what is really meant. Someone I'm close to and who sat in all of the meetings I sat in as a kid claims today that they have never heard it suggested that only people who go to meetings and profess can be saved. This is someone who otherwise seems to be of sound mind. Is it possible that people are being told to deny that there was ever an exclusive message? That if they are persistent that maybe the rest of us will question our memory of what we grew up hearing?! (There are no questions in my mind about hearing a strongly exclusive message.) I don't think they are deliberately lying, deceiving themselves perhaps. I think sacredotal is onto something: deep down they feel embarrassed by the concept because they know they can't support it. Better to avoid the embarrassment of stating it plainly by vaguely denying that it exists. Workers don't preach it very directly these days because they know they can't defend it, so their story is that they wait for the Spirit to tell people that they are the only ones. That plan isn't working out very well these days because the Spirit isn't revealing it to very many people. It worked much better decades ago when it was preached bluntly and enough people bought it.
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Post by sacerdotal on Dec 31, 2013 8:14:30 GMT -5
have you asked a worker to see if they would question your faith and disapprove of your belief? Uh, virgo.... a fellow in Texas did just that and he was excommunicated by the overseer for the very thing that you claim that the workers in your area of the world believe- that one does not have to believe in the "workers without a home and the church in the home". Can you PM me the name of your overseer and let me send him an email or mail and ask him if others in other faiths can be considered our brothers in sisters in Christ even though they may be Baptist, Episcopalian, Catholic, or whatever- as long as they have personally accepted Christ as their Lord just as we have done, albeit, through a worker? If he replies in the affirmative, which is what you are implying, then why was the fellow in Texas recently excommunicated for believing the same thing? And why would the overseer of Texas, along with thousands of other workers throughout the world, be preaching a different message than what the workers in your area preach? As you say in your part of the world, "good on ya" if that is the case.... I hope to see a PM shortly from you so that we can get the good message out that the workers in your part of the world have dropped the devilish living witness doctrine and are now promoting Christ alone and not themselves, that they have made Christ the cornerstone and not themselves.
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Post by sacerdotal on Dec 31, 2013 8:42:40 GMT -5
Sunshine It is clear that you don't accept 2x2 doctrine to be true. Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who preach what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Do you have any issues with continuing to support those who you know are attempting to deceive people, including children, into making life changing decisions on the basis of what you acknowledge to be a false doctrine? Matt10 I never really thought about any "doctrine" . I just know that they brought the gospel and I accepted Christ. I do realize that they think this is the "only" way but if they thought others could be saved outside of the fellowship then why would they even continue. As long as they keep bringing the gospel to people they are doing their job. We then have to live our own life and decide what is scriptural. Hi Sunshine, I think that a majority of the friends believe as you do. I too believe that I was brought the gospel through the workers and I accepted Christ through their preaching and my upbringing. And that is a wonderful thing. But, I have come to also see things that aren't so wonderful, such as the deception to cover for things that are not of God in the fellowship. As one born in Christ, surely we want no part of lies or the continuation of them, because we know that those things are not of the Father. I cannot abide a bully. And the workers turn into bullies often times when they feel threatened. This is a normal human reaction. So, when they feel threatened, the workers may do as they did in the case of the fellow in Texas, or in Alberta, or in New Zealand, or wherever.... they excommunicate honest people seeking to do what is right so that they (the workers) can continue to perpetuate the myth that they are God's only true Apostles and that we, the professing, are God's only saints in the earth. Some of the workers are real jackasses and jerks. And some are adulterers. And some are rapists. Some are child molesters. And these are the fellows that preach that they are God's only true servants on earth? Yeah, right. God sure has a wicked sense of humor if that is the case. Some workers have literally gone from molesting a child to speaking in a convention a few hours later. The workers and friends mock the Catholic priests, Jimmy Swaggert, and Jim Bakker, while IDOLIZING and EXCUSING men of the EXACT SAME ILK. (But, shh.... such talk is blasphemy... or at least the workers want us to FEEL NERVOUS about speaking the truth about SUCH "HOLY" MEN... as if we were SPEAKING AGAINST GOD. Bull crap. And the next time a worker says or implies such at a convention, it would be refreshing if the entire congregation all said BULL CRAP in unison and pelted the fellow with rotten tomatoes.) There are great workers. Humble, meek, kind, loving, spiritual, Godly, holy, seekers of righteousness, etc. And then there are the others- the ones that are not. And we can discern them by their fruit. But, let's not pretend that just because someone says that they are a worker that they deserve accolades based on title alone.
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Post by snow on Dec 31, 2013 12:19:53 GMT -5
Then I don't understand why he denies hearing what everyone else is hearing. We all know that what sacerdotal said is what they preach. I can only speculate as to why he denies the obvious but it is probably wilful opaqueness. Of course no one preaches "my way or you can all go to hell", so because it isn't preached exactly that way, he can deny it and call it lies. This is similar to how people deny the history and still claim that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee". They focus on certain wording to justify their denial even though they know what is really meant. Semantics? That could be.
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Post by snow on Dec 31, 2013 12:22:45 GMT -5
Perhaps it does depend on the area you are in and the workers that preach. When I was a child I was certain beyond a doubt that "only people who go to meetings will be in heaven". This was more of an influence from my parents than the workers but nothing I ever heard from a worker caused me to doubt it. Later the plight of the American Indian ruined this simplistic line of thought and it went downhill from there. When I was in the work I made sure to never preach exclusivity of "Truth" but rather the requirement of fulfilling Christ's teachings as found in the Bible or revealed by the Holy Spirit. I can guarantee this is what I said but I can't guarantee that is what people remember hearing. I do remember hearing one young couple who were somewhat proud of their child telling a school mate (about 8-10 years old) that she was "going to hell" because she was part of a "false church". This child's mother phoned them up and was understandably furious. This young couple felt that being yelled at was somehow "proof" they were right having suffered affliction. To my surprise, my companion agreed with them; I was a bit disgusted with the whole thing. One of many little things that made me realize that I could not continue in the 2x2 ministry. Yes, for some reason when people don't agree with Christians they believe they have been persecuted. And, persecution somehow proves they are right and righteous. Therefore being persecuted is considered to be a good thing because it confirms they are right and everyone else is wrong. Twisted logic and rather circular in nature.
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Post by snow on Dec 31, 2013 12:24:36 GMT -5
Then I don't understand why he denies hearing what everyone else is hearing. We all know that what sacerdotal said is what they preach. Because the central doctrine is an embarrassment. As it should be. It was the reason I questioned the workers when I was 12 and it's the reason why I left the truth and christianity in general.
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Post by snow on Dec 31, 2013 12:28:48 GMT -5
I know where you learned the 'shame on you' mindset. That is one of the biggest tools workers use on their members to keep them in line. Guilt and shame. You just used it on sacerdotal. Tells me you've fallen for that kind of control tactics too. so in other words you are telling me i am lying? No. I am referring to your comment 'Shame on you' to negate someone else's experience. That's how the workers try to keep people quiet when they are telling a truth they don't want to have circulated. They will try to shame you into silence. Has nothing to do with you lying. It has to do with how you try to shame someone else into being quiet.
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Post by matisse on Dec 31, 2013 12:34:45 GMT -5
am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead They live. They howl around my bedroom at night. If they seem very hungry and they attempt to eat you it may only be the early rumblings of the zombie apocalypse.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 31, 2013 16:10:34 GMT -5
I live and have lived in Illinois soon be 82 years. I did spent a about year on the east coast in Philadelphia.
I went to meeting in the home where George Walker got his mail.
Where do YOU live?
If you really believe what you are posting, you must live somewhere in the darkest of all places, -either that or you are have been deceived by the workers, -or you are hiding your head in the sand, -or you are willfuly in denial of the reality of a foundational tenet of the so-called **TRUTH**
Take your pick. i didn't ask you where you lived No, true, -virgo, you asked, "do you live where i live?"
So, I told you where I live. How can I answer your question, "do you live where i live?" if I don't tell you where I live so that you can tell me where you live so we can see if we live in the same place!
It is hard for me to take you seriously.
You just play word games and evade answering questions, yet "shame" people like "sacerdotal" who do answer questions and state the truth.
"The 2x2 fellowships cornerstone message is this: "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you." None of the other trappings of righteousness mean anything since the central, most unifying belief is not Christ's message- but the message of "Preachers without a home, and a church in a home". To be saved as a 2x2 one must believe in the workers, belief in Jesus is a secondary requirement. Until the self-serving (for the workers) living witness doctrine is cast aside, the fellowship is not in line with Christ."
Those of us posting here have said that was the way that we had been taught to believe; "To be saved as a 2x2 one must believe in the workers," Yet, you maintain you were not taught that way.
I don't think that you just don't want to believe it.
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Post by sunshine on Dec 31, 2013 17:44:55 GMT -5
have you asked a worker to see if they would question your faith and disapprove of your belief? Uh, virgo.... a fellow in Texas did just that and he was excommunicated by the overseer for the very thing that you claim that the workers in your area of the world believe- that one does not have to believe in the "workers without a home and the church in the home". Can you PM me the name of your overseer and let me send him an email or mail and ask him if others in other faiths can be considered our brothers in sisters in Christ even though they may be Baptist, Episcopalian, Catholic, or whatever- as long as they have personally accepted Christ as their Lord just as we have done, albeit, through a worker? If he replies in the affirmative, which is what you are implying, then why was the fellow in Texas recently excommunicated for believing the same thing? And why would the overseer of Texas, along with thousands of other workers throughout the world, be preaching a different message than what the workers in your area preach? As you say in your part of the world, "good on ya" if that is the case.... I hope to see a PM shortly from you so that we can get the good message out that the workers in your part of the world have dropped the devilish living witness doctrine and are now promoting Christ alone and not themselves, that they have made Christ the cornerstone and not themselves. [/ quote] Virgo, exactly why I have no desire to ask... Look where it got BM. I am comfortable with the status of things the way they are. Why don't You ask about these things and see what happens..
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