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Post by mangochango on Jul 25, 2013 11:33:47 GMT -5
I can't believe my eyes in what is written on this thread! Some of the smartest people in the world, by their own aspirations, pushing for verifiable "data"/facts! This is something that there are only 2 people involved in at a time...the victim and the perpetrator and we all should understand that the perp will not willingly tell on himself/herself to their criminal sexual behaviours. So then all we really have is the victim, who is probably the only source of verifiable facts.......Sheesh....how ridiculous can you get!
Thanks "Sharing the riches"...my thoughts exactly. I'm ashamed for quite a number of you here on the board. Your lack of sensitivity and compassion and true feeling for victims isn't surprising but it is sickening.
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Post by faune on Jul 25, 2013 11:33:58 GMT -5
In marketing there is a saying - "Sex Sells". I hate to say it but I agree with TS on this one. Sexual abuse is the minor part of abuse but the one that get the attention because anything of a sexual nature invokes more interest and more intense emotions. I don't think that sexual abuse is minor. I think it is major and affects people the rest of their lives in profound ways. I don't think it is necessarily more than other types of abuse, though. I am saying that there is an underlying deception that sets the stage for all types of abuse and cover up in the Meetings. I don't think it is a matter of "sex sells". I think it is a matter of how appalling sexual abuse is that it gets attention. The shame and guilt that is associated with sexual abuse is immense. It is secret and covered up by the leadership and shameful to the victim, who, in turn, tends to keep it covered up. It is equally appalling to blame the victim for covering up the sexual abuse the same as you would blame the perpetrator(or his buddies) for covering it up simply because he/she did not report it. That is heaping more shame and guilt on top of shame and guilt. ~ Thanks for clarifying your position for all of us here. I agree with your statement that there's an underlying deception that sets the stage for all types of abuse and cover-up within the Meetings. It reminds me of the scripture which says "a little leaven leaventh the whole lump," which Paul brings out in I Corinthians 5 concerning a heinous sexual offense not being eradicated early from the congregation's midst. I showed three different translations of this to convey how upset Paul was over this cover-up within the Corinthian Church and their deceptively treating it like it was no big deal. In addition, Paul states in his opening remark that even the pagans wouldn't condone such behavior within their midst. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205&version=NIV;AMP;KJV |
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Post by snow on Jul 25, 2013 11:36:48 GMT -5
Often people's comments about things like this make me so sick. How do you think it makes victims feel when everyone is so concerned about "verifying facts" when a lot of facts are impossible to verify!! Wouldn't the victims want the stories to be as accurate as possible? Checking the facts is in no way saying that they are in error.A rape kit would have removed all doubt. Educating people to take the steps necessary to have criminals convicted is what is required to keep criminals from harming others. There is a need to separate criminal acts from anything to do with religion or any spiritual behavior.And the way to prevent this is to come forward with facts that can be substantiated so the criminals will be removed and unable to harm others.The question is whether there is enough evidence to have the person removed from society. A child can say they were molested or an adult can say they were attacked but, realistically, without more than a story to tell it is doubtful that any legal action will be successful in bringing about change. This isn't a matter of hitting someone's knuckles with a ruler. It is a matter of potentially putting someone in prison for decades. I am certain it is frustrating for the victims. But it does point out the need to bring criminal acts to the authorities immediately. I agree with this. It is absolutely imperative to report immediately before showering or doing anything that would disturb the evidence of an assault! However, in cases of fondling where there is no 'evidence' left it becomes far more difficult to prove. It then becomes a he said, she said situation. In young children they may not know what even happened, just that it didn't feel good to them. It may have scared them and they may have been intimidated to not tell because someone they love would get hurt. That's why it's so important for parents to have an open communication with their children so they feel comfortable telling them anything that is troubling them. We know though, that isn't even a sure thing. It's not always black and white. Therefore it is important that people investigate the story. I know you believe that too, I'm just stating the obvious. When abuse happens it hurts when people act as though they don't believe you. It makes you feel so alone and helpless. You already feel violated and 'bad' and so the person handling the questioning, which is also very important, must be very careful not to make things worse. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 12:00:03 GMT -5
If you are not talking about titillation, then saying "sex sells" is the wrong phrase to use. Marketing companies use the phrase "sex sells" all the time and are always referring to titillation. That explains the bad reaction you got from your post. It has little to do with titillation. It is reaching out to what is a basic biological drive. Buy this new car and you too can win the woman of your dreams. No titillation. As Vance Packard (perhaps in The Hidden Persuaders) pointed out - you advertise the convertible with the blond in the passenger seat and the customer walks out with the sedan and his wife as the passenger. But the hook was set, their attention was grabbed, with the idea. Again, not titillation. (just to be sure - TITILLATE transitive verb - to excite pleasurably, arouse by stimulation.) Same thing. It's subliminal titillation which starts in the mind. Without looking at your numbers, we both know that the deaths from abuse is mostly not the sort of abuse we have been discussing so far.....it is mostly the abuse of neglect like leaving a child in a hot car. Is that the sort of heinous abuse you prefer to focus on a 2x2 site? How many 2x2 children die from heinous abuse of any kind? |
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Post by faune on Jul 25, 2013 12:00:42 GMT -5
This thread reminds me so much of a song by Josh Groban entitled, "You are Loved ~ Don't Give Up," which I feel applies to the victims of abuse or neglect of any kind, especially those who are abused by a trusted member of their family or religous figure in their lives.
You Are Loved (Don't Give Up)"
Don't give up
It's just the weight of the world
When your heart's heavy
I...I will lift it for you
Don't give up
Because you want to be heard
If silence keeps you
I...I will break it for you
Everybody wants to be understood
Well I can hear you
Everybody wants to be loved
Don't give up
Because you are loved
Don't give up
It's just the hurt that you hide
When you're lost inside
I...I will be there to find you
Don't give up
Because you want to burn bright
If darkness blinds you
I...I will shine to guide you
Everybody wants to be understood
Well I can hear you
Everybody wants to be loved
Don't give up
Because you are loved
You are loved
Don't give up
It's just the weight of the world
Don't give up
Every one needs to be heard
You are loved
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 12:00:56 GMT -5
Sexual abuse is the minor part of abuse but the one that get the attention because anything of a sexual nature invokes more interest and more intense emotions. I don't think that sexual abuse is minor. Neither do I and I have not said it was. I was referring to the data that points out that out of all child abuse sexual abuse accounts for only 10% - a minor part of abuse. In your mind, what makes it more appalling than scalding a child repeatedly with boiling water? Or hitting and punching a child until it dies? It is not a matter of blame. Times are changing. Historically sexual abuse was swept under the rug everywhere. Other types of abuse were attributed to not sparing the rod. It is not a matter of placing blame when it is pointed out that the way to prevent serial abusers, abusers of any kind, is to report them to the authorities. Incidents that occurred decades ago have to be viewed in the light of the times when they happened but they can also provide valuable clues as to how to change while moving forward. Realistically, without legal action or a confession there is little that can be done about a criminal who has committed a crime after the statute of limitation has expired. Educating people regarding the importance of taking this step immediately rather than decades later in no way blames any victim for the actions they took at the time. |
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 12:18:26 GMT -5
Why does it get the most attention? Because it is a crime against helpless children for one thing, it's not even close to an equal power situation so just in that alone, it's heinous. And other types of abuse are not against helpless children? A full grown adult is somehow close in power to a 4 year old?So you would help a child faced with CSA but not other types of abuse? The child facing physical and/or emotional abuse does not have the rest of their life to live? Are children blameless only for CSA? This is indeed true of abuse. Even those abuses that result in maiming or death? |
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 12:34:11 GMT -5
Same thing. It's subliminal titillation which starts in the mind. Perhaps the promise of titillation. You are right. Only about 1 child a day dies from physical abuse alone. I would like to focus on any type of child abuse, whether it involves members of the F&W or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 12:37:12 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 12:43:19 GMT -5
Same thing. It's subliminal titillation which starts in the mind. Perhaps the promise of titillation. You are right. Only about 1 child a day dies from physical abuse alone. I would like to focus on any type of child abuse, whether it involves members of the F&W or not. I think that's great! Go for it! |
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Post by ts on Jul 25, 2013 12:49:25 GMT -5
"So, you got sexually abused as a child. At least you are alive. Quit complaining."
That is how it comes across when CSA is minimized as "minor" simply because, statistically, there is less of it and it doesn't kill you.
Simply barbaric reasoning.
Just goes to show how the elimination of emotion is NOT an advancement in human social skills.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 12:50:09 GMT -5
From my experiences with Barry Barkley and two other sister workers, abuse of any kind is not looked on as a problem to be dealt with by the workers or the elder in the meeting. I was told by one sister worker when we were dealing with abuse in our meeting. That I could not save all children. I reminded her that I only knew these children because they went to our meeting. This was not about all the children in the world. If every worker and friend cared about every adult and child in their meeting and area like they SHOULD. We would not be pointing fingers and having this discussion.
WE ALL HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE WELFARE OF OTHERS.
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Post by ts on Jul 25, 2013 13:04:10 GMT -5
Wouldn't the victims want the stories to be as accurate as possible? Checking the facts is in no way saying that they are in error.A rape kit would have removed all doubt. Educating people to take the steps necessary to have criminals convicted is what is required to keep criminals from harming others. There is a need to separate criminal acts from anything to do with religion or any spiritual behavior.And the way to prevent this is to come forward with facts that can be substantiated so the criminals will be removed and unable to harm others.The question is whether there is enough evidence to have the person removed from society. A child can say they were molested or an adult can say they were attacked but, realistically, without more than a story to tell it is doubtful that any legal action will be successful in bringing about change. This isn't a matter of hitting someone's knuckles with a ruler. It is a matter of potentially putting someone in prison for decades. I am certain it is frustrating for the victims. But it does point out the need to bring criminal acts to the authorities immediately. I agree with this. It is absolutely imperative to report immediately before showering or doing anything that would disturb the evidence of an assault! However, in cases of fondling where there is no 'evidence' left it becomes far more difficult to prove. It then becomes a he said, she said situation. In young children they may not know what even happened, just that it didn't feel good to them. It may have scared them and they may have been intimidated to not tell because someone they love would get hurt. That's why it's so important for parents to have an open communication with their children so they feel comfortable telling them anything that is troubling them. We know though, that isn't even a sure thing. It's not always black and white. Therefore it is important that people investigate the story. I know you believe that too, I'm just stating the obvious. When abuse happens it hurts when people act as though they don't believe you. It makes you feel so alone and helpless. You already feel violated and 'bad' and so the person handling the questioning, which is also very important, must be very careful not to make things worse. In the case of [name removed], he has had SEVERAL "he said/she said" incidents in his career and some BEFORE the alleged rape and after. What I am emphasizing is that the Workers do NOT need to hold their "volunteers" to the same degree of proof as the law or a trial by jury. That is simply ridiculous. If they had any spiritual discernment at all and any care for the people they are looking after, they would simply kick the dude(or dudes or dudettes) out of the Work. Read the account of the meeting between [removed], BB, the victim(of a non illegal questionable sexual talk) and you will get the gist of what I am talking about. The victim told all the sexual questions that [removed] asked and [removed] flatly denied that he has EVER talked that way to anyone. He then, unexplicably, says, "You forgot that I asked you about your 'orgasm' ". There was a stunned silence in the room as [removed] had just admitted to what he had denied. Bary Barkley, an intelligent man, SHOULD have said, "that's it, dude, you are outta here." Instead he sat there like a stone and said nothing...as if [removed] had said nothing at all. [removed] said something like "I don't know why I said that. I read that word somewhere and I don't know what it means...I don't even know if I pronounced it right"....[removed] is a VERY intelligent person, mind you. The victim said, "that is right. You DID ask about orgasm and, yes, you pronounced it just right." This is what I am talking about an environment of abuse and cover up. |
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Post by JO on Jul 25, 2013 13:34:21 GMT -5
Given that 4 children, on average, die every day in the US from abuse it is difficult to see sexual abuse as "..most heinous and damaging...". I would bet that many more than four Americans per day die of child sexual abuse. CSA often leads to severe sexual relationship issues, low self esteem, depression, drug and alcohol abuse, promiscuity, prostitution, suicide, prison. When using statistics remember that CSA is extremely difficult for a victim to report. |
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Post by ts on Jul 25, 2013 13:38:26 GMT -5
From my experiences with Barry Barkley and two other sister workers, abuse of any kind is not looked on as a problem to be dealt with by the workers or the elder in the meeting. I was told by one sister worker when we were dealing with abuse in our meeting. That I could not save all children. I reminded her that I only knew these children because they went to our meeting. This was not about all the children in the world. If every worker and friend cared about every adult and child in their meeting and area like they SHOULD. We would not be pointing fingers and having this discussion. WE ALL HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE WELFARE OF OTHERS. They don't "deal" with abuse. They cover it up quietly and speak of their actions in the passive voice so no one person is known to take responsibility. I was in a mission training camp and one of the things they emphatically emphasized was that if there was ANY sort of sexual abuse you were out and if appropriate there would be legal action taken. If the Workers were not so exclusive, they could learn from other non-denominational mission groups. |
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 13:39:23 GMT -5
I can't believe my eyes in what is written on this thread! Some of the smartest people in the world, by their own aspirations, pushing for verifiable "data"/facts! This is something that there are only 2 people involved in at a time...the victim and the perpetrator and we all should understand that the perp will not willingly tell on himself/herself to their criminal sexual behaviours. So then all we really have is the victim, who is probably the only source of verifiable facts.......Sheesh....how ridiculous can you get! Some criminals, when confronted, do admit to their crimes. While there may only be two present at the time of the crime, many criminals are convicted when brought to trial. But in any case, there is a danger in not investigating the facts. There is the well documented case of a woman accusing a man of rape which resulted in him spending 11 years in prison. While it would be wonderful is the victim's word could be accepted without question, the risk for error is too great. The woman's memory was simply wrong. Questioning has nothing to do with believing or feeling for the victims. While it would be politically correct to say "Oh yes, we believe your story without question" that does not benefit anyone if someone is convicted in error. Worse if the real criminal goes free. |
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 13:42:32 GMT -5
Given that 4 children, on average, die every day in the US from abuse it is difficult to see sexual abuse as "..most heinous and damaging...". I would bet that many more than four Americans per day die of child sexual abuse. And you base this feeling on what? So does any type of abuse. True. And it is also difficult for a victim to report that her parents are locking them in closets or striking them with objects. |
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 13:46:45 GMT -5
"So, you got sexually abused as a child. At least you are alive. Quit complaining." That is how it comes across when CSA is minimized as "minor" simply because, statistically, there is less of it and it doesn't kill you. Simply barbaric reasoning. Just goes to show how the elimination of emotion is NOT an advancement in human social skills. Keep re-reading. It is not minor. It is a minor part of abuse. You can continue to post twisted versions of what I posted but it does not change reality. CSA was not minimized. It was simply stated as the data shows. Of all abuse, sexual abuse occurs about 10% of the time. |
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 13:56:38 GMT -5
I don't want to answer for rational, but I think when he says "minor", he is referring to frequency. He contends that CSA is 10% of all abuses so is therefore a "minor part of abuse". On a numbers basis, there is truth to that. On a damage basis, it is so far wrong that it is not even on the charts. What he is saying something like this: "since murder is only 10% of all illegal offenses and the other 90% is Jaywalking, then murder is a minor part of illegal activity". That's what makes his statement absurd in spite of it being numerically correct. Ram and TS promote a similar idea. You were good for a while but then strayed off the road. I am not comparing murder to jaywalking. Consider CSA. It could be showing children pornographic photos. It could be coitus. It could be a case of frottage. Compare that to being struck with a belt. Tied behind a radiator. Punched and kicked. Forced to go without food for days. The levels of damage caused by all types of abuse is comparable. Can anyone say that being forced to touch an adult's genitals is worse or more damaging that being kicked and having broken ribs? |
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Post by snow on Jul 25, 2013 14:01:13 GMT -5
I can't believe my eyes in what is written on this thread! Some of the smartest people in the world, by their own aspirations, pushing for verifiable "data"/facts! This is something that there are only 2 people involved in at a time...the victim and the perpetrator and we all should understand that the perp will not willingly tell on himself/herself to their criminal sexual behaviours. So then all we really have is the victim, who is probably the only source of verifiable facts.......Sheesh....how ridiculous can you get! Some criminals, when confronted, do admit to their crimes. While there may only be two present at the time of the crime, many criminals are convicted when brought to trial. But in any case, there is a danger in not investigating the facts. There is the well documented case of a woman accusing a man of rape which resulted in him spending 11 years in prison. While it would be wonderful is the victim's word could be accepted without question, the risk for error is too great. The woman's memory was simply wrong. Questioning has nothing to do with believing or feeling for the victims. While it would be politically correct to say "Oh yes, we believe your story without question" that does not benefit anyone if someone is convicted in error. Worse if the real criminal goes free. Yes, the conviction of someone innocent and the criminal going free are things that we don't want to see. However, in my case I definitely knew who my rapist was. I could have easily picked him out of a line up. I think most people do know. The people assaulted by [removed] definitely knew their abuser. The question then would not be the criminal going free because of wrong identification. While it does happen that someone can be accused and be innocent, I don't think it is the norm. I didn't report mine. Many do not. The reason was I didn't want to face what I knew would happen in court. As important as it is for it to be determined that the abuser is not innocent, it is very hard for the survivor of sexual assault to relive the incident, have such personal questions asked of them, and have their story questioned. It's like being attacked all over again in a sense. I wished for years afterwards that I had charged the guy. All I could think about was how many had he done this to before me and possibly after me too. In my defense, I was 17, young, scared and naive. But I still should have. So it is my belief that for an assaulted person it would be the hardest thing to do, telling someone. It is a violent act that makes you scared it could happen again and if they got off, they could come back for revenge because you turned them in. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 14:17:10 GMT -5
I don't want to answer for rational, but I think when he says "minor", he is referring to frequency. He contends that CSA is 10% of all abuses so is therefore a "minor part of abuse". On a numbers basis, there is truth to that. On a damage basis, it is so far wrong that it is not even on the charts. What he is saying something like this: "since murder is only 10% of all illegal offenses and the other 90% is Jaywalking, then murder is a minor part of illegal activity". That's what makes his statement absurd in spite of it being numerically correct. Ram and TS promote a similar idea. You were good for a while but then strayed off the road. I am not comparing murder to jaywalking. Consider CSA. It could be showing children pornographic photos. It could be coitus. It could be a case of frottage. Compare that to being struck with a belt. Tied behind a radiator. Punched and kicked. Forced to go without food for days. The levels of damage caused by all types of abuse is comparable. Can anyone say that being forced to touch an adult's genitals is worse or more damaging that being kicked and having broken ribs? The problem with your analysis that that you are on one hand claiming that 90% of abuse is non-CSA, then you are characterizing that 90% with extreme levels of abuse and comparing it with CSA. The truth is, that 90% number you keep using is mostly low level abuse which does not compare to CSA. Here is another way of looking at it for your consideration: if there are 10X the number of non-CSA abuses out there than CSA abuses, then why do we have 10X the complaints about CSA? There is are reasons for that: extent of damages for one. Believe me, if there was a lot of highly damaging non-CSA out there among 2x2's, we would be hearing all about it because it plays into the anti-2x2 agenda as well so such incidences would be well documented. Yet....near (but not total) silence on the issue.....no radiators, no starvation, and no recent belts. |
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2013 14:25:35 GMT -5
The problem with your analysis that that you are on one hand claiming that 90% of abuse is non-CSA, then you are characterizing that 90% with extreme levels of abuse and comparing it with CSA. The truth is, that 90% number you keep using is mostly low level abuse which does not compare to CSA. What is "low level" abuse? Only 1 rib broken? Only 2 meals missed? You do not see any difference in the levels of CSA? We don't. The number comes from the total number of complaints received and the number of them that were sexual abuse. Out of the approx. 800,000 complaints there were about 80,000 complaints that were sexual abuse. No doubt under reported on both sides. Did you read Jean's story. Or the one posted at the start of this list? The abuse was not just sexual abuse. And you are right, only a few have been reported. But the stories that have been written certainly describe the lay of the land in that regard. |
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Post by faune on Jul 25, 2013 14:42:45 GMT -5
Some criminals, when confronted, do admit to their crimes. While there may only be two present at the time of the crime, many criminals are convicted when brought to trial. But in any case, there is a danger in not investigating the facts. There is the well documented case of a woman accusing a man of rape which resulted in him spending 11 years in prison. While it would be wonderful is the victim's word could be accepted without question, the risk for error is too great. The woman's memory was simply wrong. Questioning has nothing to do with believing or feeling for the victims. While it would be politically correct to say "Oh yes, we believe your story without question" that does not benefit anyone if someone is convicted in error. Worse if the real criminal goes free. Yes, the conviction of someone innocent and the criminal going free are things that we don't want to see. However, in my case I definitely knew who my rapist was. I could have easily picked him out of a line up. I think most people do know. The people assaulted by [removed] definitely knew their abuser. The question then would not be the criminal going free because of wrong identification. While it does happen that someone can be accused and be innocent, I don't think it is the norm. I didn't report mine. Many do not. The reason was I didn't want to face what I knew would happen in court. As important as it is for it to be determined that the abuser is not innocent, it is very hard for the survivor of sexual assault to relive the incident, have such personal questions asked of them, and have their story questioned. It's like being attacked all over again in a sense. I wished for years afterwards that I had charged the guy. All I could think about was how many had he done this to before me and possibly after me too. In my defense, I was 17, young, scared and naive. But I still should have. So it is my belief that for an assaulted person it would be the hardest thing to do, telling someone. It is a violent act that makes you scared it could happen again and if they got off, they could come back for revenge because you turned them in. ~ You were a young teen when it occurred and no doubt did what most kids do even today because of public shame associated with such an act of violence. However, [removed] was not only a worker, but an overseer, who had power over his staff and took advantage of his place and authority, much like a boss within a workplace. The sister worker's employment and place in the work stood in the balance as well as her reputation among the friends, if a charge was brought against an overseer. Also, it appears he was sure to stress that point with his victim to intimidate her and keep her from reporting him. This type of behavior is typical of people lacking in a sense of morality among us.  TS shared and I agree...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 14:49:13 GMT -5
The problem with your analysis that that you are on one hand claiming that 90% of abuse is non-CSA, then you are characterizing that 90% with extreme levels of abuse and comparing it with CSA. The truth is, that 90% number you keep using is mostly low level abuse which does not compare to CSA. What is "low level" abuse? Only 1 rib broken? Only 2 meals missed? You do not see any difference in the levels of CSA? Examples of low levels of abuse: corporal punishment sending a kid off to his room with no supper with no Nintendo. telling a kid they will never be able to do something that may be within their ability excessive teasing of a child excessive tickling of a child temporary withdrawal of affection High level of abuse: Force a child to have sex with customers 15 times per day Force a child to have sex with a parent Causing fear of death through physical force I do see a difference in severity and damages. Yet your 90% figures are mostly low level abuse. There is nowhere near 80,000 complaints of CSA among the F&Ws. [/quote] You can be sure that where there is sexual abuse there are other forms of abuse, particularly emotional abuse to make the victim compliant. You got that right. |
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Post by faune on Jul 25, 2013 15:14:20 GMT -5
Wouldn't the victims want the stories to be as accurate as possible? Checking the facts is in no way saying that they are in error.A rape kit would have removed all doubt. Educating people to take the steps necessary to have criminals convicted is what is required to keep criminals from harming others. There is a need to separate criminal acts from anything to do with religion or any spiritual behavior.And the way to prevent this is to come forward with facts that can be substantiated so the criminals will be removed and unable to harm others.The question is whether there is enough evidence to have the person removed from society. A child can say they were molested or an adult can say they were attacked but, realistically, without more than a story to tell it is doubtful that any legal action will be successful in bringing about change. This isn't a matter of hitting someone's knuckles with a ruler. It is a matter of potentially putting someone in prison for decades. I am certain it is frustrating for the victims. But it does point out the need to bring criminal acts to the authorities immediately. I agree with this. It is absolutely imperative to report immediately before showering or doing anything that would disturb the evidence of an assault! However, in cases of fondling where there is no 'evidence' left it becomes far more difficult to prove. It then becomes a he said, she said situation. In young children they may not know what even happened, just that it didn't feel good to them. It may have scared them and they may have been intimidated to not tell because someone they love would get hurt. That's why it's so important for parents to have an open communication with their children so they feel comfortable telling them anything that is troubling them. We know though, that isn't even a sure thing. It's not always black and white. Therefore it is important that people investigate the story. I know you believe that too, I'm just stating the obvious. When abuse happens it hurts when people act as though they don't believe you. It makes you feel so alone and helpless. You already feel violated and 'bad' and so the person handling the questioning, which is also very important, must be very careful not to make things worse. What is truly sad is that parents who abuse their young children will usually use such an argument with them as to make them feel ashamed for the incident and to justify future CSA. It just makes you wonder how any human being can be so callous and indifferent about such a heinous crime against a child and especially their own flesh and blood. Such narcissistic parents obviously view their children more as a personal possession they can use at will rather than as a person with feelings and human emotions?  |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 25, 2013 15:37:31 GMT -5
What an absurd notion!! Who other than some really sick pervert would find cases of CSA "more intriguing"? Human beings. It is the same basic need people have to look at serious car accidents when they drive by. Why people read about the details of what happened to the three women who were held captive in Ohio. A man held 3 women captive for many years and physically, psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abused them regularly. While that does say what happened anyone who read about it, and it was a major news story, wanted ,and got, many more details than that. Why did journalists write about the details? Why do publishers put out 'special' editions covering these events? Because it sells. And I am sitting here glued to the TV waiting for the succulent sexual details to come pouring out of the screen. Yes, I'm interested, but it doesn't give me an erection!!!!!I don't recall saying it was about sex. But there are times when it is about sex which is why many states include phrases like "...for the purpose of gratifying his or her lust,..." in the statutes to cover the cases when the act is the result of biological urge. I know you didn't say it was about sex -- I just added that. But you did said people bought it for the sex. Now that is a really critical and defining distinction to be made!!! And of course the statutes say "for gratification" -- because that's what is considered PERVERTED and ILLEGAL about the case. By the way, I had a field trip to court one day with two of my students. It turned out there were no other spectators in the courtroom. There were 21 cases being addressed, and 14 of them were sexual misdemeanor cases. No one was beating down the doors waiting to see it.
Do you find it exciting? Why do you think anyone finds it exciting? I think I said that it invokes more interest and intense emotion. I know that when dealing with adults who had abused children I had to struggle to control my feelings towards the criminals. I told you why they find it exciting -- they're SICK PERVERTS. Is there nothing else on the news that invokes interest and intense emotion -- like for example 911. Do you not realize that there are sick perverts who get an erection over that kind of stuff. I know what you should be saying -- we've got a lot of sick perverts in this society, and a lot of people are fascinated by them. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 25, 2013 15:53:40 GMT -5
It is the epitome of an imbalance of power. And physical abuse is not? abuse is about an imbalance of power. But how many EPITOMES do you think there can be? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 25, 2013 16:01:15 GMT -5
In the main all forms of abuse spring out of a desire to control or have power over another. With sexual abuses there is obviously the clear addition of a lustful element. I am with rational in that ALL forms of abuse need to be tackled, especially when there are in certain areas common elements and backgrounds. One example of this is spiritual abuse which certainly originates from power and control over others and is claimed to have links to other forms of abuse including physical abuse and csa. It makes sense to get at the heart of the problems. However, there IS a difference between sexual abuses and other forms of abuse. Most forms of physical abuse and neglect, etc, have benign backgrounds in discipline, teaching and order, etc., e.g. parent chastising child, or teacher same with pupil. These were all very much accepted in the past and provided the punishment was light and no harm was caused to the child, it was regarded as good for the development of the child and was therefore good practice and common sense. Many forms of physical abuse and neglect stemmed from excessive use of these disciplinary measures, especially where the administer was weak and ineffective and his or her actions were having little effect, hence the increase in punishment through desperation etc. I know the whole matter is far more complex than this illustration and it would be difficult to interpret discipline into many forms or occasions of physical abuse or neglect, but the acceptable background in reasonable measure was there. With sexual abuses there is no justification or excuse in disciplinary measures. They are about using power and control over an individual as an avenue to satisfy lust. Physical abuse and neglect may indeed be similar in that power and control are used as avenues for sadism but not sexual lust? Ultimately all forms of abuse can and do produce similar effects on victims according to circumstances, nature of the victim, severity and duration of the acts, etc. Again, many forms of physical abuse and neglect arise out of excessive disciplinary measures, which in former times were more socially acceptable provided they did not cross a certain threshold. They were considered justifiable and necessary. This has never been the case with sexual abuses. ram, perhaps you or someone else with experience in law enforcement could answer this: what is to be hoped for stopping CSA by chemical castration, such as in the case of PG? To me, PG is more about being in control of others, dominating them, making them submissive to him so that he can exploit them. This is more about a mental head-game than anything, so why pretend it's about sexual urges? You are absolutely right. Castration (by any means) is all about vengeance and nothing about prevention. It just doesn't work that way. |
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