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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 4:58:02 GMT -5
Hey Ramsey, if you want me to get involved with CPA you'll have to play nicely with me. Here's how it will be: Zero tolerance of sex with children and Zero tolerance of hitting children. If you want to make exceptions I won't be able to play in the same sandbox with you. This is where you need to learn a wee bit common sense fixit. CSA has never had a role in disciplining or correcting children. It is generally a physical assault upon a child with a sexual motive or element. There is no "good" or beneficial side to it. On many occasions CPA is the abuse of physical disciplinary measures, but on many occasions it is nothing more than bullying, sadism, control, etc. Both can have identical psychological and emotional effects upon the victims, which is where our real concerns should lie. I am glad to see that while you are keen to distance yourself from CPA and other non-CSA abuse issues, that others are showing real concern, whatever their opinions may be. Remember, we are seriously discussing "CHILD ABUSE" and what is recognised to constitute that. Your attempt at showing support for "zero tolerance" with regards to physically chastising children is nothing more than a veneer over your previous record of utter disregard even for the most serious cases of child physical abuse and other child abuse issues. Remember, it is not me who is making any exceptions. Those in favour of Child physical chastisement don't need to look any further than the Bile, or in most countries the law, or cultures, etc. If you seriously are interested even in addressing CSA, you will realise the importance of formulating opinions and procedures, guidelines etc, commensurate with the law, since any case that is reported to the authorities will be investigated and reported upon with regards to the standards of the law. It might not have occurred to you but this identically applies to every other category of child abuse. If you want to be serious with your interest then you have to be guided by what the law prescribes. You have the liberty of your own personal opinions, but when it gets down to addressing matters in the proper legal context, your opinions will have to go out the window and you will be governed by other recognised factors. The sooner you embank on this route, the sooner you will be able to be of some meaningful assistance in the specialised journey you have embarked upon. My own personal opinions with regards to the matter of child physical chastisement are dictated by personal experiences at the sharp end, the law, what the pro-lobby states, what the anti lobby states and what I believe is the best way forward after having weighed all these factors up.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2013 5:08:55 GMT -5
Hey Ramsey, if you want me to get involved with CPA you'll have to play nicely with me. Here's how it will be: Zero tolerance of sex with children and Zero tolerance of hitting children. If you want to make exceptions I won't be able to play in the same sandbox with you. This is where you need to learn a wee bit common sense fixit. CSA has never had a role in disciplining or correcting children. It is generally a physical assault upon a child with a sexual motive or element. There is no "good" or beneficial side to it. On many occasions CPA is the abuse of physically disciplinary measures, but on many occasions it is nothing more than bullying, sadism, control, etc. Both can have identical psychological and emotional effects upon the victims. I am glad to see that while you are keen to distance yourself from CPA and other non-CSA abuse issues, that others are showing real concern, whatever their opinions may be. Remember, we are seriously discussing "CHILD ABUSE" and what is recognised to constitute that. Your attempt at showing support for "zero tolerance" with regards to physically chastising children is nothing more than a veneer over your previous record of utter disregard even for the most serious cases of child physical abuse and other child abuse issues. Not true. I'm absolutely against violence of any kind toward children. Where we differ is that I think CSA should be confronted separately due to the unique nature of it. CSA mostly has the co-operation of the child, and this is one of the reasons its so difficult to deal with. The victim feels profound shame until he/she can come to accept that its not the victim's fault.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 5:24:33 GMT -5
This is where you need to learn a wee bit common sense fixit. CSA has never had a role in disciplining or correcting children. It is generally a physical assault upon a child with a sexual motive or element. There is no "good" or beneficial side to it. On many occasions CPA is the abuse of physically disciplinary measures, but on many occasions it is nothing more than bullying, sadism, control, etc. Both can have identical psychological and emotional effects upon the victims. I am glad to see that while you are keen to distance yourself from CPA and other non-CSA abuse issues, that others are showing real concern, whatever their opinions may be. Remember, we are seriously discussing "CHILD ABUSE" and what is recognised to constitute that. Your attempt at showing support for "zero tolerance" with regards to physically chastising children is nothing more than a veneer over your previous record of utter disregard even for the most serious cases of child physical abuse and other child abuse issues. Not true. I'm absolutely against violence of any kind toward children. So am I. Can you please provide "verbatim" the definition of "violence" from your dictionary?
Where we differ is that I think CSA should be confronted separately due to the unique nature of it. There are definately some very different characteristics between CSA and other forms of child abuse, however keep in mind the long term effects are very often very similar in character. Again it is wrong to compare category with category with regards to seriousness. This is far more sensibly and correctly done on a case by case basis. I do not agree that CSA "NEEDS" to be dealt with separately, but I have no problem whatsoever with people specialising in it. We all need specialists, but those who specialise generally see the reality of a more general field.
Specialising need not be separating. In many instances CSA is and will be accompanied by CPA, emotional abuse, neglect, etc. In these cases it cannot be separated. Very often it does not occur in isolation of other abuses. Perhaps in relation to workers it does so more commonly, but that could give an erroneous overall picture. Also child abuses are often part of overall domestic abuse issues, which are often far more serious than the child abuse issues. An overall approach is often not only unavoidable but best practice.
Specialise if that is your desire, but keep an open mind and keep your options open. Don't look for excuses to justify specialisation and downplay other issues for this purpose. If you want to specialise then that is reason enough. Don't let it be detrimental to other serious issues.
CSA mostly has the co-operation of the child, and this is one of the reasons its so difficult to deal with. The victim feels profound shame until he/she can come to accept that its not the victim's fault. I think you need to understand "co-operation." Being psychologicaly overpowered (adult versus young child)can lead to coercion being interpreted as co-operation?
Most occasions of child abuse are difficult to recognise and deal with. There is no uniqueness in that. Look at the examples on this thread even, and they are not in relation to CSA.
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theolegranni
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Post by theolegranni on Aug 11, 2013 11:48:36 GMT -5
Hitting "ANYTHING" is not OK. Some parents continue to insist that a couple "swats" are necessary to keep that child in line. I have to admit that there were times with my own child that I was tempted to smack her backside, to make a point. I resisted my human nature, to resort to violence. INSTEAD I took a hard cold look at what had happened to me, to make me think it was OK to hit.. Once I figured out that any type of violence was totally unacceptable, I was able to redirect my own behaviors. Once I had read and re-read the book I spoke about before, it became crystal clear that a child's psyche could and probably would be severely damaged. I was able to find other ways to discipline her. I also studied the impact of abuse being passed down for one generation to another, it made it even easier to resist that legacy. I also remember a scripture Eph:6-4.. Which says that parents are not to provoke their children to wrath" Which means to me that if I present "wrath" as an acceptable emotion, it was NOT what the Lord wants us parents to teach our children. Earlier in that same chapter it says for children to respect and honor our parents. I have never raised my hand in anger to anything. Wrath is a scary emotion, and over my life I have worked very hard to NOT utilize it at all. Just my 2cents worth. LOVE to all theolegranni
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 12:20:32 GMT -5
theolegranni, there are many parents who find it "necessary" for one reason or another to discipline their children with measured and controlled physical chastisement. The law recognises the need for this. However, many parents do not find it necessary to do so. Children and parents vary considerably in character and what applies to one may not apply to another. I was amongst the fortunate parents myself. However, I have to weigh up other considerations and come to a common sense overall understanding, not one based upon my own experience or opinions.
Physical chastisement should never be an outlet for anger. Nor should it ever be systematic. Both of these could lead to the command in Eph. 6.4?
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theolegranni
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Post by theolegranni on Aug 11, 2013 13:35:23 GMT -5
I fully understand that some parents find it "necessary"..to "discipline" their children. There were many of those in my family of origin. I also was extremely fortunate, in that I was able to turn my legacy of abuse around, and thus I have a daughter that I refused to abuse, and she in turn has my grandson, who is not abused. This ability on this issue has nothing to do with me, it was always the Hand of God working in my life. God's mercy on me, was ALWAYS there, and saved me more than once from performing, or being involved in evil... KINDLY understand I was no angel, and probably caused many difficulties, and grey hairs in my parents. I was rebellious at best, however I believe that my "innate" rebellion, made room in my brain for independent thought, out and around the twisted theology of the 2x2's, and thus I was eventually able to abandon the group. Just more cents worth!! Love to all theolegranni
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 14:14:36 GMT -5
I fully understand that some parents find it "necessary"..to "discipline" their children. There were many of those in my family of origin. I also was extremely fortunate, in that I was able to turn my legacy of abuse around, and thus I have a daughter that I refused to abuse, and she in turn has my grandson, who is not abused. This ability on this issue has nothing to do with me, it was always the Hand of God working in my life. God's mercy on me, was ALWAYS there, and saved me more than once from performing, or being involved in evil... KINDLY understand I was no angel, and probably caused many difficulties, and grey hairs in my parents. I was rebellious at best, however I believe that my "innate" rebellion, made room in my brain for independent thought, out and around the twisted theology of the 2x2's, and thus I was eventually able to abandon the group. Just more cents worth!! Love to all theolegranni Keep inputting tog. You are coming out with many interesting things which have given me much food for thought. I mentioned in a recent post somewhere that I sat on a short-term committee to look at correlation between cruelty to animals and cruelty to children and you brought up one such example with your Father's cruelty to a cow. It is now recognised that a child witnessing one parent/partner physically or verbally abused by the other can cause emotional abuse to the child, even though both parents may love the child and act in a non-abusive way to the child. It struck me when you said that you wished your Father would stop hitting the cow and would start hitting you instead, that when children witness acts of cruelty to the lower animals that it may cause emotional abuse to the child? Just my thoughts on the matter and more ingredients for the pot. It shows how all abuse issues can be linked. Furthermore, it is commonly recognised that many abusers were once victims of abuse themselves and this is used to show that abuse causes abuse. I have no argument with that, BUT, I have a feeling that MANY people like yourself, as a result of suffering real physical abuse become strongly opposed to abuse and indeed even child physical chastisement. They become the opposite of the way they were treated, not following the example. When I think about this, I am accruing many examples that I can relate to; indeed far more than abuse creating abusers. However, my scope is limited in extent and I am merely relating this as an observation not as an opinion or categorical statement. I am of the opinion though, that many people in the anti physical chastisement lobby were indeed excessively disciplined during their upbringing. Many others who were apparently physically chastised within the law, or the overstepping was not too extreme, appear to be found within the pr-chastisement lobby. I can read a reference to "spiritual abuse" towards the end of your post and I for one see this as a deep rooted problem which in the past I'm sure created cultural and environmental factors that resulted in cases of abuse as people tried hard to live up to the expectations.
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theolegranni
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Post by theolegranni on Aug 11, 2013 14:54:17 GMT -5
Thank you Ram,for your insight.... While I fully believe in spiritual abuse, whether it is premeditated, or merely as a result of "those folks environment". I have come to realize that spiritual abuse in my background existed, it was not premeditated... My grandparents, and parents, had no realization of premeditation, they were only doing what was expected of them, by the workers. Spare the rod, spoil the child, was rampant in my childhood. They were "doing" what had been demanded them," by the workers. Those poor folks were ignorant, they had NO ability whatsoever to understand "spiritual abuse" THAT term would have been totally foreign to my ancestors... THAT term, spiritual abuse is a new term... AND those of us that have lived thru the "spiritual abuse of the 2x2's" have an understanding what it means, BUT my feeling is that, in the case of my ancestors, they would have had no clue what was meant by that word...AND INDEED, many children felt unloved, isolated, abandoned, and basically SCARED< BUT they as children had no idea what it was all about. AND children in those days, were to be seen and NOT heard... Children had no right whatsoever, in those days to complain or whine about what was happening with them. Children in those days, would not have felt safe in verbalizing their concerns, they KNEW that they would be punished for verbalizing "ANYTHING" to "ANYONE"!!! I remember my parents telling me....... " GO ahead and whine and I will GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO WHINE about" which meant another beating... OR in my case, it was mostly "Go and ahead and cry and I will give you something to cry about" I learned EARLY on, to keep still...... My parents in the 40's-50's-60's, would not have given a rats ### if I was hurt or not, they had been told by the "workers" that they only way to deal with a verbal, or rebellious child was to beat them. PERIOD!!!!!!!!! These people did not have the opportunity for real understanding of any type of abuse, child, sex, spiritual, or any other kind. One more element that existed during my childhood, was the fact that my grandparents fully expected that I would become an obediant, compliant child, and my grandparents didn't give a rat's ### what it would take to keep me in line. AND one set of grandparents were not even 2x2's. Please understand, again, that I had gone to college for 7 years following high school, and had taken a number of college level courses that opened the door for my further understanding what was going on, with my family. Once again I have seen the Lord's hand in my life... ALL MY LOVE theolegranni
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theolegranni
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Post by theolegranni on Aug 11, 2013 14:56:44 GMT -5
Thank you Ram,for your insight.... While I fully believe in spiritual abuse, whether it is premeditated, or merely as a result of "those folks environment". I have come to realize that spiritual abuse in my background existed, it was not premeditated... My grandparents, and parents, had no realization of premeditation, they were only doing what was expected of them, by the workers. Spare the rod, spoil the child, was rampant in my childhood. They were "doing" what had been demanded them," by the workers. Those poor folks were ignorant, they had NO ability whatsoever to understand "spiritual abuse" THAT term would have been totally foreign to my ancestors... THAT term, spiritual abuse is a new term... AND those of us that have lived thru the "spiritual abuse of the 2x2's" have an understanding what it means, BUT my feeling is that, in the case of my ancestors, they would have had no clue what was meant by that word...AND INDEED, many children felt unloved, isolated, abandoned, and basically SCARED< BUT they as children had no idea what it was all about. AND children in those days, were to be seen and NOT heard... Children had no right whatsoever, in those days to complain or whine about what was happening with them. Children in those days, would not have felt safe in verbalizing their concerns, they KNEW that they would be punished for verbalizing "ANYTHING" to "ANYONE"!!! I remember my parents telling me....... " GO ahead and whine and I will GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO WHINE about" which meant another beating... OR in my case, it was mostly "Go and ahead and cry and I will give you something to cry about" I learned EARLY on, to keep still...... My parents in the 40's-50's-60's, would not have given a rats ### if I was hurt or not, they had been told by the "workers" that they only way to deal with a verbal, or rebellious child was to beat them. PERIOD!!!!!!!!! These people did not have the opportunity for real understanding of any type of abuse, child, sex, spiritual, or any other kind. One more element that existed during my childhood, was the fact that my grandparents fully expected that I would become an obedient, compliant child, and my grandparents didn't give a rat's ### what it would take to keep me in line. AND one set of grandparents were not even 2x2's. Please understand, again, that I had gone to college for 7 years following high school, and had taken a number of college level courses that opened the door for my further understanding what was going on, with my family. Once again I have seen the Lord's hand in my life... ALL MY LOVE theolegranni
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 15:14:55 GMT -5
Thank you Ram,for your insight.... While I fully believe in spiritual abuse, whether it is premeditated, or merely as a result of "those folks environment". I have come to realize that spiritual abuse in my background existed, it was not premeditated... My grandparents, and parents, had no realization of premeditation, they were only doing what was expected of them, by the workers. Spare the rod, spoil the child, was rampant in my childhood. They were "doing" what had been demanded them," by the workers. Those poor folks were ignorant, they had NO ability whatsoever to understand "spiritual abuse" THAT term would have been totally foreign to my ancestors... THAT term, spiritual abuse is a new term... AND those of us that have lived thru the "spiritual abuse of the 2x2's" have an understanding what it means, BUT my feeling is that, in the case of my ancestors, they would have had no clue what was meant by that word...AND INDEED, many children felt unloved, isolated, abandoned, and basically SCARED< BUT they as children had no idea what it was all about. AND children in those days, were to be seen and NOT heard... Children had no right whatsoever, in those days to complain or whine about what was happening with them. Children in those days, would not have felt safe in verbalizing their concerns, they KNEW that they would be punished for verbalizing "ANYTHING" to "ANYONE"!!! I remember my parents telling me....... " GO ahead and whine and I will GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO WHINE about" which meant another beating... OR in my case, it was mostly "Go and ahead and cry and I will give you something to cry about" I learned EARLY on, to keep still...... My parents in the 40's-50's-60's, would not have given a rats ### if I was hurt or not, they had been told by the "workers" that they only way to deal with a verbal, or rebellious child was to beat them. PERIOD!!!!!!!!! These people did not have the opportunity for real understanding of any type of abuse, child, sex, spiritual, or any other kind. One more element that existed during my childhood, was the fact that my grandparents fully expected that I would become an obediant, compliant child, and my grandparents didn't give a rat's ### what it would take to keep me in line. AND one set of grandparents were not even 2x2's. Please understand, again, that I had gone to college for 7 years following high school, and had taken a number of college level courses that opened the door for my further understanding what was going on, with my family. Once again I have seen the Lord's hand in my life... ALL MY LOVE theolegranni Thanks again tog. Spiritual abuse is a recently recognised concept and does not feature in any of the categories of child abuse, though it is recognised as a causation factor in some cases. I believe that most people who have been connected with the sect have been victims of spiritual abuse and most professing folks have been perpetrators as well. It is not only a cultural thing in the sect but in practice it is exercised in a copy cat fashion as people try to act "professing." Yes back in them old days, excessive, but not necessarily physically injurious, beatings or smackings were a common place standard in society. I am glad you are seeing many positives and recognising God's hand in things. Your experiences have to a great extent made you what you are and your experiences and opinions can be a great help to many. You provide great hope for survivors.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2013 15:35:04 GMT -5
In many instances CSA is and will be accompanied by CPA, emotional abuse, neglect, etc. In these cases it cannot be separated. Very often it does not occur in isolation of other abuses. I beg to differ. In the fellowship CSA typically strikes families where there is no CPA or any other kinds of abuse. This is why education is so important. I can see that we need to start with you Ram.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 11, 2013 16:14:06 GMT -5
Dms remarked below: Sometimes, they are decent people in spite not because of their spankings.I provided a link earlier in this thread that showed (according to the research conducted)a link between physical chastisement and better development in children. I am merely pointing this out to show that this is not only a highly controversial subject but also highly complex. Bold statements either way tend to show more bias or opinion than a measured and balanced approach to all the studies, data and experience which have produced a close balance with the results, or at least demand a careful approach to the subject. Also keep in mind that the great majority of lay people who are against physical chastisement form their views on their perceptions which are largely cases of actual child physical abuse which is illegal anyway. Sources for your above statistics, please.
Since I am a nurse, I'm not sure that I would be considered a "lay" person.
However, whatever anyone wants to consider my position, my own views basically came from my husband's considerable research from people in the field of corporeal punishment & his work with educators & legislators to ban corporeal punishment in schools.
Before anyone starts commenting on the subject, it would be to their & every-ones benefit (especially children's benefit) to take a look at the research for themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 16:59:19 GMT -5
In many instances CSA is and will be accompanied by CPA, emotional abuse, neglect, etc. In these cases it cannot be separated. Very often it does not occur in isolation of other abuses. I beg to differ. In the fellowship CSA typically strikes families where there is no CPA or any other kinds of abuse. Spiritual abuse? Emotional abuse (is it possible to have CSA without this?) How often is CSA committed that does not involve a physical assault on the child?
This is why education is so important. I can see that we need to start with you Ram. Yes education is important fixit. You need to broaden your mind!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 17:09:17 GMT -5
Dms remarked below: Sometimes, they are decent people in spite not because of their spankings.I provided a link earlier in this thread that showed (according to the research conducted)a link between physical chastisement and better development in children. I am merely pointing this out to show that this is not only a highly controversial subject but also highly complex. Bold statements either way tend to show more bias or opinion than a measured and balanced approach to all the studies, data and experience which have produced a close balance with the results, or at least demand a careful approach to the subject. Also keep in mind that the great majority of lay people who are against physical chastisement form their views on their perceptions which are largely cases of actual child physical abuse which is illegal anyway. Sources for your above statistics, please.
A good source was provided on this very thread. Pay more attention. Also note how many of those who are against child physical chastisement approach the matter from perceptions of excessive abuse. Pay attention. There are very few exceptions. Have you not been following the posts by theolegranni and snow? Classic examples on this very thread! In their cases the perceptions were actual experiences!
Since I am a nurse, I'm not sure that I would be considered a "lay" person.
I would describe you as very highly opinionated and not easily prone to accepting opposing views.
However, whatever anyone wants to consider my position, my own views basically came from my husband's considerable research from people in the field of corporeal punishment & his work with educators & legislators to ban corporeal punishment in schools.
I have no problem with people having opinions one way or another on this issue. I have provided good links supporting both camps. It is a highly controversial issue and the divide is a lot closer than some would have us believe. That's a main reason why I have a cautious approach with those who are keen to swing the pendulum completely in the opposite direction.
Before anyone starts commenting on the subject, it would be to their & every-ones benefit (especially children's benefit) to take a look at the research for themselves.I agree and have done. I would go further and strongly suggest that an impartial, unbiased approach be taken, to look carefully at both sides of the debate and not to simply seek out arguments to support their own opinions. Furthermore, to consider the consequences of one's ultimate views.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2013 18:13:25 GMT -5
I beg to differ. In the fellowship CSA typically strikes families where there is no CPA or any other kinds of abuse. Spiritual abuse? Emotional abuse (is it possible to have CSA without this?) How often is CSA committed that does not involve a physical assault on the child?
This is why education is so important. I can see that we need to start with you Ram. Yes education is important fixit. You need to broaden your mind!
Ram, thanks for driving home two important points about CSA: 1. Its a unique form of child abuse. 2. There's still a lot of ignorance around CSA, and CSA-education is vitally important.
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Post by Gene on Aug 11, 2013 19:30:28 GMT -5
Ever play 'Dodge Ball?'
The gym of which I am a member has a sign posted which reads "Just like gym class, without the dodge balls hitting your face."
Do they still do that in gym class? Why would schools instill such violence in children?
(For those who may be unfamiliar with it, it's a game in physical education class in primary school in which the teacher splits the class into two teams. The two teams face off against each other in a prescribed area, and fire rubber balls at individuals on the opposing team. Last man standing 'wins.')
Maybe they were simply preparing young Americans for the wars into which they would inevitably be sent for the purpose of securing cheap oil for fellow Americans.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 11, 2013 20:01:32 GMT -5
Sources for your above statistics, please.
A good source was provided on this very thread. Pay more attention. Also note how many of those who are against child physical chastisement approach the matter from perceptions of excessive abuse. Pay more attentionThere are very few exceptions. Have you not been following the posts by theolegranni and snow? Classic examples on this very thread! In their cases the perceptions were actual experiences!
Since I am a nurse, I'm not sure that I would be considered a "lay" person.
I would describe you as very highly opinionated and not easily prone to accepting opposing views.
However, whatever anyone wants to consider my position, my own views basically came from my husband's considerable research from people in the field of corporeal punishment & his work with educators & legislators to ban corporeal punishment in schools.
I have no problem with people having opinions one way or another on this issue. I have provided good links supporting both camps. It is a highly controversial issue and the divide is a lot closer than some would have us believe. That's a main reason why I have a cautious approach with those who are keen to swing the pendulum completely in the opposite direction.
Before anyone starts commenting on the subject, it would be to their & every-ones benefit (especially children's benefit) to take a look at the research for themselves.I agree and have done. I would go further and strongly suggest that an impartial, unbiased approach be taken, to look carefully at both sides of the debate and not to simply seek out arguments to support their own opinions. Furthermore, to consider the consequences of one's ultimate views. THESE ARE TYPICAL OF YOUR POSTS AIMED AT ME.
"Pay more attention"
"Pay more attention"
"I would describe you as very highly opinionated and not easily prone to accepting opposing views."
IT IS PRECISELY BECAUSE OF YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS ME ECHOED BY YOUR POST HERE THAT I DON'T ADDRESS ANY OF YOUR POSTS ANY LONGER.
I WOULDN'T HAVE ADDRESSED YOUR POST THIS TIME HAD IT NOT BEEN DIRECTED AT ME PERSONALLY.
I WON'T BOTHER TO DO SO IN THE FUTURE.
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Post by Greg on Aug 11, 2013 20:20:04 GMT -5
Ever play 'Dodge Ball?' The gym of which I am a member has a sign posted which reads "Just like gym class, without the dodge balls hitting your face." Do they still do that in gym class? Why would schools instill such violence in children? (For those who may be unfamiliar with it, it's a game in physical education class in primary school in which the teacher splits the class into two teams. The two teams face off against each other in a prescribed area, and fire rubber balls at individuals on the opposing team. Last man standing 'wins.') Maybe they were simply preparing young Americans for the wars into which they would inevitably be sent for the purpose of securing cheap oil for fellow Americans. Played 'battle ball' in junior high. The balls were about 6" in diameter. When one team had two guys left the teacher would yell "attack." Then anyone could go anywhere. Always thought the teacher was a bit of a sadist, but he could not stand the site of blood. Still, if he got hit with a ball he would have the perp stand face against a wall and pick six guys to throw one ball each at him from the nearest free-throw line.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2013 20:28:14 GMT -5
Maybe they were simply preparing young Americans for the wars into which they would inevitably be sent for the purpose of securing cheap oil for fellow Americans. Do you think it would be better to withdraw to Fortress America, like what happened between the two World Wars and led to the Pearl Harbor attacks and 418,500 American war dead? I wonder what the world will look like when Pax Americana becomes Pax China?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 11, 2013 20:41:16 GMT -5
Maybe they were simply preparing young Americans for the wars into which they would inevitably be sent for the purpose of securing cheap oil for fellow Americans. Do you think it would be better to withdraw to Fortress America, like what happened between the two World Wars and led to the Pearl Harbor attacks and 418,500 American war dead? I wonder what the world will look like when Pax Americana becomes Pax China? Do you have a solution to keep the youngest & best of our young people from becoming the cannon fodder for the mistakes of the rulers of the older generations?
418,500 American war dead is an extremely terrible sacrifice to pay.
It smacks of an ancient blood sacrifice to the gods of war.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2013 21:23:05 GMT -5
Do you think it would be better to withdraw to Fortress America, like what happened between the two World Wars and led to the Pearl Harbor attacks and 418,500 American war dead? I wonder what the world will look like when Pax Americana becomes Pax China? Do you have a solution to keep the youngest & best of our young people from becoming the cannon fodder for the mistakes of the rulers of the older generations?
418,500 American war dead is an extremely terrible sacrifice to pay.
It smacks of an ancient blood sacrifice to the gods of war.
The only solution I'm seeing just now is to reform the bad guys where possible, and if that fails take them out before they attack us. Anyone got a better idea? Most Americans are probably not willing to dress all the women in burqas, stone all gays and adulterers, and pray towards Mecca five times a day.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 11, 2013 22:11:17 GMT -5
Do you have a solution to keep the youngest & best of our young people from becoming the cannon fodder for the mistakes of the rulers of the older generations?
418,500 American war dead is an extremely terrible sacrifice to pay.
It smacks of an ancient blood sacrifice to the gods of war.
The only solution I'm seeing just now is to reform the bad guys where possible, and if that fails take them out before they attack us.Anyone got a better idea? Most Americans are probably not willing to dress all the women in burqas, stone all gays and adulterers, and pray towards Mecca five times a day. People seemed to have used that solution for a long time & so far it doesn't seem to have worked too well. When the machine gun was invented some people thought that would be the end of war because it results were so horrific. It didn't stop war. WWI was supposed to be the "war to end all wars." "World War I was a war without parallel - all previous wars were eclipsed by its scale of destruction. It was a struggle between Europe's great powers, which were grouped into two hostile alliances. The number of men mobilised by both sides: the central powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria and Turkey), and the allied powers (Britain and Empire, France, Belgium, Russia, Italy, USA), totalled over 65 million. When the fighting was finally over, no-one could tell exactly how many had been killed but historians estimate that up to 10 million men lost their lives on the battlefield - and another 20 million were wounded. As well as all the great powers of Europe being involved, the war also extended into Asia and Africa. Troops throughout the Commonwealth rallied to support Britain.Over three million came from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India. Sea battles took place in the South Atlantic and the Pacific. The USA also intervened in European affairs for the first time, with more than 100,000 American troops killed helping to guarantee an allied victory. wiki
As we well know, WWI didn't end all wars.
I'm simply saying that what we have done in the past doesn't seemed to have worked very well.
Somehow, I believe we have to have an alternate way of thinking on the subject.
I don't know the answer, but there are minds that seem to be able to make bigger & more deadly weapons in which to kill off one another, it seems that there could be some of intellegence put to use in how to change the way we react.
To just say that we don't want to dress all the women in burqas, stone all gays and adulterers, and pray towards Mecca five times a day, although certainly true, doesn't seem to me to be the answer.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2013 22:32:35 GMT -5
It could be argued that "bigger and more deadly weapons" is in fact the answer as long as they're in the hands of rational people.
If you think you'll go to a harem of 72 virgins in paradise you might just use your nukes to wipe an enemy nation off the map.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 11, 2013 22:57:45 GMT -5
It could be argued that "bigger and more deadly weapons" is in fact the answer as long as they're in the hands of rational people.If you think you'll go to a harem of 72 virgins in paradise you might just use your nukes to wipe an enemy nation off the map. You're right, if they are in the hands of rational people.
But sometimes I wonder who is rational & who just carries the biggest stick!
Somehow, I don't think that just because we are Americans that we are always the most rational of people.
Too much of past history doesn't look to that always being the case.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2013 23:23:48 GMT -5
Who are the most rational people?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 12, 2013 0:59:32 GMT -5
Who are the most rational people? Good question!
You got any candidates?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 1:58:20 GMT -5
Ram, thanks for driving home two important points about CSA: 1. Its a unique form of child abuse. Don't take your foot of the gas there fixit. You will find unique forms and variations of abuse within the recognised categories of abuse.
2. There's still a lot of ignorance around CSA, and CSA-education is vitally important. Don't take your foot of the gas there either fixit. There's still a lot of ignorance around all categories of abuse, and child abuse education is vitally important.I will say this, you are adopting a unique form of specialising!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 2:05:16 GMT -5
THESE ARE TYPICAL OF YOUR POSTS AIMED AT ME.
"Pay more attention"
"Pay more attention"
"I would describe you as very highly opinionated and not easily prone to accepting opposing views."
IT IS PRECISELY BECAUSE OF YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS ME ECHOED BY YOUR POST HERE THAT I DON'T ADDRESS ANY OF YOUR POSTS ANY LONGER.
I WOULDN'T HAVE ADDRESSED YOUR POST THIS TIME HAD IT NOT BEEN DIRECTED AT ME PERSONALLY.
I WON'T BOTHER TO DO SO IN THE FUTURE.
I have no doubt that you regard "pay more attention" and describing you as a very highly opinionated person and not easily prone to accepting opposing views, as forms of serious abuse, rather than accurate observations of your attitude? Keep in mind that you were asking questions that were already answered. The directness of your questioning justified a similar direct response. C'est la vie! You should have performed the service of providing the context of the "pay attention" remarks, viz: A good source was provided on this very thread. Pay more attention. Also note how many of those who are against child physical chastisement approach the matter from perceptions of excessive abuse. Pay more attentionThere are very few exceptions. Have you not been following the posts by theolegranni and snow? Classic examples on this very thread! In their cases the perceptions were actual experiences!
You won't answer my parting question, simply because you are unable to. Please justify your use of the phrase "typical of your posts aimed at me?" Or, am I being abused by false allegations? However, I do thank you for not accusing me of "lying" on this occasion, something you have done in the past and failed to apologise for when proved wrong. On at least two occasions I believe. Also, when you accused another poster recently of allegedly doing similar to you, you went after him/her like a terrier with a rag doll. Either rightly or wrongly, I let the matter pass.
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