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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 23:17:20 GMT -5
I am glad to hear that spanking, taking kids out of the meeting etc. is very rare now. Eases my mind because it was a very hard time for me. I guess from what I am reading my discipline was about the norm for the time? It was the norm to get taken out of meeting and spanked. However, parents would have varied in tolerance and frequency so whether the severity of your experience was average or extreme would require more information. I am fairly sure that my experience was at the lower end, and the last spanking I got was at 6 years of age. I learned after that never to get caught again and if caught always claim innocence somehow. That is one of the most damaging parts of physical violence against children, it destroys their integrity as they try to survive the beatings. I had to reclaim the parts of my integrity lost later in life......and I was living under a lower than average punitive regime at home growing up. I know kids who have totally lost all integrity, and it is all about survival in a punitive world. One thing to remember about our parents is that it was conventional wisdom to do it, and because it was conventional wisdom, they would have come under social pressure and ridicule if they didn't do it. None of them escaped that. Our generation had more freedom of choice on how we raised our kids, and our kids even more. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 1, 2013 9:02:23 GMT -5
If a child is inconsolable or does not quieten with normal soft ways of changing their minds about the way they're acting...I think removing them from the mtgs. is the best way to take care of the situation before others within the mtgs. get upset at the parents' lack of ability to quieten their children. I am not saying spanking should continue but for the very young child, removing them out of the mtg. is the best thing for often the little tykes are fretful due to teething or other ailments or just having a bad day....little tykes are not developed enough to take on the advisement from a parent to quieten down, to get busy with something else etc. I've seen young parents spend the entire mtg. entertaining their little ones and the mtg. was of no benefit for that parent and likely that parent was so exhausted by the end of the mtg. that the little tyke picked up on that......
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 9:39:24 GMT -5
I suspect the F&W's are, and likely always have been, a little more ready to physically discipline than the general public. Not by much, but that's my observation. But yes, you can relax, it is was easier being a kid in meeting than it ever was 'back in the day.' I was given coloring books and crayons to play with at convention and little books to read at gospel meeting--that was absolutely cutting edge for the F&Ws back in the late 50's. I had it easy! Oh lucky girl!! I'm glad your parents were so good to you. I think my mother would have been, but she had to do what Dad said so things were the way they were. I had a hard time forgiving my father for the physical stuff and the wearing down of my self esteem. I am not sure I am completely there because I still feel the hurt sometimes when I think about it. But I have certainly come a long way. My husband's folks were tough on him with the discipline, and although I don't know if this is the reason why, he's insecure and assumes people don't like him. He doesn't have a healthy self-esteem, he puts others down to make himself feel better, but that doesn't fix it...and so far, he hasn't been able to change. I'm glad you've come a distance with respect to self-esteem; it's not easy. I picked the right parents! |
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2013 11:29:09 GMT -5
I am glad to hear that spanking, taking kids out of the meeting etc. is very rare now. Eases my mind because it was a very hard time for me. I guess from what I am reading my discipline was about the norm for the time? It was the norm to get taken out of meeting and spanked. However, parents would have varied in tolerance and frequency so whether the severity of your experience was average or extreme would require more information. I am fairly sure that my experience was at the lower end, and the last spanking I got was at 6 years of age. I learned after that never to get caught again and if caught always claim innocence somehow. That is one of the most damaging parts of physical violence against children, it destroys their integrity as they try to survive the beatings. I had to reclaim the parts of my integrity lost later in life......and I was living under a lower than average punitive regime at home growing up. I know kids who have totally lost all integrity, and it is all about survival in a punitive world. One thing to remember about our parents is that it was conventional wisdom to do it, and because it was conventional wisdom, they would have come under social pressure and ridicule if they didn't do it. None of them escaped that. Our generation had more freedom of choice on how we raised our kids, and our kids even more. Yes, I know about that. Avoiding spankings became a priority. I also know it was partially peer pressure though there were those who were strong enough to 'buck the trend'. Hberry's parents seem to be one of those. I always thought it interesting when a parent would hit their children when their child hit someone else and then said, we do not hit! What a confusing contradiction that is for a young mind!! |
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2013 11:31:16 GMT -5
If a child is inconsolable or does not quieten with normal soft ways of changing their minds about the way they're acting...I think removing them from the mtgs. is the best way to take care of the situation before others within the mtgs. get upset at the parents' lack of ability to quieten their children. I am not saying spanking should continue but for the very young child, removing them out of the mtg. is the best thing for often the little tykes are fretful due to teething or other ailments or just having a bad day....little tykes are not developed enough to take on the advisement from a parent to quieten down, to get busy with something else etc. I've seen young parents spend the entire mtg. entertaining their little ones and the mtg. was of no benefit for that parent and likely that parent was so exhausted by the end of the mtg. that the little tyke picked up on that...... I totally agree sharingtheriches. Taking a child out when disruptive is a wise decision. There are so many reasons why the child may be noisy but not reasons that justify a spanking. |
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2013 11:34:15 GMT -5
Oh lucky girl!! I'm glad your parents were so good to you. I think my mother would have been, but she had to do what Dad said so things were the way they were. I had a hard time forgiving my father for the physical stuff and the wearing down of my self esteem. I am not sure I am completely there because I still feel the hurt sometimes when I think about it. But I have certainly come a long way. My husband's folks were tough on him with the discipline, and although I don't know if this is the reason why, he's insecure and assumes people don't like him. He doesn't have a healthy self-esteem, he puts others down to make himself feel better, but that doesn't fix it...and so far, he hasn't been able to change. I'm glad you've come a distance with respect to self-esteem; it's not easy. I picked the right parents! Yes you did pick the right parents!! I'm glad you can understand the reason for your husband's struggle with self esteem. He's lucky to have someone like you to love him and support him. It truly is a journey. It took many years for me to see that I am not a 'bad' person. That I had worth. I still have days when I am totally down on myself, especially if I've made a mistake. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 2, 2013 11:43:42 GMT -5
R. & W. Campbell’s Letter
October 1, 1996Dear Elders, W. and I are writing to you because we are concerned and distressed about the way several issues are being handled by the Workers. We have included addresses of each one to whom we are sending this letter, and if you feel these issues are serious enough to be addressed you could network with one another. The three events that concern us are: • How Peter Gordon's pedophilia has been dealt with by the Workers; • Rumors circulating about Debi Gordon, Peter's adopted daughter; • Disturbing interactions at an August meeting concerning Peter Gordon which John Sterling and Tom Hinkle attended. Peter Gordon's PedophiliaYou may be aware that in the past year Peter Gordon, a Worker and later an Elder in the Truth, has admitted to molesting 2 of his adopted children and 2 other young girls, who are in the church, and a possible fifth victim, (not in the church), who chose suicide. Unfortunately, the original molestations fall outside the statute of limitations on all but two of the girls (the statute can only be used if it is proved that sexual abuse happened within the past seven years), and to date those two families have chosen not to prosecute Peter. These two girls were molested by Peter when they innocently accepted invitations to his home after Sunday morning meetings. Peter Gordon is an admitted pedophile. If he had been convicted by law and then released from prison, he would be barred for life from being within 100 yards of children, and his neighbors would be notified that a child molester was living in the area. This month the State of California is looking at a law where pedophiles may voluntarily undergo chemical castration if they have been found guilty of sexual molestation once; if they have been found guilty twice they are required to undergo chemical or physical castration. That is how serious this behavior is viewed by the legal system of this country. Ironically, today this man has been given the permission and encouraged to attend meetings and conventions --with the Workers' blessings--where he could have casual contact with young girls who may possibly end up becoming his future victims. This is of grave concern to us; instead of being a safe place for young girls to grow up and socialize, the church group is protecting a known pedophile. Our concern is not only for this case, should there be discrepancies with details, but for future cases, that they be dealt with in a safe manner. You may be wondering if perhaps we are over-reacting. The fact is, repeat acts of pedophilia are an ongoing problem for men even after intensive individual and group therapy; statistics indicate that a scant 2% actually have a chance of recovery. After Debi blew the whistle on his sexual deviancy, Peter reluctantly underwent 6 months of individual counseling and eventually wrote several letters to Debi first demanding forgiveness and finally asking forgiveness. It is almost impossible for a perpetrator to recover without the entire family undergoing therapy. In this case, so far only Peter has seen a counselor. He does not see any need to make further amends, and wonders why Debi doesn't remember "all the good times we had instead of dwelling on the problems." A victim needs more than a few months to make up for 9 years of almost daily sexual abuse. While the incest was occurring, everyone in the family participated to some degree in keeping it a secret. A confusing double standard permeated Debi's home life--on one hand she was a victim of Peter's repeated molestation, and on the other, she watched as Friends and Workers revered him as an Elder, a role model for others in the church "with an open home in the truest sense." Prior to the age of 5 Debi has flash memories of being fondled and since the age of 5, Debi can vividly remember Peter's frequent visits to her room where he forced her to perform sexual acts until the age of 11, at which time he demanded sexual intercourse until the age of 14. Peter often locked himself in her sister’s bedroom until 11 p.m. while his wife waited in their bedroom. During all these years, Peter never wavered in partaking of the bread and wine and in prayer and testimony. Consider the confusion and anger that this day-by-day onslaught would have on a young woman's body and spirit. When Debi was 12 years old, workers were finally made aware of what was happening in the Gordon home. The upshot was that the Workers were brought into the field who knew about the abuse and Peter was reprimanded. Unfortunately, he continued to molest Debi--in fact, it began the very next day, with a threat to her safety if she didn't silently comply to his wishes. Peter often admitted to remorse after raping his daughter and asked her forgiveness...only to seek her out again and again when the sexual urge returned, a common pattern of sex offenders. The Sister Workers who were sent to the field to monitor the situation were uneducated in the behavior of pedophiles and never once asked Debi what was going on. The situation continued with no protection from the Workers or Friends until Debi turned 14, when she finally found the courage to refuse to be touched by this man in any way. Peter stopped visiting Debi, but continued molesting her sister for some time; again, a common pattern of perpetrators. Debi's BehaviorIt is not uncommon for victims who have been molested to this degree to commit suicide. If they opt not to deal with these deadly memories by death they often become totally dysfunctional adults and often receive the label, "promiscuous." Once Debi found her voice, however, she poured her anger into warning others of her father's pedophila, asked that extensive counseling and an apology be forthcoming from her father, and asked that the Workers take a clear stand and not condone a child molester. Debi took action and hung posters at ***convention warning people that her father usually attends this convention and is a child molester. She also shared information with the Friends about her life and the injustice she and other young girls suffered at the hands of her father. While Debi may be flailing and thrashing around a good deal, she is justifiably filled with rage for the hypocrisy and lies she has known in her family and in the church. What does Debi really want? She wants her father put in a position where he can never molest again. This has been her cry from the beginning and it is her cry today. Thanks to Debi's incensed and relentless cry, Peter Gordon has now been removed from his eldership by the Workers and no longer has meeting in his home, although he has been given Worker blessing to take part fully in meetings. For some time W. and I met with Debi on Wednesday nights. Despite the fact that she was unable to take part in meetings since her marriage to a divorced man, she regularly attended with her two children, at great struggle. Karen Oakes told Debi several times that she had no chance of salvation as long as she remained married to her husband, so Debi took the advice to heart and, conscientiously wanting to do right by the Truth, divorced him. At 1995 *** convention, after the divorce was final, Debi gave her testimony for the first time since her marriage/divorce, in her testimony she said she was glad to finally be free to have a place in the professing community. That afternoon, Joyce Szakacs came to Debi and said, "Don't you think you should wait to take part until you are told you can? I really think it would be better if you waited a year." Debi stood there stunned as Joyce walked off to the dining area without giving Debi a chance to reply. Debi had hoped finally to be supported and included in the group, and this was the response. Although he refuses to talk with her directly, Harold Bennett and Joyce Szakacs have told lies that defame and discredit Debi. A few weeks ago at ***, Harold called a meeting with John Sterling, Tom Hinkle, D.O. and J & E. where he said Debi had written letters to two young brother Workers propositioning them to have sex with her. The attached letter is a copy of one of the letters Harold sent *** to substantiate his statement. As you can see in this case, Harold's claim about Debi is patently untrue; his remarks might even be considered slanderous in a court of law. Regarding the second letter which has been conveniently destroyed, we can feel confident that it falls in the same category as the first. At ***, prior to the sex letter accusation, the O’s were approached by Joyce Szakacs. She warned them to quit talking about this issue, and at that time Joyce said "Why, Debi is no more than a prostitute!" All or these statements can be substantiated. W. and I are upset that Workers in this church that we have loved and been a part of for 40 years are behaving in this manner. We are sorry that Debi has been treated in such a shameful and demeaning way when what she really needs is unconditional love, and help and support for the ordeal she has endured throughout her childhood. Debi has lived under a tremendous deception all of her life, and the time has come for honest communication among ourselves, not additional lies and abandonment. August Meeting with the Workers In August 1996, Debi requested a meeting with Harold Bennett and other Workers and Friends who were interested in discussing how to take protective measures so other young girls would not become victims of Peter Gordon. Debi had contacted Harold Bennett and specifically requested that he attend because of his position of authority among the church group in Oregon. Instead, John Sterling and Tom Hinkle came, and early in the meeting indicated that they had "full authority" from Harold concerning the matters being discussed. Later, John and Tom refused to take any action in this matter because, they told the group, they "didn't have the authority" to do so. During the 4-1/2 hour meeting, their concern was mainly on supporting Peter Gordon's continued attendance at meetings (for his own salvation), and not on the lives this man has shattered by his repeated attacks of sexual abuse. The meeting was conducted by a Chester Ehrig, whom Debi had asked to facilitate, since she felt too emotional about the discussion. The main focus of the meeting was to clarify Debi's case, and educate Workers and Friends on how to handle sexual abuse cases in the future so they could be expedited in a simple, direct manner so: • meetings would not become polarized; • wrongdoings would not be covered up; • guilty/innocent issues would be handled by the law rather than by Workers; • openness and clarification would be available to all (i.e., everyone in the field would be • notified about the problem so they could protect their children and provide support; • assistance to both the victim and sex abuser); • and the victims would be given money, if needed, for therapy. We were in this meeting, and W. and I now see that we have a responsibility to take action so the little children among us are safe and protected. With all the awareness there is in our country about incest, judgment, abuse and victimization, we believe it is important that everyone in the church adhere to the highest level of integrity. A few days later, E.O. asked Harold Bennett why he didn't attend the meeting. He told her "Debi called me a liar, so I have refused to have anything to do with her or her case." When the editor of The Cottage Grove Sentinel contacted Harold about Debi's sexual abuse allegations, he said, "That person has been causing us a lot of difficulties and we're not interested in anything connected to her. I wouldn't care to comment on it. She has a problem. We're not interested in any kind of article or any kind of association with her." Please help us stop the judgment, rumors and indifference circulating among the Workers and Friends. Instead let us offer loving support and assistance for those whose lives have been, and are being, changed forever by senseless acts of child abuse. As a group, we need to demand accountability from our Workers and from one another on these kinds of issues. We say our values are as close as possible to Christ's and we proclaim love to be our banner, yet we stand by as others participate in character assassination and slanderous remarks. Why is this behavior deemed acceptable? Would Christ treat His little children like this? In writing this letter W. and I realize that we may be opening ourselves and others mentioned in the letter up to further disparagement and discreditation by Workers in an attempt to justify and explain away years of neglect of this issue and condoning of Peter Gordon's behavior, in particular. However, today we have decided to take this action because we feel this situation is serious enough to warrant the risk of lies and slander directed toward us. Yours in Christ's love, “R. & W. Campbell” Just a side note...chemical castration is really a new name for the preparing of a man seeking to be a transsexual! The female hormones give some men pure hell but for a short time as they will often renege on taking them...the hot flashes are immense. Just ask men who are taking them as an oncological medication for prostate cancer! There perhaps are differen drugs...but the female hormone is the most common one used here in this part of the world. I actually would advise these pedophiles to just go ahead and have a surgical excision of their male gonads....it sounds awful, but once one is healed over the surgery, then the can go on learning a new life......I know many of the 'older' pedophiles do chose ochidectomy instead of the chemical female hormone! |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 2, 2013 11:52:47 GMT -5
To my knowledge, no, because he was NEVER, taken to the authorities. The meeting system can restrict his movements without the authorities. A fairly recent case in NZ resulted in an elder losing his position, eventually losing the meeting out of his house, is not allowed to stay overnight at convention and if I recall, has a minder at convention to monitor him while on the grounds. This is the sort of thing that should be in place for Peter Gordon. In addition, he should not be allowed to attend fellowship meetings where there are minor children. If none of this is happening, then Harold Bennett and Dale Schultz are being negligent in the protection of children. Well! We know that the CA authorities have told Mr. D. Schultz that IF they find that he has hidden another perpetrator or if any of his peers have hidden a perpetrator that he would be facing charges....and I'm supposing that to mean much like Mr. Jerome has faced! So Don't you think someone who knows about the abuse should contact the authorities asap? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 8:11:03 GMT -5
Hi CKirkham it would be good if you could copy your two posts above to the Child Physical Abuse thread which I have bumped up to the top of the board as these posts are very appropriate to the thread. Many thanks.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 10, 2013 13:16:19 GMT -5
just caught up on this. When I was a child, physical abuse was quite common. I was regularly starved until I was too weak to walk, locked in a small dark closet for days at a time, beaten regularly with whatever object my mother could heft, and emotionally, verbally and mentally demeaned constantly. The people who think that you just happily move on from physical abuse have obviously never experienced it--I remember every single day of my life. And there are permanent scars. Funny thing about physical abuse--people don't want to believe it happens in the group. They actually are not nearly as supportive of my story as the people I know who were sexually abused. So when I tell people about my childhood--I often have people argue with me--saying stupid things like--"oh that couldn't have happened". And I suspect it continues to this day (in levels about like in the surrounding communities). I believe I have mentioned before that my professing sister has had TWO babies die under mysterious circumstances in the past ten years (investigators wrote the deaths off as crib death--but were suspicious of her in both cases). The reason people don't care much about this is 1) most professing people don't want to hear anything negative about their group and 2) the exes for the most part want to promote stuff that tarnishes the workers. Since physical abuse is usually within the family and doesn't involve the workers--it doesn't fit anyone's agenda. So it must not occur. (an obvious myth). Believe me, it is also a myth that people just waltz on with their lives after living through a hell like I did. The trauma never goes away, it is in my head 24-7. r Clirkham, I know you've told tiny bits of your abused life and I get sicker everytime I read more of your young life's experience and I can understand fully that most of those things would be very hard to get out of one's head. Not only the hurt but also the lack any expression of approval or love wasn't there to soft pedal the worst part of the treatment.....it's too bad some human who was well aware of how you were abused did not report all of that abuse to the authorities! Course then we don't know how long your enemies would have left you alive! Just know I care and I AM very sorry that this is such a burden to you! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:27:08 GMT -5
just caught up on this. When I was a child, physical abuse was quite common. I was regularly starved until I was too weak to walk, locked in a small dark closet for days at a time, beaten regularly with whatever object my mother could heft, and emotionally, verbally and mentally demeaned constantly. The people who think that you just happily move on from physical abuse have obviously never experienced it--I remember every single day of my life. And there are permanent scars. Funny thing about physical abuse--people don't want to believe it happens in the group. They actually are not nearly as supportive of my story as the people I know who were sexually abused. So when I tell people about my childhood--I often have people argue with me--saying stupid things like--"oh that couldn't have happened". And I suspect it continues to this day (in levels about like in the surrounding communities). I believe I have mentioned before that my professing sister has had TWO babies die under mysterious circumstances in the past ten years (investigators wrote the deaths off as crib death--but were suspicious of her in both cases). The reason people don't care much about this is 1) most professing people don't want to hear anything negative about their group and 2) the exes for the most part want to promote stuff that tarnishes the workers. Since physical abuse is usually within the family and doesn't involve the workers--it doesn't fit anyone's agenda. So it must not occur. (an obvious myth). Believe me, it is also a myth that people just waltz on with their lives after living through a hell like I did. The trauma never goes away, it is in my head 24-7. r Clirkham, I know you've told tiny bits of your abused life and I get sicker everytime I read more of your young life's experience and I can understand fully that most of those things would be very hard to get out of one's head. Not only the hurt but also the lack any expression of approval or love wasn't there to soft pedal the worst part of the treatment.....it's too bad some human who was well aware of how you were abused did not report all of that abuse to the authorities! Course then we don't know how long your enemies would have left you alive! Just know I care and I AM very sorry that this is such a burden to you! I admire Chris for his courage in relating his experiences. They are extremely valuable contributions to the current overall abuse debate. If only more would have the courage of Chris, theolegranni, Snow, etc. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 11, 2013 9:14:29 GMT -5
r Clirkham, I know you've told tiny bits of your abused life and I get sicker everytime I read more of your young life's experience and I can understand fully that most of those things would be very hard to get out of one's head. Not only the hurt but also the lack any expression of approval or love wasn't there to soft pedal the worst part of the treatment.....it's too bad some human who was well aware of how you were abused did not report all of that abuse to the authorities! Course then we don't know how long your enemies would have left you alive! Just know I care and I AM very sorry that this is such a burden to you! I admire Chris for his courage in relating his experiences. They are extremely valuable contributions to the current overall abuse debate. If only more would have the courage of Chris, theolegranni, Snow, etc. I agree, Ram! I am well aware that in order for him to reaccount those horribles experiences, he's having to live it all over again. I think this helps me and others to understand when any abuse victim pleas not to have to come back to those memories, even to seek justice for themselves! Yes, Clirkham has lots of courage and I'm sure he'd be the first to tell anyone what treatment or abuse is correct or false! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2013 9:20:58 GMT -5
I admire Chris for his courage in relating his experiences. They are extremely valuable contributions to the current overall abuse debate. If only more would have the courage of Chris, theolegranni, Snow, etc. I agree, Ram! I am well aware that in order for him to reaccount those horribles experiences, he's having to live it all over again. I think this helps me and others to understand when any abuse victim pleas not to have to come back to those memories, even to seek justice for themselves! Yes, Clirkham has lots of courage and I'm sure he'd be the first to tell anyone what treatment or abuse is correct or false! Thanks Shaz. I hope Chris experiences some healing out of his sharing. Remember too that bad as some parents may be, their children don not want them to be seen in that light, even though they may be suffering badly from them. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 11, 2013 9:25:16 GMT -5
I agree, Ram! I am well aware that in order for him to reaccount those horribles experiences, he's having to live it all over again. I think this helps me and others to understand when any abuse victim pleas not to have to come back to those memories, even to seek justice for themselves! Yes, Clirkham has lots of courage and I'm sure he'd be the first to tell anyone what treatment or abuse is correct or false! Thanks Shaz. I hope Chris experiences some healing out of his sharing. Remember too that bad as some parents may be, their children don not want them to be seen in that light, even though they may be suffering badly from them. Back in my early years, I remember reading something about this. That children will lie for their parents and often it is without the parent threatening them to not tell the truth OR just that the parent tells them they'll whip them or some such treatment IF the child tells. It is something within children to want their parents to be more then another child's parents. I often think of the old phrase said by some children to another child and that IS "My daddy can whip your daddy." Now why would a child want his father to be beating up on another child's father? Simply because it shows how much more the father is then the other father! lah! |
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2013 19:49:00 GMT -5
FIXIT - any comments about this at all?
Bring it on! If there are in fact many more convictions and prison terms for physical abuse than CSA among friends and workers I'd be keen to know about it. In the mean time I'll start looking for broken bones, gaping wounds and bruises on kids in the church - especially after workers have visited.Are you serious? My family (like most--I suspect), was careful to hide the evidence. If anything showed--it had to be covered. If it couldn't be covered, then I stayed home "sick". For example, when I was young we lived for a couple years on an island in the Caribbean, a very hot and tropical place. I never was allowed to wear a pair of shorts (or swim trunks) no matter how hot it was (not at any time--even leisure in my own back yard). That is because there was constantly a network of whip marks on my legs, that needed to be hidden under HOT, long trousers. I still have those scars today...as well as others both inside and out. It would be a rare beating that would leave the kind of obvious damage you want to see, and a sloppy abuser who would let their victim out in public looking like that. If the damage couldn't be hidden, I was confined to my room until I was presentable. And yes--I missed about as much school as I attended. Fortunately I was fairly smart and hard working. If you want to spot the abused child, look for the one who involuntarily winces when his parent touches him. The one who seems afraid and nervous for no reason and has trouble looking people in the eye. The one who startles and shakes at sudden noises. If you are an educator--frequent lapses in attendance might be a tip-off. As far as worker visits--our beatings came before (and sometimes during) never right after. When my mother was stressed out about the upcoming visit--running around cleaning and cooking and doing errands--that was when she was on the verge of sanity. After the workers left--it was a big sigh of relief for the entire family--as the stress of acting perfect for the workers was over. So after a worker visit was a comparatively good time. |
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2013 19:55:46 GMT -5
You present some interesting arguments. First, you become aware of a few incidences of physical abuse over the last century of 2x2ism and you declare it a significant problem. Statistical analysis will argue against you that you do not have anywhere near the number of examples required to suggest physical abuse is anywhere near the norm of the population. If we have 200 allegations of CSA, then you have to find 1800 allegations of physical abuse and abuse of neglect to indicate that there is a problem equal to the society in general. But you have a handful? Then you argue that it is there even though the evidence is not there. It must be there. And you argue that because I don't see it or hear of it, I am now in the category of blind idiot who just doesn't see it because it is there even though there is scant evidence of it. I can well accept that people cover up physical abuse, but they cover up sexual abuse equally as well yet we know of many cases of CSA, and few of CPA. Finally, you claim I don't see it because it is so well hidden. Yet somehow, lots of statistics are generated for the general population. Hidden for us but not for them. That must mean that the F&Ws are much better at hiding their physical abuse. That isn't a bad argument, they are good at hiding the bad stuff that would bring shame of any kind. Sure we're good at coverups, but are we really that good? Find some criminal convictions. There are plenty of CSA criminal convictions so if these crimes are much greater, there must be many more. I would suggest to keep up the research. Keep bumping your CPA thread back to the top once in awhile. Set up a free web site somewhere, invite stories. Maybe something will emerge with a bit of patience and persistence. Any comments in light of what ckirkham posted? |
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2013 20:00:21 GMT -5
Just to point out something quite telling in regard to the issue of physical abuse, and the discussion going on right now; Notice who is on what side of the issue? Those of us that admit that CSA is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but see physical abuse as VERY rare in our fellowship. We are current 2X2's. In it every day, week, year. Some of us very involved. Really, no one would be closer to the problems - if there were any. Some of us have children, we are close to many other families with children. Then the other side are you who claim physical abuse is a problem within our fellowship. Everyone of you who are claiming this, are people who are on the outside, and have been for some time. You still have a picture in your mind of how things were when you left. Believe you me, things are different. The line is pretty much split between innies & exes on this issue. So I ask you, who would have a better idea of what is currently happing TODAY? Are you saying that what ckirkham has reported is not happening today? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 21:16:12 GMT -5
You present some interesting arguments. First, you become aware of a few incidences of physical abuse over the last century of 2x2ism and you declare it a significant problem. Statistical analysis will argue against you that you do not have anywhere near the number of examples required to suggest physical abuse is anywhere near the norm of the population. If we have 200 allegations of CSA, then you have to find 1800 allegations of physical abuse and abuse of neglect to indicate that there is a problem equal to the society in general. But you have a handful? Then you argue that it is there even though the evidence is not there. It must be there. And you argue that because I don't see it or hear of it, I am now in the category of blind idiot who just doesn't see it because it is there even though there is scant evidence of it. I can well accept that people cover up physical abuse, but they cover up sexual abuse equally as well yet we know of many cases of CSA, and few of CPA. Finally, you claim I don't see it because it is so well hidden. Yet somehow, lots of statistics are generated for the general population. Hidden for us but not for them. That must mean that the F&Ws are much better at hiding their physical abuse. That isn't a bad argument, they are good at hiding the bad stuff that would bring shame of any kind. Sure we're good at coverups, but are we really that good? Find some criminal convictions. There are plenty of CSA criminal convictions so if these crimes are much greater, there must be many more. I would suggest to keep up the research. Keep bumping your CPA thread back to the top once in awhile. Set up a free web site somewhere, invite stories. Maybe something will emerge with a bit of patience and persistence. Any comments in light of what ckirkham posted? Yes. On the Physical Abuse thread. |
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Post by jondough on Sept 13, 2013 5:18:16 GMT -5
Just to point out something quite telling in regard to the issue of physical abuse, and the discussion going on right now; Notice who is on what side of the issue? Those of us that admit that CSA is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but see physical abuse as VERY rare in our fellowship. We are current 2X2's. In it every day, week, year. Some of us very involved. Really, no one would be closer to the problems - if there were any. Some of us have children, we are close to many other families with children. Then the other side are you who claim physical abuse is a problem within our fellowship. Everyone of you who are claiming this, are people who are on the outside, and have been for some time. You still have a picture in your mind of how things were when you left. Believe you me, things are different. The line is pretty much split between innies & exes on this issue. So I ask you, who would have a better idea of what is currently happing TODAY? Are you saying that what ckirkham has reported is not happening today? What does "very rare" mean? |
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Post by Greg on Sept 13, 2013 7:05:06 GMT -5
Just to point out something quite telling in regard to the issue of physical abuse, and the discussion going on right now; Notice who is on what side of the issue? Those of us that admit that CSA is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but see physical abuse as VERY rare in our fellowship. We are current 2X2's. In it every day, week, year. Some of us very involved. Really, no one would be closer to the problems - if there were any. Some of us have children, we are close to many other families with children. Then the other side are you who claim physical abuse is a problem within our fellowship. Everyone of you who are claiming this, are people who are on the outside, and have been for some time. You still have a picture in your mind of how things were when you left. Believe you me, things are different. The line is pretty much split between innies & exes on this issue. So I ask you, who would have a better idea of what is currently happing TODAY? Who would have the better knowledge? The abusers and their victims/survivors. Not anyone uninvolved. Hard to say how much there is, but after years of denying (for some or many) the truth of the beginning of days (oh that never happened - just lies, bitter people)and more recently the CSA and other such immorality (oh that can't happen - just lies, bitter people) why would one accept any type of positive report without verification? Yet the younger generation might be kinder and gentler parents. Might. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 13, 2013 8:46:37 GMT -5
I am glad to hear that spanking, taking kids out of the meeting etc. is very rare now. Eases my mind because it was a very hard time for me. I guess from what I am reading my discipline was about the norm for the time? It was the norm to get taken out of meeting and spanked. However, parents would have varied in tolerance and frequency so whether the severity of your experience was average or extreme would require more information. I am fairly sure that my experience was at the lower end, and the last spanking I got was at 6 years of age. I learned after that never to get caught again and if caught always claim innocence somehow. That is one of the most damaging parts of physical violence against children, it destroys their integrity as they try to survive the beatings. I had to reclaim the parts of my integrity lost later in life......and I was living under a lower than average punitive regime at home growing up. I know kids who have totally lost all integrity, and it is all about survival in a punitive world. One thing to remember about our parents is that it was conventional wisdom to do it, and because it was conventional wisdom, they would have come under social pressure and ridicule if they didn't do it. None of them escaped that. Our generation had more freedom of choice on how we raised our kids, and our kids even more. I never got a slap, or a spanking for or in the mtgs. I was easily controlled by fear of the workers. Course I'd get tired esp. on Wed. nights and I'd stay awake as long as I could then I had to lean up against my brother or sister, usually my brother as my sister was professing and active in the mtgs. I don't remember Gram ever slapping me on the knee or something like that. The worst punishment I ever got was from an uncle...his youngest son and I were quite the buddies and we always loved sitting together and coloring.....one Sun. a.m. mtg. something happened to one of the ladies in the mtg. or she did something that we thought was funny and we did our best to hold our giggles inside but they had to come out anyway...well the uncle grabbed his son by the ear and twisted his ear and then he grabbed me by the ear which he didn't twist my ear but he maneuvered me around his long legs and he moved into my chair and then I had to sit in his which put him between us. We both still had a hard time not to giggle and after mtg. when my aunt asked us at the dinner table what was so funny, we told all that was there what was so funny...I remember my uncle rolling his head around and looking up at the ceiling and he couldn't stand it anymore so he got up and rushed to the bathroom and burst into belly laughs which he tried to drown out with flushing the toilet! My aunt was laughing and everybody at the table was laughing....my Gram said, "leave it to Ed and Sharon, not much escapes their eyes!" My uncle never corrected either one of us again and we sit together in mtg. several times after that but we were careful not to get to giggling! |
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Post by christiansburg on Sept 13, 2013 8:51:02 GMT -5
If a child is inconsolable or does not quieten with normal soft ways of changing their minds about the way they're acting...I think removing them from the mtgs. is the best way to take care of the situation before others within the mtgs. get upset at the parents' lack of ability to quieten their children. I am not saying spanking should continue but for the very young child, removing them out of the mtg. is the best thing for often the little tykes are fretful due to teething or other ailments or just having a bad day....little tykes are not developed enough to take on the advisement from a parent to quieten down, to get busy with something else etc. I've seen young parents spend the entire mtg. entertaining their little ones and the mtg. was of no benefit for that parent and likely that parent was so exhausted by the end of the mtg. that the little tyke picked up on that...... I totally agree sharingtheriches. Taking a child out when disruptive is a wise decision. There are so many reasons why the child may be noisy but not reasons that justify a spanking. I say removing a child from meeting when you can't quieten them is the best. Children will remember the embarrassment of a public spanking long after you have forgotten it. Children do deserve a whipping now and again but it needs to be carefully done and in private. My youngest son could never be controlled in meeting. I remember one Sunday we both went to the car and sat there until meeting was over. An after meeting whipping was an often event for him but I was never under peer pressure to do this. Children often receive this kind of punishment for many things other than meeting. You would have to admit if you were in a movie theater you would do the same thing. You all know the verse spare the rod and spoil the child. So I think it involves good wise judgement on the parents part. My last whipping was at the age of 13 for disobedience. Driving a car through the yard and hitting a tree. I deserved what I got. But I also determined that I would not cry while punishment was administered. It lasted much longer because of not crying. That was the end of whippings for me. |
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Post by rational on Sept 13, 2013 11:24:58 GMT -5
Children do deserve a whipping now and again but it needs to be carefully done and in private. What could a child possibly have done that would make them deserving of a whipping? When has inflicting pain on someone under your control ever been effective? Consider yourself at work. Would you agree to have electrodes attached that would give a painful, but non-lethal, shock every time someone in charge of you felt you deserved it?And this was your son's fault? Who is the adult in the situation?Sounds like the whipping was really effective if it was an "often event" for the child.I know no one who inflicts pain on their children as punishment.No, I would not have to admit that. If a child does not want to sit and watch a movie which is apparently not holding their interest why would you hurt them to make them watch it?No. Where can that verse be found?It involves no judgement. It is a base reaction. When someone/something does something to threaten you physically, emotionally, or questions your authority, hurting them is the basic animal reaction. You damaged a tree and car and feel for that you deserved to be physically, and perhaps emotionally, hurt?So you were physically hurt for not obeying and in addition, for not displaying the proper reaction to the pain being delivered?It sounds like that was the end of the physical pain that was inflicted on you but not the end of the physical pain you inflicted on those under your control. Parents hit their children for fighting with their siblings. Parents hit their children if they will not clean their room. Parents hit their children if they do not cooperate with the parents. When the only option you can think of for teaching children, children of any age, is pain perhaps it is time to step back and look for other options. Of course, it does teach the child fear. Perhaps resentment. And certainly that might makes right. No child (or person) deserves to be hurt. |
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Post by snow on Sept 13, 2013 15:23:14 GMT -5
I totally agree sharingtheriches. Taking a child out when disruptive is a wise decision. There are so many reasons why the child may be noisy but not reasons that justify a spanking. I say removing a child from meeting when you can't quieten them is the best. Children will remember the embarrassment of a public spanking long after you have forgotten it. Children do deserve a whipping now and again but it needs to be carefully done and in private. My youngest son could never be controlled in meeting. I remember one Sunday we both went to the car and sat there until meeting was over. An after meeting whipping was an often event for him but I was never under peer pressure to do this. Children often receive this kind of punishment for many things other than meeting. You would have to admit if you were in a movie theater you would do the same thing. You all know the verse spare the rod and spoil the child. So I think it involves good wise judgement on the parents part. My last whipping was at the age of 13 for disobedience. Driving a car through the yard and hitting a tree. I deserved what I got. But I also determined that I would not cry while punishment was administered. It lasted much longer because of not crying. That was the end of whippings for me. I used to get some pretty bad 'whippings' and when I was older slaps across the face and other things I'd rather not go into. However, it made me the type of parent that didn't ever want to discipline through spankings. And I only broke that rule a couple of times in the beginning with my first child and then couldn't see the good in it and never did it again. I never had any problem with my children, even in their teens. I give them all the credit for that. They were leaders not followers so I'm sure that made a difference. I used to be amazed that they would come to me sometimes and tell me that they were invited to such and such an outing and they didn't want to go because they didn't think it would be a good thing to do. They would ask me to say they couldn't go so they had an excuse. So I don't agree that sparing the rod spoils the child. In my case it seems it made them trust me more and they felt comfortable telling me things and also they didn't feel they needed to act out or rebel because I was too strict with them. |
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Post by christiansburg on Sept 13, 2013 17:12:25 GMT -5
I say removing a child from meeting when you can't quieten them is the best. Children will remember the embarrassment of a public spanking long after you have forgotten it. Children do deserve a whipping now and again but it needs to be carefully done and in private. My youngest son could never be controlled in meeting. I remember one Sunday we both went to the car and sat there until meeting was over. An after meeting whipping was an often event for him but I was never under peer pressure to do this. Children often receive this kind of punishment for many things other than meeting. You would have to admit if you were in a movie theater you would do the same thing. You all know the verse spare the rod and spoil the child. So I think it involves good wise judgement on the parents part. My last whipping was at the age of 13 for disobedience. Driving a car through the yard and hitting a tree. I deserved what I got. But I also determined that I would not cry while punishment was administered. It lasted much longer because of not crying. That was the end of whippings for me. I used to get some pretty bad 'whippings' and when I was older slaps across the face and other things I'd rather not go into. However, it made me the type of parent that didn't ever want to discipline through spankings. And I only broke that rule a couple of times in the beginning with my first child and then couldn't see the good in it and never did it again. I never had any problem with my children, even in their teens. I give them all the credit for that. They were leaders not followers so I'm sure that made a difference. I used to be amazed that they would come to me sometimes and tell me that they were invited to such and such an outing and they didn't want to go because they didn't think it would be a good thing to do. They would ask me to say they couldn't go so they had an excuse. So I don't agree that sparing the rod spoils the child. In my case it seems it made them trust me more and they felt comfortable telling me things and also they didn't feel they needed to act out or rebel because I was too strict with them. Sounds like you did a wonderful job raising your children. I like that. I never slapped. That just sounds too brutal. Sorry for the experiences you had. The rest of the story on my son was that he went quite wild until he was 24. I let him run his course and felt like he would settle down someday. I ran no interference during that time and got lots of grief from the rest of the family because of stepping back. He is now 32 and occasionally will call to say how sorry he is for those years. Of course we never stopped loving but love him even more now. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 18:04:30 GMT -5
I used to get some pretty bad 'whippings' and when I was older slaps across the face and other things I'd rather not go into. However, it made me the type of parent that didn't ever want to discipline through spankings. And I only broke that rule a couple of times in the beginning with my first child and then couldn't see the good in it and never did it again. I never had any problem with my children, even in their teens. I give them all the credit for that. They were leaders not followers so I'm sure that made a difference. I used to be amazed that they would come to me sometimes and tell me that they were invited to such and such an outing and they didn't want to go because they didn't think it would be a good thing to do. They would ask me to say they couldn't go so they had an excuse. So I don't agree that sparing the rod spoils the child. In my case it seems it made them trust me more and they felt comfortable telling me things and also they didn't feel they needed to act out or rebel because I was too strict with them. Sounds like you did a wonderful job raising your children. I like that. I never slapped. That just sounds too brutal. Sorry for the experiences you had. The rest of the story on my son was that he went quite wild until he was 24. I let him run his course and felt like he would settle down someday. I ran no interference during that time and got lots of grief from the rest of the family because of stepping back. He is now 32 and occasionally will call to say how sorry he is for those years. Of course we never stopped loving but love him even more now. I think the time has come for you to now say sorry for all the years you mistreated him. I know you meant well, but I have to say this: you abused him in your disciplinary methods. You were totally right though to step back when he was acting out. I will also suggest that your son's "wild" state had a strong connection to your discipline methods. It may not be the full cause and effect, but it will be a large part of it. In other words, his actions he feels sorry for in those years were a response to your (well intentioned) mistreatment of him. If you truly want to make your son whole, you need to first understand the error of your methods applied to him, and then honestly and wholeheartedly apologize to him. My guess is that deep down when he calls to apologize, he subconsciously wants your apology, not your forgiveness. My personal experience is almost identical to snow's. I did a few spankings on my first child and completely abandoned it very early on. My kids, again like snow's, were almost completely self-governing through their teen years and never gave us one minute (literally) of trouble. On the other hand, my own upbringing included spankings and fear (nothing out of the ordinary at the time), and I will admit that my late teens and early adulthood were nothing to be proud of. Yes, my loving parents abused me although mildly and unintentionally, but it was abuse nonetheless. I'm not complaining as my childhood was largely fantastic with a lot of freedom, but the disciplinary methodology of the times were damaging. |
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Post by christiansburg on Sept 13, 2013 19:02:44 GMT -5
Sounds like you did a wonderful job raising your children. I like that. I never slapped. That just sounds too brutal. Sorry for the experiences you had. The rest of the story on my son was that he went quite wild until he was 24. I let him run his course and felt like he would settle down someday. I ran no interference during that time and got lots of grief from the rest of the family because of stepping back. He is now 32 and occasionally will call to say how sorry he is for those years. Of course we never stopped loving but love him even more now. I think the time has come for you to now say sorry for all the years you mistreated him. I know you meant well, but I have to say this: you abused him in your disciplinary methods. You were totally right though to step back when he was acting out. I will also suggest that your son's "wild" state had a strong connection to your discipline methods. It may not be the full cause and effect, but it will be a large part of it. In other words, his actions he feels sorry for in those years were a response to your (well intentioned) mistreatment of him. If you truly want to make your son whole, you need to first understand the error of your methods applied to him, and then honestly and wholeheartedly apologize to him. My guess is that deep down when he calls to apologize, he subconsciously wants your apology, not your forgiveness. My personal experience is almost identical to snow's. I did a few spankings on my first child and completely abandoned it very early on. My kids, again like snow's, were almost completely self-governing through their teen years and never gave us one minute (literally) of trouble. On the other hand, my own upbringing included spankings and fear (nothing out of the ordinary at the time), and I will admit that my late teens and early adulthood were nothing to be proud of. Yes, my loving parents abused me although mildly and unintentionally, but it was abuse nonetheless. I'm not complaining as my childhood was largely fantastic with a lot of freedom, but the disciplinary methodology of the times were damaging. Actually my son's wild state had nothing to do with the way we raised him. I believe children just react to things differently. We had two other children raised the same way and they never had the wild years. We just could tell early on he had a different nature. We never forced any of them to even attend meeting when thy became teenagers. We just felt we were not going to force our ideas on them. Of course you have to admit that as a parent you must provide guidance to a child. The "wild one" has thanked us many times for the way we raised him. I was amazed that he felt this way. So we have no apologies due and he knows that. We have seen some parents so oppressive with their children you would almost feel like stepping in to defend the child. You would have liked us as parents I guarantee it! I totally feel for both of you and I know you may still suffer because of that. |
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Post by christiansburg on Sept 13, 2013 19:13:35 GMT -5
Children do deserve a whipping now and again but it needs to be carefully done and in private. What could a child possibly have done that would make them deserving of a whipping? When has inflicting pain on someone under your control ever been effective? Consider yourself at work. Would you agree to have electrodes attached that would give a painful, but non-lethal, shock every time someone in charge of you felt you deserved it?And this was your son's fault? Who is the adult in the situation?Sounds like the whipping was really effective if it was an "often event" for the child.I know no one who inflicts pain on their children as punishment.No, I would not have to admit that. If a child does not want to sit and watch a movie which is apparently not holding their interest why would you hurt them to make them watch it?No. Where can that verse be found?It involves no judgement. It is a base reaction. When someone/something does something to threaten you physically, emotionally, or questions your authority, hurting them is the basic animal reaction. You damaged a tree and car and feel for that you deserved to be physically, and perhaps emotionally, hurt?So you were physically hurt for not obeying and in addition, for not displaying the proper reaction to the pain being delivered?It sounds like that was the end of the physical pain that was inflicted on you but not the end of the physical pain you inflicted on those under your control. Parents hit their children for fighting with their siblings. Parents hit their children if they will not clean their room. Parents hit their children if they do not cooperate with the parents. When the only option you can think of for teaching children, children of any age, is pain perhaps it is time to step back and look for other options. Of course, it does teach the child fear. Perhaps resentment. And certainly that might makes right. No child (or person) deserves to be hurt. Sounds like you have a lot of resentment going on somewhere in your life. Nothing like parsing words and putting a real spin on things. |
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