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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2013 22:18:41 GMT -5
Thats an easy question. When one thinks that they are the ONLY true way. Then when someone leaves their organization, they are also turning their back on Christ, God, and his family. They are no longer part of the family. You would think that the parable of the lost sheep, or even the lost coin would then come into affect, but I guess they forget about that. Luke 15:3 ; 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?Instead, they figure they will ignore it until it finds them again. They take on the thinking of the protocol's son. They will receive them with open arms when they come home. Just a very wrong way of thinking that exclusiveness breeds. Like I've told you. I've been guilty of not making effort to make contact with some that have left. I am not exclusive at all. It would mainly do with just being busy, and involved with my own immediate family. I do speak to some that I grew up with and were close to, on the phone periodically. Always talk about getting together. Tell them to call me when they want to get together, but it never seems to happen due to our busy lives. Unless they were close though, I really don't talk to them at all. But, for the most part, I didn't really do anything with them outside of meeting even when they were going. Are there any that you have made contact with that seems to shun you? Are there any that were close friends that you did a lot with outside of meetings, but now they seem to not be interested in getting together? Why did you decide to quit? Did it happen slowly over time? Was it one significant event? Did you find something you felt was better for you? Do you go to any churches now and if so, how are they in comparison? jd, I enjoyed some close (or I thought they were close) friendships with others in the fellowship. When I left, they basically became "too busy" to get together. Not only was it obvious but it was almost ridiculous. My decision to leave was a result of several years of prayer and observation. And it might be interesting for you to note that I was unaware of ANY information on the internet. My heart told me things that no other individual needed to say. I also made a conscious effort to read my bible without any outside influence. All I wanted to know was "What was the purpose of Christ's message?" It is still my quest to understand it. I see things quite differently now than I did when I was entrenched in the 2x2 mindset. I'm thankful daily that I had the strength to do what the spirit was prompting me to do. I feel like a pilgrim and it's an enjoyable journey. My only disappointment is that many I still love are still trapped and view those of us who are exes as something not to be touched. Sure, many enjoy fellowship. Fellowship can be enjoyed anywhere, anytime and with anyone! It is my choice not to attend any organized church. I much prefer visits with one or two, or a few others. I do not believe that Christ came to establish rituals but I feel He came to bring us a very important message - a message of love and harmony. I have attended several churches over the past 3 and a half years and I must conclude that all are much the same (including the 2x2s). Seems that they are all so busy keeping themselves bonded through organization structure instead of a connection of the heart. Some are more legalistic than others (2x2s are among that group). All have their issues. Most do not shun members who have chosen to leave and will remain friends with former members. 2x2s are as guilty as Amish or other closed groups of shunning. It's simply done differently. jd, I enjoyed some close (or I thought they were close) friendships with others in the fellowship. When I left, they basically became "too busy" to get together. Not only was it obvious but it was almost ridiculous.My decision to leave was a result of several years of prayer and observation. And it might be interesting for you to note that I was unaware of ANY information on the internet. My heart told me things that no other individual needed to say. I also made a conscious effort to read my bible without any outside influence. All I wanted to know was "What was the purpose of Christ's message?" It is still my quest to understand it. I see things quite differently now than I did when I was entrenched in the 2x2 mindset. I'm thankful daily that I had the strength to do what the spirit was prompting me to do. I feel like a pilgrim and it's an enjoyable journey. My only disappointment is that many I still love are still trapped and view those of us who are exes as something not to be touched. Sure, many enjoy fellowship. Fellowship can be enjoyed anywhere, anytime and with anyone! It is my choice not to attend any organized church. I much prefer visits with one or two, or a few others. I do not believe that Christ came to establish rituals but I feel He came to bring us a very important message - a message of love and harmony. I have attended several churches over the past 3 and a half years and I must conclude that all are much the same (including the 2x2s). Seems that they are all so busy keeping themselves bonded through organization structure instead of a connection of the heart. Some are more legalistic than others (2x2s are among that group). All have their issues. Most do not shun members who have chosen to leave and will remain friends with former members. 2x2s are as guilty as Amish or other closed groups of shunning. It's simply done differently. You said:"I enjoyed some close (or I thought they were close) friendships with others in the fellowship. When I left, they basically became "too busy" to get together. Not only was it obvious but it was almost ridiculous."
Not really "too busy"- You should know being in the "TRUTH".
I wonder now how I ever had time for anything else! You went to Sunday morning meeting,and some places Sunday evening meetings, Wed. evening meetings, all of which in the intervening times you had to read the bible so you would have something to say in the meetings! To also pray! Then in between times if there were gospel meetings anywhere within 50 miles (or so it seemed) you went to those also!
One of the most wonderful things I enjoyed on leaving was I had control of my private time! I loved it & still do!
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Post by ts on Jul 11, 2013 22:44:21 GMT -5
It is not about doing nothing. It is about believing God's word. Where does God commend doing nothing? I have some friends who have done some really radical things because God told them to. On a financial and family level, these things looked completely irresponsible. Yet, they learned that they can trust God and their relationship with God grew in very real ways. Miracles happened and lives were touched as a result.
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Post by snow on Jul 12, 2013 10:27:06 GMT -5
Okay, we obviously don't agree on this one. So be it. I just feel it's important to pull my weight and be in the position where I can help others. After all those who help you, that you attribute to being God's providing, had to do enough to have enough to share with you in the first place. We don't agree because I have seen the "rat race" side of things and that does not fit with scripture. Jesus presented a whole new paradigm that was as radical in his day as it is now. In fact, it was radical in Moses' day when God told them to rest one day a week and one year in seven and they would be just fine and prosper. Instead they chose the rat race mentality and did not trust his word on that one. It led them into captivity in babylon and all that goes with that. I think Babylon is closer to where we are now than what God has planned for us when we trust him and he is the provider. It is not about doing nothing. It is about believing God's word. I have more to share now than I ever have had. I can give everything with nothing coming in because I know that God is my provider. I can tell people I give to that God is my provider and they can grow in faith. If God didn't actually provide for me, then it would be vain words. If everyone didn't work, this world would be a very interesting place. I believe we all must contribute or we wouldn't have anything at all. Go into the wilds for a year on your own and find out just how much you need to do to stay alive then tell me that you don't need to do anything. You can't just sit in the middle of no where and expect you meal to be placed in front of you cooked. You need to get out there and hunt, clean and cook it yourself. That's just common sense.
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Post by ts on Jul 12, 2013 11:08:06 GMT -5
We don't agree because I have seen the "rat race" side of things and that does not fit with scripture. Jesus presented a whole new paradigm that was as radical in his day as it is now. In fact, it was radical in Moses' day when God told them to rest one day a week and one year in seven and they would be just fine and prosper. Instead they chose the rat race mentality and did not trust his word on that one. It led them into captivity in babylon and all that goes with that. I think Babylon is closer to where we are now than what God has planned for us when we trust him and he is the provider. It is not about doing nothing. It is about believing God's word. I have more to share now than I ever have had. I can give everything with nothing coming in because I know that God is my provider. I can tell people I give to that God is my provider and they can grow in faith. If God didn't actually provide for me, then it would be vain words. If everyone didn't work, this world would be a very interesting place. I believe we all must contribute or we wouldn't have anything at all. Go into the wilds for a year on your own and find out just how much you need to do to stay alive then tell me that you don't need to do anything. You can't just sit in the middle of no where and expect you meal to be placed in front of you cooked. You need to get out there and hunt, clean and cook it yourself. That's just common sense. This is where we are going to differ. I am not advocating not working. I am advocating seeking the kingdom of God first. I am guessing that you have never really experienced God's favour. When we have the favour of God and man, our identity is not in what we can accomplish. Our identity is not in how much we can pull our weight and how much others do not. We simply have favour and doors open for us. I have a friend who is a responsible kind of guy. He has a business and a family and employees. Recently God told him to give away all the money he had. He had bills due and not paying the bills would have shut him down. But he gave everything away. The story after that how God opened doors for him is just miraculous. It is a testimony. Like I said, I am not against working. Trusting God is a deliberate act. There are many people in this world who are hungry for the Holy Spirit and we are the ones who are to carry the Holy Spirit. We get that by being in God's presence and being filled. It is in that space that we can do miracles. What if everywhere we went we healed someone. How much resources would that free up in this world? How much favour would that gain us? Even if there were no healing done, isn't a peaceful presence of a supernatural and real God a welcomed site for many? How many have not experienced that and turned to not believing in God? They have not experienced that because too many Christians have given up on it and shown only carnal good works and carnal self interest.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 12, 2013 14:38:15 GMT -5
ts, - you once asked if anyone could give you an explanation for your experience with bed bugs other than it being a miracle & due to your prayer being answered. I was telling my son about your post & he gave me this answer.
This is from wiki:
Feeding habits
Bed bugs are obligatory hematophagous (bloodsucking) insects. Most species feed on humans only when other prey are unavailable.[14][15][16] They obtain all the additional moisture they need from water vapor in the surrounding air.[17] Bed bugs are attracted to their hosts primarily by carbon dioxide, secondarily by warmth, and also by certain chemicals.[18][19][20]
Their bites are not usually noticed at the time. They develop slowly to low itchy welts that may take weeks to go away. They prefer exposed skin, preferably the face, neck and arms of a sleeping individual. The neck and jaw line are particularly favored places to feed.
Although under certain cool conditions adult bed bugs can live for as long as a year without feeding,[citation needed] under typically warm conditions they will try to feed at five to ten day intervals and adults can survive for about five months without food.[21] Younger instars cannot survive nearly as long, though even the vulnerable newly hatched first instars can survive for weeks without taking a blood meal.
At the 57th Annual Meeting of the Entomological Society of America in 2009, newer generations of pesticide-resistant bed bugs in Virginia were reported to survive only two months without feeding.[22]
DNA from human blood meals from bed bugs can be recovered for up to 90 days, which may allow them to be used for forensic purposes for identifying on whom the bed bugs have been feeding.
So, it seems that they will feed for the length of time until they are full, and then go for awhile without feeding.
Could this be the explanation for your experience?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 12, 2013 14:41:00 GMT -5
ts, - you once asked if anyone could give you an explanation for your experience with bed bugs other than it being a miracle & due to your prayer being answered. I was telling my son about your post & he gave me this answer. This is from wiki:Feeding habitsBed bugs are obligatory hematophagous (bloodsucking) insects. Most species feed on humans only when other prey are unavailable.[14][15][16] They obtain all the additional moisture they need from water vapor in the surrounding air.[17] Bed bugs are attracted to their hosts primarily by carbon dioxide, secondarily by warmth, and also by certain chemicals.[18][19][20] Their bites are not usually noticed at the time. They develop slowly to low itchy welts that may take weeks to go away. They prefer exposed skin, preferably the face, neck and arms of a sleeping individual. The neck and jaw line are particularly favored places to feed. Although under certain cool conditions adult bed bugs can live for as long as a year without feeding,[citation needed] under typically warm conditions they will try to feed at five to ten day intervals and adults can survive for about five months without food.[21] Younger instars cannot survive nearly as long, though even the vulnerable newly hatched first instars can survive for weeks without taking a blood meal. At the 57th Annual Meeting of the Entomological Society of America in 2009, newer generations of pesticide-resistant bed bugs in Virginia were reported to survive only two months without feeding.[22] DNA from human blood meals from bed bugs can be recovered for up to 90 days, which may allow them to be used for forensic purposes for identifying on whom the bed bugs have been feeding. So, it seems that they will feed for the length of time until they are full, and then go for awhile without feeding.
Could this be the explanation for your experience?
Sorry, I got this under this thread-I thought I was putting it under the "miracles" thread.
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Post by faune on Jul 12, 2013 15:31:03 GMT -5
Findingtruth shared...Findingtruth ~ I appreciated what you shared earlier and highlighted the portion that really stood out to me in your post. Your candid observation really speaks to me of someone on a quest for truth and I agree with your thoughts about Christ did not come to "establish rituals," but to promote a message of love and harmony. I believe there's a lot more to be gleaned from the ministry of Jesus when we take off the "rose colored glasses" of religion, which can obscure our findings. I'm one, like yourself, that believe in listening to their "gut feelings" and following where it leads. I believe it's our compass in life and we can safely trust its direction when it is based in reality and not fiction. Thanks again for sharing!
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Post by snow on Jul 12, 2013 17:34:42 GMT -5
If everyone didn't work, this world would be a very interesting place. I believe we all must contribute or we wouldn't have anything at all. Go into the wilds for a year on your own and find out just how much you need to do to stay alive then tell me that you don't need to do anything. You can't just sit in the middle of no where and expect you meal to be placed in front of you cooked. You need to get out there and hunt, clean and cook it yourself. That's just common sense. This is where we are going to differ. I am not advocating not working. I am advocating seeking the kingdom of God first. I am guessing that you have never really experienced God's favour. When we have the favour of God and man, our identity is not in what we can accomplish. Our identity is not in how much we can pull our weight and how much others do not. We simply have favour and doors open for us. I have a friend who is a responsible kind of guy. He has a business and a family and employees. Recently God told him to give away all the money he had. He had bills due and not paying the bills would have shut him down. But he gave everything away. The story after that how God opened doors for him is just miraculous. It is a testimony. Like I said, I am not against working. Trusting God is a deliberate act. There are many people in this world who are hungry for the Holy Spirit and we are the ones who are to carry the Holy Spirit. We get that by being in God's presence and being filled. It is in that space that we can do miracles. What if everywhere we went we healed someone. How much resources would that free up in this world? How much favour would that gain us? Even if there were no healing done, isn't a peaceful presence of a supernatural and real God a welcomed site for many? How many have not experienced that and turned to not believing in God? They have not experienced that because too many Christians have given up on it and shown only carnal good works and carnal self interest. ts, it's probably not wise to assume what other's have experienced. You might be surprised.
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Post by quizzer on Jul 12, 2013 17:50:25 GMT -5
Not really "too busy"- You should know being in the "TRUTH". I wonder now how I ever had time for anything else! You went to Sunday morning meeting,and some places Sunday evening meetings, Wed. evening meetings, all of which in the intervening times you had to read the bible so you would have something to say in the meetings! To also pray! Then in between times if there were gospel meetings anywhere within 50 miles (or so it seemed) you went to those also! One of the most wonderful things I enjoyed on leaving was I had control of my private time! I loved it & still do![/font][/b][/quote] I have to agree. When you're not being shunned by the 2x2s, you can enveloped in a whirlwind of gospel meetings, meetings, get-togethers, whatever. You have no free time. Also, if you have non-professing friends, you're given a guilt trip about not having enough professing friends and how you need to meet more professing folks, need to spend more time in meetings so that you can build these friendships. Geez. It's being very nice going through my current shunning. Workers and hearty friends don't call and visit, no invites to gospel meetings and extra conventions. ...maybe I'll fill up some of my free time by writing thank-you notes to everyone avoiding me for their consideration, thoughtfulness, and the quietness I enjoy...
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 12, 2013 22:01:20 GMT -5
[/b][/font] "I enjoyed some close (or I thought they were close) friendships with others in the fellowship. When I left, they basically became "too busy" to get together. Not only was it obvious but it was almost ridiculous."
Not really "too busy"- You should know being in the "TRUTH".
I wonder now how I ever had time for anything else! You went to Sunday morning meeting,and some places Sunday evening meetings, Wed. evening meetings, all of which in the intervening times you had to read the bible so you would have something to say in the meetings! To also pray! Then in between times if there were gospel meetings anywhere within 50 miles (or so it seemed) you went to those also!
One of the most wonderful things I enjoyed on leaving was I had control of my private time! I loved it & still do!
[/quote] dmm, I have to agree with you. It is nice having the freedom to CHOOSE what you do with your time. I'm not sure about you but I felt almost trapped into making a "good impression" instead of living a life of love and simply being grateful for life! I'd guess, however, that you may have been even more committed to all the trappings of gospel meetings etc than I was. I DID attend Sunday meetings every week and almost always attended Wednesday night bible studies. I attended some gospel meetings but not as many as most. I always wondered what the point was. Seems that "gospel meetings" should be for the purpose of sharing the gospel of Christ with those who have not heard it before. But rarely did anyone attend but the "regulars". Fact is, it seems that things became so automated that there was likely more who felt burdened by the gospel meetings than encouraged. I think most in my area attended only to support the workers. At least I heard a few comments that would have suggested that. Frankly, I was more encouraged (always) in small conversations and studies that took place outside of the meeting setting. They were REAL.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 12, 2013 22:03:48 GMT -5
Findingtruth shared...Findingtruth ~ I appreciated what you shared earlier and highlighted the portion that really stood out to me in your post. Your candid observation really speaks to me of someone on a quest for truth and I agree with your thoughts about Christ did not come to "establish rituals," but to promote a message of love and harmony. I believe there's a lot more to be gleaned from the ministry of Jesus when we take off the "rose colored glasses" of religion, which can obscure our findings. I'm one, like yourself, that believe in listening to their "gut feelings" and following where it leads. I believe it's our compass in life and we can safely trust its direction when it is based in reality and not fiction. Thanks again for sharing! Oh, I believe in my "gut feelings" & when my "gut" starts "rumbling," and you can bet I start following where it leads- to the bathroom quick! and at my age, I mean quick! -on the double & all that!
(Sorry, faune, I just couldn't contain myself on that one! Please forgive me?)
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 12, 2013 22:05:21 GMT -5
I have to agree. When you're not being shunned by the 2x2s, you can enveloped in a whirlwind of gospel meetings, meetings, get-togethers, whatever. You have no free time. Also, if you have non-professing friends, you're given a guilt trip about not having enough professing friends and how you need to meet more professing folks, need to spend more time in meetings so that you can build these friendships. Geez. It's being very nice going through my current shunning. Workers and hearty friends don't call and visit, no invites to gospel meetings and extra conventions. ...maybe I'll fill up some of my free time by writing thank-you notes to everyone avoiding me for their consideration, thoughtfulness, and the quietness I enjoy... quizzer, what is your story? Somehow I thought you were still affiliated with meetings. Are you no longer attending? If so, where are you at on your journey and quest for TRUTH?
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Post by ts on Jul 12, 2013 22:07:50 GMT -5
This is where we are going to differ. I am not advocating not working. I am advocating seeking the kingdom of God first. I am guessing that you have never really experienced God's favour. When we have the favour of God and man, our identity is not in what we can accomplish. Our identity is not in how much we can pull our weight and how much others do not. We simply have favour and doors open for us. I have a friend who is a responsible kind of guy. He has a business and a family and employees. Recently God told him to give away all the money he had. He had bills due and not paying the bills would have shut him down. But he gave everything away. The story after that how God opened doors for him is just miraculous. It is a testimony. Like I said, I am not against working. Trusting God is a deliberate act. There are many people in this world who are hungry for the Holy Spirit and we are the ones who are to carry the Holy Spirit. We get that by being in God's presence and being filled. It is in that space that we can do miracles. What if everywhere we went we healed someone. How much resources would that free up in this world? How much favour would that gain us? Even if there were no healing done, isn't a peaceful presence of a supernatural and real God a welcomed site for many? How many have not experienced that and turned to not believing in God? They have not experienced that because too many Christians have given up on it and shown only carnal good works and carnal self interest. ts, it's probably not wise to assume what other's have experienced. You might be surprised. I am interested to hear your testimony. Surprise me.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 12, 2013 22:16:35 GMT -5
Findingtruth shared...Findingtruth ~ I appreciated what you shared earlier and highlighted the portion that really stood out to me in your post. Your candid observation really speaks to me of someone on a quest for truth and I agree with your thoughts about Christ did not come to "establish rituals," but to promote a message of love and harmony. I believe there's a lot more to be gleaned from the ministry of Jesus when we take off the "rose colored glasses" of religion, which can obscure our findings. I'm one, like yourself, that believe in listening to their "gut feelings" and following where it leads. I believe it's our compass in life and we can safely trust its direction when it is based in reality and not fiction. Thanks again for sharing! Yes faune, when I finally decided I was ready to launch out on a quest to understand what the true purpose and mission of Christ was I realized that I was not reading scripture as it was written and certainly I hadn't been taught what was actually written. Tossing around a few convenient verses to justify a position or point of view seems to be not only the norm of the 2x2s but the religious world generally speaking. I'm not willing to commit my feelings at this point because I feel way too much has been omitted from scripture. we can form some basic conclusions (or opinions) but not sure we really understand Truth.
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Post by quizzer on Jul 13, 2013 5:50:42 GMT -5
I have to agree. When you're not being shunned by the 2x2s, you can enveloped in a whirlwind of gospel meetings, meetings, get-togethers, whatever. You have no free time. Also, if you have non-professing friends, you're given a guilt trip about not having enough professing friends and how you need to meet more professing folks, need to spend more time in meetings so that you can build these friendships. Geez. It's being very nice going through my current shunning. Workers and hearty friends don't call and visit, no invites to gospel meetings and extra conventions. ...maybe I'll fill up some of my free time by writing thank-you notes to everyone avoiding me for their consideration, thoughtfulness, and the quietness I enjoy... quizzer, what is your story? Somehow I thought you were still affiliated with meetings. Are you no longer attending? If so, where are you at on your journey and quest for TRUTH? Most of my family's story is posted on TLC. Basically, my family was shunned for three generations because my grandmother found out about the wacky sex lives of the brother workers. Most of my family is now non-professing, and I'm related through the family still professing. My family, being one of the older professing families, had some clues about the origin of the 2x2s. When I read Cherie's work, it all clicked. I've been very fortunate that my waking-up-to-the-meetings has occurred during a time of message boards so I can connect with a variety of other folks - professing, non-professing, exe-2x2.
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Post by emy on Jul 13, 2013 13:37:31 GMT -5
OK, quizzer. I'm now nearly informed! I guess the F&W evasiveness is pretty ingrained?
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Post by snow on Jul 13, 2013 14:40:32 GMT -5
quizzer, what is your story? Somehow I thought you were still affiliated with meetings. Are you no longer attending? If so, where are you at on your journey and quest for TRUTH? Most of my family's story is posted on TLC. Basically, my family was shunned for three generations because my grandmother found out about the wacky sex lives of the brother workers. Most of my family is now non-professing, and I'm related through the family still professing. My family, being one of the older professing families, had some clues about the origin of the 2x2s. When I read Cherie's work, it all clicked. I've been very fortunate that my waking-up-to-the-meetings has occurred during a time of message boards so I can connect with a variety of other folks - professing, non-professing, exe-2x2. So, does that mean you're related to a professing family or are you a professing person yourself? You don't need to answer, but I couldn't tell from this. I always thought you professed. ??
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Post by quizzer on Jul 14, 2013 2:05:06 GMT -5
Most of my family's story is posted on TLC. Basically, my family was shunned for three generations because my grandmother found out about the wacky sex lives of the brother workers. Most of my family is now non-professing, and I'm related through the family still professing. My family, being one of the older professing families, had some clues about the origin of the 2x2s. When I read Cherie's work, it all clicked. I've been very fortunate that my waking-up-to-the-meetings has occurred during a time of message boards so I can connect with a variety of other folks - professing, non-professing, exe-2x2. So, does that mean you're related to a professing family or are you a professing person yourself? You don't need to answer, but I couldn't tell from this. I always thought you professed. ?? Yeah, I'm professing. Guess I can't leave my family alone with the 2x2s - it's not safe for anyone!
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Post by quizzer on Jul 14, 2013 2:06:56 GMT -5
OK, quizzer. I'm now nearly informed! I guess the F&W evasiveness is pretty ingrained? Details are easy, emy. My grandmother got to be an unfortunate witness to IH's orgies with his companion and a married professing woman. IH, his companion, and the professing woman were heroes in the eyes of the overseer, and my grandmother was the bad person for believing that the lady was sick and taking her a casserole.
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Post by snow on Jul 14, 2013 12:43:39 GMT -5
So, does that mean you're related to a professing family or are you a professing person yourself? You don't need to answer, but I couldn't tell from this. I always thought you professed. ?? Yeah, I'm professing. Guess I can't leave my family alone with the 2x2s - it's not safe for anyone! LOL, the protector! Thanks, I thought you were, but then I wasn't sure.
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Post by quizzer on Jul 15, 2013 9:00:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm professing. Guess I can't leave my family alone with the 2x2s - it's not safe for anyone! LOL, the protector! Thanks, I thought you were, but then I wasn't sure. No worries, snow! There are days when even I don't know what I'm protecting!
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