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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 7:40:35 GMT -5
As someone else has mentioned, the hostility between Catholics and other Christians was once really quite terrible. I have seen it on a personal level in families where the people are all nice people but cut off their children because they went Protestant. I don't know what fundamentalist Catholics are like these days because there are so few around as the vast majority of Western Catholics are peripheral at best. Those peripheral Catholic people generally don't let religion get in the way of human relationships. Other than the Catholic hostility as well as hostility to some non-mainstream Christian sects (such as Mormons and JW's) the reason why it is hidden in the larger group of Christians is that most neighbours and family of mainstream Christians are nominal Christians of some sort, and pass the grade. However, the hostility between Christians and other religions (such as Islam) isn't pretty either. I would suggest that hostility toward Islam is much the same with mainstream Christians as it is with F&Ws. I agree. Add Scientologists to the mix as well. But this is a F&W board, and I and my family have been affected by it personally (the shunning and cruelty) that was supported by 2 OVERSEERS. Therefore, I choose to focus on the F&W responsibility in the matter. The point is, it's all much the same except that the 2x2 exclusivity is more primitive and more exclusive. F&Ws exclude about 7 billion people while mainstream Christianity "only" excludes 5-6 billion people. Understanding exclusivity in a broader sense will be valuable in understanding a more focused analysis of 2x2 exclusivity.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 13, 2013 8:57:55 GMT -5
Exactly, Ken. Rational kind of proves my point with his Northern Ireland reference - man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love. Not so Christ, who said that His disciples would love their enemies. Note that your argument is that one could say the same for the F&W organization, which is that "man made controlling organizations tend to exert control via force rather than love"......which is the same as rational's argument. "Same same but different". Exclusivity is ugly no matter where it is. In Christianity, it's just a bigger pond than the little 2x2 mud puddle. We can easily be reassured that Jesus' way of keeping those whom would follow him in his interchange with Peter in the last chapter of John's Gospel. "Loveth thou me?" And we as adults found that love does cover all sins in a real relationship even between us and someone else...think about those marriages that have gone through some hard and trying times but have maintained the sanctity of the marriage and that though one partner may have been wrong in some measure, the other partner forgives because they love their mate......and yes, I know that many marriages these days do not repair themselves because of the "hardness of their hearts".
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 13, 2013 9:03:28 GMT -5
Snow We are all alike unworthy Ken, that is only because that you have bought into the whole system of the religion that has conditioned you to believe you are "unworthy" & must be saved.
The whole system has developed though the years because of there is a portion of society that wants to control you & what better way than to make you feel "unworthy" if you don't listen & obey.
Those of us that believe in what the bible teaches of course are "buying" into the "conditioning" that that belief does form within us. I read something the other morning that kind of fits in here and backs up that idea. I believe it was Paul who mentioned that we are not to think better of of ourselves, for in doing so we would fail in coming under the cleansing by the blood of Christ and we would miss out on that eternal life that such belief gives us....the faith in Jesus Christ and all that name means is what we believe gives us eternal life......without it, we are purely lost and given over to reprobate hearts and minds in which we can and often do think better of ourselves...at least that's my take of it.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 13, 2013 9:10:22 GMT -5
As someone else has mentioned, the hostility between Catholics and other Christians was once really quite terrible. I have seen it on a personal level in families where the people are all nice people but cut off their children because they went Protestant. I don't know what fundamentalist Catholics are like these days because there are so few around as the vast majority of Western Catholics are peripheral at best. Those peripheral Catholic people generally don't let religion get in the way of human relationships. Other than the Catholic hostility as well as hostility to some non-mainstream Christian sects (such as Mormons and JW's) the reason why it is hidden in the larger group of Christians is that most neighbours and family of mainstream Christians are nominal Christians of some sort, and pass the grade. However, the hostility between Christians and other religions (such as Islam) isn't pretty either. I would suggest that hostility toward Islam is much the same with mainstream Christians as it is with F&Ws. I agree. Add Scientologists to the mix as well. But this is a F&W board, and I and my family have been affected by it personally (the shunning and cruelty) that was supported by 2 OVERSEERS. Therefore, I choose to focus on the F&W responsibility in the matter. Sacerdotal, I'm very, very sorry that things turned out for you and your family as they did...but maybe someday you can see that maybe God brought all of that about to free you of some of the wrong teachings within the 2x2 religion! God is who we all should look to, but the 2x2 workers taught us to look to our physical and outward appearances....Jesus never said one word about that did He? Even at the darkest hours didn't he only ask Peter if he loved Him?
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Post by rational on Jun 13, 2013 9:27:17 GMT -5
We can easily be reassured that Jesus' way of keeping those whom would follow him in his interchange with Peter in the last chapter of John's Gospel. "Loveth thou me?" And we as adults found that love does cover all sins in a real relationship even between us and someone else...think about those marriages that have gone through some hard and trying times but have maintained the sanctity of the marriage and that though one partner may have been wrong in some measure, the other partner forgives because they love their mate......and yes, I know that many marriages these days do not repair themselves because of the "hardness of their hearts". Is it the hardness of their hearts or their desire to to be true to themselves? Of course, I have no idea what hardness of one's heart actually means. Many marriages today do not "repair" themselves because people hold to the integrity of their beliefs rather than yield to the peer pressure to 'fit in'. Wrapping up the actions and happenings in a biblical tale does nothing to mitigate the damage the exclusiveness of groups can cause.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 13, 2013 10:07:34 GMT -5
We can easily be reassured that Jesus' way of keeping those whom would follow him in his interchange with Peter in the last chapter of John's Gospel. "Loveth thou me?" And we as adults found that love does cover all sins in a real relationship even between us and someone else...think about those marriages that have gone through some hard and trying times but have maintained the sanctity of the marriage and that though one partner may have been wrong in some measure, the other partner forgives because they love their mate......and yes, I know that many marriages these days do not repair themselves because of the "hardness of their hearts". Is it the hardness of their hearts or their desire to to be true to themselves? Of course, I have no idea what hardness of one's heart actually means. Many marriages today do not "repair" themselves because people hold to the integrity of their beliefs rather than yield to the peer pressure to 'fit in'. Wrapping up the actions and happenings in a biblical tale does nothing to mitigate the damage the exclusiveness of groups can cause. Rat, I believe in the strength of "love" to bring about "repair" when things have gone wrong....this is where hardness of heart comes in and that's because the "love" is not there and perhaps true love was never there.....often it also is loving one's self over one's marriage partner!
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Post by rational on Jun 13, 2013 10:31:30 GMT -5
Rat, I believe in the strength of "love" to bring about "repair" when things have gone wrong....this is where hardness of heart comes in and that's because the "love" is not there and perhaps true love was never there.....often it also is loving one's self over one's marriage partner! I gathered that. And you have the easy point of view - if it doesn't work it is because the people involved did not have the right kind or amount of love. The woman who decided to leave her emotionally abusive husband simply did not have the right kind of 'love' to summit and allow the abuse to continue for the sake of the marriage - for the love of her partner.
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Post by ts on Jun 13, 2013 14:05:09 GMT -5
Perhaps it was the husband's heart that was hard and did not have the right amount of love. It could have even been both who were selfish and the woman was just carrying on a passive aggressive lifestyle she had learned from her parents that drew abuse. Hard heartedness and lack of love can come from both sides even though one of them suffers the physical abuse.
It is worth noting that abuse is not the only reason for divorce.
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Post by snow on Jun 13, 2013 16:46:44 GMT -5
Snow I appreciate your opinion and perspective on humanity as being capable of great things. Even love. The history of humanity is very different. The recorded history of humanity shows a selfish ,prideful and arrogant history.I dare say many have used religion to forward their own agenda. They in my opinion were not christian even though they might call themselves as such. God has shown through history a very clear path that he desires for those seeking a relationship with Him. If humanity has this great capacity to love and act appropriatly what would be the motivating force.? I suspect some folks act appropriatly not because they believe in God so much as they have replaced God with their intellectual capacity, financial success or pride in who they have become. JMT ken Sure, our history is not showing much in the way of love. We don't have a great track record. Religion has been a huge part of history. It is only in our current time that there are people who are turning away from a belief in any of the Gods that our earth has worshiped for many many centuries. I have a great deal of respect for the Humanist organizations because they have the welfare of humanity as their priority. Not the protection of their God. I think Unitarians are also a group that should be respected as they also are inclusive and are not trying to protect their God's dogmas, rules and regulations. In fact, they also attract many people who do not believe there is a god. There is no way for the world's various religious groups to come to some kind of understanding because their very beliefs make it impossible. A Christian cannot allow that a Muslim is right or the reverse. There is no middle ground and there cannot be. We must really think about what is the most important thing. I believe that is love, respect and compassion and an understanding that we are all in this together and should stand together. That would mean letting go of the old beliefs about God and what is thought God wants and recognize how much it is dividing humanity instead of what it is supposed to be doing, uniting humanity. We've done it religions way for a long time. It isn't working as far as I can see. Maybe it's time to change what we believe and think. Try something new. Man is capable, they just have to make the choice to live with the highest choice for humanity as their goal. That means getting rid of many of the rules and doing what works as a guideline and releasing what is not working. We can do this. I know we can. But will we? Will we cling to all the old beliefs that have divided us or will we be willing to bring in new beliefs that do support a world where people are important, not seen as hopeless sinners that can't help how they are?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 13, 2013 21:34:28 GMT -5
Snow I appreciate your opinion and perspective on humanity as being capable of great things. Even love. The history of humanity is very different. The recorded history of humanity shows a selfish ,prideful and arrogant history.I dare say many have used religion to forward their own agenda. They in my opinion were not christian even though they might call themselves as such. God has shown through history a very clear path that he desires for those seeking a relationship with Him. If humanity has this great capacity to love and act appropriately what would be the motivating force.? I suspect some folks act appropriately not because they believe in God so much as they have replaced God with their intellectual capacity, financial success or pride in who they have become. JMT ken Sure, our history is not showing much in the way of love. We don't have a great track record. Religion has been a huge part of history. It is only in our current time that there are people who are turning away from a belief in any of the Gods that our earth has worshiped for many many centuries. I have a great deal of respect for the Humanist organizations because they have the welfare of humanity as their priority. Not the protection of their God. I think Unitarians are also a group that should be respected as they also are inclusive and are not trying to protect their God's dogmas, rules and regulations. In fact, they also attract many people who do not believe there is a god. There is no way for the world's various religious groups to come to some kind of understanding because their very beliefs make it impossible. A Christian cannot allow that a Muslim is right or the reverse. There is no middle ground and there cannot be. We must really think about what is the most important thing. I believe that is love, respect and compassion and an understanding that we are all in this together and should stand together. That would mean letting go of the old beliefs about God and what is thought God wants and recognize how much it is dividing humanity instead of what it is supposed to be doing, uniting humanity. We've done it religions way for a long time. It isn't working as far as I can see. Maybe it's time to change what we believe and think. Try something new. Man is capable, they just have to make the choice to live with the highest choice for humanity as their goal. That means getting rid of many of the rules and doing what works as a guideline and releasing what is not working. We can do this. I know we can. But will we? Will we cling to all the old beliefs that have divided us or will we be willing to bring in new beliefs that do support a world where people are important, not seen as hopeless sinners that can't help how they are? Snow, I agree. This should be the goal, (choice to live with the highest choice for humanity as their goal), the "motivating force" that Ken asked about.
Humanists already strive for this. I've been a member of the Humanists for many years. Unitarians-Universalist's do as well. The UU's would be the only church that I would consider joining- I know several great people in our local church.
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Post by snow on Jun 13, 2013 22:05:33 GMT -5
Yes, I joined a Humanist group here about 5 years ago and have attended functions within the Unitarian Church, though never the actual service part. Still can't bring myself to go to something that even resembles a church service. I like the projects and causes that I can get involved with in both organizations. I especially like the sense of a community that is worldwide and open to anyone who wants to participate.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 14, 2013 5:11:35 GMT -5
Snow/DMG
You believe that humanist have defined the perfect charter for mankind as (choice to live with the highest choice for humanity as their goal) Please translate these crafted words so that I can understand and start acting on these noble goals. I submit that serving God as Jesus taught is the highest choice but know thats the rub.
I believe the disdain for religious groups has to do with lumping those who have used organizations for their own agenda in with those who are sincerely serving God. Sorta the broad brush stroke approach to make your point. I submit that no man in history has had the effect Jesus has had. Perhaps there is a message in that alone. Perhaps some notable folks would say that Jesus has had the biggest effect on humanist history. JMT ken
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 5:33:49 GMT -5
Rat, I believe in the strength of "love" to bring about "repair" when things have gone wrong....this is where hardness of heart comes in and that's because the "love" is not there and perhaps true love was never there.....often it also is loving one's self over one's marriage partner! I gathered that. And you have the easy point of view - if it doesn't work it is because the people involved did not have the right kind or amount of love. The woman who decided to leave her emotionally abusive husband simply did not have the right kind of 'love' to summit and allow the abuse to continue for the sake of the marriage - for the love of her partner. Yep, that is sometimes referred to as a lack of compromising love or uncompromising love. Lots of people get taken advantage of in the name of love, especially " family love."
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Post by rational on Jun 14, 2013 7:35:19 GMT -5
I gathered that. And you have the easy point of view - if it doesn't work it is because the people involved did not have the right kind or amount of love. The woman who decided to leave her emotionally abusive husband simply did not have the right kind of 'love' to summit and allow the abuse to continue for the sake of the marriage - for the love of her partner. Yep, that is sometimes referred to as a lack of compromising love or uncompromising love. Lots of people get taken advantage of in the name of love, especially " family love." This is something that happens often in discussions. A statement like "Love can resolve the problems people have in marriages" but then when it is shown in case after case that love simply does not have this power the answer is "It wasn't the right kind of love". "Faith can heal the sick." and when the person dies the explanation is that they didn't have the right kind of faith. "Christians have worked to make the world a better place for humanity". But when the atrocities that thave been done in the name of Jesus are pointed out the reply is that those who did that were not 'real' christians.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 14, 2013 8:25:12 GMT -5
Yep, that is sometimes referred to as a lack of compromising love or uncompromising love. Lots of people get taken advantage of in the name of love, especially " family love." This is something that happens often in discussions. A statement like "Love can resolve the problems people have in marriages" but then when it is shown in case after case that love simply does not have this power the answer is "It wasn't the right kind of love". "Faith can heal the sick." and when the person dies the explanation is that they didn't have the right kind of faith. "Christians have worked to make the world a better place for humanity". But when the atrocities that thave been done in the name of Jesus are pointed out the reply is that those who did that were not 'real' Christians. Rational Where are you coming from? I usually understand your post but this stuff for you is far out!. You might want to examine how do I know who is a Christian. Along with that is a christian a christian because he says so? Define what you mean with the word Christian ken
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Post by rational on Jun 14, 2013 10:10:25 GMT -5
I believe the disdain for religious groups has to do with lumping those who have used organizations for their own agenda in with those who are sincerely serving God. I am not certain disdain is the correct word. I think there are some who would rather develop their own moral compass and decide what they feel the best course of action is rather than live under the direction of a religious group. The leaders of most, if not all, religious groups claim to be following some paranormal being and delivering the rules and code of behavior to the followers. For the followers it is the easiest way - the rules are given and all they have to do is follow, usually without question. This may indeed be true. Cities have been built and destroyed, great works of art created, people enslaved, people freed, millions slaughtered, care provided to millions, etc. In the balance, has there been more good than bad? However, there are figures in history that were far older and therefore had a wider reaching influence. People like Aristotle shaped the thoughts and philosophy, some of which Jesus expounded upon. Consider Homer. The influence of Homeric epics would difficult to measure but they continue to influence ppeople today just as they did in the centuries before Jesus. Hammurabi who lived 20 centuries before Jesus is seen as the foundation of much of the biblical laws as well as the teachings of Jesus. And then there are the nameless people who wrote the Mesopotamian versions of myths that were incorporated into the bible and also influenced many people, including Jesus. And then there is the host of people who have made discoveries that have changed the way people live. Pythagoras, Euclid, Copernicus, Newton, Tycho Brahe, etc. Tough to evaluate.
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Post by rational on Jun 14, 2013 10:26:14 GMT -5
This is something that happens often in discussions. A statement like "Love can resolve the problems people have in marriages" but then when it is shown in case after case that love simply does not have this power the answer is "It wasn't the right kind of love". "Faith can heal the sick." and when the person dies the explanation is that they didn't have the right kind of faith. "Christians have worked to make the world a better place for humanity". But when the atrocities that thave been done in the name of Jesus are pointed out the reply is that those who did that were not 'real' Christians. Rational Where are you coming from? I usually understand your post but this stuff for you is far out!. You might want to examine how do I know who is a Christian. Along with that is a christian a christian because he says so? Define what you mean with the word Christian ken I am coming from the real world where people make claims and then when they are proved to be incorrect the original premise is altered. How do you know who has faith? I accept your word that you have faith. The claim is that if you have faith, anything is possible. Of course, when it turns out that with faith everything is not possible the excuse is that the person did not have faith. How do you know if someone who believes they are a Christian and claims to be a christian is a christian? You have to take their word. The claim is made that christianity has done great and good things for humanity Columbus stated he was a christian. The church accepted him as a christian. He forced the natives to convert, often on pain of death. He captured and enslaved them. This is generally not considered to be a good or great thing. And the response is that either Columbus was not really a christian, or the church did not approve of these things, or some other excuse to say that it was not christians doing these things.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 14, 2013 10:32:28 GMT -5
Rational Where are you coming from? I usually understand your post but this stuff for you is far out!. You might want to examine how do I know who is a Christian. Along with that is a christian a christian because he says so? Define what you mean with the word Christian ken I am coming from the real world where people make claims and then when they are proved to be incorrect the original premise is altered. How do you know who has faith? I accept your word that you have faith. How do you know if someone who believes they are a Christian and claims to be a christian is a christian? You have to take their word. The claim is made that christianity has done great and good things for humanity Columbus stated he was a christian. The church accepted him as a christian. He forced the natives to convert, often on pain of death. He captured and enslaved them. This is generally not considered to be a good or great thing. And the response is that either Columbus was not really a christian, or the church did not approve of these things, or some other excuse to say that it was not christians doing these things. I agree with you, Rational. It is probably my good 2x2 upbringing, but, anytime I hear someone tell me that they are a Christian, then automatically I assume that they aren't. A true Christian, in my opinion, doesn't need to tell anyone that he or she is a Christian because the fruit of the Spirit should be doing the talking. Usually those that talk about being a Christian are looking for some kind of pat on the back or a free pass for something. Again, my experience. My Christian friends in other denominations are usually quiet, meek, kind, temperate, patient, loving, etc. They don't have to tell me that they are Christian or the name of the denomination or fellowship that they belong to- because it doesn't matter.
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Post by rational on Jun 14, 2013 10:47:51 GMT -5
I agree with you, Rational. It is probably my good 2x2 upbringing, but, anytime I hear someone tell me that they are a Christian, then automatically I assume that they aren't. I do not recall ever asking anyone if they were a christian and don't recall anyone telling me. I am waiting for the day when people can say what they mean and not speak using metaphors. The "fruit of the spirit" means what? Why not simply say what you mean? This is not directed only at you, Sacerdotal, but at the general use of euphemisms instead of saying what is meant. His heart was hardened. Coronary artery disease/coronary calcification/atherosclerosis? I could say it would warm the cockles of my heart to have people write and say what they mean without the use of metaphors. But I don't have bivalve mollusks in my heart so I am not certain what would be getting warm!
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 14, 2013 10:49:53 GMT -5
I agree with you, Rational. It is probably my good 2x2 upbringing, but, anytime I hear someone tell me that they are a Christian, then automatically I assume that they aren't. I do not recall ever asking anyone if they were a christian and don't recall anyone telling me. I am waiting for the day when people can say what they mean and not speak using metaphors. The "fruit of the spirit" means what? Why not simply say what you mean? This is not directed only at you, Sacerdotal, but at the general use of euphemisms instead of saying what is meant. His heart was hardened. Coronary artery disease/coronary calcification/atherosclerosis? I could say it would warm the cockles of my heart to have people write and say what they mean without the use of metaphors. But I don't have bivalve mollusks in my heart so I am not certain what would be getting warm! I did mention what the fruit of the spirit is- read my last paragraph of what I look for in people- what the bible calls the fruit of the spirit- patience, temperance, long suffering, kindness, gentleness, peaceable, love.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 14, 2013 11:13:36 GMT -5
Rat, I believe in the strength of "love" to bring about "repair" when things have gone wrong....this is where hardness of heart comes in and that's because the "love" is not there and perhaps true love was never there.....often it also is loving one's self over one's marriage partner! I gathered that. And you have the easy point of view - if it doesn't work it is because the people involved did not have the right kind or amount of love. The woman who decided to leave her emotionally abusive husband simply did not have the right kind of 'love' to summit and allow the abuse to continue for the sake of the marriage - for the love of her partner. Rat! The point I'm trying to make is that it is hardness of hearts and self love that cause an abusive husband to be....of course, if her love is not enough to change him, then yes, for safety sake, she should leave him....a person that can love should never make themselves hang onto someone that can love only themselves.....that's part of the golden rule of life.....treating one another as we would wish we were treated....and I'm sure that anytime we're faced with a constant abuse of some sort, then we'd walk away because that is what we would like others to do in that circumstance . When I say love covers all, I'm talking about those issues that a mate can make a real mistake in and when they repent as in MT.18 then those who have been offended by that mistake then can give their love to them and the chasm is eliminated. Think about the man who had his father's wife and Paul had corrected the church that was involved with this man in fellowship. He told them not to have anything to do with such things. But later after the man had repented and wished to return to fellowship with those folks, Paul advised them to forgive him and bring him into fellowship with them. Also Paul had admonished them not to rejoice over someone's else's failures!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 14, 2013 11:16:55 GMT -5
Perhaps it was the husband's heart that was hard and did not have the right amount of love. It could have even been both who were selfish and the woman was just carrying on a passive aggressive lifestyle she had learned from her parents that drew abuse. Hard heartedness and lack of love can come from both sides even though one of them suffers the physical abuse. It is worth noting that abuse is not the only reason for divorce. True~ Seems I'm hearing more excuses to be just growing apart....is this then not the sins of the world that draws people one way and their mate another?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 14, 2013 11:43:05 GMT -5
I gathered that. And you have the easy point of view - if it doesn't work it is because the people involved did not have the right kind or amount of love. The woman who decided to leave her emotionally abusive husband simply did not have the right kind of 'love' to summit and allow the abuse to continue for the sake of the marriage - for the love of her partner. Yep, that is sometimes referred to as a lack of compromising love or uncompromising love. Lots of people get taken advantage of in the name of love, especially " family love." Reminded me of one of the workers sermon about "family" love....he brought out that Abraham had called Sarah his sister, though Sarah was really his wife. He went on to say that he'd seen husbands who would have only love as a brother to a sister for their wives...perhaps when there were problems within the family....it was love, but it wasn't the love of man and wife......perhaps a bit of truth to that statement....sometimes our mates can cause us to question our love for them, but then even at that time the love just isn't gone completely but it has perhaps had the "passion" love for a mate but then the considerate "family" love is still there.....
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 14, 2013 15:54:21 GMT -5
One of the most disgusting sermons from the platform I ever heard was a worker commenting on marriage & saying that the reason women were discontent in marriage was because they had this idealized view of marriage from reading too many romance stories!
They could always give advise on family life, how to raise your children, have a good marriage etc. when they done neither one & actually knew diddly-squat about it!
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Post by kencoolidge on Jun 15, 2013 7:09:37 GMT -5
I do not recall ever asking anyone if they were a christian and don't recall anyone telling me. I am waiting for the day when people can say what they mean and not speak using metaphors. The "fruit of the spirit" means what? Why not simply say what you mean? This is not directed only at you, Sacerdotal, but at the general use of euphemisms instead of saying what is meant. His heart was hardened. Coronary artery disease/coronary calcification/atherosclerosis? I could say it would warm the cockles of my heart to have people write and say what they mean without the use of metaphors. But I don't have bivalve mollusks in my heart so I am not certain what would be getting warm! I did mention what the fruit of the spirit is- read my last paragraph of what I look for in people- what the bible calls the fruit of the spirit- patience, temperance, long suffering, kindness, gentleness, peaceable, love. SD I love your words that you did not feel someone needs to say they are a Christian but they actions speak for them. In many translations there are differences in the words used but surley not the action for example-Temperance and self control, patience and perseverence, meekness and gentlenes. In each case the words translate to action by the individual. Old statement Actions speak louder than words. I submit that Rational can make statements about some who said they were Chritians but actions were not. Doesn't float well in the arguement when compared to words versus action. JMT ken
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 15, 2013 15:58:16 GMT -5
I did mention what the fruit of the spirit is- read my last paragraph of what I look for in people- what the bible calls the fruit of the spirit- patience, temperance, long suffering, kindness, gentleness, peaceable, love. SD I love your words that you did not feel someone needs to say they are a Christian but they actions speak for them. In many translations there are differences in the words used but surley not the action for example-Temperance and self control, patience and perseverence, meekness and gentlenes. In each case the words translate to action by the individual. Old statement Actions speak louder than words. I submit that Rational can make statements about some who said they were Chritians but actions were not. Doesn't float well in the arguement when compared to words versus action. JMT ken "Temperance and self control, patience and perseverence, meekness and gentlenes."However, one doesn't need to be a Christian to have these you qualities called the "fruit of the spirit"
I know many people like that who do not believe in any god!
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 15, 2013 16:06:51 GMT -5
SD I love your words that you did not feel someone needs to say they are a Christian but they actions speak for them. In many translations there are differences in the words used but surley not the action for example-Temperance and self control, patience and perseverence, meekness and gentlenes. In each case the words translate to action by the individual. Old statement Actions speak louder than words. I submit that Rational can make statements about some who said they were Chritians but actions were not. Doesn't float well in the arguement when compared to words versus action. JMT ken "Temperance and self control, patience and perseverence, meekness and gentlenes."However, one doesn't need to be a Christian to have these you qualities called the "fruit of the spirit"
I know many people like that who do not believe in any god!
I agree with you.
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Post by blandie on Jun 15, 2013 17:03:01 GMT -5
However, one doesn't need to be a Christian to have these you qualities called the "fruit of the spirit"
I know many people like that who do not believe in any god!
I agree with that too. I've often said that the same vague 'spirit' people go on about so much in meetings and some churches can also be found in any decent beer garden or political rally or military unit.
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