|
Post by ts on Jul 10, 2013 14:48:17 GMT -5
Maybe his message was just this: Give up anything that keeps you from being the best you can be in regards to others and yourself. If money is keeping you in a state of greed, fear of loss etc, it is clearly an issue that will keep you from finding inner peace and could lead to harm of others. However, that can be anything really. Doesn't need to be just worldly possessions. I wonder if Jesus wasn't telling this young man his own testimony. Jesus had done this when he came to this earth. He gave up all he had to come to this earth and gave hope to the poor. I think you are right, Linford. God bankrupted heaven in order to make us rich. God sowed one son and gained many sons. It is sowing and reaping. I believe that is why Jesus included in the disciples' prayer to pray, "As in heaven, let it be so on earth." We are to be calling heaven into earth. Jesus did not die so that we could one day go to heaven. Heaven starts here on earth. Jesus died so that we could be in relationship with our heavenly Father like Jesus was and is. If we believe the lies Satan has presented and manifested in the world around us, we will not walk in faith and in the power of Heaven as royalty and sons of the King. If we believe that we are more valuable than sparrows and lilies and God provides for us, nothing will stand in the way of us following Jesus and waking his walk. NOTHING will be impossible for us. We can walk the vision and destiny that he gave us before we were born. That is what was redeemed for us by the blood of Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 10, 2013 15:03:45 GMT -5
I see it perhaps even a little more differently. Why was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to sell everything and give to the poor and follow him? Was it a call into the "Work", as is often said in Meeting? Not necessarily. I don't think that Jesus was asking the rich ruler to do anything that he would not ask of everyone. To me, the point is that unless we are seeing God as our provider and not ourselves, we are not laying up treasure in Heaven. Also, we are not sowing in faith and, therefore, not reaping faith. It is true what Linford says that anyone can do good deeds and still not have a relationship with God. On the other hand, with a relationship with God, we can easily give away everything we have knowing that God will provide for us today and in the future and into retirement until death, should that ever happen to us. In fact, if we are following Jesus perfectly, we will definitely have that sort of faith. It is a hard and far fetched message that Jesus taught. Many people have had to twist it so that they do not have to rely on God for their security but their own strength and effort. "take no thought for tomorrow..." "give and it shall be given to you..." "If any man ask your coat, give him your cloak..." All these require actions in faith. In believing and doing God's words, we are sowing in faith and reaping a harvest. Maybe his message was just this: Give up anything that keeps you from being the best you can be in regards to others and yourself. If money is keeping you in a state of greed, fear of loss etc, it is clearly an issue that will keep you from finding inner peace and could lead to harm of others. However, that can be anything really. Doesn't need to be just worldly possessions. I agree with you in part. Jesus was walking a life of supernatural gifts of Heaven. He was the very presence of God because he had yielded his life to the control of the Holy Spirit. If we are to have the same sort presence, that is what we have to do. For example, Jesus needed to be anointed with oil before he went to the cross for his burial. He did not go out and get a job to earn enough money to accomplish that. He did not rely on his own strength. God provided that for him and I don't think that the woman who broke the alabaster box knew exactly why she was anointing Jesus. I just heard a story from a friend who said his dad and brother needed boots. His dad prayed and God said, "Ok, just go get them." So, he went to the shoe store and he and his son tried on shoes. They both found boots that fit perfectly and they liked. They were expensive and they could not afford them. They left the store to look at other boots but could not find any that they liked. When they came back to the first store, it was closed. Short story is that they went out back to the dumpsters and found one open and looked in. In the dumpster he found two pair of boots exactly like the ones that they had looked at. Same size and everything. The only thing is that one had a broken lace and one had a bit of leather peeled back that was fixed with a drop of super glue. That is God's provision. He wants to lead us to a place where we can completely trust him and hear his voice. It is a relationship, see. Not a bunch of theories and a "good way of life" or "being nice to others". It isn't just living by "christian principles".
|
|
|
Post by findingtruth on Jul 10, 2013 19:53:47 GMT -5
jd, I appreciate your spirit. Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of fellowship with those inside the 2x2 fellowship as brothers and sisters. There seems to be a terrible fear on their part that they'll be contaminated or corrupted. It's disappointing. Some that I enjoyed spending time with have ceased any connection with me. I haven't offended any that I'm aware of, never sent out an exit letter. I am open with my feelings here on TMB but have been nothing but respectful to those in the 2x2 fellowship. Have tried to connect with some but they always have excuses not to connect. Hopefully in time more will change but I don't have a lot of confidence. Perhaps at some point I'll connect with one who has an honest open spirit. FYI, my name is not Sharon but thanks for trying. :-) Sorry on the name. I thought you were Sharon, the one we all know, that had all the computer problems...Why did I think she changed her screen name, and it was you? Oh well, good to meet you. That is too bad that you are being shunned. Its not surprising though. How long ago did you leave the fellowship? Do you live in the US? Were you born and raised in the fellowship. How about your family? If so, are they also shunning you? Lots of questions, and I understand if you don't answer them, but they all are relevant to how you are being treated. I do wish it weren't so. JD jd, I have no problem answering your questions. I left well over 3 years ago and I was not B&R but my parents professed when I was close to adulthood. My family is close and while they are kind to me they feel that I have lost my understanding of Truth. They are very indoctrinated and feel like most in the fellowship - it is the TRUTH and all others outside are lost. They care about others outside and recognize great people and enjoy spending time with others but, again, feel they are spiritually blind. The elder and wife of the meeting I attended did not even inquire about me for 3 months after I left the meetings and I attended regularly. Others in the fellowship have not contacted me. If we see other at random time (in a store for example) they are kind but they do not contact me otherwise. I know that the only thing that connected us was the meetings. Obviously no real love there. Yes, I live in the U.S.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 10, 2013 19:56:48 GMT -5
Maybe his message was just this: Give up anything that keeps you from being the best you can be in regards to others and yourself. If money is keeping you in a state of greed, fear of loss etc, it is clearly an issue that will keep you from finding inner peace and could lead to harm of others. However, that can be anything really. Doesn't need to be just worldly possessions. I wonder if Jesus wasn't telling this young man his own testimony. Jesus had done this when he came to this earth. He gave up all he had to come to this earth and gave hope to the poor. Possibly.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 10, 2013 20:04:21 GMT -5
Maybe his message was just this: Give up anything that keeps you from being the best you can be in regards to others and yourself. If money is keeping you in a state of greed, fear of loss etc, it is clearly an issue that will keep you from finding inner peace and could lead to harm of others. However, that can be anything really. Doesn't need to be just worldly possessions. I agree with you in part. Jesus was walking a life of supernatural gifts of Heaven. He was the very presence of God because he had yielded his life to the control of the Holy Spirit. If we are to have the same sort presence, that is what we have to do. For example, Jesus needed to be anointed with oil before he went to the cross for his burial. He did not go out and get a job to earn enough money to accomplish that. He did not rely on his own strength. God provided that for him and I don't think that the woman who broke the alabaster box knew exactly why she was anointing Jesus. I just heard a story from a friend who said his dad and brother needed boots. His dad prayed and God said, "Ok, just go get them." So, he went to the shoe store and he and his son tried on shoes. They both found boots that fit perfectly and they liked. They were expensive and they could not afford them. They left the store to look at other boots but could not find any that they liked. When they came back to the first store, it was closed. Short story is that they went out back to the dumpsters and found one open and looked in. In the dumpster he found two pair of boots exactly like the ones that they had looked at. Same size and everything. The only thing is that one had a broken lace and one had a bit of leather peeled back that was fixed with a drop of super glue. That is God's provision. He wants to lead us to a place where we can completely trust him and hear his voice. It is a relationship, see. Not a bunch of theories and a "good way of life" or "being nice to others". It isn't just living by "christian principles". I don't believe we should just sit around and wait for someone to provide our needs though. We need to make an effort too. However, I do agree that there are some pretty good things that happen when we least expect them.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2013 20:59:14 GMT -5
Sorry on the name. I thought you were Sharon, the one we all know, that had all the computer problems...Why did I think she changed her screen name, and it was you? Oh well, good to meet you. That is too bad that you are being shunned. Its not surprising though. How long ago did you leave the fellowship? Do you live in the US? Were you born and raised in the fellowship. How about your family? If so, are they also shunning you? Lots of questions, and I understand if you don't answer them, but they all are relevant to how you are being treated. I do wish it weren't so. JD jd, I have no problem answering your questions. I left well over 3 years ago and I was not B&R but my parents professed when I was close to adulthood. My family is close and while they are kind to me they feel that I have lost my understanding of Truth. They are very indoctrinated and feel like most in the fellowship - it is the TRUTH and all others outside are lost. They care about others outside and recognize great people and enjoy spending time with others but, again, feel they are spiritually blind. The elder and wife of the meeting I attended did not even inquire about me for 3 months after I left the meetings and I attended regularly. Others in the fellowship have not contacted me. If we see other at random time (in a store for example) they are kind but they do not contact me otherwise. I know that the only thing that connected us was the meetings. Obviously no real love there. Yes, I live in the U.S. I don't want you to think i'm trying to make excuses for anyone, but one thing I can tell you for sure is, when someone leaves a group - and I'm speaking of any group, not just the fellowship. The people that remain in the group automatically assume that the person that left does not want to be contacted. I am not denying that shunning happens. I have not completely figured out if the reason for this is to try to shun them into coming back, or due to self righteousness, they feel they don't want to be tainted by this person. I think its mainly the latter. They feel that they don't want the worldly influence to rub off on them. But, there are many that do not shun people like this, but like i said above, may not have contacted you for just the reason i stated above. I know that I've been guilty of not making effort to contact some who have left. A lot of it is because we are so busy, and out of sight-out of mind as well. The other reason can also be that many of the "Friends" are very sheltered. They really do not know how to interact with anyone outside the fellowship. Really, no different than the Amish. Have you ever been around the Amish. They are so uncomfortable with those outside their group, you become uncomfortable for them. So, although there is no doubt shunning that may be happening by a few. I would guess that many are because of the other reasons and more.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 10, 2013 21:32:01 GMT -5
I agree with you in part. Jesus was walking a life of supernatural gifts of Heaven. He was the very presence of God because he had yielded his life to the control of the Holy Spirit. If we are to have the same sort presence, that is what we have to do. For example, Jesus needed to be anointed with oil before he went to the cross for his burial. He did not go out and get a job to earn enough money to accomplish that. He did not rely on his own strength. God provided that for him and I don't think that the woman who broke the alabaster box knew exactly why she was anointing Jesus. I just heard a story from a friend who said his dad and brother needed boots. His dad prayed and God said, "Ok, just go get them." So, he went to the shoe store and he and his son tried on shoes. They both found boots that fit perfectly and they liked. They were expensive and they could not afford them. They left the store to look at other boots but could not find any that they liked. When they came back to the first store, it was closed. Short story is that they went out back to the dumpsters and found one open and looked in. In the dumpster he found two pair of boots exactly like the ones that they had looked at. Same size and everything. The only thing is that one had a broken lace and one had a bit of leather peeled back that was fixed with a drop of super glue. That is God's provision. He wants to lead us to a place where we can completely trust him and hear his voice. It is a relationship, see. Not a bunch of theories and a "good way of life" or "being nice to others". It isn't just living by "christian principles". I don't believe we should just sit around and wait for someone to provide our needs though. We need to make an effort too. However, I do agree that there are some pretty good things that happen when we least expect them. It is an error to think that "seeking first the kingdom of God and his righteousness" is the same as sitting around waiting for someone else to provide for our needs. If we have a really good relationship with a very rich Father that provides for our needs and the vision of his kingdom, that does not make us lazy. That makes us royalty and ambassadors that the King is glad to take care of.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 10, 2013 22:12:15 GMT -5
I've noticed royalty and ambassadors can be pretty lazy and do expect to be 'taken care of'. I'm not sure that's very edifying though.
|
|
|
Post by findingtruth on Jul 10, 2013 22:44:45 GMT -5
jd, I have no problem answering your questions. I left well over 3 years ago and I was not B&R but my parents professed when I was close to adulthood. My family is close and while they are kind to me they feel that I have lost my understanding of Truth. They are very indoctrinated and feel like most in the fellowship - it is the TRUTH and all others outside are lost. They care about others outside and recognize great people and enjoy spending time with others but, again, feel they are spiritually blind. The elder and wife of the meeting I attended did not even inquire about me for 3 months after I left the meetings and I attended regularly. Others in the fellowship have not contacted me. If we see other at random time (in a store for example) they are kind but they do not contact me otherwise. I know that the only thing that connected us was the meetings. Obviously no real love there. Yes, I live in the U.S. I don't want you to think i'm trying to make excuses for anyone, but one thing I can tell you for sure is, when someone leaves a group - and I'm speaking of any group, not just the fellowship. The people that remain in the group automatically assume that the person that left does not want to be contacted. I am not denying that shunning happens. I have not completely figured out if the reason for this is to try to shun them into coming back, or due to self righteousness, they feel they don't want to be tainted by this person. I think its mainly the latter. They feel that they don't want the worldly influence to rub off on them. But, there are many that do not shun people like this, but like i said above, may not have contacted you for just the reason i stated above. I know that I've been guilty of not making effort to contact some who have left. A lot of it is because we are so busy, and out of sight-out of mind as well. The other reason can also be that many of the "Friends" are very sheltered. They really do not know how to interact with anyone outside the fellowship. Really, no different than the Amish. Have you ever been around the Amish. They are so uncomfortable with those outside their group, you become uncomfortable for them. So, although there is no doubt shunning that may be happening by a few. I would guess that many are because of the other reasons and more. jd, I'm not sure I see things as you do. To imply that ANY group would make the assumption that an individual making a choice not to be involved in the organization any longer wants no contact is way off base. I remain friends with those I no longer work with. My family remained friends with church members of the church they attended prior to leaving that church and attending meetings. In fact those church members showed far more love for my family than any in the 2x2 fellowship. When the only thing that connects people is the "organization" with which they are affiliated I'd have to assume that there is no genuine love or friendship. Is that a stretch? If the 2x2 fellowship is a "family" as they claim to be, I'd say something is terribly amiss. The lie is that they claim those who leave the fellowship have also turned their back on Christ. Why do you think people are so utterly deceived into believing this?
|
|
|
Post by déjà vu on Jul 10, 2013 23:12:48 GMT -5
The lie is that they claim those who leave the fellowship have also turned their back on Christ. Why do you think people are so utterly deceived into believing this?
|
|
|
Post by déjà vu on Jul 10, 2013 23:17:15 GMT -5
Your Quote " The lie is that they claim those who leave the fellowship have also turned their back on Christ. Why do you think people are so utterly deceived into believing this?" I often wonder what % of those who leave also turn their back on Christ. personally I know a few.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 10, 2013 23:20:42 GMT -5
I've noticed royalty and ambassadors can be pretty lazy and do expect to be 'taken care of'. I'm not sure that's very edifying though. It takes effort to have faith. It is a real work. It is a yoke to bear. However, we do have a yoke one way or another. We can chose to go through life on our own merits and efforts or we can chose to take Jesus' yoke on us. I chose the one that is easy and light and has the supernatural backing of a Father who created everything and owns everything and gives us authority over all sickness and disease. It simply makes sense to me in every way. Not just in a financial sense.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 11, 2013 8:51:28 GMT -5
I don't want you to think i'm trying to make excuses for anyone, but one thing I can tell you for sure is, when someone leaves a group - and I'm speaking of any group, not just the fellowship. The people that remain in the group automatically assume that the person that left does not want to be contacted. I am not denying that shunning happens. I have not completely figured out if the reason for this is to try to shun them into coming back, or due to self righteousness, they feel they don't want to be tainted by this person. I think its mainly the latter. They feel that they don't want the worldly influence to rub off on them. But, there are many that do not shun people like this, but like i said above, may not have contacted you for just the reason i stated above. I know that I've been guilty of not making effort to contact some who have left. A lot of it is because we are so busy, and out of sight-out of mind as well. The other reason can also be that many of the "Friends" are very sheltered. They really do not know how to interact with anyone outside the fellowship. Really, no different than the Amish. Have you ever been around the Amish. They are so uncomfortable with those outside their group, you become uncomfortable for them. So, although there is no doubt shunning that may be happening by a few. I would guess that many are because of the other reasons and more. jd, I'm not sure I see things as you do. To imply that ANY group would make the assumption that an individual making a choice not to be involved in the organization any longer wants no contact is way off base. I remain friends with those I no longer work with. My family remained friends with church members of the church they attended prior to leaving that church and attending meetings. In fact those church members showed far more love for my family than any in the 2x2 fellowship. When the only thing that connects people is the "organization" with which they are affiliated I'd have to assume that there is no genuine love or friendship. Is that a stretch? If the 2x2 fellowship is a "family" as they claim to be, I'd say something is terribly amiss. The lie is that they claim those who leave the fellowship have also turned their back on Christ. Why do you think people are so utterly deceived into believing this? Thats an easy question. When one thinks that they are the ONLY true way. Then when someone leaves their organization, they are also turning their back on Christ, God, and his family. They are no longer part of the family. You would think that the parable of the lost sheep, or even the lost coin would then come into affect, but I guess they forget about that. Luke 15:3 ; 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?Instead, they figure they will ignore it until it finds them again. They take on the thinking of the protocol's son. They will receive them with open arms when they come home. Just a very wrong way of thinking that exclusiveness breeds. Like I've told you. I've been guilty of not making effort to make contact with some that have left. I am not exclusive at all. It would mainly do with just being busy, and involved with my own immediate family. I do speak to some that I grew up with and were close to, on the phone periodically. Always talk about getting together. Tell them to call me when they want to get together, but it never seems to happen due to our busy lives. Unless they were close though, I really don't talk to them at all. But, for the most part, I didn't really do anything with them outside of meeting even when they were going. Are there any that you have made contact with that seems to shun you? Are there any that were close friends that you did a lot with outside of meetings, but now they seem to not be interested in getting together? Why did you decide to quit? Did it happen slowly over time? Was it one significant event? Did you find something you felt was better for you? Do you go to any churches now and if so, how are they in comparison?
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 11, 2013 11:28:37 GMT -5
I've noticed royalty and ambassadors can be pretty lazy and do expect to be 'taken care of'. I'm not sure that's very edifying though. It takes effort to have faith. It is a real work. It is a yoke to bear. However, we do have a yoke one way or another. We can chose to go through life on our own merits and efforts or we can chose to take Jesus' yoke on us. I chose the one that is easy and light and has the supernatural backing of a Father who created everything and owns everything and gives us authority over all sickness and disease. It simply makes sense to me in every way. Not just in a financial sense. What about the parable of the talents? Do you equate those fellows with going through life on their own merits and efforts? What about the fellow that did nothing but hide his talent? He was rejected by the Lord.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 11, 2013 14:13:50 GMT -5
It takes effort to have faith. It is a real work. It is a yoke to bear. However, we do have a yoke one way or another. We can chose to go through life on our own merits and efforts or we can chose to take Jesus' yoke on us. I chose the one that is easy and light and has the supernatural backing of a Father who created everything and owns everything and gives us authority over all sickness and disease. It simply makes sense to me in every way. Not just in a financial sense. What about the parable of the talents? Do you equate those fellows with going through life on their own merits and efforts? What about the fellow that did nothing but hide his talent? He was rejected by the Lord. I am not sure what you are saying. I believe a talent was a piece of money back then. Not a natural gift. I believe that acting in faith is what Jesus was talking about laying up treasure in heaven. On scenario could go like this, for example: In judgment a fellow who made a lot of money buying and trading would get the judgment, "I never knew you" like in the sheep and the goats. Another person who lived a poor life but daily proved God's provision and had a real working relationship/two way conversation with God daily and saw miracles, was transported from here to there like Philip and had money and provision show up just when he needed it to do God's work...that person knew God and was known of God in the judgment. Something like that is what I am talking about. If I am probably not understanding you, though. Please clarify if you can.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2013 17:06:13 GMT -5
For me ts, it's more along the lines that God expects us to pull our weight and take care of our self and help others as they help us. Bottom line, it is always another human being that is doing the helping. I have never seen God come down and give anyone anything. It has always come from the hands of another human being. That's why I believe it's important to take on the challenges of my life and not expect someone else to pull my weight. You have a saying "God helps those who help themselves". That clearly says to me that you are expected to do the work.
|
|
|
Post by findingtruth on Jul 11, 2013 17:21:53 GMT -5
Your Quote " The lie is that they claim those who leave the fellowship have also turned their back on Christ. Why do you think people are so utterly deceived into believing this?" I often wonder what % of those who leave also turn their back on Christ. personally I know a few. W. tell, a better question might be, "what percentage of those INSIDE of the fellowship have turned their backs on Christ?" It really isn't a matter of whether one is inside of a bounded group or outside of a bounded group. A relationship with Christ should not be influenced whatsoever by a system. It is, as you know, a personal matter.
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Jul 11, 2013 17:35:19 GMT -5
I've noticed royalty and ambassadors can be pretty lazy and do expect to be 'taken care of'. I'm not sure that's very edifying though. It takes effort to have faith. It is a real work. It is a yoke to bear. However, we do have a yoke one way or another. We can chose to go through life on our own merits and efforts or we can chose to take Jesus' yoke on us. I chose the one that is easy and light and has the supernatural backing of a Father who created everything and owns everything and gives us authority over all sickness and disease. It simply makes sense to me in every way. Not just in a financial sense. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Jul 11, 2013 17:41:47 GMT -5
What about the parable of the talents? Do you equate those fellows with going through life on their own merits and efforts? What about the fellow that did nothing but hide his talent? He was rejected by the Lord. I am not sure what you are saying. I believe a talent was a piece of money back then. Not a natural gift. I believe that acting in faith is what Jesus was talking about laying up treasure in heaven. On scenario could go like this, for example: In judgment a fellow who made a lot of money buying and trading would get the judgment, "I never knew you" like in the sheep and the goats. Another person who lived a poor life but daily proved God's provision and had a real working relationship/two way conversation with God daily and saw miracles, was transported from here to there like Philip and had money and provision show up just when he needed it to do God's work...that person knew God and was known of God in the judgment. Something like that is what I am talking about. If I am probably not understanding you, though. Please clarify if you can. Ts I am probably not understanding you on we have to work hard on our faith.You either believe God or you don't. I believe it is difficult to remain humble and surrendered to Gods will. Its an issue with all men. God does test us to see where our faith is and from your experience you have said and can say God is faithful jmt ken
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 11, 2013 17:51:02 GMT -5
I am not sure what you are saying. I believe a talent was a piece of money back then. Not a natural gift. I believe that acting in faith is what Jesus was talking about laying up treasure in heaven. On scenario could go like this, for example: In judgment a fellow who made a lot of money buying and trading would get the judgment, "I never knew you" like in the sheep and the goats. Another person who lived a poor life but daily proved God's provision and had a real working relationship/two way conversation with God daily and saw miracles, was transported from here to there like Philip and had money and provision show up just when he needed it to do God's work...that person knew God and was known of God in the judgment. Something like that is what I am talking about. If I am probably not understanding you, though. Please clarify if you can. Ts I am probably not understanding you on we have to work hard on our faith.You either believe God or you don't. I believe it is difficult to remain humble and surrendered to Gods will. Its an issue with all men. God does test us to see where our faith is and from your experience you have said and can say God is faithful jmt ken I am not suggesting works. I am suggesting just the opposite. If it were so easy to give up our own ways and let the Holy Spirit possess us and show us rest, then why are not more people doing so? Why are we all not seeing the same miracles that Jesus and his disciples saw? It is a real effort to believe and to walk in that faith because our minds and wills want to take over when things get tough and we actually have to wait on God. How often do we get to the point of deliverance or a miracle and then take over and miss the blessing? We just don't know. But if we did have the blessing, we might realize how much heartache and years of recovery God was trying to spare us by trusting him and believing his supernatural care. That is what I mean by Jesus' yoke is easy and burden is light. That is what I mean by "effort" put into worship and prayer and communication with our Father. that is the key. Not our efforts. It is just hard for us to let go of that "effort" mind set.
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Jul 11, 2013 17:54:57 GMT -5
Ts I am probably not understanding you on we have to work hard on our faith.You either believe God or you don't. I believe it is difficult to remain humble and surrendered to Gods will. Its an issue with all men. God does test us to see where our faith is and from your experience you have said and can say God is faithful jmt ken I am not suggesting works. I am suggesting just the opposite. If it were so easy to give up our own ways and let the Holy Spirit possess us and show us rest, then why are not more people doing so? Why are we all not seeing the same miracles that Jesus and his disciples saw? It is a real effort to believe and to walk in that faith because our minds and wills want to take over when things get tough and we actually have to wait on God. How often do we get to the point of deliverance or a miracle and then take over and miss the blessing? We just don't know. But if we did have the blessing, we might realize how much heartache and years of recovery God was trying to spare us by trusting him and believing his supernatural care. That is what I mean by Jesus' yoke is easy and burden is light. That is what I mean by "effort" put into worship and prayer and communication with our Father. that is the key. Not our efforts. It is just hard for us to let go of that "effort" mind set. TS Gotcha thanks for clarifying.We are on the same page ken
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 11, 2013 18:29:32 GMT -5
For me ts, it's more along the lines that God expects us to pull our weight and take care of our self and help others as they help us. Bottom line, it is always another human being that is doing the helping. I have never seen God come down and give anyone anything. It has always come from the hands of another human being. That's why I believe it's important to take on the challenges of my life and not expect someone else to pull my weight. You have a saying "God helps those who help themselves". That clearly says to me that you are expected to do the work. I am very familiar with that saying. If you can find any instance where Jesus said it or anything near it, I would be more inclined to think that that is the way Jesus lived his life. Jesus had plenty of instances where he trusted his Father. In fact, he did not say or do anything that his Father did not tell him. That is the way we need to live our lives if we are to live like Jesus. the other option of "God helps those who help themselves" is also available and does not require faith. However, it is more satisfying to us who do not like to give up control to God. There are fewer miracles or instances where God shows up to provide with that mind set. And we are less likely to recognize when he does show up.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2013 19:22:41 GMT -5
Okay, we obviously don't agree on this one. So be it. I just feel it's important to pull my weight and be in the position where I can help others. After all those who help you, that you attribute to being God's providing, had to do enough to have enough to share with you in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by findingtruth on Jul 11, 2013 19:44:32 GMT -5
jd, I'm not sure I see things as you do. To imply that ANY group would make the assumption that an individual making a choice not to be involved in the organization any longer wants no contact is way off base. I remain friends with those I no longer work with. My family remained friends with church members of the church they attended prior to leaving that church and attending meetings. In fact those church members showed far more love for my family than any in the 2x2 fellowship. When the only thing that connects people is the "organization" with which they are affiliated I'd have to assume that there is no genuine love or friendship. Is that a stretch? If the 2x2 fellowship is a "family" as they claim to be, I'd say something is terribly amiss. The lie is that they claim those who leave the fellowship have also turned their back on Christ. Why do you think people are so utterly deceived into believing this? Thats an easy question. When one thinks that they are the ONLY true way. Then when someone leaves their organization, they are also turning their back on Christ, God, and his family. They are no longer part of the family. You would think that the parable of the lost sheep, or even the lost coin would then come into affect, but I guess they forget about that. Luke 15:3 ; 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?Instead, they figure they will ignore it until it finds them again. They take on the thinking of the protocol's son. They will receive them with open arms when they come home. Just a very wrong way of thinking that exclusiveness breeds. Like I've told you. I've been guilty of not making effort to make contact with some that have left. I am not exclusive at all. It would mainly do with just being busy, and involved with my own immediate family. I do speak to some that I grew up with and were close to, on the phone periodically. Always talk about getting together. Tell them to call me when they want to get together, but it never seems to happen due to our busy lives. Unless they were close though, I really don't talk to them at all. But, for the most part, I didn't really do anything with them outside of meeting even when they were going. Are there any that you have made contact with that seems to shun you? Are there any that were close friends that you did a lot with outside of meetings, but now they seem to not be interested in getting together? Why did you decide to quit? Did it happen slowly over time? Was it one significant event? Did you find something you felt was better for you? Do you go to any churches now and if so, how are they in comparison? jd, I enjoyed some close (or I thought they were close) friendships with others in the fellowship. When I left, they basically became "too busy" to get together. Not only was it obvious but it was almost ridiculous. My decision to leave was a result of several years of prayer and observation. And it might be interesting for you to note that I was unaware of ANY information on the internet. My heart told me things that no other individual needed to say. I also made a conscious effort to read my bible without any outside influence. All I wanted to know was "What was the purpose of Christ's message?" It is still my quest to understand it. I see things quite differently now than I did when I was entrenched in the 2x2 mindset. I'm thankful daily that I had the strength to do what the spirit was prompting me to do. I feel like a pilgrim and it's an enjoyable journey. My only disappointment is that many I still love are still trapped and view those of us who are exes as something not to be touched. Sure, many enjoy fellowship. Fellowship can be enjoyed anywhere, anytime and with anyone! It is my choice not to attend any organized church. I much prefer visits with one or two, or a few others. I do not believe that Christ came to establish rituals but I feel He came to bring us a very important message - a message of love and harmony. I have attended several churches over the past 3 and a half years and I must conclude that all are much the same (including the 2x2s). Seems that they are all so busy keeping themselves bonded through organization structure instead of a connection of the heart. Some are more legalistic than others (2x2s are among that group). All have their issues. Most do not shun members who have chosen to leave and will remain friends with former members. 2x2s are as guilty as Amish or other closed groups of shunning. It's simply done differently.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 11, 2013 21:05:59 GMT -5
Okay, we obviously don't agree on this one. So be it. I just feel it's important to pull my weight and be in the position where I can help others. After all those who help you, that you attribute to being God's providing, had to do enough to have enough to share with you in the first place. We don't agree because I have seen the "rat race" side of things and that does not fit with scripture. Jesus presented a whole new paradigm that was as radical in his day as it is now. In fact, it was radical in Moses' day when God told them to rest one day a week and one year in seven and they would be just fine and prosper. Instead they chose the rat race mentality and did not trust his word on that one. It led them into captivity in babylon and all that goes with that. I think Babylon is closer to where we are now than what God has planned for us when we trust him and he is the provider. It is not about doing nothing. It is about believing God's word. I have more to share now than I ever have had. I can give everything with nothing coming in because I know that God is my provider. I can tell people I give to that God is my provider and they can grow in faith. If God didn't actually provide for me, then it would be vain words.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 11, 2013 21:21:35 GMT -5
It takes effort to have faith. It is a real work. It is a yoke to bear. However, we do have a yoke one way or another. We can chose to go through life on our own merits and efforts or we can chose to take Jesus' yoke on us. I chose the one that is easy and light and has the supernatural backing of a Father who created everything and owns everything and gives us authority over all sickness and disease. It simply makes sense to me in every way. Not just in a financial sense. What about the parable of the talents? Do you equate those fellows with going through life on their own merits and efforts? What about the fellow that did nothing but hide his talent? He was rejected by the Lord. My point is this, God expects us to do something with what He has given us- He expects us to be wise stewards - with money, time, resources, whatever entrusted with us and DEMANDS interest on what He gives us. He was wroth with the man that DID NOTHING. That wasn't considered a sign of faith- it was a sign of cowardice. Maybe your talent is preaching, I don't know. But if that is your talent, then preach with all your might. I know that you aren't lazy, but that is the way some interpret what you write.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 11, 2013 21:23:10 GMT -5
It is not about doing nothing. It is about believing God's word. Where does God commend doing nothing?
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 11, 2013 22:13:37 GMT -5
It is not about doing nothing. It is about believing God's word. Where does God commend doing nothing? Nowhere. neither is believing and doing God's word "nothing". Jesus was also misunderstood. His sermons were "diffucult sayings" and people left him. In fact, I think that what we are talking about is "eating his flesh and drinking his blood". Living like Jesus is difficult for we who are earthbound. God is supernatural. Jesus did not come to show men how to live a good life. You can be atheist and do that. Jesus walked in the spirit and in the supernatural. Let me put it this way. We are just like the children of Israel when they were in the desert and saw obvious miracles and got fed by manna...they STILL wanted what they had in Egypt when they were working for all their things and in bondage. Their talents were NOT to be good slaves in Egypt but to be people who walked in faith and could then go and conquer giants with the power of Jesus. After two years of knowing God's provision and an angel going before them in a cloud, they STILL did not have the faith to completely trust God. I imagine that there were those who perceived Jesus as "lazy" or worse. Jesus did not have to justify his existence. He simply followed the voice of his Father every moment of the day...no matter what it looked like. That same relationship is what his blood restored for all of us. I believe the talents parable is about sowing and reaping. I think everyone has the same opportunity to be just like Jesus. To walk in the spirit and to heal and do the miracles he did and more. If we were all doing that, the subject of earning a living would be moot. We would come under God's rule and reign and his economic system. Sorta like the system he had in the desert or in the land of Israel. Like Jesus said, "seek first the kingdom and ALL THESE THINGS will be added unto you." Seeking is not doing "nothing". Not seeking certainly IS doing "nothing". Not seeking but killing ourselves to have the "American dream" is doing nothing in terms of using our "talents" although the latter gets more prestige and recognition. I am not against people having things and making money. I am simply looking at Jesus' words and saying that they are complete without adding anything to them (like "God helps those who help themselves" sort of thing)
|
|