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Post by fixit on Jun 28, 2013 1:27:41 GMT -5
I think that several of you are losing sight of the purpose of WINGS. It is to help the victims of CSA. If there are victims that will not go to this site, because of letters focused on bashing the fellowship, then they are not likely to "break the silence" so to speak. Is it so important to get out this information on this site, that we end up discouraging a victim rather than encouraging them and being a help? There is enough damage that they are trying to deal with (the CSA) without having to deal with other f&W issues. It will come. It takes time and it is a process. Lets encourage a breaking of the silence, not stifle it by discouraging those victims that are still loyal to the F&W. Further realization will come through healing. On the contrary - dealing with the history and realizing the F&W Fellowship is not God's ONLY true church has helped some victims to heal, as evidenced by some of the victims stories. The 2x2 history IS inextricably tied to the healing of those CSA victims who were B&R, which Jean was. Allow me to explain. Many victims were raised to believe they were part of God’s only true way on earth. Along comes a nice, friendly respected worker who befriends you, courts you, talks pretty to you--and then sexually abuses you. He further betrays you by letting you take unwarranted blame and suffer shame and sometimes punishment. He doesn’t apologize. You are left with the effects of CSA which permeates and utterly ruins your life. Your Abuser is an authority in God's only true church that is alleged to be “perfect,” and yet he has done this atrocity to you. Further some people recognize this child molester as a “Man of God,” and highly revere him. The “justice” of it all is mind boggling. It makes no sense. For you to get to heaven, you believe you MUST be in this way. That means you must submit to his authority and that of others like him. Authority figures you DO NOT & CANNOT TRUST. Its an endless cycle of despair and depression. You don’t want to go to hell. You cringe in fear at the thought; have nightmares about it. You are depressed—yet you cannot make yourself be a part of a church that allows and enables men like him to do this and to continue to do it to others. You live in agony that you will die at any moment and go to hell. A CSA victim believing the church is “God’s only way” has MAJOR COGNITIVE DISSONANCE! Due to this, you require medication and counseling just to function physically and go on living every day of your life. WHY? All because you believe the lie that that church is “God’s only true way.” You have no way to deal with your emotions toward this man. You hate him. You cannot begin to think of forgiving him. Yet workers and family tell you the Bible says that you MUST forgive him or you will go to hell. They also tell you that you must come back to the church you ran away from to get away from your abuser because it’s God's only true way. If/When the Victim discovers that the F&W church wasnt started with Jesus on the shores of Galilee, but rather was started by a man a little over 110 years ago—they usually realize that means it is not God’s only way on earth—Jesus is "the only way." They don’t have to be or stay inside that particular church to get to heaven. They realize they wont go to hell for refusing to be a part of a religious system that enabled men to abuse them, a system that cares more about the Abuser than the Victims. Learning the F&W church isn’t “God’s only way,” and finding out that the workers do not have a franchise on God lets the prisoner go free if s/he chooses. Now you finally have is peace in an area where there had been much pain, agony, guilt, etc. There is a gentle ebbing away of some of the cognitive dissonance…they no longer feel they have to be a part of something their Abuser is a part of, and they don’t have to submit to him and/or others like him to get to Heaven. For B&R adult victims of CSA—learning that the workers’ church is not God’s only way (thru the history) can play a HUGE part in their healing and finding peace. This historical truth becomes a door that allows the CSA Victim to pass thru and escape their cognitive dissonance. They are no longer trapped. They can even worship in another church if they choose, once they realize God is not found only in this one particular church. Sure most victims may still have a long way to go to recover, if they ever do, but the trap has been sprung. History opens doors that were previously closed to them. IMO, that's why learning about the F&W history is important to some CSA victims...and some on here want to edit that part of the victim's experience out of their stories!!! Jesse has gone on record saying he doesnt believe the F&W fellowship is God's ONLY way...so why doth he protest so much about it being mentioned in the CSA stories? My opinion FWIW: 1. Any lies about the history of the fellowship are being effectively dealt with on TTT, a specialist 2x2 history website. 2. TLC is a specialist website for those who want to vent about their experience with the fellowship. 3. CSA in the fellowship is a separate issue, and WINGS is a specialist website focused on CSA within the fellowship. As we all know, some folks consider the fellowship a "particularly dangerous cult" and would like to destroy it. It would be counter-productive to publish on WINGS the opinions of folks who would like to destroy the fellowship. Bottom line: some folks want to make the fellowship a better place and some folks want to destroy it. The two agendas don't mix.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 28, 2013 2:04:25 GMT -5
Which is why WINGS doesn't link to other websites or message boards that are about the fellowship, with the exception of the WINGS BTS board. In the past, we have had people who wanted WINGS to address the issues of sexual abuses among adults, spiritual abuse etc. Rational has commented on numerous occasions that all forms of abuse should be addressed. However, the focus of WINGS is on one subject only, and will remain so. BUT...... as mentioned quite a few times since WINGS started, anyone who wishes to gather some people together and dedicate time and effort to creating their own website and agenda, and perhaps a message board should just do so. And...... good luck with that!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 3:47:27 GMT -5
Come on Fixit, surely the eyes of your understanding have been opened by now? You are not on the ramparts of the Alamo!
You are far, far worse than the guy who unwittingly aroused your wrath. Most others have sensibly calmed down and accepted the reality of the situation. They have credibility to preserve. Do your own a favour. There's no room in my foxhole for anyone else.
As we all know, some folks consider the fellowship a "particularly dangerous cult" and would like to destroy it.
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Post by rational on Jun 28, 2013 7:19:05 GMT -5
"If this site is expected to be used by workers as a reference point, and for workers to refer others to for help, in my opinion, it should be tweaked a bit, so that it is concentrated solely on abuse issues, and not on doctrine issues." I don't write that way - too many commas. Then I may have added the commas--for ease in reading. Wait. You are posting a quote of what someone else wrote and you "may have added the commas"?? Is it really ethical to modify what someone wrote and then post it as a quote? Adding commas can change the entire meaning of a phrase and the quote you are posting could mean something very different. Commas don't seem like much but Let's eat grandpa! and Let's eat, grandpa! have very different meanings. After reading the letters one has to wonder how much the editing has modified the meanings of what was written. How much the 'suggestions' led the victim.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 28, 2013 10:46:16 GMT -5
Even Rappers Don't Like Proboard SitesSome of the abuse survivors are probably asking the same thing regarding the moving of their stories.... what happened?!
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Post by quizzer on Jun 28, 2013 11:04:54 GMT -5
Of course WINGS has control of the stories. I and others commented on the non-CSA content on WINGS on the BTS board in 2008, people attacked me for trying to shut victims up, something I didn't intend to do at all. That was back when I thought honey attracted more flies than vinegar: i.e. make WINGS safe for all professing victims - even those who want to remain in the fellowship. I realize now it's not honey or vinegar but another (sadly) all too common substance that attracts the most flies. The WINGS team has changed over the years, back then there were some hard core exes on the WINGS team. (I don't mean Scott Ross). It is interesting that WINGS felt the need to post a disclaimer about the "Breaking the Silence" Stories; “WINGS” administrators take no responsibility for the accuracy of these statements. The opinions expressed, and testimonies received by WINGS are published in good faith of truth and accuracy. These statements, although published on this website, do not reflect the administrators views or opinions." Why were there not some "hard core" Professing people or Overseers or Workers addressing the CSA issues in an open and honest way? Why did they not start their OWN website to help victims of CSA? Were it not for the coverups and inaction and basic ignorance and lack of compassion and understanding of the Overseers and Workers, there would have been no NEED for Wings to begin with. This is actually what needs to be done for the 2x2s to address all of the abuse within the meetings. Create a website to reach all of the 2x2 victims, recognize their stories, recognize the varieties of 2x2 abuse, encourage all crimes to be reported, dis-associate with the 2x2 predators, and pray for the victims (help them heal however is possible). Be a great start, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 11:46:31 GMT -5
Why were there not some "hard core" Professing people or Overseers or Workers addressing the CSA issues in an open and honest way? Why did they not start their OWN website to help victims of CSA? Were it not for the coverups and inaction and basic ignorance and lack of compassion and understanding of the Overseers and Workers, there would have been no NEED for Wings to begin with. This is actually what needs to be done for the 2x2s to address all of the abuse within the meetings. Create a website to reach all of the 2x2 victims, recognize their stories, recognize the varieties of 2x2 abuse, encourage all crimes to be reported, dis-associate with the 2x2 predators, and pray for the victims (help them heal however is possible). Be a great start, anyway. Sorry Kwizzer, this won't work. Too sensible!
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Post by ts on Jun 28, 2013 22:11:32 GMT -5
Well said, Cherie. I know what I believed and taught. At one time in my life, I would have been up batting for Linford, Jesse and emy and virgo and kiwi and noels.
I would have soaked in every justification and cliche that the Workers use to explain things away and to keep from making obvious connections between history, exclusivity and CSA. I would have isolated the incidents of CSA to one individual separating the individuals actions from the rest of the group and not taken any responsibility myself for preaching false doctrine(which I believed to be true). I would have draped a cloth around the injury and separated the injured part of the body from the rest of the body, just like the workers do to the victims. You forgot to include Scott, What and maybe some others, not 'innies.' Have you forgiven yourself for preaching doctrine that you didn't know was false? Have you contacted all the people who listened to your "untrue" doctrine to ask forgiveness and steer them in the right direction? Do you hold workers who didn't know the dangers of CSA to a different standard from yourself and refuse to forgive them? Consider these rhetorical questions because I already know the gist of your answers. After all, Mr. Grey concludes that doctrine you taught makes the fellowship you were in a "particularly dangerous cult." I openly confess and repent of believing and teaching false doctrine. I would be glad to stand up in front of ANY and EVERY convention crowd and do so. It is impossible to contact all the people who listened to me. Impossible. I could BARELY get in touch with the few workers that I managed to reach and speak to about the false doctrine. You can imagine how much they wanted to hear about it. I have posted Alan Anderson's response to false teaching before and will gladly do it again if you like. Yes, I do ask that the Friends and Workers would be steered in the right direction and come into fellowship with the rest of the body of Christ. I do not hold Workers to any different standard than myself. I do not refuse to forgive them. In fact, forgiveness is not the issue. I am simply presenting the truth of the Gospel to the Workers and the Workers are presenting a false gospel that is powerless in many cases and destructive in many cases. It is not simply individuals who are destructive. It is the doctrine and the fruit of that doctrine lived out in them that is destructive. I know that the Workers are familiar with that message because they preach it to "the world" but do not apply it to themselves. I have indeed forgiven myself for believing and teaching untrue doctrine while in the Work. I do believe that the doctrine is destructive especially to the weak. If you are strong in the doctrine, you don't need a physician..or Jesus. I don't know anything about Irvine Grey's book. I have not followed that thread very closely and it really does not interest me apart from the fact that I saw an opportunity to make a quick buck off of Clearday by accepting a free book from Irving and selling it second hand to CD. Other than that, I am out of the loop on that one. The names I listed with yours, emy, are the staunch 2x2s who believe and respond and defend the 2x2s like I used to when I was in the Work....back when I was teaching and living false doctrine that I was taught ....and what is believed by EVERY SINGLE Worker(because there are no married ones ).
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Post by quizzer on Jun 29, 2013 0:33:37 GMT -5
This is actually what needs to be done for the 2x2s to address all of the abuse within the meetings. Create a website to reach all of the 2x2 victims, recognize their stories, recognize the varieties of 2x2 abuse, encourage all crimes to be reported, dis-associate with the 2x2 predators, and pray for the victims (help them heal however is possible). Be a great start, anyway. Sorry Kwizzer, this won't work. Too sensible! It won't work for the meetings because it's too responsible. Also too Christ-like, because it involves taking care of others, focusing on the weak and vulnerable among us, and being of service to those who truly need us.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 10:09:20 GMT -5
Sorry Kwizzer, this won't work. Too sensible! It won't work for the meetings because it's too responsible. Also too Christ-like, because it involves taking care of others, focusing on the weak and vulnerable among us, and being of service to those who truly need us. This utter hopelessness of expecting 2x2ism to ever subordinate their own prime interests in the preservation of the illusion of 'the perfect way' -- for any genuine interests in (past or future) CSA victims makes this recent 'sell out' to 2x2 opinion, a major tragedy for the cause of CSA within 2x2ism. For the moment, these stories are still welcome to a link from Wings to Proboards -- but they are no longer welcome on the Wings site itself, that has hosted them previously. (Complaints from 2x2ism as to suitability of the writings, and complaints from 2x2ism of the writers 'ulterior motives' (system critical) were accepted and given as the reason for the move) -- A flirt with 2x2ism, that has become a betrayal of the very people the site professes to support. How could anyone encourage victims to share their stories with a site that uses these stories as a bartering chip to win plus points in 2x2 opinion? How much further out in the periphery will these stories end up next time 2x2ism complains? Will these writings continue to be an 'embarrassment' to 2x2ism and to Wings even just as a link? I doubt if this policy of appeasement is going to solve any problems at all!! and it is a clear insult to victims that have shared their stories!
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Post by quizzer on Jun 30, 2013 5:52:17 GMT -5
It won't work for the meetings because it's too responsible. Also too Christ-like, because it involves taking care of others, focusing on the weak and vulnerable among us, and being of service to those who truly need us. This utter hopelessness of expecting 2x2ism to ever subordinate their own prime interests in the preservation of the illusion of 'the perfect way' -- for any genuine interests in (past or future) CSA victims makes this recent 'sell out' to 2x2 opinion, a major tragedy for the cause of CSA within 2x2ism. For the moment, these stories are still welcome to a link from Wings to Proboards -- but they are no longer welcome on the Wings site itself, that has hosted them previously. (Complaints from 2x2ism as to suitability of the writings, and complaints from 2x2ism of the writers 'ulterior motives' (system critical) were accepted and given as the reason for the move) -- A flirt with 2x2ism, that has become a betrayal of the very people the site professes to support. How could anyone encourage victims to share their stories with a site that uses these stories as a bartering chip to win plus points in 2x2 opinion? How much further out in the periphery will these stories end up next time 2x2ism complains? Will these writings continue to be an 'embarrassment' to 2x2ism and to Wings even just as a link? I doubt if this policy of appeasement is going to solve any problems at all!! and it is a clear insult to victims that have shared their stories! Truly, if 2x2s had a "perfect Way," they would have started WINGS to begin dealing with all of the issues in the meetings. They would be able to deal with their culture, and with outside perceptions of their culture. It's truly sad that 2x2s want to have authority over sites like WINGS and Telling the Truth, but take on none of the responsibility.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 7:18:30 GMT -5
This utter hopelessness of expecting 2x2ism to ever subordinate their own prime interests in the preservation of the illusion of 'the perfect way' -- for any genuine interests in (past or future) CSA victims makes this recent 'sell out' to 2x2 opinion, a major tragedy for the cause of CSA within 2x2ism. For the moment, these stories are still welcome to a link from Wings to Proboards -- but they are no longer welcome on the Wings site itself, that has hosted them previously. (Complaints from 2x2ism as to suitability of the writings, and complaints from 2x2ism of the writers 'ulterior motives' (system critical) were accepted and given as the reason for the move) -- A flirt with 2x2ism, that has become a betrayal of the very people the site professes to support. How could anyone encourage victims to share their stories with a site that uses these stories as a bartering chip to win plus points in 2x2 opinion? How much further out in the periphery will these stories end up next time 2x2ism complains? Will these writings continue to be an 'embarrassment' to 2x2ism and to Wings even just as a link? I doubt if this policy of appeasement is going to solve any problems at all!! and it is a clear insult to victims that have shared their stories! Truly, if 2x2s had a "perfect Way," they would have started WINGS to begin dealing with all of the issues in the meetings. They would be able to deal with their culture, and with outside perceptions of their culture. It's truly sad that 2x2s want to have authority over sites like WINGS and Telling the Truth, but take on none of the responsibility.Good news. There is no need to be sad anymore. That was strictly an unfounded rumour about WINGS and it ain't true. Not even close. Might be true about TTT. That would be sad if true.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 12:28:33 GMT -5
It's truly sad that 2x2s want to have authority over sites like WINGS and Telling the Truth, but take on none of the responsibility. Good news. There is no need to be sad anymore. That was strictly an unfounded rumour about WINGS and it ain't true. Not even close. Might be true about TTT. That would be sad if true. [/quote] But Clearday --- Wasn't it reported by Wings leadership that some content (victims stories) was removed from the Wings site because 2x2ism found it offensive? Obviously Wings leadership has accepted the 2x2 view on CSA -- making the site a completely farse as far helping the issue at all. As well a new insult to 2x2 CSA victims.
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