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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 12:39:43 GMT -5
Ram: how should we stop friends and workers from physically abusing our children? Report them. Just like any other abuse to children. Report them to the authorities. That works well if you have something to report. There is lots that can be done. We need to nurture a culture in which all violence is unacceptable, every bit of it. One of the advantages of that is that kids don't get bamboozled into "this is for your own good" or "this hurts me more than it hurts you" nonsense. All that has to go out the window so there is no confusion for kids. Kids need to know that everyone is on their side and there is no tolerance for any violence. Workers should preach the non-violence aspect of Jesus' teachings and relate it to a non-violent home life. If that sort of culture is not cultivated, then some violence will slip under the radar disguised as legitimate disciplinary measures. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 12:41:46 GMT -5
Report them. Just like any other abuse to children. Report them to the authorities. That works well if you have something to report. There is lots that can be done. We need to nurture a culture in which all violence is unacceptable, every bit of it. One of the advantages of that is that kids don't get bamboozled into "this is for your own good" or "this hurts me more than it hurts you" nonsense. All that has to go out the window so there is no confusion for kids. Kids need to know that everyone is on their side and there is no tolerance for any violence. Workers should preach the non-violence aspect of Jesus' teachings and relate it to a non-violent home life. If that sort of culture is not cultivated, then some violence will slip under the radar disguised as legitimate disciplinary measures. We are definitely starting to get there! It's springtime. I can see the shoots! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 12:45:04 GMT -5
I would recommend you and rational digging through the book "Reflections" for examples of physical abuse. There are some there. I know a few potential sources from past readings. I am sure you appreciate it is quite a time-consuming task. That is one of the reasons I created a thread for contributions. Would you accept testimonies from VOT? I don't reject anything. I leave that to the authorities. If you are compiling, I suggest attaching rough dates for it so we can determine if the problem is increasing or decreasing. Also, whether is was considered disciplinary measures or if it was the result of sadistic abuse would be helpful. For mine, the last time I was hit with a belt at home was 1959. In fact, it was a 3 in 1. Three spankings in one session for three offenses. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 12:46:17 GMT -5
That works well if you have something to report. There is lots that can be done. We need to nurture a culture in which all violence is unacceptable, every bit of it. One of the advantages of that is that kids don't get bamboozled into "this is for your own good" or "this hurts me more than it hurts you" nonsense. All that has to go out the window so there is no confusion for kids. Kids need to know that everyone is on their side and there is no tolerance for any violence. Workers should preach the non-violence aspect of Jesus' teachings and relate it to a non-violent home life. If that sort of culture is not cultivated, then some violence will slip under the radar disguised as legitimate disciplinary measures. We are definitely starting to get there! It's springtime. I can see the shoots! Somebody has to speak up with ideas, no one else is doing it. If nothing else, we can get rid of corporal punishment in the home if there is still any out there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 12:56:15 GMT -5
We are definitely starting to get there! It's springtime. I can see the shoots! Somebody has to speak up with ideas, no one else is doing it. If nothing else, we can get rid of corporal punishment in the home if there is still any out there. I agree with speaking up. All good ideas should go into the melting pot for consideration. Re- corporal punishment (non-CPA), I think considerable progress has been made by making it socially unacceptable. There will always be considerable amounts of non-CPA corporal punishment because of the environments and factors which generate it. However, that does not mean that it cannot be kept at a reasonably low level. In the main it will remain hidden, behind closed doors, especially if it is at levels below that which constitutes CPA and therefore reportable. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 13:09:31 GMT -5
I know a few potential sources from past readings. I am sure you appreciate it is quite a time-consuming task. That is one of the reasons I created a thread for contributions. Would you accept testimonies from VOT? I don't reject anything. I leave that to the authorities. If you are compiling, I suggest attaching rough dates for it so we can determine if the problem is increasing or decreasing. Also, whether is was considered disciplinary measures or if it was the result of sadistic abuse would be helpful. For mine, the last time I was hit with a belt at home was 1959. In fact, it was a 3 in 1. Three spankings in one session for three offenses. I am NOT compiling, at least for the time being. I had thought about this several times in the past for both physical abuse and emotional abuse. The reason was not so much to prove anything other than using the similarities in character from independent sources to show the likelihood of a problem that is worthy of research and investigation. I think already we have seen enough to suggest "there may be more to this than meets the eye."As I have stated in the very recent past, I don't know the extent of the problem. I know there are various reports from the past. It may be less than society at large, or more so. I keep an open mind, that way I am prepared for surprises, one way or the other. I think it would be difficult to determine whether even the worst cases were sadistic or disciplinary. Perhaps a combination of both. It may start of as disciplinary. If the child is not responding the way the perpetrating parent wants, the parent may simply get desperate and up the level of physical punishment, or the sadistically influenced may simply use discipline as an excuse to go to extreme lengths? I am prepared (hopeful)to accept that the problem is not huge, but I cannot see any way round the best policy being that all abuse is unacceptable and that by having an approach dealing with all is the best way forward. I think even having measures to combat worker to worker abuse, especially to protect young workers from potential abuse from older workers who they are paired with, is an important step as well. There's no need to reduce the focus on CSA, just simply raise the other matters to an important level as well. I am a firm believer that by tackling spiritual abuse in much the same way you would like to see corporal punishment eradicated, would go a long way towards addressing all forms of abuse within the sect, as it would tackle many of the environmental and cultural influences which allow the abuses thrive. It might be an idea to have a site where people can give information about abuses within their knowledge, purely for the purposes of gaining some intelligence into the frequency or degree of the problem. Adults can be assured in advance that unless they wish the matter reported to the authorities that this will not happen. A more delicate approach would have to be considered if the alleged victims were still children, especially in areas where mandatory reporting applies? |
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2013 13:31:46 GMT -5
Report them. Just like any other abuse to children. Report them to the authorities. That works well if you have something to report. There is lots that can be done. We need to nurture a culture in which all violence is unacceptable, every bit of it. One of the advantages of that is that kids don't get bamboozled into "this is for your own good" or "this hurts me more than it hurts you" nonsense. All that has to go out the window so there is no confusion for kids. Kids need to know that everyone is on their side and there is no tolerance for any violence. Workers should preach the non-violence aspect of Jesus' teachings and relate it to a non-violent home life. If that sort of culture is not cultivated, then some violence will slip under the radar disguised as legitimate disciplinary measures. Yes, educate the child what is permissible and to report anyone who steps over those boundaries. But many parents don't want you teaching their children their 'rights'. They think they own that child and should be able to do anything they believe with them. That's why parents that are religious don't like it when people who don't believe in a God that sends people to hell, tell them that it's abuse to tell children that. How do you get around the 'belief' of parents that it's alright to teach or treat their children a certain way, because of what they 'believe'? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 14:06:07 GMT -5
Somebody has to speak up with ideas, no one else is doing it. If nothing else, we can get rid of corporal punishment in the home if there is still any out there. I agree with speaking up. All good ideas should go into the melting pot for consideration. Re- corporal punishment (non-CPA), I think considerable progress has been made by making it socially unacceptable. There will always be considerable amounts of non-CPA corporal punishment because of the environments and factors which generate it. However, that does not mean that it cannot be kept at a reasonably low level. In the main it will remain hidden, behind closed doors, especially if it is at levels below that which constitutes CPA and therefore reportable. It may be that your country has different practices than this country. Corporal punishment is hugely unpopular here and is practiced only by abusers and fundamentalists. The mainstream does not practice it. Legally, it is to a great extent a criminal offense. Here is how it goes here: -Parents cannot strike a child under 2 for any reason. -Parents cannot strike a child over 2 with any instrument whatsoever, such as a belt or a ruler. -Parents cannot strike a child over 2 to any extent greater than what is a " transitory or trifling" level so most corporal punishment could be potentially be interpreted as a criminal offense. -Non-parents cannot strike any child so schools cannot employ corporal punishment. They are allowed "reasonable force" to remove a child from the classroom. There was a bill that was passed by all houses here but died due to an election that was even more specific and allowed minor striking on the hand only to protect a child from momentary danger such as the child reaching out to touch a hot stove or to educate them not to do something. It was to be a criminal matter if used as a disciplinary practice. We now have a socially conservative government in place for one or two more terms, then this will be introduced again and passed. The vast majority of the public is in favour of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 14:12:57 GMT -5
That works well if you have something to report. There is lots that can be done. We need to nurture a culture in which all violence is unacceptable, every bit of it. One of the advantages of that is that kids don't get bamboozled into "this is for your own good" or "this hurts me more than it hurts you" nonsense. All that has to go out the window so there is no confusion for kids. Kids need to know that everyone is on their side and there is no tolerance for any violence. Workers should preach the non-violence aspect of Jesus' teachings and relate it to a non-violent home life. If that sort of culture is not cultivated, then some violence will slip under the radar disguised as legitimate disciplinary measures. Yes, educate the child what is permissible and to report anyone who steps over those boundaries. But many parents don't want you teaching their children their 'rights'. They think they own that child and should be able to do anything they believe with them. That's why parents that are religious don't like it when people who don't believe in a God that sends people to hell, tell them that it's abuse to tell children that. How do you get around the 'belief' of parents that it's alright to teach or treat their children a certain way, because of what they 'believe'? This is very difficult to get around the sanctity of the parents. However, kids do get education on this in pre-school and in primary schools. They also learn from their friends what is acceptable so now that non-violence is a mainstream value, society will penetrate the home that sets up defenses against non-violence. Also, health care professionals are trained to see signs of problems like this. In our province, there is (or at least was) a post natal visit (3 or 4 months after birth) by a public health nurse and one of their mandates was to look for an environment of abuse, particularly neglect but others as well, assessing risk effectively. I doubt that this problem can ever be completely solved without a Big Brother monitoring system. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 14:34:19 GMT -5
I agree with speaking up. All good ideas should go into the melting pot for consideration. Re- corporal punishment (non-CPA), I think considerable progress has been made by making it socially unacceptable. There will always be considerable amounts of non-CPA corporal punishment because of the environments and factors which generate it. However, that does not mean that it cannot be kept at a reasonably low level. In the main it will remain hidden, behind closed doors, especially if it is at levels below that which constitutes CPA and therefore reportable. It may be that your country has different practices than this country. Corporal punishment is hugely unpopular here and is practiced only by abusers and fundamentalists. The mainstream does not practice it. Legally, it is to a great extent a criminal offense. Here is how it goes here: -Parents cannot strike a child under 2 for any reason. -Parents cannot strike a child over 2 with any instrument whatsoever, such as a belt or a ruler. -Parents cannot strike a child over 2 to any extent greater than what is a " transitory or trifling" level so most corporal punishment could be potentially be interpreted as a criminal offense. -Non-parents cannot strike any child so schools cannot employ corporal punishment. They are allowed "reasonable force" to remove a child from the classroom. There was a bill that was passed by all houses here but died due to an election that was even more specific and allowed minor striking on the hand only to protect a child from momentary danger such as the child reaching out to touch a hot stove or to educate them not to do something. It was to be a criminal matter if used as a disciplinary practice. We now have a socially conservative government in place for one or two more terms, then this will be introduced again and passed. The vast majority of the public is in favour of it. Personally I don't see much difference between our two countries, other than the type of things listed above are considered on a case by case basis. Low level corporal punishment is basically socially unacceptable, although not illegal. Any physical chastisement was always to be proportionate and not of a manner likely to harm the child. Striking a two year old child, other than by slight means is always a very risky business. Certainly not advisable. Using an instrument such as a slipper, belt or ruler, although commonly practiced in the past, was always a risky matter too. Any degree of chastisement which marked a child would render the parent or teacher liable to prosecution. Using an instrument made this more likely. Teachers belting pupils was halted over here around the mid 70's or slightly later. Parents indulging in corporal punishment always ran the risk of crossing the line if the child was marked or bruised, but as we know much of it remained behind closed doors. If I remember correctly, it was the excessive cases which came to light which brought about the social unacceptability of physical chastisement. A teacher broke two fingers of a pupil giving him the strap and the practice was banned soon afterwards. A few excessive cases of parents chastising their children coming before the courts led to the social unacceptability. |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2013 15:23:37 GMT -5
Here are some: The letter from Dale R on WINGS states that all of the children were physically, mentally, and emotionally abused by both their father and mother. Kent 2 relates that the children were hit with a cowboy belt with a silver buckle. You should really read the letters for yourself rather than me listing them. I got hit with a belt with a big buckle on it too. It wasn't silver, so does it count in your statistical analysis proving that physical abuse is a big problem today? This is the type of response that leads me to believe that you do not care about any data that is supplied regarding physical abuse within the F&W group. I cite a letter written by an ex-member who states that he and his siblings were physically abused and your response is basically "So was I so it doesn't count as abuse." If you were struck with a belt/buckle you simply add an additional case of physical abuse to the count. Denying abuse doesn't mean it doesn't exist. |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2013 15:29:07 GMT -5
Report them. Just like any other abuse to children. Report them to the authorities. That works well if you have something to report. There is lots that can be done. We need to nurture a culture in which all violence is unacceptable, every bit of it. One of the advantages of that is that kids don't get bamboozled into "this is for your own good" or "this hurts me more than it hurts you" nonsense. All that has to go out the window so there is no confusion for kids. Kids need to know that everyone is on their side and there is no tolerance for any violence. Workers should preach the non-violence aspect of Jesus' teachings and relate it to a non-violent home life. If that sort of culture is not cultivated, then some violence will slip under the radar disguised as legitimate disciplinary measures. People need to take religion/god out of the child rearing business. It is tough to teach non-violence when a huge part of the message is "If you don't do as I say, you will burn in hell for all eternity." |
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2013 15:31:14 GMT -5
Ram: how should we stop friends and workers from physically abusing our children? Report them. Just like any other abuse to children. Report them to the authorities. When I see evidence that a worker has physically abused a child I'll report it to the authorities. Some folks are insisting that all forms of child abuse are related, so when I see broken bones, bleeding and bruises from worker abuse then I'll keep an eye open for child sexual abuse as well. |
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2013 15:41:51 GMT -5
I got hit with a belt with a big buckle on it too. It wasn't silver, so does it count in your statistical analysis proving that physical abuse is a big problem today? This is the type of response that leads me to believe that you do not care about any data that is supplied regarding physical abuse within the F&W group. I cite a letter written by an ex-member who states that he and his siblings were physically abused and your response is basically "So was I so it doesn't count as abuse." If you were struck with a belt/buckle you simply add an additional case of physical abuse to the count. Denying abuse doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Did you read the following post? There is lots that can be done. We need to nurture a culture in which all violence is unacceptable, every bit of it. One of the advantages of that is that kids don't get bamboozled into "this is for your own good" or "this hurts me more than it hurts you" nonsense. All that has to go out the window so there is no confusion for kids. Kids need to know that everyone is on their side and there is no tolerance for any violence. Workers should preach the non-violence aspect of Jesus' teachings and relate it to a non-violent home life. If that sort of culture is not cultivated, then some violence will slip under the radar disguised as legitimate disciplinary measures. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 15:45:33 GMT -5
Report them. Just like any other abuse to children. Report them to the authorities. When I see evidence that a worker has physically abused a child I'll report it to the authorities. Some folks are insisting that all forms of child abuse are related, so when I see broken bones, bleeding and bruises from worker abuse then I'll keep an eye open for child sexual abuse as well. I provided you with good links as to what the major organisations dealing with child abuse do and you simply ignore them. This suggests to me that YOU want something that suits YOU or YOUR AGENDA, NOT what's best for the protection of children. |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2013 15:58:07 GMT -5
Report them. Just like any other abuse to children. Report them to the authorities. When I see evidence that a worker has physically abused a child I'll report it to the authorities. Some folks are insisting that all forms of child abuse are related, so when I see broken bones, bleeding and bruises from worker abuse then I'll keep an eye open for child sexual abuse as well. This is a great idea. Workers are the only abusers so keeping your eye on them will solve the problems. Do you really believe that workers are the major child abusers in the F&W group? Even the major sexual abusers? Did you read the letter at the start of this post? She was sexually molested by her father from a young age and then raped repeatedly by her father, starting at age 11, and also by her grandfather. Yet you can still joke about keeping lookout for abuse by the workers. Jean reports the lack of love in her family, tells a story of emotional abuse by her parents, and how she became an easy victim of IH since he was the only figure in her life that gave her any positive attention. Abuse does go hand in hand. An abused child is vulnerable and more likely to suffer additional abuse at the hands of others. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 16:03:25 GMT -5
I got hit with a belt with a big buckle on it too. It wasn't silver, so does it count in your statistical analysis proving that physical abuse is a big problem today? This is the type of response that leads me to believe that you do not care about any data that is supplied regarding physical abuse within the F&W group. I cite a letter written by an ex-member who states that he and his siblings were physically abused and your response is basically "So was I so it doesn't count as abuse." If you were struck with a belt/buckle you simply add an additional case of physical abuse to the count. Denying abuse doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Believe what you like, but I was hoping to highlight the absurdity of trying to overlay abuse of another era onto today. You made a claim of physical abuse which looks like commonplace corporal punishment of that era: spanking with a belt. That was common and acceptable then, it is uncommon and criminal today (in my country). If that is what you are going to be basing claims of big physical abuse problems among F&Ws today, you're right, I'm not interested because it is nothing new and is definitely very old and bears no resemblance to today's practices. Don't be mistaken, I believe that what I got was abuse. The problem is, it was acceptable, common and legal practice then, but completely the opposite today. I know my father didn't like doing it, but that was what people felt compelled to do back then. Yes, today is different, you seem to be in complete denial about that. |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2013 16:07:31 GMT -5
Would you accept testimonies from VOT? I don't reject anything.[/quote]That simply is not true. I pointed out a number of posted stories and you said they were from an earlier time, that type of abuse wasn't happening any more, and rejected their validity for demonstrating the fact that physical abuse was a F&W issue. Even the recent removal of 4 children from a home in MI was rejected as evidence that physical abuse was a problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 16:16:53 GMT -5
When I see evidence that a worker has physically abused a child I'll report it to the authorities. Some folks are insisting that all forms of child abuse are related, so when I see broken bones, bleeding and bruises from worker abuse then I'll keep an eye open for child sexual abuse as well. I provided you with good links as to what the major organisations dealing with child abuse do and you simply ignore them. This suggests to me that YOU want something that suits YOU or YOUR AGENDA, NOT what's best for the protection of children. All we hear so far is you and rational claiming there are big physical abuse problems among the F&Ws, but you offer no proof of it and no solutions except URLs to read. What is YOUR agenda? |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2013 16:20:18 GMT -5
Believe what you like, but I was hoping to highlight the absurdity of trying to overlay abuse of another era onto today. You made a claim of physical abuse which looks like commonplace corporal punishment of that era: spanking with a belt. That was common and acceptable then, it is uncommon and criminal today (in my country). If that is what you are going to be basing claims of big physical abuse problems among F&Ws today, you're right, I'm not interested because it is nothing new and is definitely very old and bears no resemblance to today's practices. Don't be mistaken, I believe that what I got was abuse. The problem is, it was acceptable, common and legal practice then, but completely the opposite today. I know my father didn't like doing it, but that was what people felt compelled to do back then. Yes, today is different, you seem to be in complete denial about that. [/quote]I see. New discussion. Hitting a child with a belt with a buckle has not been legal for a long time but the issue is now whether the abuse was an accepted practice or not, at the time of the abuse. That changes the whole discussion. In many southern states it is completely acceptable to strike a child with something other than the open hand. from your view point, because it is acceptable behavior in the south it is not abuse. No need to worry about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 16:27:43 GMT -5
That simply is not true. I pointed out a number of posted stories and you said they were from an earlier time, that type of abuse wasn't happening any more, and rejected their validity for demonstrating the fact that physical abuse was a F&W issue. Even the recent removal of 4 children from a home in MI was rejected as evidence that physical abuse was a problem. [/quote] I don't reject those stories. There a couple hundred alleged cases of CSA out there. That means there will be 1800 alleged cases of physical abuse and abuse of neglect according to your calculations. A couple of stories doesn't cut the mustard to extrapolate an epidemic of physical abuse. You need to demonstrate that it is as rampant as you claim it is. There are more examples of physical abuse out there than what you have brought up, but there is still no evidence of a problem of anywhere near the severity you suggest, particularly over the last 20 years. And fyi, I have looked deeply into the MI story. It provides me with very little evidence that physical abuse is rampant among the F&Ws all over the world over the last decade. Extrapolating from one story where the children were returned home and the parents put in a great deal of effort to proclaim their innocence and were not convicted of child abuse in spite of a significant investigation is hardly evidence of thousands of cases of physical abuse all over the world. |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2013 16:30:13 GMT -5
I provided you with good links as to what the major organisations dealing with child abuse do and you simply ignore them. This suggests to me that YOU want something that suits YOU or YOUR AGENDA, NOT what's best for the protection of children. All we hear so far is you and rational claiming there are big physical abuse problems among the F&Ws, but you offer no proof of it and no solutions except URLs to read. What is YOUR agenda? We have pointed out cases of physical abuse. They are considered by you to be too old, equal to the same punishment you received so it isn't really abuse, and, in the case of the children in MI, probably just something made up that caused the state to remove the children from their parents for a year. Marie posted that children in her meeting were reported to the state because of abuse. But perhaps these people are all making it up. Maybe the issue is because we have different points of view. From your posts it seems that you see physical abuse as the result of over zealous corporal punishment. You seem to feel that a decrease in corporal punishment will reduce physical abuse at the hands of parents. A decrease in corporal punishment is a good thing. But how does it relate to physical abuse? |
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2013 16:30:22 GMT -5
Yes, educate the child what is permissible and to report anyone who steps over those boundaries. But many parents don't want you teaching their children their 'rights'. They think they own that child and should be able to do anything they believe with them. That's why parents that are religious don't like it when people who don't believe in a God that sends people to hell, tell them that it's abuse to tell children that. How do you get around the 'belief' of parents that it's alright to teach or treat their children a certain way, because of what they 'believe'? This is very difficult to get around the sanctity of the parents. However, kids do get education on this in pre-school and in primary schools. They also learn from their friends what is acceptable so now that non-violence is a mainstream value, society will penetrate the home that sets up defenses against non-violence. Also, health care professionals are trained to see signs of problems like this. In our province, there is (or at least was) a post natal visit (3 or 4 months after birth) by a public health nurse and one of their mandates was to look for an environment of abuse, particularly neglect but others as well, assessing risk effectively. I doubt that this problem can ever be completely solved without a Big Brother monitoring system. I have seen many changes for the better in this area. We still have a long way to go though. Some kids are so beaten down even by pre school that any teachings may be heard, but they are already too scared to do anything. My niece is taking care of her husband's brother's little boy. All the children were removed from the home when his older sister died. It has recently come out that it was murder and both parents are up for 1st degree murder. However, the boy that my niece is caring for was deathly afraid of water and they couldn't figure out why. Apparently he and his sister that died were punished with water. Putting them into a shower that was either scalding hot or ice cold. They have had him 2 years now and it was only this summer that they got him to jump into the water off a boat. A huge breakthrough. He is now 5 years old. So he was already so beaten down at 3 when she got him that it took over a year to even know why he was so scared of the tub and showers. That was their form of punishment along with putting them in a closet. These things may never be known because they don't always show up physically on a child and the child certainly won't talk about it. In fact, in his case, it's like he suppressed it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 16:34:20 GMT -5
I provided you with good links as to what the major organisations dealing with child abuse do and you simply ignore them. This suggests to me that YOU want something that suits YOU or YOUR AGENDA, NOT what's best for the protection of children. All we hear so far is you and rational claiming there are big physical abuse problems among the F&Ws, but you offer no proof of it and no solutions except URLs to read. What is YOUR agenda? You need to pay more attention to my posts. Several times I have clearly stated that I am aware that child physical abuse does occur within the F&W's sect, just as YOU are aware. I have clearly stated that I do not know the degree of this abuse, that it may be less than society in general or it may be moreso. Also, that I hoped your views were right, although I exercised caution and keep an open mind. You also know fine what my agenda is. Simply put, to have all other forms of abuse, not just the other forms of child abuse, added to the awareness and protection measures thus far given to CSA. Not a very noble goal, is it? You know dashed fine that already sufficient information has been provided by people on this board over the last 1-2 days that are very indicative of child physical abuse at least, being more prevalent than previously given recognition to. The only way that I can personally indicate this further is to trawl through websites and 2x2 books for relevant testimonies. I know they are there because I read them several years ago. I do not have the time to go reading all that stuff again, at least at the moment. I am satisfied with what I read in the past, and for the present, sufficient has come out that even a very cautious mind would conclude "there appears to be more to this than meets the eye!"In my view this is sufficient to embrace the other forms of child abuse in any awareness, education and preventative measures. The F&W's sect is NO different from other sects or denominations in regard to abuses occurring and does not warrant special dispensation. It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that certain people just simply do not want to consider other forms of abuse than CSA. I suspect the true reasons lie beyond the rightful protection of children and may have something to do with perceived responses from the workers, or difficulty in introducing such things to the fellowship? |
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2013 16:39:41 GMT -5
When I see evidence that a worker has physically abused a child I'll report it to the authorities. Some folks are insisting that all forms of child abuse are related, so when I see broken bones, bleeding and bruises from worker abuse then I'll keep an eye open for child sexual abuse as well. I provided you with good links as to what the major organisations dealing with child abuse do and you simply ignore them. This suggests to me that YOU want something that suits YOU or YOUR AGENDA, NOT what's best for the protection of children. My agenda is the elimination of child sexual abuse in the fellowship. You seem to want to dilute the serious CSA problem that we have by incorporating it into something wider. Sort of like "we shouldn't focus on murder because theft and murder are connected". |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2013 16:39:41 GMT -5
That simply is not true. I pointed out a number of posted stories and you said they were from an earlier time, that type of abuse wasn't happening any more, and rejected their validity for demonstrating the fact that physical abuse was a F&W issue. Even the recent removal of 4 children from a home in MI was rejected as evidence that physical abuse was a problem. No. There will be 1800 cases of non-sexual abuse. I have never stated that there were 9X as many physical abuse cases. In fact, I even posted a graph to make it clear. I do realize that you and Fixit keep saying 9 time as many cases of physical abuse but you are simply not being accurate. It was simply another example of physical abuse within the F&W that you reject. Didn't the parents plead guilty? Or, the state made a mistake and removed the children for no reason. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 16:46:56 GMT -5
I provided you with good links as to what the major organisations dealing with child abuse do and you simply ignore them. This suggests to me that YOU want something that suits YOU or YOUR AGENDA, NOT what's best for the protection of children. My agenda is the elimination of child sexual abuse in the fellowship. A very noble agenda, but a limited one. Also very restricting. How do you plan to tackle the legal responsibilities of workers (where it applies) with regards to ALL forms of child abuse? Remember, they are right in the firing line if they uphold the Matt.10 principle by going from house to house.
You seem to want to dilute the serious CSA problem that we have by incorporating it into something wider. Not dilute. That is false. You have completely ignored even the best advice and information from professional bodies in order to remain comfortable with your restricted agenda. I am following the guidance of the professionals. Are you? Or do you know better than them?Sort of like "we shouldn't focus on murder because theft and murder are connected". If separate cases of murder and theft occur, do we ignore one and pursue the other, or do we devote appropriate available resources to both? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 16:47:02 GMT -5
All we hear so far is you and rational claiming there are big physical abuse problems among the F&Ws, but you offer no proof of it and no solutions except URLs to read. What is YOUR agenda? We have pointed out cases of physical abuse. They are considered by you to be too old, equal to the same punishment you received so it isn't really abuse, and, in the case of the children in MI, probably just something made up that caused the state to remove the children from their parents for a year. Marie posted that children in her meeting were reported to the state because of abuse. But perhaps these people are all making it up. I am getting weary again of your blatant misrepresentation of my position, this is getting ridiculous. I have always held that the old cases of spanking were abusive and that I was abused too. I won't be repeating that again either for awhile. Now that you have two cases of people being reported to the state, how many of that sample were convicted of child abuse, or had their children permanently removed from them? Any? Anywhere? Any jail sentences for child abuse anywhere where there was not CSA? I don't know the answer to that question but your keen interest in this subject indicates that you should know the answer. Not at all, even though there are connections to corporal punishment abuse. The corporal punishment discussion was a result of it being touted here as a legitimate form of abuse, which it is not. There is no reason ever to inflict pain on a child for the purposes of discipline. CP is indeed a gateway for escalating abuse and it is also a cover for physical abuse but not the cause of all physical abuse nor the solution in its elimination. I have given some ideas for the elimination of physical abuse. Regardless, some physical abuse skips CP altogether with twisted people who smash up kids for their own purposes. The values of calling for the end of CP are something I have explained (I thought quite clearly but obviously not) but to suggest that it will end physical abuse is a nutty idea. It is just a part of the solution, solutions being something you and ram have been extremely short in providing here. If you can't provide proof of a big problem, at least you could do something positive and start providing some suggested solutions to the massive problem you insist does exist. |
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