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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 23, 2013 14:03:53 GMT -5
I was 14 before I discovered who I really was...the daughter of a sister worker. I was told that my biological Mother was a sister worker named Kathryn Carter. When she was in the work in Mexico, she happened to be in a shoe shop at closing time. She invited the owner to gospel meetings. He was a married man with several children, and he raped her in a back room of his shop. I don't know where her companion was at the time. When it was confirmed that she was pregnant, she deserted her companion and nobody knew why she left the work when she did or where she went. What could be worse for a sister worker--than to discover she was pregnant??
After returning to the States, she contacted Dr. Baker, a professing physician because she wanted some friends to adopt her baby. Meanwhile, she found work as a nanny for a couple and their children. Dr. Baker delivered me on June 8, 1969. When I was three days old, I was adopted by my parents. I was the youngest of their four children...
My parents had two sons and a one year old daughter. Dr. Baker, a professing doctor, contacted them about a baby girl who needed a home (me). Not knowing anyone else who wanted a baby girl at the time, he tried to persuade them to adopt me. He told them about my mother who wanted her baby girl to be raised in a professing home, etc. They eventually agreed to take me. Years later, Mom told me, "We figured we might as well adopt you--then we would have two boys and two girls." This comment made me feel completely unloved and unwanted. When I learned that it really wasn't my parents' idea to adopt me, I felt like I was a burden on them, and I have felt this way all my life. As of August, 1996, my brother Gerald is 31, Richard is 29; my sister, Sally is 28, and I am 27...
For as long as I can remember, from the time we were toddlers, my Father molested Sally and me, but not our brothers. I remember one night when I was about 5 years old, my Father came to my room and told me to come with him. He put me in bed with Mom and him, and told me to be quiet. I remember very vividly the red and white checkered curtains on their bedroom windows. I could hear the zoo animals next door. I was afraid to breathe, and I held my breath for as long as I could...while my Father fondled me. I was scared Mom would wake up.
Click Here to read on the TLC Website the rest of Debi's story which has never before been posted before. (NOTE: Names, dates & places have been changed, omitted or generalized)
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 23, 2013 14:56:58 GMT -5
I know of another sister worker who became pregnant. She was helping in the home of a couple where the wife had just delivered a new baby, and the man of the husband took a fancy to her. Ooops. They promptly married her up with a brother worker and they all lived happily ever after.
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2013 16:16:22 GMT -5
Is there anyone alive who can corroborate the facts of this story? |
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 23, 2013 16:23:39 GMT -5
Is there anyone alive who can corroborate the facts of this story? Probably. Which facts in particular are you interested in verifying? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 16:29:58 GMT -5
Is there anyone alive who can corroborate the facts of this story? Do "facts" need corroborated? |
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2013 16:36:20 GMT -5
Is there anyone alive who can corroborate the facts of this story? Probably. Which facts in particular are you interested in verifying? None in particular. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 23, 2013 16:57:52 GMT -5
Probably. Which facts in particular are you interested in verifying? None in particular. Then I dont understand your question... I have the entire letter by R&W Campbell...that they sent out to Elders...they are both alive. In fact, they paid for Debi to receive a university degree. Shannon and her parents are alive. The late Bob Daniels family can corroborate his actions...and have a copy of HB's letter to Bob. There are workers list showing HB was overseer at this time. Chester Ehrig is alive and willing...he was Debi's advocate at the meeting with F&Ws. I personally knew Debi, and she spent a week in my home visiting. I also personally knew her biological mothers mother and 4 siblings (went to mtg with some of them). Her family tree with many dates is available... I know of numerous people who were watching this situation when it came to a head with the workers... Dr. Baker has passed away...but he placed many babies with American professing parents who adopted them. We were close friends with a couple who adopted a son through Dr. B. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 17:25:49 GMT -5
Probably. Which facts in particular are you interested in verifying? None in particular. That strikes me as an odd question to ask for 'no particular' reason. |
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Post by What Hat on Jul 23, 2013 18:18:07 GMT -5
Then I dont understand your question... I have the entire letter by R&W Campbell...that they sent out to Elders...they are both alive. In fact, they paid for Debi to receive a university degree. Shannon and her parents are alive. The late Bob Daniels family can corroborate his actions...and have a copy of HB's letter to Bob. There are workers list showing HB was overseer at this time. Chester Ehrig is alive and willing...he was Debi's advocate at the meeting with F&Ws. I personally knew Debi, and she spent a week in my home visiting. I also personally knew her biological mothers mother and 4 siblings (went to mtg with some of them). Her family tree with many dates is available... I know of numerous people who were watching this situation when it came to a head with the workers... Dr. Baker has passed away...but he placed many babies with American professing parents who adopted them. We were close friends with a couple who adopted a son through Dr. B. This story is horrendous on several different levels. Who was Bob Daniels? He seemed to step into the breach and do the right thing, or try to. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 23, 2013 18:36:25 GMT -5
Bob Daniel's story is in the book Reflections, Chapter 10, Page 68...which is in google books.
Bob passed away in April, 2003.
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2013 18:46:37 GMT -5
That strikes me as an odd question to ask for 'no particular' reason. This story is not new, so I wondered why it was published shortly after her death. It may be that the woman didn't want it published while she lived, but was happy for it to be published after her death. Cherie has assured us that the facts have been verified so who am I to ask any more questions? |
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 23, 2013 18:52:21 GMT -5
She wrote it to be published and planned for it to be printed in book format--but she never got around to doing so, possibly due to the cost involved.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 23, 2013 19:32:35 GMT -5
R. & W. Campbell’s Letter
October 1, 1996
Dear Elders,
W. and I are writing to you because we are concerned and distressed about the way several issues are being handled by the Workers. We have included addresses of each one to whom we are sending this letter, and if you feel these issues are serious enough to be addressed you could network with one another. The three events that concern us are:
• How Peter Gordon's pedophilia has been dealt with by the Workers;
• Rumors circulating about Debi Gordon, Peter's adopted daughter;
• Disturbing interactions at an August meeting concerning Peter Gordon which John Sterling and Tom Hinkle attended.
Peter Gordon's Pedophilia
You may be aware that in the past year Peter Gordon, a Worker and later an Elder in the Truth, has admitted to molesting 2 of his adopted children and 2 other young girls, who are in the church, and a possible fifth victim, (not in the church), who chose suicide. Unfortunately, the original molestations fall outside the statute of limitations on all but two of the girls (the statute can only be used if it is proved that sexual abuse happened within the past seven years), and to date those two families have chosen not to prosecute Peter. These two girls were molested by Peter when they innocently accepted invitations to his home after Sunday morning meetings.
Peter Gordon is an admitted pedophile. If he had been convicted by law and then released from prison, he would be barred for life from being within 100 yards of children, and his neighbors would be notified that a child molester was living in the area. This month the State of California is looking at a law where pedophiles may voluntarily undergo chemical castration if they have been found guilty of sexual molestation once; if they have been found guilty twice they are required to undergo chemical or physical castration. That is how serious this behavior is viewed by the legal system of this country.
Ironically, today this man has been given the permission and encouraged to attend meetings and conventions --with the Workers' blessings--where he could have casual contact with young girls who may possibly end up becoming his future victims. This is of grave concern to us; instead of being a safe place for young girls to grow up and socialize, the church group is protecting a known pedophile. Our concern is not only for this case, should there be discrepancies with details, but for future cases, that they be dealt with in a safe manner.
You may be wondering if perhaps we are over-reacting. The fact is, repeat acts of pedophilia are an ongoing problem for men even after intensive individual and group therapy; statistics indicate that a scant 2% actually have a chance of recovery. After Debi blew the whistle on his sexual deviancy, Peter reluctantly underwent 6 months of individual counseling and eventually wrote several letters to Debi first demanding forgiveness and finally asking forgiveness. It is almost impossible for a perpetrator to recover without the entire family undergoing therapy. In this case, so far only Peter has seen a counselor. He does not see any need to make further amends, and wonders why Debi doesn't remember "all the good times we had instead of dwelling on the problems." A victim needs more than a few months to make up for 9 years of almost daily sexual abuse.
While the incest was occurring, everyone in the family participated to some degree in keeping it a secret. A confusing double standard permeated Debi's home life--on one hand she was a victim of Peter's repeated molestation, and on the other, she watched as Friends and Workers revered him as an Elder, a role model for others in the church "with an open home in the truest sense."
Prior to the age of 5 Debi has flash memories of being fondled and since the age of 5, Debi can vividly remember Peter's frequent visits to her room where he forced her to perform sexual acts until the age of 11, at which time he demanded sexual intercourse until the age of 14. Peter often locked himself in her sister’s bedroom until 11 p.m. while his wife waited in their bedroom. During all these years, Peter never wavered in partaking of the bread and wine and in prayer and testimony.
Consider the confusion and anger that this day-by-day onslaught would have on a young woman's body and spirit. When Debi was 12 years old, workers were finally made aware of what was happening in the Gordon home. The upshot was that the Workers were brought into the field who knew about the abuse and Peter was reprimanded.
Unfortunately, he continued to molest Debi--in fact, it began the very next day, with a threat to her safety if she didn't silently comply to his wishes. Peter often admitted to remorse after raping his daughter and asked her forgiveness...only to seek her out again and again when the sexual urge returned, a common pattern of sex offenders.
The Sister Workers who were sent to the field to monitor the situation were uneducated in the behavior of pedophiles and never once asked Debi what was going on. The situation continued with no protection from the Workers or Friends until Debi turned 14, when she finally found the courage to refuse to be touched by this man in any way. Peter stopped visiting Debi, but continued molesting her sister for some time; again, a common pattern of perpetrators.
Debi's Behavior
It is not uncommon for victims who have been molested to this degree to commit suicide. If they opt not to deal with these deadly memories by death they often become totally dysfunctional adults and often receive the label, "promiscuous." Once Debi found her voice, however, she poured her anger into warning others of her father's pedophila, asked that extensive counseling and an apology be forthcoming from her father, and asked that the Workers take a clear stand and not condone a child molester. Debi took action and hung posters at ***convention warning people that her father usually attends this convention and is a child molester. She also shared information with the Friends about her life and the injustice she and other young girls suffered at the hands of her father.
While Debi may be flailing and thrashing around a good deal, she is justifiably filled with rage for the hypocrisy and lies she has known in her family and in the church. What does Debi really want? She wants her father put in a position where he can never molest again. This has been her cry from the beginning and it is her cry today. Thanks to Debi's incensed and relentless cry, Peter Gordon has now been removed from his eldership by the Workers and no longer has meeting in his home, although he has been given Worker blessing to take part fully in meetings.
For some time W. and I met with Debi on Wednesday nights. Despite the fact that she was unable to take part in meetings since her marriage to a divorced man, she regularly attended with her two children, at great struggle. Karen Oakes told Debi several times that she had no chance of salvation as long as she remained married to her husband, so Debi took the advice to heart and, conscientiously wanting to do right by the Truth, divorced him.
At 1995 *** convention, after the divorce was final, Debi gave her testimony for the first time since her marriage/divorce, in her testimony she said she was glad to finally be free to have a place in the professing community. That afternoon, Joyce Szakacs came to Debi and said, "Don't you think you should wait to take part until you are told you can? I really think it would be better if you waited a year." Debi stood there stunned as Joyce walked off to the dining area without giving Debi a chance to reply. Debi had hoped finally to be supported and included in the group, and this was the response.
Although he refuses to talk with her directly, Harold Bennett and Joyce Szakacs have told lies that defame and discredit Debi. A few weeks ago at ***, Harold called a meeting with John Sterling, Tom Hinkle, D.O. and J & E. where he said Debi had written letters to two young brother Workers propositioning them to have sex with her. The attached letter is a copy of one of the letters Harold sent *** to substantiate his statement. As you can see in this case, Harold's claim about Debi is patently untrue; his remarks might even be considered slanderous in a court of law.
Regarding the second letter which has been conveniently destroyed, we can feel confident that it falls in the same category as the first. At ***, prior to the sex letter accusation, the O’s were approached by Joyce Szakacs. She warned them to quit talking about this issue, and at that time Joyce said "Why, Debi is no more than a prostitute!"
All or these statements can be substantiated. W. and I are upset that Workers in this church that we have loved and been a part of for 40 years are behaving in this manner. We are sorry that Debi has been treated in such a shameful and demeaning way when what she really needs is unconditional love, and help and support for the ordeal she has endured throughout her childhood. Debi has lived under a tremendous deception all of her life, and the time has come for honest communication among ourselves, not additional lies and abandonment.
August Meeting with the Workers
In August 1996, Debi requested a meeting with Harold Bennett and other Workers and Friends who were interested in discussing how to take protective measures so other young girls would not become victims of Peter Gordon. Debi had contacted Harold Bennett and specifically requested that he attend because of his position of authority among the church group in Oregon.
Instead, John Sterling and Tom Hinkle came, and early in the meeting indicated that they had "full authority" from Harold concerning the matters being discussed. Later, John and Tom refused to take any action in this matter because, they told the group, they "didn't have the authority" to do so. During the 4-1/2 hour meeting, their concern was mainly on supporting Peter Gordon's continued attendance at meetings (for his own salvation), and not on the lives this man has shattered by his repeated attacks of sexual abuse.
The meeting was conducted by a Chester Ehrig, whom Debi had asked to facilitate, since she felt too emotional about the discussion. The main focus of the meeting was to clarify Debi's case, and educate Workers and Friends on how to handle sexual abuse cases in the future so they could be expedited in a simple, direct manner so:
• meetings would not become polarized;
• wrongdoings would not be covered up;
• guilty/innocent issues would be handled by the law rather than by Workers;
• openness and clarification would be available to all (i.e., everyone in the field would be
• notified about the problem so they could protect their children and provide support;
• assistance to both the victim and sex abuser);
• and the victims would be given money, if needed, for therapy.
We were in this meeting, and W. and I now see that we have a responsibility to take action so the little children among us are safe and protected. With all the awareness there is in our country about incest, judgment, abuse and victimization, we believe it is important that everyone in the church adhere to the highest level of integrity.
A few days later, E.O. asked Harold Bennett why he didn't attend the meeting. He told her "Debi called me a liar, so I have refused to have anything to do with her or her case."
When the editor of The Cottage Grove Sentinel contacted Harold about Debi's sexual abuse allegations, he said, "That person has been causing us a lot of difficulties and we're not interested in anything connected to her. I wouldn't care to comment on it. She has a problem. We're not interested in any kind of article or any kind of association with her."
Please help us stop the judgment, rumors and indifference circulating among the Workers and Friends. Instead let us offer loving support and assistance for those whose lives have been, and are being, changed forever by senseless acts of child abuse. As a group, we need to demand accountability from our Workers and from one another on these kinds of issues.
We say our values are as close as possible to Christ's and we proclaim love to be our banner, yet we stand by as others participate in character assassination and slanderous remarks. Why is this behavior deemed acceptable? Would Christ treat His little children like this?
In writing this letter W. and I realize that we may be opening ourselves and others mentioned in the letter up to further disparagement and discreditation by Workers in an attempt to justify and explain away years of neglect of this issue and condoning of Peter Gordon's behavior, in particular. However, today we have decided to take this action because we feel this situation is serious enough to warrant the risk of lies and slander directed toward us.
Yours in Christ's love,
“R. & W. Campbell”
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2013 20:22:27 GMT -5
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Post by ts on Jul 23, 2013 20:49:47 GMT -5
So, something traumatic DID happen. Is CSA traumatic or has that not yet been established as a fact? |
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2013 21:20:04 GMT -5
So, something traumatic DID happen. Is CSA traumatic or has that not yet been established as a fact? It was claimed to have happened. Why would you (or anyone) be against fact checking? Memories get distorted. Why not verify the facts before mistakenly accusing people of things which are thought to be true but have, with the passage of time and the recalling/retelling, become something that is no longer reality. |
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Post by ts on Jul 23, 2013 21:35:56 GMT -5
So, something traumatic DID happen. Is CSA traumatic or has that not yet been established as a fact? It was claimed to have happened. Why would you (or anyone) be against fact checking? Memories get distorted. Why not verify the facts before mistakenly accusing people of things which are thought to be true but have, with the passage of time and the recalling/retelling, become something that is no longer reality. There are no facts because there is no way of knowing if you or everyone involved has had trauma and is unreliable in what they see or tell. You can't trust even what you see yourself. How can you then trust what someone else sees? "Trauma" is a relative thing and the same event affects people in different ways. Something that is innocuous to one may be traumatic to another. Something traumatic to one may not seem to have traumatized him because of his calm, measured and rational defense mechanism yet that is his way of covering up the trauma. Another person may be traumatized by something "small" and expresses himself emotionally about it. So, "trauma" is not a good word to use. It is not a factual word. It is an emotional word and not reliable. If some cannot handle all of life's experience in a calm and rational way, they are not reliable as witnesses. Since most people involved with exposing CSA (like those who were incensed by it and wrote letters) are obviously overcome with emotion about it, they are really unreliable. The alleged perpetrator seems the only calm one in the bunch. He would, therefore, be the only reliable witness. |
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Post by Greg on Jul 23, 2013 21:53:55 GMT -5
It was claimed to have happened. Why would you (or anyone) be against fact checking? Memories get distorted. Why not verify the facts before mistakenly accusing people of things which are thought to be true but have, with the passage of time and the recalling/retelling, become something that is no longer reality. There are no facts because there is no way of knowing if you or everyone involved has had trauma and is unreliable in what they see or tell. You can't trust even what you see yourself. How can you then trust what someone else sees? Much the same with your stories. |
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Post by faune on Jul 23, 2013 22:13:15 GMT -5
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Post by ts on Jul 23, 2013 22:41:09 GMT -5
There are no facts because there is no way of knowing if you or everyone involved has had trauma and is unreliable in what they see or tell. You can't trust even what you see yourself. How can you then trust what someone else sees? Much the same with your stories. My stories are as factual as all the other stories. There are no facts. Just experiences told from unreliable witnesses. What you just said about my stories is not a fact. Just your emotional reaction and it is unreliable. |
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Post by Greg on Jul 24, 2013 2:14:13 GMT -5
Much the same with your stories. My stories are as factual as all the other stories. There are no facts. Just experiences told from unreliable witnesses. What you just said about my stories is not a fact. Just your emotional reaction and it is unreliable. Is what you wrote an emotional reaction and unreliable? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2013 2:46:55 GMT -5
I think I am being misunderstood. "Facts" are actual facts which have been established either through corroboration or other means. Had fixit asked if the circumstances, account or allegations, been corroborated (or established); this would have been more appropriate in my view. You establish the truth or "facts" of a matter through this process. Using the term "facts" suggests it is the truth or has been established. |
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Post by jondough on Jul 24, 2013 8:56:50 GMT -5
I guess my first reaction to your post is; Did you verify that these articles were accurate? I see this happen all the time on this board. Someone needs an argument...you can always go to google and find an article that will support your argument, no matter what side of the fence you're on. Then upon skimming these articles, I have found everyone of them to be irrelevant to the subject at hand. The first article that you googled has to do with someone thinking they witnessed an event first hand when in reality they didn't witness it all, but actually someone had explained the event to them. This happens, I've actually witnessed someone doing this...but its not relevant to this case unless you think that someone actually explained this event to Debbie. The second one you googled, compares our memory to a telephone game where a story is told from one person to the next. They claim that our memory is distorted in the same way every time we recall it. So I guess all your childhood memories by the time you are your age Rational, are completely distorted to the point of completely in-accurate. Non of us better be telling any of our grand-kids (when we have them) any of our childhood memories....or at least let them know that what we are about to tell them is completely inaccurate. The third one you googled, was a car accident that happened in a very short period of time and obviously witnessed from distant, and different vantage points. Not relevant to this at all. The fourth one you googled,is the same as number two above. The 5th one you googled, has to do with suppressed memories, that are recalled at a later date - many times triggered by a single event. It also talks about false memories that have been implanted by someone asking about an event. This was a single event, not something that happened over a long period of time. The sixth one you googled, has to do with how a one term - single event type memory is less accurate than a repetitious type memory like learning spelling or math. Again, it has to do with a single event, not something that happened over an extended period of time. It explains how if you only recall part of the event, then the rest of it may get lost over time. This is just my response to your post. I hesitate to post this as you have way more time than most of us, and you will break this post up in little pieces and respond with more googles, or comments....until I finally have no more time. So I probably will only read what you respond with, but will not engage in a back and forth dialoged like you love to get into because I simply do not have the time. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2013 9:17:31 GMT -5
Jondough: Thanks for giving your report about the memory articles.
Debi personally told me what's in her story...the info is not second hand.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2013 9:18:15 GMT -5
I guess my first reaction to your post is; Did you verify that these stories were accurate? I see this happen all the time on this board. Someone needs an argument...you can always go to google and find an article that will support your argument, not matter what side of the fence you're on. Then upon skimming these articles, I have found everyone of them to be irrelevant to the subject at hand. The first article that you googled has to do with someone thinking they witnessed an event first hand when in reality they didn't witness it all, but actually someone had explained the event to them. This happens, I've actually witnessed someone doing this...but its not relevant to this case unless you think that someone actually explained this event to Debbie. The second one you googled, compares our memory to a telephone game where a story is told from one person to the next and claims that a memory is distorted every time we recall it. So I guess all your childhood memories by the time you are your age Rational, are completely distorted to the point of completely in-accurate. Non of us better be telling any of our grand-kids (when we have them) any of our childhood memories....or at least let them know that what we are about to tell them is completely inaccurate. The third one you googled, was a car accident that happened in a very short period of time and obviously witnessed from distant, and different vantage points. Not relevant to this at all. The fourth you googled, one is the same as number two above. The 5th you googled, has to do with suppressed memories, that are recalled at a later date. It also talks about false memories that have been implanted by someone asking about an event. This was a single event, not something that happened over a long period of time. The sixth one you googled, on has to do with how a one term - single event type memory is less accurate than a repetitious type memory like learning spelling or math. Again, it has to do with a single event, not something that happened over an extended period of time. This is just my response to your post. I hesitate to post this as you have way more time than most of us, and you will break this post up in little pieces and respond with more googles, or comments....until I finally have no more time. So I probably will only read what you respond with, but will not engage in a back and forth dialoged like you love to get into because I simply do not have the time. Rational is right if we are considering establishing as far as possible the actual truth of the events related in any given account. A process of examination has to be undertaken, if such a thing has not previously occurred. However, in most cases we do not have the tools or opportunity to subject such accounts to the highest level of scrutiny. But another way does exist for those who, like myself, view the account provided by Cherie as an example of some of the things which are alleged to happen in the sect, rather than being taken up with the integrity of the specific account. There are many other testimonies which have similar characteristics. These are provided by many different individuals, completely separate from the others through time and geography. Whilst each may still lack a proper scrutiny to establish their independent validity, the volume of the various accounts will collectively be such that they will establish the likelihood of the malpractices, rather than reject them. Ultimately each account really needs to be examined on its own merits if we are to rely on its specific details, but for the purposes of a collective sign post, a series of testimonies from different, independent sources, will establish this, even if they have not been thoroughly examined. This will establish likelihood, but not fact. |
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Post by ts on Jul 24, 2013 9:40:06 GMT -5
My stories are as factual as all the other stories. There are no facts. Just experiences told from unreliable witnesses. What you just said about my stories is not a fact. Just your emotional reaction and it is unreliable. Is what you wrote an emotional reaction and unreliable? You are just reacting emotionally to my reaction. What we are doing here is not real. There is no substance to it. It is all a dream...It is all a dream....What you see is not real. What you feel is not real....Your emotions are not real. What the victims have experienced is not real. They don't know what happened to them. They don't know who did what to them. It isn't real....it isn't real. The perpetrators are innocent..... There are no facts....there are no facts. Facts can never be established...it is all a dream..... |
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Post by ts on Jul 24, 2013 9:57:56 GMT -5
I guess my first reaction to your post is; Did you verify that these stories were accurate? I see this happen all the time on this board. Someone needs an argument...you can always go to google and find an article that will support your argument, not matter what side of the fence you're on. Then upon skimming these articles, I have found everyone of them to be irrelevant to the subject at hand. The first article that you googled has to do with someone thinking they witnessed an event first hand when in reality they didn't witness it all, but actually someone had explained the event to them. This happens, I've actually witnessed someone doing this...but its not relevant to this case unless you think that someone actually explained this event to Debbie. The second one you googled, compares our memory to a telephone game where a story is told from one person to the next and claims that a memory is distorted every time we recall it. So I guess all your childhood memories by the time you are your age Rational, are completely distorted to the point of completely in-accurate. Non of us better be telling any of our grand-kids (when we have them) any of our childhood memories....or at least let them know that what we are about to tell them is completely inaccurate. The third one you googled, was a car accident that happened in a very short period of time and obviously witnessed from distant, and different vantage points. Not relevant to this at all. The fourth you googled, one is the same as number two above. The 5th you googled, has to do with suppressed memories, that are recalled at a later date. It also talks about false memories that have been implanted by someone asking about an event. This was a single event, not something that happened over a long period of time. The sixth one you googled, on has to do with how a one term - single event type memory is less accurate than a repetitious type memory like learning spelling or math. Again, it has to do with a single event, not something that happened over an extended period of time. This is just my response to your post. I hesitate to post this as you have way more time than most of us, and you will break this post up in little pieces and respond with more googles, or comments....until I finally have no more time. So I probably will only read what you respond with, but will not engage in a back and forth dialoged like you love to get into because I simply do not have the time. Rational is right if we are considering establishing as far as possible the actual truth of the events related in any given account. A process of examination has to be undertaken, if such a thing has not previously occurred. However, in most cases we do not have the tools or opportunity to subject such accounts to the highest level of scrutiny. But another way does exist for those who, like myself, view the account provided by Cherie as an example of some of the things which are alleged to happen in the sect, rather than being taken up with the integrity of the specific account. There are many other testimonies which have similar characteristics. These are provided by many different individuals, completely separate from the others through time and geography. Whilst each may still lack a proper scrutiny to establish their independent validity, the volume of the various accounts will collectively be such that they will establish the likelihood of the malpractices, rather than reject them. Ultimately each account really needs to be examined on its own merits if we are to rely on its specific details, but for the purposes of a collective sign post, a series of testimonies from different, independent sources, will establish this, even if they have not been thoroughly examined. This will establish likelihood, but not fact. Ram and Jondough, You both have an obvious bias towards the victims and against the Workers. You are not impartial, therefore, your assessments are not reliable.....There are no facts...it is all a dream.....There are no facts.... |
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Post by mangochango on Jul 24, 2013 10:12:44 GMT -5
Often people's comments about things like this make me so sick. How do you think it makes victims feel when everyone is so concerned about "verifying facts" when a lot of facts are impossible to verify!! If there had been other people there when [name removed] raped me then it wouldn't have happened. While you're all too busy and taken up with "verifying facts" there are more innocent children and adults out there being abused by the very same people who've done it before. They are free because well after all there was no eye witness to say oh yes that child was molested,raped, abused etc. These facts are the hell we live with and will continue to live with...verified or not.
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