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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 10, 2013 11:37:51 GMT -5
A friend told me yesterday of how she had to answer her niece who had said to her that she knew that her dad was in heaven. The man that had died was the brother of my friend, and she replied, "If good men are in heaven, then yes, he will be in heaven. But, I don't think that he is because he never responded to the gospel when he had the opportunity." Needless to say, the niece became VERY angry at that. But my professing friend was unapologetic.
Now, I ask you, does anyone think that that niece is going to suddenly decide, "You know, my aunt is correct. I need to start going to gospel meetings and be a part of God's one true fellowship."? I am guessing that it is possible, just as possible as building a snowman in hell.
I hope that no one gets angry with my professing friend for honestly saying what the doctrine is. I applaud her- like I applaud Lyle Schober- for being honest and open to all about the doctrine. I do not agree with our support the doctrine, but I admire those that don't lie about it to "outsiders" just to beguile them into joining our fellowship.
The title of this thread could have also been: "William Irvine's Doctrine - Dividing Families for over 100 Years"
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Post by fixit on Jun 10, 2013 14:18:22 GMT -5
100 years ago William Irvine was starting to lose his grip on the fellowship. Next year will be the centenary of his ousting, so we can't blame him entirely for everything that's wrong.
If exclusivity is related to the degree of difficulty in joining - and I believe it is - then William Irvine was much less exclusive than today's workers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2013 15:41:16 GMT -5
Exclusivity is like walking on eggshells. They do it very carefully. Yet they add in the we don't judge part.
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Post by rational on Jun 11, 2013 0:00:12 GMT -5
The title of this thread could have also been: "William Irvine's Doctrine - Dividing Families for over 100 Years" Or "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years".
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 11, 2013 8:01:25 GMT -5
The title of this thread could have also been: "William Irvine's Doctrine - Dividing Families for over 100 Years" Or "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years". I see very few families in main stream Christian denominations that are divided. I see MANY in the 2x2 fellowship. Do you think that the lady should have told her niece that he dad probably wasn't in heaven? (play along- I know you don't believe in heaven.) Do you think that it was wise? Do you think that she was just being honest? Here is a title for you: "Atheism - Disbelieving in God until the Death Bed since the Beginning of Time"
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Post by quizzer on Jun 11, 2013 9:02:38 GMT -5
The title of this thread could have also been: "William Irvine's Doctrine - Dividing Families for over 100 Years" Or "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years". Geez - look what happens when Christians start allowing atheists to post. They start developing persecution complexes.
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Post by rational on Jun 11, 2013 12:19:01 GMT -5
I see very few families in main stream Christian denominations that are divided. I see MANY in the 2x2 fellowship. Think about Ireland. Jesus knew about the possibility - Luke 12:51-53 or Matthew 10:34-37. I believe honesty is the best case. I do not believe in the paranormal so there was never an issue of going to heaven or hell. I probably would have tried to ease the situation by saying that the father would be where he believed he should be. Why do theists think that atheists will suddenly start believing in a paranormal being in times of stress or at the point of death? If there was any evidence that the paranormal being existed or had any power the atheist would have become a theist. On your deathbed, would you suddenly start believing in paranormal beings, perhaps the FSM, in the odd chance they could provide a ticket to heaven, a concept that you don't even believe in?
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Post by matisse on Jun 11, 2013 15:43:46 GMT -5
Or "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years". Geez - look what happens when Christians start allowing atheists to post. They start developing persecution complexes. " They".....the Christians? That's a bit harsh....I would say only some of the Christians on TMB act like they're being persecuted when atheists post! Re. "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years"....I largely agree with Rational. Any doctrine that declares, “This is the Only Way, anyone not following it is Doomed” by that declaration erects a dividing wall between its adherents and everyone else. The common (though not universal) Christian declaration, “Through Christ Alone” is divisive in this way. To be fair, some of the more progressive forms of Christianity are leaving behind the divisive beliefs and IMO, the blanket statement about Christianity isn't completely accurate. I don’t know of any comparable atheistic or agnostic doctrine that promises "Doom," “Eternal Separation” or other such "Big Uh-Oh" for anyone who is not atheistic or agnostic.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 11, 2013 18:38:15 GMT -5
Or "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years". I see very few families in main stream Christian denominations that are divided. I see MANY in the 2x2 fellowship. Do you think that the lady should have told her niece that he dad probably wasn't in heaven? (play along- I know you don't believe in heaven.) Do you think that it was wise? Do you think that she was just being honest? Here is a title for you: "Atheism - Disbelieving in God until the Death Bed since the Beginning of Time" Perhaps not today, as much as the past.
However looking at the history of Christianity., families weren't just divided, but fought wars with one another
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Post by fred on Jun 11, 2013 20:03:59 GMT -5
Too true! I remember when I was growing up the Catholics in my town held a very strong anti-protestant stance. (Mind, some was reciprocated but usually only in defence). There would be a great ruckus if a young Catholic person was to marry a protestant, and there would always be a degree of shunning involved. About the turn of the century a work colleague had a daughter who married a protestant and the family would not speak with her for a long time. A very 'devout' Catholic family yet I never ever detected an ounce of spirituality there.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 12, 2013 6:53:23 GMT -5
The title of this thread could have also been: "William Irvine's Doctrine - Dividing Families for over 100 Years" Or "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years". Rational Or Many who profess to be christians act very differently than what Jesus taught. Where is the love? I know a long sentence in place of the short pointed sentence you crafted Rational. I think both describes many folks ken
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 12, 2013 8:25:57 GMT -5
Or "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years". Rational Or Many who profess to be christians act very differently than what Jesus taught. Where is the love? I know a long sentence in place of the short pointed sentence you crafted Rational. I think both describes many folks ken Exactly, Ken. Rational kind of proves my point with his Northern Ireland reference - man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love. Not so Christ, who said that His disciples would love their enemies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 8:49:02 GMT -5
Rational Or Many who profess to be christians act very differently than what Jesus taught. Where is the love? I know a long sentence in place of the short pointed sentence you crafted Rational. I think both describes many folks ken Exactly, Ken. Rational kind of proves my point with his Northern Ireland reference - man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love. Not so Christ, who said that His disciples would love their enemies. Note that your argument is that one could say the same for the F&W organization, which is that "man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love"......which is the same as rational's argument. "Same same but different". Exclusivity is ugly no matter where it is. In Christianity, it's just a bigger pond than the little 2x2 mud puddle.
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Post by quizzer on Jun 12, 2013 9:32:21 GMT -5
Geez - look what happens when Christians start allowing atheists to post. They start developing persecution complexes. " They".....the Christians? That's a bit harsh....I would say only some of the Christians on TMB act like they're being persecuted when atheists post! Re. "Christianity - Dividing Families for 2000 Years"....I largely agree with Rational. Any doctrine that declares, “This is the Only Way, anyone not following it is Doomed” by that declaration erects a dividing wall between its adherents and everyone else. The common (though not universal) Christian declaration, “Through Christ Alone” is divisive in this way. To be fair, some of the more progressive forms of Christianity are leaving behind the divisive beliefs and IMO, the blanket statement about Christianity isn't completely accurate. I don’t know of any comparable atheistic or agnostic doctrine that promises "Doom," “Eternal Separation” or other such "Big Uh-Oh" for anyone who is not atheistic or agnostic. I did mean the atheists by "they." Sorry, bad joke. Didn't realize it translated the other way.
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2013 11:48:35 GMT -5
Exactly, Ken. Rational kind of proves my point with his Northern Ireland reference - man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love. Not so Christ, who said that His disciples would love their enemies. Note that your argument is that one could say the same for the F&W organization, which is that "man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love"......which is the same as rational's argument. "Same same but different". Exclusivity is ugly no matter where it is. In Christianity, it's just a bigger pond than the little 2x2 mud puddle. I think it's time to realize that humanity is the biggest pool of all and love for all of life and respect for our places in it is the answer to a lot of problems we have today. This feeling of 'separateness' from everything else leads to mistreatment of the rest of 'it'. We are truly connected and interdependent with our universe and everything in it. Take away one aspect of it and everything would change. We truly don't have the luxury of seeing one group as more 'worthy' than another.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 12, 2013 14:36:51 GMT -5
Note that your argument is that one could say the same for the F&W organization, which is that "man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love"......which is the same as rational's argument. "Same same but different". Exclusivity is ugly no matter where it is. In Christianity, it's just a bigger pond than the little 2x2 mud puddle. I think it's time to realize that humanity is the biggest pool of all and love for all of life and respect for our places in it is the answer to a lot of problems we have today. This feeling of 'separateness' from everything else leads to mistreatment of the rest of 'it'. We are truly connected and interdependent with our universe and everything in it. Take away one aspect of it and everything would change. We truly don't have the luxury of seeing one group as more 'worthy' than another. Snow We are all alike unworthy
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 12, 2013 18:35:44 GMT -5
I think it's time to realize that humanity is the biggest pool of all and love for all of life and respect for our places in it is the answer to a lot of problems we have today. This feeling of 'separateness' from everything else leads to mistreatment of the rest of 'it'. We are truly connected and interdependent with our universe and everything in it. Take away one aspect of it and everything would change. We truly don't have the luxury of seeing one group as more 'worthy' than another. Snow We are all alike unworthy Ken, that is only because that you have bought into the whole system of the religion that has conditioned you to believe you are "unworthy" & must be saved.
The whole system has developed though the years because of there is a portion of society that wants to control you & what better way than to make you feel "unworthy" if you don't listen & obey.
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2013 18:53:37 GMT -5
I think it's time to realize that humanity is the biggest pool of all and love for all of life and respect for our places in it is the answer to a lot of problems we have today. This feeling of 'separateness' from everything else leads to mistreatment of the rest of 'it'. We are truly connected and interdependent with our universe and everything in it. Take away one aspect of it and everything would change. We truly don't have the luxury of seeing one group as more 'worthy' than another. Snow We are all alike unworthyKen, that's where we disagree. I believe we are all worthy. We are all capable of so much. We just need to let go of the teachings that tell us we are not worthy because they limit us. That's how I see it anyway.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 12, 2013 18:59:53 GMT -5
100 years ago William Irvine was starting to lose his grip on the fellowship. Next year will be the centenary of his ousting, so we can't blame him entirely for everything that's wrong. If exclusivity is related to the degree of difficulty in joining - and I believe it is - then William Irvine was much less exclusive than today's workers. The poison that started the messes was the Witness doctrine.it gave the workers a boost in numbers of new converts simply because the claim that the workers were the ONLY way for people to be saved and that they were the living witnesses, etc. Otherwords they begin to take on more then the 2x2 itinerant celebate ministry, but took on that which was Jesus' part in the workings of salvation. They got the big head!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 12, 2013 19:04:07 GMT -5
Snow We are all alike unworthyKen, that's where we disagree. I believe we are all worthy. We are all capable of so much. We just need to let go of the teachings that tell us we are not worthy because they limit us. That's how I see it anyway. Snow, If we all are worthy just because, then the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was in vain! Of course I understand that that does not hold water for you......but it is our unworthiness that causes us to turn to Jesus Christ for cleansing and forgiveness of sin so that in the end we WILL be worthy of eternal salvation...and that we in the mean time can enjoy being made free of the bondage of sin!
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Post by fixit on Jun 12, 2013 19:09:55 GMT -5
100 years ago William Irvine was starting to lose his grip on the fellowship. Next year will be the centenary of his ousting, so we can't blame him entirely for everything that's wrong. If exclusivity is related to the degree of difficulty in joining - and I believe it is - then William Irvine was much less exclusive than today's workers. The poison that started the messes was the Witness doctrine.it gave the workers a boost in numbers of new converts simply because the claim that the workers were the ONLY way for people to be saved and that they were the living witnesses, etc. Otherwords they begin to take on more then the 2x2 itinerant celebate ministry, but took on that which was Jesus' part in the workings of salvation. They got the big head! Why do you say there was a boost in numbers? Worker numbers were increasing by around 50% per year at the beginning of last century BEFORE the Living Witness Doctrine took hold. A lot of good workers left or were booted as result of the LWD, including several hymn authors. I expect a lot of good friends as well.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 12, 2013 19:12:33 GMT -5
Too true! I remember when I was growing up the Catholics in my town held a very strong anti-protestant stance. (Mind, some was reciprocated but usually only in defence). There would be a great ruckus if a young Catholic person was to marry a protestant, and there would always be a degree of shunning involved. About the turn of the century a work colleague had a daughter who married a protestant and the family would not speak with her for a long time. A very 'devout' Catholic family yet I never ever detected an ounce of spirituality there. I was well received and honored by the Catholics that owned and operated the hospital I worked many years in.....anytime there was a special mtg. or conv. or even a funeral, it was no problem for me to get off.....when we were just a small hospital it was a lot easier to do such, for when we moved into the new bigger hospital, we often just had to make sure we traded days off with someone else, in order to do what we wanted to do about taking a day off for such religious activities. But still there was no back flap about it as long as we did the trading and made sure the schedule was well covered for that day.....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 12, 2013 19:16:29 GMT -5
The poison that started the messes was the Witness doctrine.it gave the workers a boost in numbers of new converts simply because the claim that the workers were the ONLY way for people to be saved and that they were the living witnesses, etc. Otherwords they begin to take on more then the 2x2 itinerant celebate ministry, but took on that which was Jesus' part in the workings of salvation. They got the big head! Why do you say there was a boost in numbers? Worker numbers were increasing by around 50% per year at the beginning of last century BEFORE the Living Witness Doctrine took hold. A lot of good workers left or were booted as result of the LWD, including several hymn authors. I expect a lot of good friends as well. As I tried to say, the Living Witness doctrine is what got the 2x2 fellowship part of the religion because this is what created the "Only true way"......it was all a lie, but it trapped many people into the fellowship simnply because they thought they'd found the "only true way that led them to heaven"! I know my grandparents and even most of their children testified that they were taught and retaught that the 2x2 religion was a continuation of the Acts of the Apostles....and that it IS still considered "the Jesus way"....which is a misnomer as well for Jesus does not possess the "way". HE IS THE Way......
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2013 19:28:12 GMT -5
Ken, that's where we disagree. I believe we are all worthy. We are all capable of so much. We just need to let go of the teachings that tell us we are not worthy because they limit us. That's how I see it anyway. Snow, If we all are worthy just because, then the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was in vain! Of course I understand that that does not hold water for you......but it is our unworthiness that causes us to turn to Jesus Christ for cleansing and forgiveness of sin so that in the end we WILL be worthy of eternal salvation...and that we in the mean time can enjoy being made free of the bondage of sin! Yes, I realize it means that to you and I'm not trying to devalue that for you. I just see it very differently. I don't feel humanity needed to be cleansed or forgiven. I don't see how someone else dying gives the rest of us a free pass. It is still everyone's individual responsibility to grow in understanding, compassion and love for one another. Many people do that without ever believing in Jesus or the reason for his death. In many ways, from how I see things, Jesus did die 'in vain'. It wasn't necessary because even if there was some need for cleansing or forgiveness, (which I don't agree with) God could have found a much better way of doing it than having his own son killed. I see that story to be from the mindset of that day and age where blood sacrifice was thought to be desirable for atonement. That certainly would never be acceptable anymore.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 13, 2013 4:40:52 GMT -5
Snow I appreciate your opinion and perspective on humanity as being capable of great things. Even love. The history of humanity is very different. The recorded history of humanity shows a selfish ,prideful and arrogant history.I dare say many have used religion to forward their own agenda. They in my opinion were not christian even though they might call themselves as such. God has shown through history a very clear path that he desires for those seeking a relationship with Him. If humanity has this great capacity to love and act appropriatly what would be the motivating force.? I suspect some folks act appropriatly not because they believe in God so much as they have replaced God with their intellectual capacity, financial success or pride in who they have become. JMT ken
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 13, 2013 7:09:05 GMT -5
Exactly, Ken. Rational kind of proves my point with his Northern Ireland reference - man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love. Not so Christ, who said that His disciples would love their enemies. Note that your argument is that one could say the same for the F&W organization, which is that "man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love"......which is the same as rational's argument. "Same same but different". Exclusivity is ugly no matter where it is. In Christianity, it's just a bigger pond than the little 2x2 mud puddle. Exactly. But some organizations are a little more unlike Christ than others- the F&Ws really miss the mark on how they treat their non-professing neighbors and family.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 7:20:24 GMT -5
Note that your argument is that one could say the same for the F&W organization, which is that "man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love"......which is the same as rational's argument. "Same same but different". Exclusivity is ugly no matter where it is. In Christianity, it's just a bigger pond than the little 2x2 mud puddle. Exactly. But some organizations are a little more unlike Christ than others- the F&Ws really miss the mark on how they treat their non-professing neighbors and family. As someone else has mentioned, the hostility between Catholics and other Christians was once really quite terrible. I have seen it on a personal level in families where the people are all nice people but cut off their children because they went Protestant. I don't know what fundamentalist Catholics are like these days because there are so few around as the vast majority of Western Catholics are peripheral at best. Those peripheral Catholic people generally don't let religion get in the way of human relationships. Other than the Catholic hostility as well as hostility to some non-mainstream Christian sects (such as Mormons and JW's) the reason why it is hidden in the larger group of Christians is that most neighbours and family of mainstream Christians are nominal Christians of some sort, and pass the grade. However, the hostility between Christians and other religions (such as Islam) isn't pretty either. I would suggest that hostility toward Islam is much the same with mainstream Christians as it is with F&Ws.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 13, 2013 7:22:57 GMT -5
Exactly. But some organizations are a little more unlike Christ than others- the F&Ws really miss the mark on how they treat their non-professing neighbors and family. As someone else has mentioned, the hostility between Catholics and other Christians was once really quite terrible. I have seen it on a personal level in families where the people are all nice people but cut off their children because they went Protestant. I don't know what fundamentalist Catholics are like these days because there are so few around as the vast majority of Western Catholics are peripheral at best. Those peripheral Catholic people generally don't let religion get in the way of human relationships. Other than the Catholic hostility as well as hostility to some non-mainstream Christian sects (such as Mormons and JW's) the reason why it is hidden in the larger group of Christians is that most neighbours and family of mainstream Christians are nominal Christians of some sort, and pass the grade. However, the hostility between Christians and other religions (such as Islam) isn't pretty either. I would suggest that hostility toward Islam is much the same with mainstream Christians as it is with F&Ws. I agree. Add Scientologists to the mix as well. But this is a F&W board, and I and my family have been affected by it personally (the shunning and cruelty) that was supported by 2 OVERSEERS. Therefore, I choose to focus on the F&W responsibility in the matter.
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