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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 15, 2013 19:29:04 GMT -5
Rational Where are you coming from? I usually understand your post but this stuff for you is far out!. You might want to examine how do I know who is a Christian. Along with that is a christian a christian because he says so? Define what you mean with the word Christian Rational I have appreciated you thoughtful post which may trouble many whose faith, hope and life is firmly in the hands of God There is a propensity for your posts along with DMG that requires believers to prove their faith. Sometimes even belittle faith as something for weak minds and foolish people. The additional putdown of implying that you come from the real world and believers some other place which fails your logic check. Your very first response of where you are coming from implys you have it right and others have it wrong.This is much like a workers response to questions that are painfully not answered. ken I am coming from the real world where people make claims and then when they are proved to be incorrect the original premise is altered. See aboveHow do you know who has faith? I accept your word that you have faith. I suppose you accept a person who says they are poor or honest or are in the Kingdom of God.The claim is that if you have faith, anything is possible. Whose claim are we talking about. I believe Pauls writting to the Romans (Romans 8:28) sheds a little light on ones faith All things( good or bad ) work for good for those who love God. That has been my experience and I have confidence that He has got me covered in every way. Do all things come the way I want them . NoOf course, when it turns out that with faith everything is not possible the excuse is that the person did not have faith. I don't beleive that faith questions the actions and experiences when they are contrary to the way they hoped for and accept Gods will in the matter.How do you know if someone who believes they are a Christian and claims to be a christian is a christian? You have to take their word. No you don't. Christains either show fruit or they have some other spirit. Romans 8:7,8&9 gives a clear picture of where our intelligence might lead usThe claim is made that christianity has done great and good things for humanity Jesus spoke to those who claimed to have done great things and His response was I never knew youColumbus stated he was a christian. The church accepted him as a christian. You state the church but it was like the leadership not the Body who had accepted himHe forced the natives to convert, often on pain of death. He captured and enslaved them. This is generally not considered to be a good or great thing. So you argue he was a Christian. His actions among many others was contrary to what jesus taught. Rational you need to sort these things out And the response is that either Columbus was not really a christian, or the church did not approve of these things, or some other excuse to say that it was not christians doing these things. Rational you are an intelligent man and I am sure you can eventually sort this things outand conclude that words are cheep but actions tell the real story. So welcome to my reality ken
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 15, 2013 22:43:37 GMT -5
[quote source="/post/534608/thread" timestamp=" I believe Pauls writting to the Romans (Romans 8:28) sheds a little light on ones faith All things( good or bad ) work for good for those who love God. That has been my experience and I have confidence that He has got me covered in every way. Do all things come the way I want them . No I don't beleive that faith questions the actions and experiences when they are contrary to the way they hoped for and accept Gods will in the matter. ken[/quote] Ken, I'm just taking a couple of your remarks to rational.
This is the way that I see what occurs when things don't happen the way the way that Christians like yourself had hoped or prayed for.
You say that you just accept it as "God's will."
And so you do.
But do you ever consider that whichever happens, what you wanted to happen or didn't want to happen, that it is you that has yourself covered?
Not God that has you covered, but you, you have covered your belief in God!
You have no proof what-so-ever that there was any god there to start with!
I know of what I speak because I used that same kind of thinking at one time!
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Post by rational on Jun 16, 2013 0:25:23 GMT -5
I suppose you accept a person who says they are poor or honest or are in the Kingdom of God. Until proved false. I was quoting Jesus. Anything you ask for in his name shall be granted. Exactly. Jesus said if you have faith all things are possible. Move mountains. Heal the sick. If someone tells me they have faith and believe in Jesus I believe them. And if what they are saying is true why not ask that cancer be cured to relieve the suffering of millions? Again, you are applying exactly the kind of limits that I was talking about. Jesus never mentioned any restrictions. You have added them to explain why people of faith cannot, for example, demonstrate that prayer works. And the use of words like 'fruit' and 'spirit' as metaphors mean that any exact definition cannot be pinned down. Ken, using your reality there are no christians. Face it, no one has the faith to move a mountain. No one has yet to demonstrate that anything asked in Jesus' name happens at a degree different from randomness. And that is fine. It is a matter of belief. But to change the ground rules when the data is contrary to the belief doesn't explain anything. I am afraid I haven't expressed myself very well and will take your advice and take some time to sort it out.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 16, 2013 5:49:33 GMT -5
Rational You have expressed yourself very well and made your position clear. Sorry that what I have written doesn't have the clarity that yours does but then again Fatih makes no sense in your reality and in mine it is life itself. Ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 16, 2013 5:54:18 GMT -5
[quote source="/post/534608/thread" timestamp=" I believe Pauls writting to the Romans (Romans 8:28) sheds a little light on ones faith All things( good or bad ) work for good for those who love God. That has been my experience and I have confidence that He has got me covered in every way. Do all things come the way I want them . No I don't beleive that faith questions the actions and experiences when they are contrary to the way they hoped for and accept Gods will in the matter. ken Ken, I'm just taking a couple of your remarks to rational.
This is the way that I see what occurs when things don't happen the way the way that Christians like yourself had hoped or prayed for.
You say that you just accept it as "God's will."
And so you do.
But do you ever consider that whichever happens, what you wanted to happen or didn't want to happen, that it is you that has yourself covered?
Not God that has you covered, but you, you have covered your belief in God!
You have no proof what-so-ever that there was any god there to start with!
I know of what I speak because I used that same kind of thinking at one time![/quote] DMG They say when a person senses that he is not being heard he raises his voice. Do I sense this whith your rainbow colors and large font? You know what I am saying. Listen you can always return and I know He will welcome you home. ken
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Post by snow on Jun 16, 2013 10:46:58 GMT -5
However, one doesn't need to be a Christian to have these you qualities called the "fruit of the spirit"
I know many people like that who do not believe in any god!
I agree with that too. I've often said that the same vague 'spirit' people go on about so much in meetings and some churches can also be found in any decent beer garden or political rally or military unit. Yes, and the opposite of those qualities can be found in any religious organization too, along with beer gardens, political rally's or military units. It's not the organization, it's the people in the organizations.
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Post by blandie on Jun 16, 2013 12:49:26 GMT -5
Yes, and the opposite of those qualities can be found in any religious organization too, along with beer gardens, political rally's or military units. It's not the organization, it's the people in the organizations. Thats true too and a great point. Thinking about it more it seems that those fuzzy-warmy feelings that get called spiritual fruit or true food or whatever - and you think thats being shared by everyone and it isn't so. Theres those who are sitting there nodding or even enthusiatical and who are just going through the paces for their own reasons and for some it is their jobs or expected of them to keep their position in the pack. Just sayin that you can't even say everyone is good or bad or really sharing anything with you in those situations even if everyone claims or feels like they are on the same page. So many people can get passionate or even weepy on cue and make an atmosphere that seems spiritual or uplifting and even thats not a good yardstick to measure what goes on behind the scenes or masks. It could just be their job to do that - doesn't matter if in a bar or classroom or meeting or church or political rally or any kind of group - and their part in leading the crowd could be for good or for bad. I'm at the point where I see my part is to not be led around by the nose and not to do that to other people either and I've been aware for a long time that emotional responses are a way leaders - and even family and friends - do that in every sort of situations.
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Post by snow on Jun 16, 2013 12:55:34 GMT -5
Yes, and the opposite of those qualities can be found in any religious organization too, along with beer gardens, political rally's or military units. It's not the organization, it's the people in the organizations. Thats true too and a great point. Thinking about it more it seems that those fuzzy-warmy feelings that get called spiritual fruit or true food or whatever - and you think thats being shared by everyone and it isn't so. Theres those who are sitting there nodding or even enthusiatical and who are just going through the paces for their own reasons and for some it is their jobs or expected of them to keep their position in the pack. Just sayin that you can't even say everyone is good or bad or really sharing anything with you in those situations even if everyone claims or feels like they are on the same page. So many people can get passionate or even weepy on cue and make an atmosphere that seems spiritual or uplifting and even thats not a good yardstick to measure what goes on behind the scenes or masks. It could just be their job to do that - doesn't matter if in a bar or classroom or meeting or church or political rally or any kind of group - and their part in leading the crowd could be for good or for bad. I'm at the point where I see my part is to not be led around by the nose and not to do that to other people either and I've been aware for a long time that emotional responses are a way leaders - and even family and friends - do that in every sort of situations. It seems to me that since we can't know the circumstances of others, their true beliefs etc., that it is not justified to judge them. My responsibility in life is to make sure about my attitude, capability to love and be compassionate. We simply cannot not know the hearts of others.
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Post by blandie on Jun 16, 2013 13:30:43 GMT -5
It seems to me that since we can't know the circumstances of others, their true beliefs etc., that it is not justified to judge them. My responsibility in life is to make sure about my attitude, capability to love and be compassionate. We simply cannot not know the hearts of others. No we can't - one way or the other. A person who seems good and caring may not be. A person who seems to be bad and self-centered may not be. The fuzzy feelings and spirit are just one more tool in the toolbox of those who would rather take the shortcut of manipulation over education and real interaction. That sort of thing is a hindrance and a setup for falling for still more con-artists. I may not be qualified to judge people or their inner thoughts and motives but that doesn't mean that I'm not to be discerning. I know we can all love and be compasionate without a throwing bunch of falderal that has been and often becomes again a stumbling block to the very people we love and want to thrive and grow.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 16, 2013 13:55:00 GMT -5
Ken, I'm just taking a couple of your remarks to rational.
This is the way that I see what occurs when things don't happen the way the way that Christians like yourself had hoped or prayed for.
You say that you just accept it as "God's will."
And so you do.
But do you ever consider that whichever happens, what you wanted to happen or didn't want to happen, that it is you that has yourself covered?
Not God that has you covered, but you, you have covered your belief in God!
You have no proof what-so-ever that there was any god there to start with!
I know of what I speak because I used that same kind of thinking at one time! DMG They say when a person senses that he is not being heard he raises his voice. Do I sense this whith your rainbow colors and large font? You know what I am saying. Listen you can always return and I know He will welcome you home. ken[/quote] Ken, I'm just taking a couple of your remarks to rational.
This is the way that I see what occurs when things don't happen the way the way that Christians like yourself had hoped or prayed for.
You say that you just accept it as "God's will."
And so you do.
But do you ever consider that whichever happens, what you wanted to happen or didn't want to happen, that it is you that has yourself covered?
Not God that has you covered, but you, you have covered your belief in God!
You have no proof what-so-ever that there was any god there to start with!
I know of what I speak because I used that same kind of thinking at one time! DMG They say when a person senses that he is not being heard he raises his voice. Do I sense this whith your rainbow colors and large font? You know what I am saying. Listen you can always return and I know He will welcome you home.ken[/quote] Ken, you are right! I know you arenot listening!
I doubt that you would ever really listen no matter how loud I would shout!
But you can stop your proselytizing! It Won't work!
When one has gained the ability to use, as Hercule Poirot says, "the little gray cells" instead of just blindingly following antiquated, archaic ideas of religion, why would they ever want to go back to that kind of control by an mythological creation?
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