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Post by quizzer on May 24, 2013 14:04:38 GMT -5
Maybe it is no win viewed through the F&W lens but to everyone else that probably is going to sound more like a rationalization to justify the practice. Added: why wouldn't friends and family want to draw them back in? or is the problem with fellowshipping with such a person that it might call into question why they were put out or left? or is it just a general problem with fellowshipping with outsiders that includes former members and if so why is it ok to fellowship with outsiders who show even the slightest interest in the meetings? I do not recall any of the F&W talking about shunning or a no-win situation in (not) dealing with exes. I do not know how everyone else would view the situation. Maybe some or many exes would see the situation as a justification. Maybe some would see the condemnation of broad brush shunning accusation as self-justification to demean and dismiss the F&W. The F&W don't discuss exe-2x2s much. That's sorta a standard practice, especially amongst the more influential 2x2s. The 2x2 disfellowship (what we call shunning) is generally done to a professing person, or a person who attends meetings and has expressed a desire to profess. These are folks where shunning serves its purpose - you want to be with us, then behave like we want you to behave. When folks have left the meetings (particularly if they left voluntarily), then the practice is simply to distance yourself from them to avoid contamination (somehow). A professing person shouldn't want to be like them, or (worse) to be seen with them. That's the best that I can describe as to how the 2x2s practice their disfellowship.
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Post by jondough on May 24, 2013 14:25:54 GMT -5
I do not recall any of the F&W talking about shunning or a no-win situation in (not) dealing with exes. I do not know how everyone else would view the situation. Maybe some or many exes would see the situation as a justification. Maybe some would see the condemnation of broad brush shunning accusation as self-justification to demean and dismiss the F&W. The F&W don't discuss exe-2x2s much. That's sorta a standard practice, especially amongst the more influential 2x2s. The 2x2 disfellowship (what we call shunning) is generally done to a professing person, or a person who attends meetings and has expressed a desire to profess. These are folks where shunning serves its purpose - you want to be with us, then behave like we want you to behave. When folks have left the meetings (particularly if they left voluntarily), then the practice is simply to distance yourself from them to avoid contamination (somehow). A professing person shouldn't want to be like them, or (worse) to be seen with them. That's the best that I can describe as to how the 2x2s practice their disfellowship. This is true Quiz, Often I'll ask parents of kids that ended up leaving the fellowship how their kids are. They always looked at me kind of shocked that I'm bringing up the subject. They will usually say that they are doing good. I'll ask them to tell them "hi" for me, and they are always kind of grateful, but a little surprised.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2013 14:41:28 GMT -5
The F&W don't discuss exe-2x2s much. That's sorta a standard practice, especially amongst the more influential 2x2s. The 2x2 disfellowship (what we call shunning) is generally done to a professing person, or a person who attends meetings and has expressed a desire to profess. These are folks where shunning serves its purpose - you want to be with us, then behave like we want you to behave. When folks have left the meetings (particularly if they left voluntarily), then the practice is simply to distance yourself from them to avoid contamination (somehow). A professing person shouldn't want to be like them, or (worse) to be seen with them. That's the best that I can describe as to how the 2x2s practice their disfellowship. This is true Quiz, Often I'll ask parents of kids that ended up leaving the fellowship how their kids are. They always looked at me kind of shocked that I'm bringing up the subject. They will usually say that they are doing good. I'll ask them to tell them "hi" for me, and they are always kind of grateful, but a little surprised. That's interesting. I must have had really good experiences in comparison to many. I can remember friends of mom's and dads asking when I was going to be visiting so that they could come see me while I was in town. I usually had quite a few people drop by my parents house when I was in town. They would also give a little money to my kids and they always seemed so glad to see me. So I don't know. I know there were others that didn't want to, but I never really thought too much about them I guess. When it came time to clean out my parents house when they went to the nursing home, I had at least 5 ladies coming and going over the few days it took helping out and they made all the difference. We had a good time actually, even though we were working. I'm sorry others have had such bad experiences.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 24, 2013 14:59:15 GMT -5
This is true Quiz, Often I'll ask parents of kids that ended up leaving the fellowship how their kids are. They always looked at me kind of shocked that I'm bringing up the subject. They will usually say that they are doing good. I'll ask them to tell them "hi" for me, and they are always kind of grateful, but a little surprised. That's interesting. I must have had really good experiences in comparison to many. I can remember friends of mom's and dads asking when I was going to be visiting so that they could come see me while I was in town. I usually had quite a few people drop by my parents house when I was in town. They would also give a little money to my kids and they always seemed so glad to see me. So I don't know. I know there were others that didn't want to, but I never really thought too much about them I guess. When it came time to clean out my parents house when they went to the nursing home, I had at least 5 ladies coming and going over the few days it took helping out and they made all the difference. We had a good time actually, even though we were working. I'm sorry others have had such bad experiences. The sad thing is Snow, I used to be one of those that would feel awkward and didn't know what to say around those that left the fellowship. It was like I was meeting up with an infidel or a dead person. Which, according to 2x2 belief, is exactly what was happening. They had turned their back on God's true servants and way, and were now marching straight toward hell. I also "knew" why the folks had left- they were unwilling to face the persecution and denying of self that were required for being in the Lord's way. As the workers and my family would say every now and then, if I wasn't facing hardships or persecution or temptation- then that meant that the devil already had me and wasn't worrying about me anymore. I no longer feel that way around exes. I now treat them as I want to be treated- and that definitely doesn't mean treating them with pity, or as if they are "lost". Just more testament to how unChristian the worker doctrine is.
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Post by quizzer on May 24, 2013 15:00:57 GMT -5
This is true Quiz, Often I'll ask parents of kids that ended up leaving the fellowship how their kids are. They always looked at me kind of shocked that I'm bringing up the subject. They will usually say that they are doing good. I'll ask them to tell them "hi" for me, and they are always kind of grateful, but a little surprised. That's interesting. I must have had really good experiences in comparison to many. I can remember friends of mom's and dads asking when I was going to be visiting so that they could come see me while I was in town. I usually had quite a few people drop by my parents house when I was in town. They would also give a little money to my kids and they always seemed so glad to see me. So I don't know. I know there were others that didn't want to, but I never really thought too much about them I guess. When it came time to clean out my parents house when they went to the nursing home, I had at least 5 ladies coming and going over the few days it took helping out and they made all the difference. We had a good time actually, even though we were working. I'm sorry others have had such bad experiences. I feel extremely fortunate for my exe-2x2 friends. As I've mentioned before, in my meeting, it makes a huge difference in taking care of older professing folks when you have good friendships with their non-professing relatives. It also just helps, in general, to have friends with similar backgrounds. Wish all the 2x2s were more open like that.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2013 15:09:25 GMT -5
That's interesting. I must have had really good experiences in comparison to many. I can remember friends of mom's and dads asking when I was going to be visiting so that they could come see me while I was in town. I usually had quite a few people drop by my parents house when I was in town. They would also give a little money to my kids and they always seemed so glad to see me. So I don't know. I know there were others that didn't want to, but I never really thought too much about them I guess. When it came time to clean out my parents house when they went to the nursing home, I had at least 5 ladies coming and going over the few days it took helping out and they made all the difference. We had a good time actually, even though we were working. I'm sorry others have had such bad experiences. The sad thing is Snow, I used to be one of those that would feel awkward and didn't know what to say around those that left the fellowship. It was like I was meeting up with an infidel or a dead person. Which, according to 2x2 belief, is exactly what was happening. They had turned their back on God's true servants and way, and were now marching straight toward hell. I also "knew" why the folks had left- they were unwilling to face the persecution and denying of self that were required for being in the Lord's way. As the workers and my family would say every now and then, if I wasn't facing hardships or persecution or temptation- then that meant that the devil already had me and wasn't worrying about me anymore. I no longer feel that way around exes. I now treat them as I want to be treated- and that definitely doesn't mean treating them with pity, or as if they are "lost". Just more testament to how unChristian the worker doctrine is. I certainly understand how that mindset could be established. We were definitely told that leaving was equal to spiritual death so I guess it could also be construed as 'dead' physically to those left behind in the system. It's funny actually how we perceive things. I felt like I was leaving them 'behind' and they felt like I was 'lost' to them. It's like a barrier comes up when you quit professing almost like the Bible talks about in heaven and hell. Those who think they are going to heaven could construe my leaving as being in hell I suppose and we are told there is a 'gap' or 'barrier'.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2013 15:10:46 GMT -5
That's interesting. I must have had really good experiences in comparison to many. I can remember friends of mom's and dads asking when I was going to be visiting so that they could come see me while I was in town. I usually had quite a few people drop by my parents house when I was in town. They would also give a little money to my kids and they always seemed so glad to see me. So I don't know. I know there were others that didn't want to, but I never really thought too much about them I guess. When it came time to clean out my parents house when they went to the nursing home, I had at least 5 ladies coming and going over the few days it took helping out and they made all the difference. We had a good time actually, even though we were working. I'm sorry others have had such bad experiences. I feel extremely fortunate for my exe-2x2 friends. As I've mentioned before, in my meeting, it makes a huge difference in taking care of older professing folks when you have good friendships with their non-professing relatives. It also just helps, in general, to have friends with similar backgrounds. Wish all the 2x2s were more open like that. I'm glad you allow them to enrich your life quizzer. I am sure they are enriched by having you as a friend too. It is always better to have a good working relationship with the family of those you are caring for.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 24, 2013 18:52:10 GMT -5
I do not recall any of the F&W talking about shunning or a no-win situation in (not) dealing with exes. I do not know how everyone else would view the situation. Maybe some or many exes would see the situation as a justification. Maybe some would see the condemnation of broad brush shunning accusation as self-justification to demean and dismiss the F&W. The F&W don't discuss exe-2x2s much. That's sorta a standard practice, especially amongst the more influential 2x2s. The 2x2 disfellowship (what we call shunning) is generally done to a professing person, or a person who attends meetings and has expressed a desire to profess. These are folks where shunning serves its purpose - you want to be with us, then behave like we want you to behave. When folks have left the meetings (particularly if they left voluntarily), then the practice is simply to distance yourself from them to avoid contamination (somehow). A professing person shouldn't want to be like them, or (worse) to be seen with them. That's the best that I can describe as to how the 2x2s practice their disfellowship. Pretty much how I've seen it. There was a man who eventually professed, but for many years he came to mtgs. with his professing wife. He was a friendly sort of fellow so he was not adverse to the 2x2 fellowship. So one spring when the workers came around for the spec. mtgs. which ours was on a Thurs. nite, held in a party room at one of the local Catholic facilities. This man came in as had done so many times, this time he didn't go with his wife to choose their seats, but left her and went over to the back of the room and cornered one of the older sister workers and told her that he was joining in this way. So he was allowed to do that since he had been in mtgs. for many years. About 2 yrs. later at conv. time he wanted to be baptized. There was another person who was a youngster, I think wanted to be baptized. Well, Sun. a.m. came around and one of the brother workers of the state went to this man and told him that they were having a baptism that morning. A sister worker had been sent to tell the youngster and her parents. This man was irate, he had come specifically to that conv. to be baptized. After the morning mtg. he cornered this brother workers and asked him just why they didn't have abaptism because the way it was worded Sat. nite it was all to be so.....the brother worker told him that he felt that he was not going to be the responsible person for baptizing someone who had not quit smoking. This man grabbed his wife and they left immediately. They neither one ever came back to that conv. It's my understanding that the overseer of the state finally said the man should be baptized if he so desired it. He was taken to the AR. river and baptized...I don't remember who did the services. It was a very vital mistake that the first worker did for it was almost the loss of the man and his wife from the fellowship! Workers do not have the right to forbid people doing anything....if the workers have instructed and spoken to the person involved according to the bible and the person still is desiring to either profess and/or be baptized or partaking of the emblems...the workers could and should say that since they told them that this or that wasn't right that that would stand before God as the witness that worker was not to be held accountable for it being the wrong thing to do.
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Post by Greg on May 24, 2013 21:24:50 GMT -5
I do not recall any of the F&W talking about shunning or a no-win situation in (not) dealing with exes. I do not know how everyone else would view the situation. Maybe some or many exes would see the situation as a justification. Maybe some would see the condemnation of broad brush shunning accusation as self-justification to demean and dismiss the F&W. The F&W don't discuss exe-2x2s much. That's sorta a standard practice, especially amongst the more influential 2x2s. The 2x2 disfellowship (what we call shunning) is generally done to a professing person, or a person who attends meetings and has expressed a desire to profess. These are folks where shunning serves its purpose - you want to be with us, then behave like we want you to behave. When folks have left the meetings (particularly if they left voluntarily), then the practice is simply to distance yourself from them to avoid contamination (somehow). A professing person shouldn't want to be like them, or (worse) to be seen with them. That's the best that I can describe as to how the 2x2s practice their disfellowship. So I can shun the F&W meetings and then complain that F&W shun me. I can "disfellowship" with the F&W and then blame them for "disfellowshipping" me.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 1:04:13 GMT -5
The F&W don't discuss exe-2x2s much. That's sorta a standard practice, especially amongst the more influential 2x2s. The 2x2 disfellowship (what we call shunning) is generally done to a professing person, or a person who attends meetings and has expressed a desire to profess. These are folks where shunning serves its purpose - you want to be with us, then behave like we want you to behave. When folks have left the meetings (particularly if they left voluntarily), then the practice is simply to distance yourself from them to avoid contamination (somehow). A professing person shouldn't want to be like them, or (worse) to be seen with them. That's the best that I can describe as to how the 2x2s practice their disfellowship. So I can shun the F&W meetings and then complain that F&W shun me. I can "disfellowship" with the F&W and then blame them for "disfellowshipping" me. bit of a quandary
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Post by blandie on May 25, 2013 2:30:15 GMT -5
So I can shun the F&W meetings and then complain that F&W shun me. I can "disfellowship" with the F&W and then blame them for "disfellowshipping" me. bit of a quandary Its not a quandry outside the F&Ws. People change the churches and denominations they attend all the time or even decide not to attend any church and still continue to have rich fellowship with the people in their former churches. Maybe many of those mean something different by fellowship than most F&Ws mean too -- laboring together to reach others or deep study and discussion that goes beyond sitting next to each other a couple times a week. As far as I've seen and whatever you call it the ties aren't as sharply broken or strained -- and probably often not broken or strained at all -- when someone breaks with most churches as they are when a person leaves or is put out of the F&Ws. That's maybe because the people continue to look at each other as christians even when they choose not to associate with -- or disagree with -- a particular church or denomination. I've seen it happen even in my limited contacts with em and think maybe others have too. Because the topic is Scientology maybe you are talking about how Scientologists treat former members similar to how F&Ws treat them. It could be the same quandry for both but I don't know any Scientology members to ask.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 5:14:05 GMT -5
Its not a quandry outside the F&Ws. People change the churches and denominations they attend all the time or even decide not to attend any church and still continue to have rich fellowship with the people in their former churches. Maybe many of those mean something different by fellowship than most F&Ws mean too -- laboring together to reach others or deep study and discussion that goes beyond sitting next to each other a couple times a week. As far as I've seen and whatever you call it the ties aren't as sharply broken or strained -- and probably often not broken or strained at all -- when someone breaks with most churches as they are when a person leaves or is put out of the F&Ws. That's maybe because the people continue to look at each other as christians even when they choose not to associate with -- or disagree with -- a particular church or denomination. I've seen it happen even in my limited contacts with em and think maybe others have too. Because the topic is Scientology maybe you are talking about how Scientologists treat former members similar to how F&Ws treat them. It could be the same quandry for both but I don't know any Scientology members to ask. actually I was answering to this from Greg So I can shun the F&W meetings and then complain that F&W shun me. I can "disfellowship" with the F&W and then blame them for "disfellowshipping" me.
but I will say this that there seems to be more concern about fellowship with one another than with God going by what is written on this board.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 5:15:32 GMT -5
we will just have to let God decide whether you are or not Sounds like you have already decided for him and you can tell that how?
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Post by quizzer on May 25, 2013 6:34:12 GMT -5
So I can shun the F&W meetings and then complain that F&W shun me. I can "disfellowship" with the F&W and then blame them for "disfellowshipping" me. bit of a quandary The practice of disfellowship within the meetings is far more than avoiding a person. It means that the 2x2s (friends/workers) will spread false gossip to you, they will avoid you or pointedly not shake your hand, the workers will single you while speaking in meetings (in private, the friends and workers will tell you in no uncertain terms how fast your soul is going to hell). You can do nothing right. Once you've left the meetings, people will just flat-out avoid you. They may still talk about you, but it is limited and quiet. C'mon, now. Both of you have professed, and Greg was a worker. How'd you discipline those 2x2s that need correcting? (It's not like you don't know the drill!)
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Post by snow on May 25, 2013 11:38:04 GMT -5
Its not a quandry outside the F&Ws. People change the churches and denominations they attend all the time or even decide not to attend any church and still continue to have rich fellowship with the people in their former churches. Maybe many of those mean something different by fellowship than most F&Ws mean too -- laboring together to reach others or deep study and discussion that goes beyond sitting next to each other a couple times a week. As far as I've seen and whatever you call it the ties aren't as sharply broken or strained -- and probably often not broken or strained at all -- when someone breaks with most churches as they are when a person leaves or is put out of the F&Ws. That's maybe because the people continue to look at each other as christians even when they choose not to associate with -- or disagree with -- a particular church or denomination. I've seen it happen even in my limited contacts with em and think maybe others have too. Because the topic is Scientology maybe you are talking about how Scientologists treat former members similar to how F&Ws treat them. It could be the same quandry for both but I don't know any Scientology members to ask. actually I was answering to this from Greg So I can shun the F&W meetings and then complain that F&W shun me. I can "disfellowship" with the F&W and then blame them for "disfellowshipping" me.
but I will say this that there seems to be more concern about fellowship with one another than with God going by what is written on this board. Since God is supposed to be the creator of all, then all is 'him', so fellowship with others, nature etc would be the same thing as communion with God. We don't need to shun certain people just because they don't believe what we do. If we shun others, are we also shunning 'God' in others? A creator of all things wouldn't be shunning its creation just because they have a different label over their names as to how they commune with him.
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Post by emy on May 25, 2013 11:53:48 GMT -5
I respect your belief that this is so (IF there is a Creator), but it is not what the majority who post here believe (God is greater than "all" His creation), therefore the rest of your statements are somewhat invalid. JMO
That said, I am opposed to shunning unless someone is physically disturbing the peaceful gathering of a group.
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Post by ts on May 25, 2013 12:06:41 GMT -5
Sacerdotal,
Did you know that Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, was a disciple of Aleister Crowely, the top Satanist of the 20th century? Aleister was also a high level Freemason.
Interesting stuff.
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Post by faune on May 25, 2013 12:15:04 GMT -5
Recently I read a book about the "Dark History of Christianity" and I was astounded by some of the things I learned about Fundamental Christianity in the beginning, which continued for centuries. Shunning was the least of the problems and their teachings prohibited enlightenment and progress for a very long time. However, in the early days of Christianity, the people were more inclined towards tolerance and acceptance of others. Some of the earlier posts just reminded me of what I read recently and it saddened my heart to see how many religions today still practice this ostracism.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2013 12:17:10 GMT -5
I respect your belief that this is so (IF there is a Creator), but it is not what the majority who post here believe (God is greater than "all" His creation), therefore the rest of your statements are somewhat invalid. JMO That said, I am opposed to shunning unless someone is physically disturbing the peaceful gathering of a group. Yes, that would be true. Unless you see yourself as 'one' with the creator the rest of what I said would be invalid. I just can't see how there could be any separation. And of course, there is that big 'if' in my world.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2013 12:21:36 GMT -5
Recently I read a book about the "Dark History of Christianity" and I was astounded by some of the things I learned about Fundamental Christianity in the beginning, which continued for centuries. Shunning was the least of the problems and their teachings prohibited enlightenment and progress for a very long time. However, in the early days of Christianity, the people were more inclined towards tolerance and acceptance of others. Some of the earlier posts just reminded me of what I read recently and it saddened my heart to see how many religions today still practice this ostracism. For the sake of the longevity of the 'system' it has always been important to get rid of those that would question the 'status quo'. When someone did this in very early man, the person became 'dead' to the tribe. This was quite a serious thing because physical survival really was reliant on being with other humans. Not too many people could survive on their own in the world. Being 'dead' meant that they would be 'invisible' to the others who were not allowed to acknowledge them in any way, even though they may be standing in front of them. It was a very effective way to control others. Sadly it hasn't faded away into the mists of time and is alive and well in organizations today.
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Post by Greg on May 25, 2013 13:48:56 GMT -5
C'mon, now. Both of you have professed, and Greg was a worker. How'd you discipline those 2x2s that need correcting? (It's not like you don't know the drill!) Being a junior worker with little worker experience, I would not be directly involved in any correction or discipline. I can recall only four incidents or situations where "corrective" matters were in place or there was disregard to the situation. 1 - A woman in North Dakota got few visits because of her TV and infrequent meeting attendance. (Perhaps she didn't mind. ) 2 - I learned in South Dakota that the workers there will visit F&W who have TV, eat their food, stay in their beds, but will not take their money. (Made no sense to me.) 3 - Tried to report a headworker's poor visiting pattern of F&W in South Dakota, but was silenced before able to mention exactly what with "___________ ____________ is a friend of mine and of good report among the brethren." 4 - Went with a senior worker to discuss possible marriage between two F&W, one of which had been married and divorced. Was revealed that the single woman we visited was pregnant. That ended the visit. I do not recall any instructions on how to interact with fringe or marginal F&W nor those that left the fellowship either willfully or forced out. I am sure I would remember that. After leaving the meetings I had no bad incidents nor unfriendly run-ins with any of the F&W. Quite friendly actually.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2013 13:56:48 GMT -5
C'mon, now. Both of you have professed, and Greg was a worker. How'd you discipline those 2x2s that need correcting? (It's not like you don't know the drill!) Being a junior worker with little worker experience, I would not be directly involved in any correction or discipline. I can recall only four incidents or situations where "corrective" matters were in place or there was disregard to the situation. 1 - A woman in North Dakota got few visits because of her TV and infrequent meeting attendance. (Perhaps she didn't mind. ) 2 - I learned in South Dakota that the workers there will visit F&W who have TV, eat their food, stay in their beds, but will not take their money. (Made no sense to me.) 3 - Tried to report a headworker's poor visiting pattern of F&W in South Dakota, but was silenced before able to mention exactly what with "___________ ____________ is a friend of mine and of good report among the brethren." 4 - Went with a senior worker to discuss possible marriage between two F&W, one of which had been married and divorced. Was revealed that the single woman we visited was pregnant. That ended the visit. I do not recall any instructions on how to interact with fringe or marginal F&W nor those that left the fellowship either willfully or forced out. I am sure I would remember that. After leaving the meetings I had no bad incidents nor unfriendly run-ins with any of the F&W. Quite friendly actually. What I find truly interesting is the vast differences in people's experiences with leaving or speaking out. I had mostly positive experiences other than the ones when I was a minor and they were trying to talk sense into me. Once I left home and it was clear I was not coming back, I seemed to be accepted for who I was and my choices were my own. Being a minor and quitting professing after 4 years was difficult though. There was a lot of pressure, shaming and quilting going on then. Looking back I understand the tactics used because they truly felt if I wasn't professing I was 'dead' to them for eternity. While it was happening though, it just felt pretty bad and I didn't understand why it mattered so much to them.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 25, 2013 14:58:09 GMT -5
C'mon, now. Both of you have professed, and Greg was a worker. How'd you discipline those 2x2s that need correcting? (It's not like you don't know the drill!) Being a junior worker with little worker experience, I would not be directly involved in any correction or discipline. I can recall only four incidents or situations where "corrective" matters were in place or there was disregard to the situation. 1 - A woman in North Dakota got few visits because of her TV and infrequent meeting attendance. (Perhaps she didn't mind. ) 2 - I learned in South Dakota that the workers there will visit F&W who have TV, eat their food, stay in their beds, but will not take their money. (Made no sense to me.) 3 - Tried to report a headworker's poor visiting pattern of F&W in South Dakota, but was silenced before able to mention exactly what with "___________ ____________ is a friend of mine and of good report among the brethren." 4 - Went with a senior worker to discuss possible marriage between two F&W, one of which had been married and divorced. Was revealed that the single woman we visited was pregnant. That ended the visit.I do not recall any instructions on how to interact with fringe or marginal F&W nor those that left the fellowship either willfully or forced out. I am sure I would remember that. After leaving the meetings I had no bad incidents nor unfriendly run-ins with any of the F&W. Quite friendly actually. At least this senior worker had the sense to know that the unborn child had rights to its' parents regardless...however in the western part of the US and other countries those senior workers would have made it known that IF the expectant couple were to get married they would be out of the mtgs., but that if they remained unwed, that their privileges in the mtgs. would continue, inspite of the evidence of fornication and/or adultery in that they had precipated their honeymoon and were expectant. I know we had a poster on her for along time that moved to CA for cancer therapy. The couple were of a d&r situations and they had a very young son. It was more or less mentioned to them that if they divorced and lived apart they could take part in the mtgs. And they made a big issue about not allowing them bread and wine either which with not giving testimony, picking a song or taking the emblems, the very young son was offended for his parents. The couple left the mtgs. because the workers made it clear they were not welcome. I think they did find a church home before the dear lady passed on.
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on May 25, 2013 17:12:58 GMT -5
..however in the western part of the US and other countries those senior workers would have made it known that IF the expectant couple were to get married they would be out of the mtgs., but that if they remained unwed, that their privileges in the mtgs. would continue, inspite of the evidence of fornication and/or adultery in that they had precipated their honeymoon and were expectant. I know we had a poster on her for along time that moved to CA for cancer therapy. The couple were of a d&r situations and they had a very young son. It was more or less mentioned to them that if they divorced and lived apart they could take part in the mtgs. And they made a big issue about not allowing them bread and wine either which with not giving testimony, picking a song or taking the emblems, the very young son was offended for his parents. The couple left the mtgs. because the workers made it clear they were not welcome. I think they did find a church home before the dear lady passed on. Sharingtheriches...sadly "in the western part of the US"...yes, I know firsthand this sadness. I am D&R and although was/am allowed to come to meetings I can't take part, cannot select a hymn, and am unable to take the emblems. Thankfully, no children are involved. Recently though it was my experience to be visited by the workers in this field which has precipitated the slow, painful, and yet informative demise of my belief in the 2X2 way. During this visit, they brought up my D&R situation and told a story about 3 other women who had been in my same situation who chose to "make it right" and leave their spouses...a 4th woman they planned on having a chat with but found it unnecessary because suddenly the woman's husband died and "God took care of it". Needless to say, my husband has informed me they are no longer welcome in our home.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 17:39:19 GMT -5
Sharingtheriches...sadly "in the western part of the US"...yes, I know firsthand this sadness. I am D&R and although was/am allowed to come to meetings I can't take part, cannot select a hymn, and am unable to take the emblems. Thankfully, no children are involved. Recently though it was my experience to be visited by the workers in this field which has precipitated the slow, painful, and yet informative demise of my belief in the 2X2 way. During this visit, they brought up my D&R situation and told a story about 3 other women who had been in my same situation who chose to "make it right" and leave their spouses...a 4th woman they planned on having a chat with but found it unnecessary because suddenly the woman's husband died and "God took care of it". Needless to say, my husband has informed me they are no longer welcome in our home. Your husband is right, and he had no other choice. No one who would advocate the break up of a good marriage should ever be allowed into that home. It's actually evil which those workers truly believe is righteousness. How messed up is that? We had the same thing happen here to a couple,and there were underaged children involved. Just as bad, some of the friends were "uncomfortable" with the D&R person even attending the meeting.
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Post by Sylvestra on May 25, 2013 17:39:45 GMT -5
Sharingtheriches...sadly "in the western part of the US"...yes, I know firsthand this sadness. I am D&R and although was/am allowed to come to meetings I can't take part, cannot select a hymn, and am unable to take the emblems. Thankfully, no children are involved. Recently though it was my experience to be visited by the workers in this field which has precipitated the slow, painful, and yet informative demise of my belief in the 2X2 way. During this visit, they brought up my D&R situation and told a story about 3 other women who had been in my same situation who chose to "make it right" and leave their spouses...a 4th woman they planned on having a chat with but found it unnecessary because suddenly the woman's husband died and "God took care of it". Needless to say, my husband has informed me they are no longer welcome in our home. SWS, I'm so sorry about this! All I can do is just shake my head at how off-base and wrong the workers are about this! To me, it is the definition of "travesty"! To make matters worse, we have heard of some who are advised to leave their present spouse and go back to the first!!! That is completely opposed to the written word of God that we have very much available to us! There really is just no excuse for this IMO!
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on May 25, 2013 17:49:28 GMT -5
Yes, it is sad and in a way almost funny (not funny ha-ha, but like a weird twist of fate). We were married before I returned to the fellowship so he was aware of my past but not too familiar with my B&R beginnings. When I returned to the fellowship he, like any logical and intelligent man, did tons of research and came to the conclusion I had joined a "cult" or at least a religion that had "cultish similarities". So, after these statements were made in HIS home, the proverbial nasty stuff hit the fan and hence his decree. But it's been good...I've started doing my own research and am working through some interesting twists and turns of life!
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Post by ts on May 25, 2013 19:19:28 GMT -5
Sacerdotal, Did you know that Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, was a disciple of Aleister Crowely, the top Satanist of the 20th century? Aleister was also a high level Freemason. Interesting stuff. William Irvine was also Freemason. Wonder if there is a connection in the similar practices in Scientology and 2x2s.
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