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Post by déjà vu on Dec 30, 2013 13:48:12 GMT -5
Blandie's quote
"Yes people put the workers into their wills and leave all or substantial money and property to the control of their overseer."
I remember a time when the worker would discourage the friends from leaving money to them in their will
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Post by Jason Storebo on Dec 30, 2013 14:32:49 GMT -5
I agree with most things you said. I have never heard of someone bequeathing an estate to a worker. Although it must happen since you said so. Rest assured, it happens a lot. Not that many people leave their whole estate to the ministry, but lots leave substantial amounts. The fact that you haven't heard of it is testimony of the level of secrecy surrounding financial issues. Lots of people haven't heard of it and most of those who have, have no idea what happens to the money once it does land under ministry control.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Dec 30, 2013 14:42:01 GMT -5
....incidentally the realtor andi his wife have mtg in the home where dad gets his care .
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Post by matisse on Dec 30, 2013 15:10:34 GMT -5
"For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second to them. We are all human. We are not all of the same religion, or religious at all. One cannot protect religious rights if they are used as a reason to abuse human rights, human equalities, as so often they are." Deborah Orr- The GuardianI'm curious whether people like this part of the OP all on its own....without any references to the 2x2's.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 15:27:06 GMT -5
I am the heir to the inheritance placed in the trust of an executor...who seems to be a top elder, and church financial expert. I never professed, but was raised in the 2x2 faith. The will states that I am to come into the full inheritance when my ninety-0ne year old dad passes away, but that if I preceded Dad in death, then it goes to the church.
Although the executor is five years younger than myself, it creates an awkward sort of step dad- step son situation. I subsist on the amount of money that he portions out for monthly living expenses. I subsist on either one meal a day, and/or help from the Salvation Army...he does electronically pay my rent, however, and utilities, at the apt. where I've lived since I vacated the family home so that it could be sold...which it, indeed, has been....by his brother-in-law, who is a realtor, and in whom Dad receives his excellent care through his wife. Now that the house and property have been sold I am quite naturally hoping for a raise in my living standards. Then down-the-road when the tough old Norwegian passes... I get the rest. In the meantime Dad is getting the highest quality care and now his upkeep is guaranteed....right? I am getting the impression that you feel something is not fair or right in the above situation but I can't see what it is. If that's the case, a further explanation is necessary.
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Post by sunshine on Dec 30, 2013 16:32:05 GMT -5
I am the heir to the inheritance placed in the trust of an executor...who seems to be a top elder, and church financial expert. I never professed, but was raised in the 2x2 faith. The will states that I am to come into the full inheritance when my ninety-0ne year old dad passes away,k but that if I preceded Dad in death, then it goes to the church.
Although the executor is five years younger than myself, it creates an awkward sort of step dad- step son situation. I subsist on the amount of money that he portions out for monthly living expenses. I subsist on either one meal a day, and/or help from the Salvation Army...he does electronically pay my rent, however, and utilities, at the apt. where I've lived since I vacated the family home so that it could be sold...which it, indeed, has been....by his brother-in-law, who is a realtor, and in whom Dad receives his excellent care through his wife. Now that the house and property have been sold I am quite naturally hoping for a raise in my living standards. Then down-the-road when the tough old Norwegian passes... I get the rest. In the meantime Dad is getting the highest quality care and now his upkeep is guaranteed....right? Not to pry, but are you unable to work or to find work right now?
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Post by snow on Dec 30, 2013 17:35:53 GMT -5
"For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second to them. We are all human. We are not all of the same religion, or religious at all. One cannot protect religious rights if they are used as a reason to abuse human rights, human equalities, as so often they are." Deborah Orr- The GuardianExactly. Or as Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Or, even better, "Love your enemies." The 2x2 fellowships cornerstone message is this: "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you." None of the other trappings of righteousness mean anything since the central, most unifying belief is not Christ's message- but the message of "Preachers without a home, and a church in a home". To be saved as a 2x2 one must believe in the workers, belief in Jesus is a secondary requirement. Until the self-serving (for the workers) living witness doctrine is cast aside, the fellowship is not in line with Christ. i have never ever known this "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you." so to me it's a complete untruth, poppycock and the rest of what you have written does not line up with anything i have just heard at convention these sort of things written like this are lies to me shame on you I know where you learned the 'shame on you' mindset. That is one of the biggest tools workers use on their members to keep them in line. Guilt and shame. You just used it on sacerdotal. Tells me you've fallen for that kind of control tactics too.
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Post by snow on Dec 30, 2013 17:47:02 GMT -5
Yes. I wrote it, believe it, and once preached it as a worker. Of course, we didn't preach it so bluntly. We were subtle. We didn't just come right out and say, "Hey, morons, we are the only right way. We are God's only true preachers. And if you aren't a member of our fellowship, the chosen few, then you are going to burn in hell with the rest of the Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, grandmothers (except for the professing ones that were in good standing with the Lord), Muslims, cartographers (except for the professing ones that were in good standing with the Lord), etc." like i posted i have never ever known this so to me it's a load of lies and what i read in notes and hear from workers both national and international do not bear out what you say Just because it hasn't been your experience doesn't mean you get to tell someone else it's a load of lies. It is the experience of a lot of people. Maybe you are the one that isn't getting the message. In any case saying someone else experience is a load of lies says a lot about you.
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Post by snow on Dec 30, 2013 17:49:13 GMT -5
My parents did so I know first hand that they definitely leave estate money to workers and in substantial sums too. An old childless couple in our meeting has made in clear that they will leave their entire estate to the work. We had a sister worker ask us if we were going to leave our estate to the work since we are childless also. The answer to that is 'no.' They actually had the guts to come out and ask you to leave them your estate? Wow. That's pretty tacky!
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Post by snow on Dec 30, 2013 17:52:00 GMT -5
An old childless couple in our meeting has made in clear that they will leave their entire estate to the work. We had a sister worker ask us if we were going to leave our estate to the work since we are childless also. The answer to that is 'no.' I know of one older, wealthy professing woman who passed away, and her non-professing family made sure no money was left to the workers. The only exceptional part was that several friends and the workers had expected for her will to bequeath money to the workers. Somehow, gospel meetings were not held for those non-professing members of the family. How would her children have prevented it? I don't think I could have stopped it. Not that I would have because it was their money and their right to leave it to who ever they wanted. However, now that I hear about all the corruption in the worker masses, I feel a little ill about it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 18:28:41 GMT -5
like i posted i have never ever known this so to me it's a load of lies and what i read in notes and hear from workers both national and international do not bear out what you say Just because it hasn't been your experience doesn't mean you get to tell someone else it's a load of lies. It is the experience of a lot of people. Maybe you are the one that isn't getting the message. In any case saying someone else experience is a load of lies says a lot about you. It has been his experience. The workers in his area as as exclusive as they are anywhere in the world.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 18:29:36 GMT -5
I know of one older, wealthy professing woman who passed away, and her non-professing family made sure no money was left to the workers. The only exceptional part was that several friends and the workers had expected for her will to bequeath money to the workers. Somehow, gospel meetings were not held for those non-professing members of the family. How would her children have prevented it? I don't think I could have stopped it. Not that I would have because it was their money and their right to leave it to who ever they wanted. However, now that I hear about all the corruption in the worker masses, I feel a little ill about it. You're right. The only reasonable challenge to a will would be if the bequest was made at a time beyond when they were of sound mind.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 30, 2013 20:30:39 GMT -5
"For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second to them. We are all human. We are not all of the same religion, or religious at all. One cannot protect religious rights if they are used as a reason to abuse human rights, human equalities, as so often they are." Deborah Orr- The GuardianExactly. Or as Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Or, even better, "Love your enemies." T he 2x2 fellowships cornerstone message is this: "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you." None of the other trappings of righteousness mean anything since the central, most unifying belief is not Christ's message- but the message of "Preachers without a home, and a church in a home". To be saved as a 2x2 one must believe in the workers, belief in Jesus is a secondary requirement. Until the self-serving (for the workers) living witness doctrine is cast aside, the fellowship is not in line with Christ. i have never ever known this "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you." so to me it's a complete untruth, poppycock and the rest of what you have written does not line up with anything i have just heard at convention these sort of things written like this are lies to me shame on you sacerdotal's statements are correct; "The 2x2 fellowships cornerstone message is this: "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you."
"To be saved as a 2x2 one must believe in the workers," Virgo, where have you been all your life?
In a cave somewhere with your hands over your ears so that you don't hear anything that you don't want to hear?
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Post by jamiek8407 on Dec 30, 2013 20:50:33 GMT -5
I have to say to Virgo. I still go to meetings and you must live in a very unique place because it has been my experience growing up that the majority of the people have that mindset so I am not sure what you have been missing
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Post by snow on Dec 30, 2013 21:34:42 GMT -5
Just because it hasn't been your experience doesn't mean you get to tell someone else it's a load of lies. It is the experience of a lot of people. Maybe you are the one that isn't getting the message. In any case saying someone else experience is a load of lies says a lot about you. It has been his experience. The workers in his area as as exclusive as they are anywhere in the world. Then I don't understand why he denies hearing what everyone else is hearing. We all know that what sacerdotal said is what they preach.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 21:47:51 GMT -5
It has been his experience. The workers in his area as as exclusive as they are anywhere in the world. Then I don't understand why he denies hearing what everyone else is hearing. We all know that what sacerdotal said is what they preach. I can only speculate as to why he denies the obvious but it is probably wilful opaqueness. Of course no one preaches "my way or you can all go to hell", so because it isn't preached exactly that way, he can deny it and call it lies. This is similar to how people deny the history and still claim that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee". They focus on certain wording to justify their denial even though they know what is really meant.
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Post by matisse on Dec 30, 2013 22:08:17 GMT -5
Then I don't understand why he denies hearing what everyone else is hearing. We all know that what sacerdotal said is what they preach. I can only speculate as to why he denies the obvious but it is probably wilful opaqueness. Of course no one preaches "my way or you can all go to hell", so because it isn't preached exactly that way, he can deny it and call it lies. This is similar to how people deny the history and still claim that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee". They focus on certain wording to justify their denial even though they know what is really meant. Someone I'm close to and who sat in all of the meetings I sat in as a kid claims today that they have never heard it suggested that only people who go to meetings and profess can be saved. This is someone who otherwise seems to be of sound mind. Is it possible that people are being told to deny that there was ever an exclusive message? That if they are persistent that maybe the rest of us will question our memory of what we grew up hearing?! (There are no questions in my mind about hearing a strongly exclusive message.)
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Post by gecko45 on Dec 30, 2013 22:28:03 GMT -5
Perhaps it does depend on the area you are in and the workers that preach.
When I was a child I was certain beyond a doubt that "only people who go to meetings will be in heaven". This was more of an influence from my parents than the workers but nothing I ever heard from a worker caused me to doubt it.
Later the plight of the American Indian ruined this simplistic line of thought and it went downhill from there.
When I was in the work I made sure to never preach exclusivity of "Truth" but rather the requirement of fulfilling Christ's teachings as found in the Bible or revealed by the Holy Spirit. I can guarantee this is what I said but I can't guarantee that is what people remember hearing.
I do remember hearing one young couple who were somewhat proud of their child telling a school mate (about 8-10 years old) that she was "going to hell" because she was part of a "false church". This child's mother phoned them up and was understandably furious. This young couple felt that being yelled at was somehow "proof" they were right having suffered affliction. To my surprise, my companion agreed with them; I was a bit disgusted with the whole thing. One of many little things that made me realize that I could not continue in the 2x2 ministry.
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Post by sacerdotal on Dec 30, 2013 22:35:38 GMT -5
Perhaps it does depend on the area you are in and the workers that preach. When I was a child I was certain beyond a doubt that "only people who go to meetings will be in heaven". This was more of an influence from my parents than the workers but nothing I ever heard from a worker caused me to doubt it. Later the plight of the American Indian ruined this simplistic line of thought and it went downhill from there. When I was in the work I made sure to never preach exclusivity of "Truth" but rather the requirement of fulfilling Christ's teachings as found in the Bible or revealed by the Holy Spirit. I can guarantee this is what I said but I can't guarantee that is what people remember hearing. I do remember hearing one young couple who were somewhat proud of their child telling a school mate (about 8-10 years old) that she was "going to hell" because she was part of a "false church". This child's mother phoned them up and was understandably furious. This young couple felt that being yelled at was somehow "proof" they were right having suffered affliction. To my surprise, my companion agreed with them; I was a bit disgusted with the whole thing. One of many little things that made me realize that I could not continue in the 2x2 ministry. It is worse than that now- the overseer of Texas excommunicated a fellow for not believing in the "workers without a home and the church in the home" as being the only right way. This happened this year. It is OK to not believe in this 2x2 way being the only way, it just isn't OK to say so publicly- especially in a meeting or at convention. The workers really are blind to the fact that by not being able to speak openly and bluntly about the belief is an indictment against the belief. The living witness belief is a shame and a glory to the fellowship. And it is a stone around the fellowships neck that is dragging it down.
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Post by sacerdotal on Dec 30, 2013 22:45:22 GMT -5
It has been his experience. The workers in his area as as exclusive as they are anywhere in the world. Then I don't understand why he denies hearing what everyone else is hearing. We all know that what sacerdotal said is what they preach. Because the central doctrine is an embarrassment.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 30, 2013 22:51:02 GMT -5
Perhaps it does depend on the area you are in and the workers that preach.When I was a child I was certain beyond a doubt that "only people who go to meetings will be in heaven". This was more of an influence from my parents than the workers but nothing I ever heard from a worker caused me to doubt it. Later the plight of the American Indian ruined this simplistic line of thought and it went downhill from there. When I was in the work I made sure to never preach exclusivity of "Truth" but rather the requirement of fulfilling Christ's teachings as found in the Bible or revealed by the Holy Spirit. I can guarantee this is what I said but I can't guarantee that is what people remember hearing. I do remember hearing one young couple who were somewhat proud of their child telling a school mate (about 8-10 years old) that she was "going to hell" because she was part of a "false church". This child's mother phoned them up and was understandably furious. This young couple felt that being yelled at was somehow "proof" they were right having suffered affliction. To my surprise, my companion agreed with them; I was a bit disgusted with the whole thing. One of many little things that made me realize that I could not continue in the 2x2 ministry. I doubt very much if it was just the area that one is in and that the workers in that area would preach something so different!
It is too much of an extremely important foundational tenet of the **TRUTH** to disregard in that fashion!
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Post by sunshine on Dec 30, 2013 22:53:35 GMT -5
Perhaps it does depend on the area you are in and the workers that preach. When I was a child I was certain beyond a doubt that "only people who go to meetings will be in heaven". This was more of an influence from my parents than the workers but nothing I ever heard from a worker caused me to doubt it. Later the plight of the American Indian ruined this simplistic line of thought and it went downhill from there. When I was in the work I made sure to never preach exclusivity of "Truth" but rather the requirement of fulfilling Christ's teachings as found in the Bible or revealed by the Holy Spirit. I can guarantee this is what I said but I can't guarantee that is what people remember hearing. I do remember hearing one young couple who were somewhat proud of their child telling a school mate (about 8-10 years old) that she was "going to hell" because she was part of a "false church". This child's mother phoned them up and was understandably furious. This young couple felt that being yelled at was somehow "proof" they were right having suffered affliction. To my surprise, my companion agreed with them; I was a bit disgusted with the whole thing. One of many little things that made me realize that I could not continue in the 2x2 ministry. It is worse than that now- the overseer of Texas excommunicated a fellow for not believing in the "workers without a home and the church in the home" as being the only right way. This happened this year. It is OK to not believe in this 2x2 way being the only way, it just isn't OK to say so publicly- especially in a meeting or at convention. The workers really are blind to the fact that by not being able to speak openly and bluntly about the belief is an indictment against the belief. The living witness belief is a shame and a glory to the fellowship. And it is a stone around the fellowships neck that is dragging it down. I don't believe in exclusivity but , like you said, I would never speak about it. I have talked to quite a few friends who feel the same way, but we keep it amongst ourselves, and certainly would never bring it up with the workers..
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Post by sacerdotal on Dec 30, 2013 23:00:22 GMT -5
I don't believe in exclusivity but , like you said, I would never speak about it. I have talked to quite a few friends who feel the same way, but we keep it amongst ourselves, and certainly would never bring it up with the workers.. I have spoken with quite a few friends who feel the same way as well- that there are others saved outside of our fellowship and one does not have to hear through a worker to be saved. But, isn't it strange that the central tenet- the belief in the workers as the only true preachers and this way as the only true fellowship- cannot be spoken about to strangers for fear of offending them- and cannot be discussed openly with the workers- lest one be excommunicated or put on the watch list as a trouble maker? That is mind boggling. The chief belief cannot be discussed openly or freely with neither outsiders or insiders.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:09:54 GMT -5
All 14 of my assigned companions at the time, as well as myself, believed as sacerdotal has stated, though like he says, not so blatantly "in your face." However, that IS what the doctrine (teaching) was and I was as guilty as the next in believing it, and promoting it, quite successfully too, for which I AM now ashamed. Even one of those former companions has repented that belief and doctrine. Virgo simply refuses to accept what many of us had been taught since our very conception. you are so correct i do refuse to accept what was mentioned in the first post because i have not been taught that in fact we in this country in my hearing have been taught by our head worker that we are not to judge in thought, deed or by tongue any one else's faith even by our own faith not even by what we believe and you know this because you know i have stated that before the way sacerdotal paints it in the first post it was the only thing he taught and that he taught in you face, you may have spoken these things i don't disagree with that but i bet you on your life that was not the only thing you preached about how about some balance here and show the percentage of time you spoke on what sacerdotal posted and what you spoke about on God and His Son
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:16:22 GMT -5
Virgo simply refuses to accept what many of us had been taught since our very conception. Virgo accepts it, he just doesn't like for the truth to be told and put on a candlestick for all to see. no that is the truth as you and some others see it but remember we are not all in your country like i said i have just been to convention here and there was not one mention in the slightest of what you have posted i have done a search on my computer on the many thousands of notes i have and there was scant mention of what you posted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:19:06 GMT -5
like i posted i have never ever known this so to me it's a load of lies and what i read in notes and hear from workers both national and international do not bear out what you say Virgo Are you claiming that the Living Witness Doctrine was never part of the doctrine of the 2x2 sect? If not, then what exactly is it that you are claiming? And what is your basis for making such a claim given that sarecdotal's position seems to be one that is recognisable to many here, including me. Matt10 am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:21:18 GMT -5
i have never ever known this "We are right, you are wrong- so to hell with you." so to me it's a complete untruth, poppycock and the rest of what you have written does not line up with anything i have just heard at convention these sort of things written like this are lies to me shame on you I know where you learned the 'shame on you' mindset. That is one of the biggest tools workers use on their members to keep them in line. Guilt and shame. You just used it on sacerdotal. Tells me you've fallen for that kind of control tactics too. so in other words you are telling me i am lying?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 30, 2013 23:22:58 GMT -5
Virgo Are you claiming that the Living Witness Doctrine was never part of the doctrine of the 2x2 sect? If not, then what exactly is it that you are claiming? And what is your basis for making such a claim given that sarecdotal's position seems to be one that is recognisable to many here, including me. Matt10 am i? did Jesus send out living witnesses? or were they dead They live. They howl around my bedroom at night.
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