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Post by findingtruth on Jul 8, 2013 8:30:17 GMT -5
So, sac, why why why do you remain in this fellowship when you are obviously distressed by the shaky and corrupt foundation? Because I see the good. Perhaps I am like a battered woman that keeps going back to the one that beats her because she hopes that he will change. sac, apparently you fail to see that Jesus, as far as I can see, called people OUT of organizations that promoted division, animosity, judgment etc. I see the family of Jesus bound together through a mutual love for Jesus, NOT through organizational structure. I see this by what I read in the words of Christ. You shall know followers by the fruits in their lives. Their lives are guided by Christ, not by peer pressure. They understand how to live peaceably among others, they understand what true faith is even when they feel alone in their journey at times. Your comment reminds me of the dog that returns to its' vomit. This isn't really a healthy attitude in my opinion. You will never change what has been built on a shaky foundation. Please remember that God works in individual lives and not in a "group effort". Those who believe in Christ can edify one another through love and service, not through continued prideful justification and judgement of others. And this love and service is not limited to any one group because they do not recognize their brothers and sisters by a group that identifies by anything other than Christ alone.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 8, 2013 8:31:17 GMT -5
Linford, need I remind you that the 2x2 fellowship came into existence for the exact splits on doctrine? Same song, different fellowship. Please don't feel unique in this because you are no different in the eyes of God. Jesus never intended for His people to be divided. I clearly see as much division in the 2x2 fellowship as I do in any other denomination. This is true. Does this mean there is no body doing what Jesus intended? Linford, you will see my answer to this in my response to Sac.
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Post by jondough on Jul 8, 2013 8:44:28 GMT -5
Because I see the good. Perhaps I am like a battered woman that keeps going back to the one that beats her because she hopes that he will change. sac, apparently you fail to see that Jesus, as far as I can see, called people OUT of organizations that promoted division, animosity, judgment etc. I see the family of Jesus bound together through a mutual love for Jesus, NOT through organizational structure. I see this by what I read in the words of Christ. You shall know followers by the fruits in their lives. Their lives are guided by Christ, not by peer pressure. They understand how to live peaceably among others, they understand what true faith is even when they feel alone in their journey at times. Your comment reminds me of the dog that returns to its' vomit. This isn't really a healthy attitude in my opinion. You will never change what has been built on a shaky foundation. Please remember that God works in individual lives and not in a "group effort". Those who believe in Christ can edify one another through love and service, not through continued prideful justification and judgement of others. And this love and service is not limited to any one group because they do not recognize their brothers and sisters by a group that identifies by anything other than Christ alone. This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well.
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Post by snow on Jul 8, 2013 11:31:47 GMT -5
I see very few that do what Jesus COMMANDED: * Love your enemies * Love those that despitefully use you * Be meek * Be poor in Spirit * Look after the poor * Look after the prisoners * Look after the prostitutes * Look after the insane * Look after the leper (or the one with AIDS, syphilis, etc.) * Hunger and thirst for righteousness * Do not judge * Forgive others This is what I look for in Christians, not whether or not they meet in a home, whether or not they draw a salary, whether or not they wear nice clothes, whether or not they wear their hair in a bun, etc. But, as a Christian, I don't give a damn what anyone else is doing- I am COMMANDED by our Saviour to LOVE ALL. To give a drink of cold water to ALL. Whether that be the bum, the prostitute, the man dying in the gutter, etc. Some of the more Christian people I know are agnostic. At least by their actions they are more Christian than the Christians. Same for some of my Buddist and Hindu friends. They put the Christians to shame. We can do all of this and not know God. Remember the rich young ruler? It's true, no one needs to be a Christian or follow Jesus to do these things. So maybe there is more to knowing God than being a Christian and following Jesus?
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Post by snow on Jul 8, 2013 11:38:41 GMT -5
sac, apparently you fail to see that Jesus, as far as I can see, called people OUT of organizations that promoted division, animosity, judgment etc. I see the family of Jesus bound together through a mutual love for Jesus, NOT through organizational structure. I see this by what I read in the words of Christ. You shall know followers by the fruits in their lives. Their lives are guided by Christ, not by peer pressure. They understand how to live peaceably among others, they understand what true faith is even when they feel alone in their journey at times. Your comment reminds me of the dog that returns to its' vomit. This isn't really a healthy attitude in my opinion. You will never change what has been built on a shaky foundation. Please remember that God works in individual lives and not in a "group effort". Those who believe in Christ can edify one another through love and service, not through continued prideful justification and judgement of others. And this love and service is not limited to any one group because they do not recognize their brothers and sisters by a group that identifies by anything other than Christ alone. This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well. I don't think it matters who you meet with. It doesn't matter what religion you are. It doesn't matter if you are religious at all. All that matters is how you love those around you. If you love there is less chance of causing others pain and more of a chance that you will be a positive in their lives.
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Post by ts on Jul 8, 2013 15:29:33 GMT -5
Thankfully, Lyle was plenty clear in his letter to Brandon. . . A member of the 2x2s has to believe in the church in the home and in preachers without a home. I believe in both- but I also believe that there can be churches in other buildings and preachers that have a home. I guess I will wait on my excommunication letter in the mail. I was told one time "Don't tell all you know,because then others will know more than you know. They will know all you know and all they know too." Sometimes it's better to write in the sand, and say nothing. Jesus could write in the sand because he preached a gospel that was true and had power. The Workers think they are doing the same (and teach the Friends to do the same) when they are actually stonewalling because they are cornered and are caught in a lie. Jesus was righteous and the Workers are being self righteous. The Workers are saying they are taking the side of Jesus who wrote in the sand but they are actually taking the side of the pharisees who slinked(slunk) (I can't believe that "slunk" is the correct spelling) out without a word because they knew they were guilty.
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Post by ts on Jul 8, 2013 15:43:46 GMT -5
Linford's talk is very typical 2x2.
They know what is "right" by 2x2 doctrine and you can see who they approve of by, if nothing else, the funeral sermons. One is preached the "faithful" sermon...the other gets a gospel meeting for a funeral because the can't see anything in their lives that indicated they were serving Jesus.
The Friends and Workers know who is comfortable spiritual fellowship to them.
Press them on the uncomfortable ones, and they waffle. "It is not mine to judge".
Somehow there is no spiritual discernment anywhere in meeting that says that a person is serving God and another isn't. They can't tell if a Worker is not serving God but invites him into his home and sits in his gospel meetings being fed spiritually by him "as if from the Holy Spirit".
However, they can tell if a "worldly preacher" is not serving God and will not listen to his sermons. They can't be fed by that Christian but they can be fed by Workers.
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Post by ts on Jul 8, 2013 16:15:09 GMT -5
Some of the Friends were able to tell Linford that I was not of the same spirit as they were because when I spoke I "went on and on" and he believed that. No content of what I spoke was mentioned.
This is a typical judgment in the Meetings...yet they can stonewall all day with scriptures about works and rich young rulers and appearance and how you can't really know what is in someone's hearts.
Then, when Workers tell people to not take part because the "don't have the right spirit" or something... The Workers are not expressing the feelings and beliefs of the group, they are simply expressing their own feelings and judgments...yet using the power of the group to carry out their judgment.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 8, 2013 16:15:36 GMT -5
sac, apparently you fail to see that Jesus, as far as I can see, called people OUT of organizations that promoted division, animosity, judgment etc. I see the family of Jesus bound together through a mutual love for Jesus, NOT through organizational structure. I see this by what I read in the words of Christ. You shall know followers by the fruits in their lives. Their lives are guided by Christ, not by peer pressure. They understand how to live peaceably among others, they understand what true faith is even when they feel alone in their journey at times. Your comment reminds me of the dog that returns to its' vomit. This isn't really a healthy attitude in my opinion. You will never change what has been built on a shaky foundation. Please remember that God works in individual lives and not in a "group effort". Those who believe in Christ can edify one another through love and service, not through continued prideful justification and judgement of others. And this love and service is not limited to any one group because they do not recognize their brothers and sisters by a group that identifies by anything other than Christ alone. This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well. I understand what you are saying and I am not in complete disagreement. I am attempting to make a point. If an individual is unhappy with the organization they have chosen to affiliate with, if they have little or no respect for the leadership and seem to hope to be excommunicated, then WHY continue to stay with it? If it's repulsive how edifying can it be? I believe this is a fair question. Don't you? I would hope you would meet with the F&W because you are encouraged and have no "axe to grind". Now I'll ask you directly and hope you will offer a direct answer: Can the same not be said for all other church organizations? Are they not equal in God's eyes? If you do not feel they are, why? I still maintain, however, that Christ did NOT come to set up an organized group that excluded any others who have a love and respect for His gospel message. Some tend to believe otherwise but I'd challenge anyone to present scripture that would support their view.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 8, 2013 16:27:58 GMT -5
This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well. I understand what you are saying and I am not in complete disagreement. I am attempting to make a point. If an individual is unhappy with the organization they have chosen to affiliate with, if they have little or no respect for the leadership and seem to hope to be excommunicated, then WHY continue to stay with it? If it's repulsive how edifying can it be? I believe this is a fair question. Don't you? I would hope you would meet with the F&W because you are encouraged and have no "axe to grind". Now I'll ask you directly and hope you will offer a direct answer: Can the same not be said for all other church organizations? Are they not equal in God's eyes? If you do not feel they are, why? I still maintain, however, that Christ did NOT come to set up an organized group that excluded any others who have a love and respect for His gospel message. Some tend to believe otherwise but I'd challenge anyone to present scripture that would support their view. I have respect for most of the leadership- and have hope for the others. I do not hope to be excommunicated, I expect to be excommunicated- those are two different things. I am not repulsed by the fellowship, quite the opposite, I am drawn to it and am happy with it. I find it an odd thing that folks take the attitude that it will never change or that one person cannot help bring about that change. I probably am not that person, but I never discount the power of one doing what they can.
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Post by ts on Jul 8, 2013 16:29:43 GMT -5
This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well. I understand what you are saying and I am not in complete disagreement. I am attempting to make a point. If an individual is unhappy with the organization they have chosen to affiliate with, if they have little or no respect for the leadership and seem to hope to be excommunicated, then WHY continue to stay with it? If it's repulsive how edifying can it be? I believe this is a fair question. Don't you? I would hope you would meet with the F&W because you are encouraged and have no "axe to grind". Now I'll ask you directly and hope you will offer a direct answer: Can the same not be said for all other church organizations? Are they not equal in God's eyes? If you do not feel they are, why? I still maintain, however, that Christ did NOT come to set up an organized group that excluded any others who have a love and respect for His gospel message. Some tend to believe otherwise but I'd challenge anyone to present scripture that would support their view. I agree with you in that Jesus did not set up groups that focus on specific passages of scripture. That is the real issue. That is what leads to the different names, for the most part. That is why, actually, the 2x2s are called "2x2s". The focus on that specific part of scripture and claim that following Jesus is not complete without the 2x2 ministry. The problem is, of course, all the added doctrines and abuses that occur with false doctrines of men. One such example is the order to not marry in order to be in the Work. Many other such things are added and are simply "blind tradition's chain" that we sing about in Meeting. These added doctrines are what give the Workers power and create the exclusivity and hard feelings and disunity. Why not address these issues?
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Post by ts on Jul 8, 2013 16:38:22 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying and I am not in complete disagreement. I am attempting to make a point. If an individual is unhappy with the organization they have chosen to affiliate with, if they have little or no respect for the leadership and seem to hope to be excommunicated, then WHY continue to stay with it? If it's repulsive how edifying can it be? I believe this is a fair question. Don't you? I would hope you would meet with the F&W because you are encouraged and have no "axe to grind". Now I'll ask you directly and hope you will offer a direct answer: Can the same not be said for all other church organizations? Are they not equal in God's eyes? If you do not feel they are, why? I still maintain, however, that Christ did NOT come to set up an organized group that excluded any others who have a love and respect for His gospel message. Some tend to believe otherwise but I'd challenge anyone to present scripture that would support their view. I have respect for most of the leadership- and have hope for the others. I do not hope to be excommunicated, I expect to be excommunicated- those are two different things. I am not repulsed by the fellowship, quite the opposite, I am drawn to it and am happy with it. I find it an odd thing that folks take the attitude that it will never change or that one person cannot help bring about that change. I probably am not that person, but I never discount the power of one doing what they can. My family would be in fellowship with the Friends and Workers if these changes you talk about were implemented. It is not that we are avoiding fellowship. I expect that if the Friends and Workers (beginning with my professing family) were to feel the way you do, they would be reaching out to me. I am already reaching out to them. They are afraid of me and avoid me. All because I have challenged some of their false doctrine and some of the abuses.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 8, 2013 17:08:56 GMT -5
I have respect for most of the leadership- and have hope for the others. I do not hope to be excommunicated, I expect to be excommunicated- those are two different things. I am not repulsed by the fellowship, quite the opposite, I am drawn to it and am happy with it. I find it an odd thing that folks take the attitude that it will never change or that one person cannot help bring about that change. I probably am not that person, but I never discount the power of one doing what they can. My family would be in fellowship with the Friends and Workers if these changes you talk about were implemented. It is not that we are avoiding fellowship. I expect that if the Friends and Workers (beginning with my professing family) were to feel the way you do, they would be reaching out to me. I am already reaching out to them. They are afraid of me and avoid me. All because I have challenged some of their false doctrine and some of the abuses. TS, the workers and friends have treated you like dirt because they can. The false gossip and lies against you were despicable and uncalled for. I am sure that there are friends and workers that would love to contact you and your family- but like in Alberta- you are persona non grata- therefore anyone that is seen to be friendly with you is automatically suspect. Let them continue to shun you and gossip about you- that speaks volumes to how low the fellowship has fallen.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 8, 2013 17:46:19 GMT -5
sac, apparently you fail to see that Jesus, as far as I can see, called people OUT of organizations that promoted division, animosity, judgment etc. I see the family of Jesus bound together through a mutual love for Jesus, NOT through organizational structure. I see this by what I read in the words of Christ. You shall know followers by the fruits in their lives. Their lives are guided by Christ, not by peer pressure. They understand how to live peaceably among others, they understand what true faith is even when they feel alone in their journey at times. Your comment reminds me of the dog that returns to its' vomit. This isn't really a healthy attitude in my opinion. You will never change what has been built on a shaky foundation. Please remember that God works in individual lives and not in a "group effort". Those who believe in Christ can edify one another through love and service, not through continued prideful justification and judgement of others. And this love and service is not limited to any one group because they do not recognize their brothers and sisters by a group that identifies by anything other than Christ alone. This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well. jd, actually I have no desire to "preach" but I would like to encourage those who have closed their eyes to what Jesus taught, lived and died for to consider His words and His life. There is nothing in scripture that indicates Christ encouraged His followers to separate themselves from other believers. Sadly, as well, many who connect with organized religion (I am including 2x2s in this group) tend to separate themselves from other believers and judge others based on their own perception of things, and NOT what Christ taught. And I believe if you are honest you will admit that most inside the fellowship do NOT consider those of us who left the fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ and if asked that question directly, most (probably including you) will dodge that question like a bullet. I know why - you and I were taught that those who left the fellowship turned their back on Christ. This is not true and it is a lie that keeps many in captivity.
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Post by ts on Jul 8, 2013 18:04:52 GMT -5
My family would be in fellowship with the Friends and Workers if these changes you talk about were implemented. It is not that we are avoiding fellowship. I expect that if the Friends and Workers (beginning with my professing family) were to feel the way you do, they would be reaching out to me. I am already reaching out to them. They are afraid of me and avoid me. All because I have challenged some of their false doctrine and some of the abuses. TS, the workers and friends have treated you like dirt because they can. The false gossip and lies against you were despicable and uncalled for. I am sure that there are friends and workers that would love to contact you and your family- but like in Alberta- you are persona non grata- therefore anyone that is seen to be friendly with you is automatically suspect. Let them continue to shun you and gossip about you- that speaks volumes to how low the fellowship has fallen. I know that you are right. I will say this. There is a family that I KNOW gossiped about me. I KNOW they are RENOWNED for gossiping and gaining favour with the Workers. They are simply good at it. When I was in the Work in their home, I was catered to like all the other Workers. I loved them then and still do now. I would love to be with them even knowing that they will gossip about me. I simply remember the times we had together. I feel that way about most of the Friends and I know that they would be great friends to have. A great community to be in if they were not influenced by false doctrine and the false rumours and gossip that go with it. Why even Linfofd and myself would have nice fellowship together, I am sure.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 8, 2013 18:32:32 GMT -5
TS, the workers and friends have treated you like dirt because they can. The false gossip and lies against you were despicable and uncalled for. I am sure that there are friends and workers that would love to contact you and your family- but like in Alberta- you are persona non grata- therefore anyone that is seen to be friendly with you is automatically suspect. Let them continue to shun you and gossip about you- that speaks volumes to how low the fellowship has fallen. I know that you are right. I will say this. There is a family that I KNOW gossiped about me. I KNOW they are RENOWNED for gossiping and gaining favour with the Workers. They are simply good at it. When I was in the Work in their home, I was catered to like all the other Workers. I loved them then and still do now. I would love to be with them even knowing that they will gossip about me. I simply remember the times we had together. I feel that way about most of the Friends and I know that they would be great friends to have. A great community to be in if they were not influenced by false doctrine and the false rumours and gossip that go with it. Why even Linfofd and myself would have nice fellowship together, I am sure. I am sure as well my friend.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 9, 2013 0:28:45 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying and I am not in complete disagreement. I am attempting to make a point. If an individual is unhappy with the organization they have chosen to affiliate with, if they have little or no respect for the leadership and seem to hope to be excommunicated, then WHY continue to stay with it? If it's repulsive how edifying can it be? I believe this is a fair question. Don't you? I would hope you would meet with the F&W because you are encouraged and have no "axe to grind". Now I'll ask you directly and hope you will offer a direct answer: Can the same not be said for all other church organizations? Are they not equal in God's eyes? If you do not feel they are, why? I still maintain, however, that Christ did NOT come to set up an organized group that excluded any others who have a love and respect for His gospel message. Some tend to believe otherwise but I'd challenge anyone to present scripture that would support their view. I have respect for most of the leadership- and have hope for the others. I do not hope to be excommunicated, I expect to be excommunicated- those are two different things. I am not repulsed by the fellowship, quite the opposite, I am drawn to it and am happy with it. I find it an odd thing that folks take the attitude that it will never change or that one person cannot help bring about that change. I probably am not that person, but I never discount the power of one doing what they can. WHY do you "expect" to be excommunicated? I realize that "wanting" to and "expecting" to are two different things. Many have been excommunicated or intimidated for standing for the principles that Christ taught. It would seem to me that any ministry that excommunicates individuals for standing for TRUTH and taking a stand against corruption clearly has no respect for Christ. I don't take the attitude that things cannot change, but I do not believe any one person can change a lifeless system. You personally can only allow change to take place in your own heart. I also don't believe something that has a corrupt foundation can be pure. New life can only take place with rebirth. The old must be done away with so that new life can take place. I wish you the best on your journey.
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Post by jondough on Jul 9, 2013 7:50:37 GMT -5
This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well. I understand what you are saying and I am not in complete disagreement. I am attempting to make a point. If an individual is unhappy with the organization they have chosen to affiliate with, if they have little or no respect for the leadership and seem to hope to be excommunicated, then WHY continue to stay with it? If it's repulsive how edifying can it be? I believe this is a fair question. Don't you? I would hope you would meet with the F&W because you are encouraged and have no "axe to grind". Now I'll ask you directly and hope you will offer a direct answer: Can the same not be said for all other church organizations? Are they not equal in God's eyes? If you do not feel they are, why? I still maintain, however, that Christ did NOT come to set up an organized group that excluded any others who have a love and respect for His gospel message. Some tend to believe otherwise but I'd challenge anyone to present scripture that would support their view. I guess this is a question that everyone needs to ask themselves. Am I encouraged or discouraged when I meet with the people I fellowship with. I agree. If there is no encouragement there, why are you meeting with them? I think what SD is saying is, show me something better. Give me reason to leave this one. Are the others any better, or much different? Again, an individual choice we must all make. I disagree that you should have np ax to grind if you are meeting with them. No organization is perfect. Unless you happen to be a head-nodder, most likely you will find something you will disagree about with whomever you meet with.
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Post by jondough on Jul 9, 2013 8:12:31 GMT -5
This goes right back to what you are trying to preach. Its not about an organization. Its not about whom we meet with. Its about accepting Christ, loving him, getting to know him better day by day, being led by the spirit, and continuing to nurture that love for heavenly things. So back to you....If the above is in order, and we choose to meet with F&W, where is the problem? If we receive encouragement there, why should we not? Most of us that meet with F&W do so because we feel that we have many brothers and sisters whom we love that meet there as well. jd, actually I have no desire to "preach" but I would like to encourage those who have closed their eyes to what Jesus taught, lived and died for to consider His words and His life. There is nothing in scripture that indicates Christ encouraged His followers to separate themselves from other believers. Sadly, as well, many who connect with organized religion (I am including 2x2s in this group) tend to separate themselves from other believers and judge others based on their own perception of things, and NOT what Christ taught. And I believe if you are honest you will admit that most inside the fellowship do NOT consider those of us who left the fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ and if asked that question directly, most (probably including you) will dodge that question like a bullet. I know why - you and I were taught that those who left the fellowship turned their back on Christ. This is not true and it is a lie that keeps many in captivity. I guess you don't know me too well Sharon. I crawled out of that box some time ago. Myself - a few years ago...more so than now, but even then I felt that there were many outside our fellowship that were brothers and sisters. I have some that are related to me that have helped with this. Some of the most Godly people you will ever meet. I've had these discussion with people in our fellowship. It is very true that most in our fellowship are very exclusive. Most think that if a person has an honest heart, they will be led to "Truth" (meaning our fellowship). One guy who really represents the the thinking of the majority that I talked to about this said he did believe that there are others who might be saved, but only because they may live in some remote area where they couldn't find "Truth". I told him that I knew people who were not a part of our fellowship that I know are my brothers. He asked "do you feel that connection of the Spirit that you feel with the "Friends?". I told him yes. It then went silent. What they don't realize is that it is them that are in a tiny box, that does not allow that connection. They look at everyone else as "outsiders". They will not allow themselves to get on a brother to brother level and talk spiritual with anyone else so they cannot experience the connection of the spirit with anyone else. I know. I use to be one of them. You are right in that they are in captivity to this. They miss out on so much blessing. You can see people like Emy that are peeping through the holes in the box, but because of what has been instilled into them since a child, are afraid to come out. I just hope that more and more within our fellowship can experience getting out of that box like I have had the privilege of doing.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 9, 2013 8:20:55 GMT -5
jd, actually I have no desire to "preach" but I would like to encourage those who have closed their eyes to what Jesus taught, lived and died for to consider His words and His life. There is nothing in scripture that indicates Christ encouraged His followers to separate themselves from other believers. Sadly, as well, many who connect with organized religion (I am including 2x2s in this group) tend to separate themselves from other believers and judge others based on their own perception of things, and NOT what Christ taught. And I believe if you are honest you will admit that most inside the fellowship do NOT consider those of us who left the fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ and if asked that question directly, most (probably including you) will dodge that question like a bullet. I know why - you and I were taught that those who left the fellowship turned their back on Christ. This is not true and it is a lie that keeps many in captivity. I guess you don't know me too well Sharon. I crawled out of that box some time ago. Myself - a few years ago...more so than now, but even then I felt that there were many outside our fellowship that were brothers and sisters. I have some that are related to me that have helped with this. Some of the most Godly people you will ever meet. I've had these discussion with people in our fellowship. It is very true that most in our fellowship are very exclusive. Most think that if a person has an honest heart, they will be led to "Truth" (meaning our fellowship). One guy who really represents the the thinking of the majority that I talked to about this said he did believe that there are others who might be saved, but only because they may live in some remote area where they couldn't find "Truth". I told him that I knew people who were not a part of our fellowship that I know are my brothers. He asked "do you feel that connection of the Spirit that you feel with the "Friends?". I told him yes. It then went silent. What they don't realize is that it is them that are in a tiny box, that does not allow that connection. They look at everyone else as "outsiders". They will not allow themselves to get on a brother to brother level and talk spiritual with anyone else so they cannot experience the connection of the spirit with anyone else. I know. I use to be one of them. You are right in that they are in captivity to this. They miss out on so much blessing. You can see people like Emy that are peeping through the holes in the box, but because of what has been instilled into them since a child, are afraid to come out. I just hope that more and more within our fellowship can experience getting out of that box like I have had the privilege of doing. Hear,hear. Exactly.
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Post by ts on Jul 9, 2013 8:37:23 GMT -5
jd, actually I have no desire to "preach" but I would like to encourage those who have closed their eyes to what Jesus taught, lived and died for to consider His words and His life. There is nothing in scripture that indicates Christ encouraged His followers to separate themselves from other believers. Sadly, as well, many who connect with organized religion (I am including 2x2s in this group) tend to separate themselves from other believers and judge others based on their own perception of things, and NOT what Christ taught. And I believe if you are honest you will admit that most inside the fellowship do NOT consider those of us who left the fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ and if asked that question directly, most (probably including you) will dodge that question like a bullet. I know why - you and I were taught that those who left the fellowship turned their back on Christ. This is not true and it is a lie that keeps many in captivity. I guess you don't know me too well Sharon. I crawled out of that box some time ago. Myself - a few years ago...more so than now, but even then I felt that there were many outside our fellowship that were brothers and sisters. I have some that are related to me that have helped with this. Some of the most Godly people you will ever meet. I've had these discussion with people in our fellowship. It is very true that most in our fellowship are very exclusive. Most think that if a person has an honest heart, they will be led to "Truth" (meaning our fellowship). One guy who really represents the the thinking of the majority that I talked to about this said he did believe that there are others who might be saved, but only because they may live in some remote area where they couldn't find "Truth". I told him that I knew people who were not a part of our fellowship that I know are my brothers. He asked "do you feel that connection of the Spirit that you feel with the "Friends?". I told him yes. It then went silent. What they don't realize is that it is them that are in a tiny box, that does not allow that connection. They look at everyone else as "outsiders". They will not allow themselves to get on a brother to brother level and talk spiritual with anyone else so they cannot experience the connection of the spirit with anyone else. I know. I use to be one of them. You are right in that they are in captivity to this. They miss out on so much blessing. You can see people like Emy that are peeping through the holes in the box, but because of what has been instilled into them since a child, are afraid to come out. I just hope that more and more within our fellowship can experience getting out of that box like I have had the privilege of doing. This is why I say that I am still professing. Great post. I have a lot of brothers and sisters in the Meetings that I would like to see experience what I am experiencing. It is not a "different church" or any such thing. It is simply the gospel of Jesus Christ. I believed what we preached and launched out into the deep in faith forsaking the traditions of men and the form and fashion in pursuit of truth. What I have found I am sharing with the Friends and Workers when I can. No group. No religion. Just us all seeking Jesus and finding him and sharing what he has shown us.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 9, 2013 16:38:54 GMT -5
jd, actually I have no desire to "preach" but I would like to encourage those who have closed their eyes to what Jesus taught, lived and died for to consider His words and His life. There is nothing in scripture that indicates Christ encouraged His followers to separate themselves from other believers. Sadly, as well, many who connect with organized religion (I am including 2x2s in this group) tend to separate themselves from other believers and judge others based on their own perception of things, and NOT what Christ taught. And I believe if you are honest you will admit that most inside the fellowship do NOT consider those of us who left the fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ and if asked that question directly, most (probably including you) will dodge that question like a bullet. I know why - you and I were taught that those who left the fellowship turned their back on Christ. This is not true and it is a lie that keeps many in captivity. I guess you don't know me too well Sharon. I crawled out of that box some time ago. Myself - a few years ago...more so than now, but even then I felt that there were many outside our fellowship that were brothers and sisters. I have some that are related to me that have helped with this. Some of the most Godly people you will ever meet. I've had these discussion with people in our fellowship. It is very true that most in our fellowship are very exclusive. Most think that if a person has an honest heart, they will be led to "Truth" (meaning our fellowship). One guy who really represents the the thinking of the majority that I talked to about this said he did believe that there are others who might be saved, but only because they may live in some remote area where they couldn't find "Truth". I told him that I knew people who were not a part of our fellowship that I know are my brothers. He asked "do you feel that connection of the Spirit that you feel with the "Friends?". I told him yes. It then went silent. What they don't realize is that it is them that are in a tiny box, that does not allow that connection. They look at everyone else as "outsiders". They will not allow themselves to get on a brother to brother level and talk spiritual with anyone else so they cannot experience the connection of the spirit with anyone else. I know. I use to be one of them. You are right in that they are in captivity to this. They miss out on so much blessing. You can see people like Emy that are peeping through the holes in the box, but because of what has been instilled into them since a child, are afraid to come out. I just hope that more and more within our fellowship can experience getting out of that box like I have had the privilege of doing. jd, I appreciate your spirit. Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of fellowship with those inside the 2x2 fellowship as brothers and sisters. There seems to be a terrible fear on their part that they'll be contaminated or corrupted. It's disappointing. Some that I enjoyed spending time with have ceased any connection with me. I haven't offended any that I'm aware of, never sent out an exit letter. I am open with my feelings here on TMB but have been nothing but respectful to those in the 2x2 fellowship. Have tried to connect with some but they always have excuses not to connect. Hopefully in time more will change but I don't have a lot of confidence. Perhaps at some point I'll connect with one who has an honest open spirit. FYI, my name is not Sharon but thanks for trying. :-)
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Post by ts on Jul 9, 2013 22:22:21 GMT -5
That's so true,but don't we have the human ability to do nice things and kind deeds? I believe we do and feel therefore that is not always a picture of what's eternal.Those qualities are what we should do,but when we die they rot with the flesh. just my feelings. I see it a little different. Jesus said whosoever gives a drink of cold water to someone, it was like doing it to Him- that simple action of kindness was noted by Christ. That seemed to be something that had eternal weight. I feel that we show our love for God through our love for our neighbor, and we show the love of God in us, when we can love our enemy. The first commandment is to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. The second was like unto it, to love our neighbor as ourself. Maybe I am wrong, but I like what Abraham Lincoln said, "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Perhaps Emily Dickinson said my thoughts even better- "If I can stop one heart from breaking, I shall not live in vain." I see it perhaps even a little more differently. Why was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to sell everything and give to the poor and follow him? Was it a call into the "Work", as is often said in Meeting? Not necessarily. I don't think that Jesus was asking the rich ruler to do anything that he would not ask of everyone. To me, the point is that unless we are seeing God as our provider and not ourselves, we are not laying up treasure in Heaven. Also, we are not sowing in faith and, therefore, not reaping faith. It is true what Linford says that anyone can do good deeds and still not have a relationship with God. On the other hand, with a relationship with God, we can easily give away everything we have knowing that God will provide for us today and in the future and into retirement until death, should that ever happen to us. In fact, if we are following Jesus perfectly, we will definitely have that sort of faith. It is a hard and far fetched message that Jesus taught. Many people have had to twist it so that they do not have to rely on God for their security but their own strength and effort. "take no thought for tomorrow..." "give and it shall be given to you..." "If any man ask your coat, give him your cloak..." All these require actions in faith. In believing and doing God's words, we are sowing in faith and reaping a harvest.
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2013 0:12:43 GMT -5
I guess you don't know me too well Sharon. I crawled out of that box some time ago. Myself - a few years ago...more so than now, but even then I felt that there were many outside our fellowship that were brothers and sisters. I have some that are related to me that have helped with this. Some of the most Godly people you will ever meet. I've had these discussion with people in our fellowship. It is very true that most in our fellowship are very exclusive. Most think that if a person has an honest heart, they will be led to "Truth" (meaning our fellowship). One guy who really represents the the thinking of the majority that I talked to about this said he did believe that there are others who might be saved, but only because they may live in some remote area where they couldn't find "Truth". I told him that I knew people who were not a part of our fellowship that I know are my brothers. He asked "do you feel that connection of the Spirit that you feel with the "Friends?". I told him yes. It then went silent. What they don't realize is that it is them that are in a tiny box, that does not allow that connection. They look at everyone else as "outsiders". They will not allow themselves to get on a brother to brother level and talk spiritual with anyone else so they cannot experience the connection of the spirit with anyone else. I know. I use to be one of them. You are right in that they are in captivity to this. They miss out on so much blessing. You can see people like Emy that are peeping through the holes in the box, but because of what has been instilled into them since a child, are afraid to come out. I just hope that more and more within our fellowship can experience getting out of that box like I have had the privilege of doing. jd, I appreciate your spirit. Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of fellowship with those inside the 2x2 fellowship as brothers and sisters. There seems to be a terrible fear on their part that they'll be contaminated or corrupted. It's disappointing. Some that I enjoyed spending time with have ceased any connection with me. I haven't offended any that I'm aware of, never sent out an exit letter. I am open with my feelings here on TMB but have been nothing but respectful to those in the 2x2 fellowship. Have tried to connect with some but they always have excuses not to connect. Hopefully in time more will change but I don't have a lot of confidence. Perhaps at some point I'll connect with one who has an honest open spirit. FYI, my name is not Sharon but thanks for trying. :-) Sorry on the name. I thought you were Sharon, the one we all know, that had all the computer problems...Why did I think she changed her screen name, and it was you? Oh well, good to meet you. That is too bad that you are being shunned. Its not surprising though. How long ago did you leave the fellowship? Do you live in the US? Were you born and raised in the fellowship. How about your family? If so, are they also shunning you? Lots of questions, and I understand if you don't answer them, but they all are relevant to how you are being treated. I do wish it weren't so. JD
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 10, 2013 7:43:25 GMT -5
I guess you don't know me too well Sharon. I crawled out of that box some time ago. Myself - a few years ago...more so than now, but even then I felt that there were many outside our fellowship that were brothers and sisters. I have some that are related to me that have helped with this. Some of the most Godly people you will ever meet. I've had these discussion with people in our fellowship. It is very true that most in our fellowship are very exclusive. Most think that if a person has an honest heart, they will be led to "Truth" (meaning our fellowship). One guy who really represents the the thinking of the majority that I talked to about this said he did believe that there are others who might be saved, but only because they may live in some remote area where they couldn't find "Truth". I told him that I knew people who were not a part of our fellowship that I know are my brothers. He asked "do you feel that connection of the Spirit that you feel with the "Friends?". I told him yes. It then went silent. What they don't realize is that it is them that are in a tiny box, that does not allow that connection. They look at everyone else as "outsiders". They will not allow themselves to get on a brother to brother level and talk spiritual with anyone else so they cannot experience the connection of the spirit with anyone else. I know. I use to be one of them. You are right in that they are in captivity to this. They miss out on so much blessing. You can see people like Emy that are peeping through the holes in the box, but because of what has been instilled into them since a child, are afraid to come out. I just hope that more and more within our fellowship can experience getting out of that box like I have had the privilege of doing. jd, I appreciate your spirit. Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of fellowship with those inside the 2x2 fellowship as brothers and sisters. There seems to be a terrible fear on their part that they'll be contaminated or corrupted. It's disappointing. Some that I enjoyed spending time with have ceased any connection with me. I haven't offended any that I'm aware of, never sent out an exit letter. I am open with my feelings here on TMB but have been nothing but respectful to those in the 2x2 fellowship. Have tried to connect with some but they always have excuses not to connect. Hopefully in time more will change but I don't have a lot of confidence. Perhaps at some point I'll connect with one who has an honest open spirit. FYI, my name is not Sharon but thanks for trying. :-) I echo JD's sentiments to you in another post- I am sorry that you are being shunned. It is one of the stupidest, most anti-Christ teaching, that some religious organizations have come up with as a way to control people. The 2x2s are trying to hate you back into the fellowship. It might work in rare cases, but for the most part, I think it just shows how insecure the 2x2 organization is and in need of a hug to let them know that it is OK, they will come to their senses one day, hopefully.
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Post by snow on Jul 10, 2013 11:31:40 GMT -5
I see it a little different. Jesus said whosoever gives a drink of cold water to someone, it was like doing it to Him- that simple action of kindness was noted by Christ. That seemed to be something that had eternal weight. I feel that we show our love for God through our love for our neighbor, and we show the love of God in us, when we can love our enemy. The first commandment is to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. The second was like unto it, to love our neighbor as ourself. Maybe I am wrong, but I like what Abraham Lincoln said, "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Perhaps Emily Dickinson said my thoughts even better- "If I can stop one heart from breaking, I shall not live in vain." I see it perhaps even a little more differently. Why was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to sell everything and give to the poor and follow him? Was it a call into the "Work", as is often said in Meeting? Not necessarily. I don't think that Jesus was asking the rich ruler to do anything that he would not ask of everyone. To me, the point is that unless we are seeing God as our provider and not ourselves, we are not laying up treasure in Heaven. Also, we are not sowing in faith and, therefore, not reaping faith. It is true what Linford says that anyone can do good deeds and still not have a relationship with God. On the other hand, with a relationship with God, we can easily give away everything we have knowing that God will provide for us today and in the future and into retirement until death, should that ever happen to us. In fact, if we are following Jesus perfectly, we will definitely have that sort of faith. It is a hard and far fetched message that Jesus taught. Many people have had to twist it so that they do not have to rely on God for their security but their own strength and effort. "take no thought for tomorrow..." "give and it shall be given to you..." "If any man ask your coat, give him your cloak..." All these require actions in faith. In believing and doing God's words, we are sowing in faith and reaping a harvest. Maybe his message was just this: Give up anything that keeps you from being the best you can be in regards to others and yourself. If money is keeping you in a state of greed, fear of loss etc, it is clearly an issue that will keep you from finding inner peace and could lead to harm of others. However, that can be anything really. Doesn't need to be just worldly possessions.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 10, 2013 12:52:26 GMT -5
I see it perhaps even a little more differently. Why was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to sell everything and give to the poor and follow him? Was it a call into the "Work", as is often said in Meeting? Not necessarily. I don't think that Jesus was asking the rich ruler to do anything that he would not ask of everyone. To me, the point is that unless we are seeing God as our provider and not ourselves, we are not laying up treasure in Heaven. Also, we are not sowing in faith and, therefore, not reaping faith. It is true what Linford says that anyone can do good deeds and still not have a relationship with God. On the other hand, with a relationship with God, we can easily give away everything we have knowing that God will provide for us today and in the future and into retirement until death, should that ever happen to us. In fact, if we are following Jesus perfectly, we will definitely have that sort of faith. It is a hard and far fetched message that Jesus taught. Many people have had to twist it so that they do not have to rely on God for their security but their own strength and effort. "take no thought for tomorrow..." "give and it shall be given to you..." "If any man ask your coat, give him your cloak..." All these require actions in faith. In believing and doing God's words, we are sowing in faith and reaping a harvest. Maybe his message was just this: Give up anything that keeps you from being the best you can be in regards to others and yourself. If money is keeping you in a state of greed, fear of loss etc, it is clearly an issue that will keep you from finding inner peace and could lead to harm of others. However, that can be anything really. Doesn't need to be just worldly possessions. I wonder if Jesus wasn't telling this young man his own testimony. Jesus had done this when he came to this earth. He gave up all he had to come to this earth and gave hope to the poor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2013 13:44:10 GMT -5
I have respect for most of the leadership- and have hope for the others. I do not hope to be excommunicated, I expect to be excommunicated- those are two different things. I am not repulsed by the fellowship, quite the opposite, I am drawn to it and am happy with it. I find it an odd thing that folks take the attitude that it will never change or that one person cannot help bring about that change. I probably am not that person, but I never discount the power of one doing what they can. My family would be in fellowship with the Friends and Workers if these changes you talk about were implemented. It is not that we are avoiding fellowship. I expect that if the Friends and Workers (beginning with my professing family) were to feel the way you do, they would be reaching out to me. I am already reaching out to them. They are afraid of me and avoid me. All because I have challenged some of their false doctrine and some of the abuses. Do you think that being a member of a particular fellowship or religious organisation imposes limits on us, as individuals, in our capacity to serve God in spirit and in truth? Does it restrict us unduly because we have to adhere to doctrinal rules and regulations, which may or may not be scripturally genuine rather than to be spirit led and be guided by our consciences and hearts? That would seem to me to negate the concept of having free wills to make choices as God has created us. It is like it is better to obey rather than to sacrifice our place in the church. However, it might very well be a case of disobey and preserve your place in the Kingdom. Just some thoughts going through my mind.
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