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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 2:15:23 GMT -5
Ever play 'Dodge Ball?' The gym of which I am a member has a sign posted which reads "Just like gym class, without the dodge balls hitting your face." Do they still do that in gym class? Why would schools instill such violence in children? (For those who may be unfamiliar with it, it's a game in physical education class in primary school in which the teacher splits the class into two teams. The two teams face off against each other in a prescribed area, and fire rubber balls at individuals on the opposing team. Last man standing 'wins.') Maybe they were simply preparing young Americans for the wars into which they would inevitably be sent for the purpose of securing cheap oil for fellow Americans. What about contact sports like football (soccer), rugby, hockey and American football, all part of schools' PE curriculum? Maybe "pass the parcel" should be introduced for PE as a way to get kids to expend some physical energy? No, wait! We can't have kids chucking a parcel at one another. Someone might get hurt?
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Post by snow on Aug 12, 2013 10:14:19 GMT -5
Who are the most rational people? Well Canadians of course!! lol...
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Post by snow on Aug 12, 2013 10:18:36 GMT -5
Ever play 'Dodge Ball?' The gym of which I am a member has a sign posted which reads "Just like gym class, without the dodge balls hitting your face." Do they still do that in gym class? Why would schools instill such violence in children? (For those who may be unfamiliar with it, it's a game in physical education class in primary school in which the teacher splits the class into two teams. The two teams face off against each other in a prescribed area, and fire rubber balls at individuals on the opposing team. Last man standing 'wins.') Maybe they were simply preparing young Americans for the wars into which they would inevitably be sent for the purpose of securing cheap oil for fellow Americans. What about contact sports like football (soccer), rugby, hockey and American football, all part of schools' PE curriculum? Maybe "pass the parcel" should be introduced for PE as a way to get kids to expend some physical energy? No, wait! We can't have kids chucking a parcel at one another. Someone might get hurt? Track and field seemed to tire me out. Maybe just activities like that would be better. We're still satisfying our need to compete, but not knocking each other around to do it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 11:02:43 GMT -5
I was once interested in taking up stamp collecting, but that sounded too painful!
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Post by snow on Aug 12, 2013 14:37:32 GMT -5
I was once interested in taking up stamp collecting, but that sounded too painful! Why?
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Post by matisse on Aug 12, 2013 14:55:51 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 16:17:29 GMT -5
I was once interested in taking up stamp collecting, but that sounded too painful! Why? Think about it Snow. Stamp Collecting? It was the collecting of "stamps!" Hint, hint. Being stamped on! Okay......I will crawl back into my shell!
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Post by quizzer on Aug 12, 2013 16:22:43 GMT -5
I was once interested in taking up stamp collecting, but that sounded too painful! Why? You're having to categorize the stamps by country, county, date, whatever...having to squint to be sure you have the right stamp...having to c.a.r.e.f.u.l.l.y pick up tiny pieces of paper without damaging them... It's brutal - I'm telling ya!
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Post by snow on Aug 12, 2013 16:57:19 GMT -5
Think about it Snow. Stamp Collecting? It was the collecting of "stamps!" Hint, hint. Being stamped on! Okay......I will crawl back into my shell! Oh my!! Am I slow today! All I could think of was it would be a painful experience to collect stamps, but more along the lines of boring. So I thought I'd better ask and see what your reason was.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 18:17:57 GMT -5
Think about it Snow. Stamp Collecting? It was the collecting of "stamps!" Hint, hint. Being stamped on! Okay......I will crawl back into my shell! Oh my!! Am I slow today! All I could think of was it would be a painful experience to collect stamps, but more along the lines of boring. So I thought I'd better ask and see what your reason was. You know what they say, Snow? "Philately will get you no where!"
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Post by Gene on Aug 12, 2013 18:23:48 GMT -5
Oh my!! Am I slow today! All I could think of was it would be a painful experience to collect stamps, but more along the lines of boring. So I thought I'd better ask and see what your reason was. You know what they say, Snow? "Philately will get you no where!" Ram! This is a family board! Such language should be stamped out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 2:40:25 GMT -5
You know what they say, Snow? "Philately will get you no where!" Ram! This is a family board! Such language should be stamped out. I agree Gene. Over here they stamped out "tongues" a few years ago. It was a sticky business. Health and safety and all that. We now have self adhesive stamps.
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Post by Gene on Aug 13, 2013 5:14:26 GMT -5
Ram! This is a family board! Such language should be stamped out. I agree Gene. Over here they stamped out "tongues" a few years ago. It was a sticky business. Health and safety and all that. We now have self adhesive stamps. It was a vegetarian conspiracy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 5:42:45 GMT -5
I agree Gene. Over here they stamped out "tongues" a few years ago. It was a sticky business. Health and safety and all that. We now have self adhesive stamps. It was a vegetarian conspiracy. This is true. They certainly gummed up the works. Mind you, have you ever tried to speak with a stamp stuck to your tongue? That's where all the gibberish comes from! Not only that. It made "posting" difficult!
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Post by Gene on Aug 13, 2013 17:50:49 GMT -5
It was a vegetarian conspiracy. This is true. They certainly gummed up the works. Mind you, have you ever tried to speak with a stamp stuck to your tongue? That's where all the gibberish comes from! Not only that. It made "posting" difficult! Frankly speaking, it's not only gummed up: stamps as we've known them have been cancelled.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 17:58:53 GMT -5
This is true. They certainly gummed up the works. Mind you, have you ever tried to speak with a stamp stuck to your tongue? That's where all the gibberish comes from! Not only that. It made "posting" difficult! Frankly speaking, it's not only gummed up: stamps as we've known them have been cancelled. That was a first class delivery Gene. Your postal rates on TMB give us all an uplift. No doubt from what I am saying, you can tell I have a stamp stuck on the end of my tongue ?
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Post by Gene on Aug 13, 2013 18:09:27 GMT -5
Frankly speaking, it's not only gummed up: stamps as we've known them have been cancelled. That was a first class delivery Gene. Your postal rates on TMB give us all an uplift. No doubt from what I am saying, you can tell I have a stamp stuck on the end of my tongue ? Uplift? Speaking in tongues? Correo Aereo? Par Avion?
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Post by rational on Aug 13, 2013 20:34:51 GMT -5
Hey Ramsey, if you want me to get involved with CPA you'll have to play nicely with me. Here's how it will be: Zero tolerance of sex with children and Zero tolerance of hitting children. If you want to make exceptions I won't be able to play in the same sandbox with you. And emotional and psychological abuse?
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Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2013 21:08:18 GMT -5
Hey Ramsey, if you want me to get involved with CPA you'll have to play nicely with me. Here's how it will be: Zero tolerance of sex with children and Zero tolerance of hitting children. If you want to make exceptions I won't be able to play in the same sandbox with you. And emotional and psychological abuse? Can you define what zero tolerance of emotional and psychological abuse would mean in practical terms?
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Post by rational on Aug 13, 2013 22:35:48 GMT -5
And emotional and psychological abuse? Can you define what zero tolerance of emotional and psychological abuse would mean in practical terms? I know you are hung up with specific types of abuse but the bottom line is always the same - do not do things to children that harms them.
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Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2013 23:07:12 GMT -5
Can you define what zero tolerance of emotional and psychological abuse would mean in practical terms? I know you are hung up with specific types of abuse but the bottom line is always the same - do not do things to children that harms them. I agree - no one should do things to children that harms them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 3:05:04 GMT -5
I know you are hung up with specific types of abuse but the bottom line is always the same - do not do things to children that harms them. I agree - no one should do things to children that harms them. Agreement at last! Of course the next thing on the list is, "what harms children?"
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Post by fixit on Aug 14, 2013 4:55:10 GMT -5
I agree - no one should do things to children that harms them. Agreement at last! Of course the next thing on the list is, "what harms children?" And how do we get it through to people that having sex with children harms them more than broken bones, cuts and bruises?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 6:40:13 GMT -5
Agreement at last! Of course the next thing on the list is, "what harms children?" And how do we get it through to people that having sex with children harms them more than broken bones, cuts and bruises? Personally I hope you NEVER achieve that! For a start BOTH cause psychological and emotional damage to children that can last a lifetime. Secondly, each case needs to be considered on its own merits, not by the type of generalised statement given, or by uniformed opinion. Thirdly, the message to get across is that every form of abuse is wrong. Again there is nothing wrong with specialisation in whatever abuse you want to, but don't fall into opinionated traps. Use the Biblical example of ALL sin is wrong as your guide. It is all deplorable. Consider matters on and individual case by case basis. Narrowmindedness solves little. Remember, many cases of CSA do not actually involve sexual intercourse itself. There's CSA and then there's CSA and then there's CSA and then there's..... Of course the same applies to every other form of child abuse and indeed every other form of abuse other than these.
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2013 11:00:39 GMT -5
Agreement at last! Of course the next thing on the list is, "what harms children?" And how do we get it through to people that having sex with children harms them more than broken bones, cuts and bruises? The psychological and emotional harm from both is what really harms children. To say that one instance of CSA is more damaging for a child then 17 years of physical abuse might not be entirely accurate. The damage to the psyche of a child is pretty intense from that too. I don't really see a need to look at one as more or less damaging then the other. Children don't differentiate types of pain like adults do when it comes to emotional. They just know it hurts and it's adults that put more emphasis on other things imo.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 12:13:42 GMT -5
And how do we get it through to people that having sex with children harms them more than broken bones, cuts and bruises? The psychological and emotional harm from both is what really harms children. To say that one instance of CSA is more damaging for a child then 17 years of physical abuse might not be entirely accurate. The damage to the psyche of a child is pretty intense from that too. I don't really see a need to look at one as more or less damaging then the other. Children don't differentiate types of pain like adults do when it comes to emotional. They just know it hurts and it's adults that put more emphasis on other things imo. And the experience doesn't have to be in respect of the child's person itself. A child witnessing his or her mother being verbally or physically abused by the father or partner can cause emotional abuse to the child. And it doesn't stop there. A child (eg Theolegranni) witnessing the Father cruelly treating an animal (in this case a cow) can be so emotionally distraught that they wish the Father would start hitting them instead. This often happens in domestic abuse cases. Children from a young age are very capable of loving parents more than themselves and some would substitute themselves on the altar of abuse in order to spare the parent, if they could do so.
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2013 23:25:06 GMT -5
And how do we get it through to people that having sex with children harms them more than broken bones, cuts and bruises? The psychological and emotional harm from both is what really harms children. To say that one instance of CSA is more damaging for a child then 17 years of physical abuse might not be entirely accurate. The damage to the psyche of a child is pretty intense from that too. I don't really see a need to look at one as more or less damaging then the other. Children don't differentiate types of pain like adults do when it comes to emotional. They just know it hurts and it's adults that put more emphasis on other things imo. There are a wide range of activities that are classified as sexual abuse just as their are a wide range of things that are classified as physical abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2013 0:55:43 GMT -5
Roscoe posted on the "Teen Suicide" thread. I thought I'd copy it over here as it has some pertinence to this thread. I have emboldened the most appropriate part. There are also good (or is it bad?) indications of spiritual abuse as well in the post!
Faune,
The suicide of the two children is an incredibly sad story and certainly startled everyone at the time in Australia - it was well reported at the time. I can understand a child of 14 years old not wanting to go to convention at the time - I don't know the personal circumstances of the family but for many 14/15 year old kids it wasn't necessarily a pleasant experience. If a kid didn't exactly conform with the expected standards then they would quite likely have been spoken to by a worker and made to feel less than adequate. I can well remember being taken aside at age 11 and spoken to quite harshly by an elder male worker about my hair (which was short anyway but apparently not short enough for the male workers). I didn't have a problem with going to convention but I was definitely scared of the workers during my growing up years. I also know of kids who were made to go to Convention (and didn't really want to) but it became apparent later that they were being physically and sexually abused by family members.
As I stated I have no knowledge of the individual circumstances of these children but I expect that there were deeper issues that they were struggling with which resulted in them not wanting to attend convention.
In relation to Evan Jones' comments in the affidavit there are a couple of comments to make:
- Evan Jones was not a wilting violet - he had a strong personality, was generally regarded as an engaging preacher and an intelligent man. He could be rather quirky at times. I recall one gospel meeting in Sydney in the 1990's when he was preaching and the microphone was not pointing exactly in the right place to pick up his voice clearly. Clyde McKay (overseer in NSW) got up to discretely move the microphone - Evan Jones simply pushed him out of the way - it was an embarrassing moment and you had to feel sorry for Clyde. - Evan's response on "no restrictions" is technically correct in terms of written documents....but of course it was far from the truth in terms of the workers action and words. Pop or modern music was definitely not acceptable, nor TV. As for food or sport I don't remember too many restriction although golf, water and snow skiing were frowned upon. No-one really danced although I understand that at some of our parent's professing weddings dancing was part of the celebration. - Evan's response on financial arrangements was a bit surprising, but accurate and truthful. Similar trust account arrangements were in place in NSW and I imagine other Australian states. I have often wondered what his motivation was for saying that the organisation was well off. Given the media coverage at the time I believe that his motivation was to demonstrate that the group was not a radical cult but was well structured, well supported and funded, had processes in place, was global in nature etc etc. I believe Evan was a pretty smart operator with a fair amount of "business" acumen so I am not really surprised by his response which is well crafted....even though some of it is questionable from our viewpoint.
Hope this information gives a little more background....
Cheers, Ross
I would appreciate it very much if anyone sees similar references to child physical abuse (or even neglect and emotional abuse)popping up on other threads if they could either alert myself to them, or copy the post over to this thread and highlight the appropriate part. This will help with collating pertinent examples of child abuse. CSA receives its own attention, but where there are examples of it being accompanied with physical abuse, neglect, emotional or spiritual abuse, these would also be of value. In fact, any form of child abuse accompanied by domestic abuse or animal cruelty would also be of interest.
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