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Post by ts on May 22, 2013 21:22:38 GMT -5
Is that why people are shunned? So that they'll come back? That's bizarre if it's true. the shunning has probably a few different reasons that are mostly unstated. The idea is that a person who is questioning has "lost their revelation" and is, therefore, "poison" and one should not associate with them lest they also be poisoned. If they are shunned, they also will realize that they are in error and are "losing out". If they realize that, then they might come back if they have an honest heart. Of course, they will be received back if they come "in the right spirit".
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Post by matisse on May 22, 2013 22:03:56 GMT -5
Is that why people are shunned? So that they'll come back? That's bizarre if it's true. the shunning has probably a few different reasons that are mostly unstated. The idea is that a person who is questioning has "lost their revelation" and is, therefore, "poison" and one should not associate with them lest they also be poisoned. If they are shunned, they also will realize that they are in error and are "losing out". If they realize that, then they might come back if they have an honest heart. Of course, they will be received back if they come "in the right spirit". One message I heard many times growing up was that anyone who left meetings could never be truly happy. Cutting a person off from their friends and family through shunning is one way to enforce that "prophecy" since it's likely to cause the person being shunned some real unhappiness. On the other side, the shunners are insulated from seeing any evidence that might call the "prophecy" into question. My family didn't shun me, nor did the people I grew up knowing. Only one person - the mother of some of my childhood friends - turned on her heel and walked away when she saw me at convention (I was visiting for a day). It hurt. I can't imagine the pain of a full shunning.
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Post by What Hat on May 22, 2013 22:54:46 GMT -5
There are similarities between organizational behaviour techniques in Scientology, the friends and the Apple Computer Corporation, for that matter. But they are quite different from the friends in many ways. For example, they take all your money and ask you to dissociate from your family; two things I haven't seen among the friends at all. Would you write your skeptical post to Jenna Miscavige-Hill and tell her that the Scientologists really aren't that different than the Apple Computer company? That she WASN'T separated from her brothers by the Scientologists leaders? Or her parents? Does the Apple computer company do that? Are you really trying to say that the workers separating my parents from myself and their grandchildren is something that the Apple Computer company would do? Or that the Apple Computer Company tells their employees that they may only marry other Apple Computer Company employees, or if they are in management, they cannot be married if they wish to remain in management or if they are in management, they have signed on for life- as the Scientologists and the Workers do? Are you seriously telling me that you have not heard that the workers TAKE THE ENTIRE ESTATES OF SOME OF THE FRIENDS WHEN THEY DIE? That is money. A lot of money. And the overseer of California had drawn up the Codicil to wills that stated that the estates were for HIS SOLE UNCONTROLLED USE. Are you seriously telling me that you have not heard of the workers suppressing the friends that know of fornication by the overseers- and when the friends talked about it- they were stripped of their part in meeting- but the overseer was allowed to continue to be an overseer? Are you seriously telling me that the Apple Computer Company would allow for sexual harassment like that- if so- then perhaps you need to refresh your memory of what happened to the former HP Computer Company CEO. Are you seriously telling me that the Apple Computer Company would condone divorce of an employee because the employee is married to someone that doesn't work for the Apple Computer Company- which the workers and the Scientologists do. Have we all lost our heart for the victims of these crazy cults/sects? Comparison of Apple with a cultFoxConn (Apple partner) employee suicides
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2013 23:14:09 GMT -5
didn't know i had been anywhere
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 7:42:04 GMT -5
Is that why people are shunned? So that they'll come back? That's bizarre if it's true. Actually yes. I had a worker explain the procedure to me in great detail about 10 years ago. He also gave an example of how he successfully deployed the technique on his own parents and forced them to change their behaviour. He appeared to wholeheartedly believe it was the right thing to do. It's not only that they will cause people to come back. It is used to force behavioural changes in people and is commonly seen in kindergarten playgrounds and in successive years among children. "Timmie won't do it my way so I won't talk to him or give him any candy until he does." And on it goes. Of course, it is a form of bullying and all it accomplishes in many cases is to cause hurt and hard feelings. Once that occurs, the victim is then classed as "bitter" and discarded altogether. If the person submits to the bully, it is deemed successful and proof of God working. This is one of the weirder (and nastiest) attributes of 2x2ism.
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Post by quizzer on May 23, 2013 10:20:06 GMT -5
Is that why people are shunned? So that they'll come back? That's bizarre if it's true. I would also offer that 2x2 disfellowship (shunning) is used so that the shunned person considers how much they'll lose in the fellowship if they behave in a way that 2x2s don't like. For instance, no close friendships within the meetings, no visits from friends or workers, no special privileges from the workers, no ability to have a meeting in the home, division between you and family members. This is considerable for anyone born and raised a 2x2. However, as the meetings are shrinking and there's fewer young folks than ever before, it's not so scary to lose close acquaintance with hard-line workers and older friends.
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Post by blandie on May 23, 2013 13:39:11 GMT -5
Shunning also would have to be a little hint to the friends what they risk losing if they go too far in questioning or making waves. Bully is a good word for it. Youngers are more adept at breaking with their friends and family as it goes along with getting on with making their lives and marrying. The pressure is still there. All of them do some of that and often return after shaking things up. Older people have more to lose -- fellowship with children as well as parents and making friendships isn't as easy.
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Post by Greg on May 23, 2013 13:44:36 GMT -5
How about the exes shunning the F&W? Does that happen? Any designed reason for that?
You know this is pretty much a no win situation. If any F&W visit the exes it is said to rekindle old feelings, an attempt to draw them back in. Yet if they do not visit, then it is a shunning, an attempt to draw them back in.
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Post by blandie on May 23, 2013 13:52:32 GMT -5
Maybe it is no win viewed through the F&W lens but to everyone else that probably is going to sound more like a rationalization to justify the practice.
Added: why wouldn't friends and family want to draw them back in? or is the problem with fellowshipping with such a person that it might call into question why they were put out or left? or is it just a general problem with fellowshipping with outsiders that includes former members and if so why is it ok to fellowship with outsiders who show even the slightest interest in the meetings?
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Post by snow on May 23, 2013 15:00:17 GMT -5
didn't know i had been anywhere Good thing I was here then.... You might never have known!! Just teasing you Virgo.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2013 15:02:10 GMT -5
Is that why people are shunned? So that they'll come back? That's bizarre if it's true. Actually yes. I had a worker explain the procedure to me in great detail about 10 years ago. He also gave an example of how he successfully deployed the technique on his own parents and forced them to change their behaviour. He appeared to wholeheartedly believe it was the right thing to do. It's not only that they will cause people to come back. It is used to force behavioural changes in people and is commonly seen in kindergarten playgrounds and in successive years among children. "Timmie won't do it my way so I won't talk to him or give him any candy until he does." And on it goes. Of course, it is a form of bullying and all it accomplishes in many cases is to cause hurt and hard feelings. Once that occurs, the victim is then classed as "bitter" and discarded altogether. If the person submits to the bully, it is deemed successful and proof of God working. This is one of the weirder (and nastiest) attributes of 2x2ism. Well that is rather a nasty mean thing to 'consciously' do! Bullying is a very apt description of it if they do it to manipulate. I guess that's why some of the friends wouldn't let their kids play alone with me and needed their parents around so I didn't contaminate their kids.
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Post by faune on May 23, 2013 15:14:57 GMT -5
So sorry, I thought this was about Scientology (bless their hearts) and the logic errors employed in linking them to my church. That's what I call "willful pollution." Bert, Here is a chart to help you provide meaningful feedback. If your response cannot fit in one of the top 3 sections of the pyramid, you are really not adding anything meaningful to the discussion. Thanks for your consideration. I love this chart! What a neat pyramid to determine the nature of a post to a thread here on line! Thanks for sharing!!
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 23, 2013 17:06:14 GMT -5
I know the explanation I've heard about there being some of even the workers and friends who will not be saved comes from the "many are called but few are chosen." This pharse is NOT speaking about those who are saved, but it is speaking to the children of Israel and the "remnant" that God has kept for Himself. It also is speaking about those 144,000 seen with Jesus in Revs. and it goes on to speak of how many out of each tribe of Israel that are in the "remnant" of God's chosen. Also the explanation also has used "strait is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it." Since Jesus is the creator of all things, I think what he calls "few" does not match up of what we define as "few"......I believe that Jesus was speaking about Himself in that "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life." in that phrase of there being a "strait gate..." which means that there is only ONE WAY to enter into the kingdom of heaven and that is through Jesus Christ as the "gate or the strait gate" and also the "...way is narrow." Again Jesus is the narrow way....He said that if any man tries to slip into the kingdom of heaven other then through Himself that that person is a robber and a thief. Well, it was pretty plain. The Workers who have spoken this at convention are speaking to mostly Friends and Workers. They have even said bluntly, "Half of you will not make it to heaven." And we know how they feel about "the world"...especially the religious world. They are definitely preaching a narrow way. The friends and workers themselves cannot tell you if they are going to make it or not. They cannot, for the most part, tell you definitely that they are saved. You can make all sorts of assumptions about what the Workers mean, but if they are not plain and clear enough in their teaching at convention, they are simply not effective teachers and do not have a clear message. All the more reason to not regard their message. And, yes, there ARE robbers and thieves who have slipped in among the Workers who are preaching deception. The job of the Workers(and I know because I was one for 12 years) i s to tell exactly what they believe about Jesus. I know what the Workers and Friends believe about Jesus. I am an authority on their doctrine. I know that they preach and I preached that the idea that "the world" has about Jesus is false and they are just talking about a man NAMED Jesus but it is not the Jesus, the saviour of the world that we know in the 2x2 fellowship. They are talking about a false Jesus that they made up for their own convenience. It would be interesting, I'm sure, to see who out of the 2x2 religion ends up in heaven...again Wm. Lewis mentioned that we would likely be surprised at who we will see in heaven, but actually the biggest surprise would be who we DON"T see in heaven! I'm sorry that people have to make Jesus be something for their own convenience when actually the Lamb of God is so very very precious...IMO!
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Post by Greg on May 23, 2013 17:15:21 GMT -5
Maybe it is no win viewed through the F&W lens but to everyone else that probably is going to sound more like a rationalization to justify the practice. Added: why wouldn't friends and family want to draw them back in? or is the problem with fellowshipping with such a person that it might call into question why they were put out or left? or is it just a general problem with fellowshipping with outsiders that includes former members and if so why is it ok to fellowship with outsiders who show even the slightest interest in the meetings? I do not recall any of the F&W talking about shunning or a no-win situation in (not) dealing with exes. I do not know how everyone else would view the situation. Maybe some or many exes would see the situation as a justification. Maybe some would see the condemnation of broad brush shunning accusation as self-justification to demean and dismiss the F&W.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 23, 2013 17:20:49 GMT -5
Do all professing people, Friends and Workers, believe in Jesus? Are ALL of the Friends and Workers saved? Hmmmm.....If you think they are by virtue of being in Meeting and believing in Jesus, then you believe contrary to what I have heard Workers preach. I have heard Workers say at convention that the World will not be saved and many of the Friends and Workers will not be saved. What do you think? I believe you will agree with the Worker that not all of the Friends and Workers will be saved... And that will get us back on topic And if you disagree with the Workers who preach that, I also do not agree with the lies that the Workers preach...And we are back on topic. ts, I'm not bert, but here's my take on this... All the 2x2's and others who believe Jesus died in their place are "saved". Some, however, have no reward coming based on "the rest of the story" of their lives. Edy, I would question whether most 2x2'ers would actually have enough faith in Jesus Christ to warrant Him granting them grace...simply because most of them feel they have to do something in order to be saved...I mean somethings like keeping their hair long. over modest in dress, always going to mtgs. with a sober face and being so quiet and fearful...instead of inviting the Holy Spirit to join them all in spirit...they work themselves up into dithers to where they cry nearly every testimony sayiong just how unworthy they are and that they desire and aim to be doing MORE works in their lives in order that God will grant them grace. The stickler here is that the faith is not really in Jesus Christ, it is doubting that Jesus really did "Finish it all"......They just got to do more and be more.....adding debt against God so that He will be forced to give them eternal life! Many do not realize that what makes eternal life theirs, is a gift from God to start with...faith is a gift from heaven, and God appreciates those who know that and also who ask that He might increase their faith...they are acknowledging that they are unable to increase their faith on their own, there is nothing within the power of man that would increase the faith in their hearts....God is who does that and when one feels like Jesus' death on the cross is NOT "finishing it" then they are saying that Jesus' sacrifice is NOT enough!
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Post by Greg on May 23, 2013 17:31:33 GMT -5
If "It is finished" means it is finished, then one must not have to do anything.
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Post by Sylvestra on May 23, 2013 17:33:36 GMT -5
ts, I'm not bert, but here's my take on this... All the 2x2's and others who believe Jesus died in their place are "saved". Some, however, have no reward coming based on "the rest of the story" of their lives. Edy, I would question whether most 2x2'ers would actually have enough faith in Jesus Christ to warrant Him granting them grace...simply because most of them feel they have to do something in order to be saved...I mean somethings like keeping their hair long. over modest in dress, always going to mtgs. with a sober face and being so quiet and fearful...instead of inviting the Holy Spirit to join them all in spirit...they work themselves up into dithers to where they cry nearly every testimony sayiong just how unworthy they are and that they desire and aim to be doing MORE works in their lives in order that God will grant them grace. The stickler here is that the faith is not really in Jesus Christ, it is doubting that Jesus really did "Finish it all"......They just got to do more and be more.....adding debt against God so that He will be forced to give them eternal life! Many do not realize that what makes eternal life theirs, is a gift from God to start with...faith is a gift from heaven, and God appreciates those who know that and also who ask that He might increase their faith...they are acknowledging that they are unable to increase their faith on their own, there is nothing within the power of man that would increase the faith in their hearts....God is who does that and when one feels like Jesus' death on the cross is NOT "finishing it" then they are saying that Jesus' sacrifice is NOT enough! I would agree that many F&W have weak faith in the finished work of Christ. There is a terrific cognative dissonance between that finished work and having to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, so to speak. I hope God has mercy on that weakness. My Mom was such a good example of this. I talked to her off and on (when she would speak to me, that is!) until the day she died about her "not having been good enough to make it". On one hand she knew that Jesus died for her, but she always felt that there was so much she had to do also. I blame that on the false teaching of the church she was raised in, who preaches both as if both were the truth.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 23, 2013 17:50:37 GMT -5
If "It is finished" means it is finished, then one must not have to do anything. Yes, but man has this inner being that says that he can add so much more to afinished work....kind of proud of himself or herself, eh? This is where humility is needed and it will work...just remembering that Jesus said in John 17 that He had finished the work that the Father had sent Him to do. And again on the cross He said "It is finished." Bowed his head an gave up the ghost.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 18:22:41 GMT -5
didn't know i had been anywhere Good thing I was here then.... You might never have known!! Just teasing you Virgo. lol
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 18:28:06 GMT -5
Well, it was pretty plain. The Workers who have spoken this at convention are speaking to mostly Friends and Workers. They have even said bluntly, "Half of you will not make it to heaven." And we know how they feel about "the world"...especially the religious world. They are definitely preaching a narrow way. The friends and workers themselves cannot tell you if they are going to make it or not. They cannot, for the most part, tell you definitely that they are saved. You can make all sorts of assumptions about what the Workers mean, but if they are not plain and clear enough in their teaching at convention, they are simply not effective teachers and do not have a clear message. All the more reason to not regard their message. And, yes, there ARE robbers and thieves who have slipped in among the Workers who are preaching deception. The job of the Workers(and I know because I was one for 12 years) i s to tell exactly what they believe about Jesus. I know what the Workers and Friends believe about Jesus. I am an authority on their doctrine. I know that they preach and I preached that the idea that "the world" has about Jesus is false and they are just talking about a man NAMED Jesus but it is not the Jesus, the saviour of the world that we know in the 2x2 fellowship. They are talking about a false Jesus that they made up for their own convenience. It would be interesting, I'm sure, to see who out of the 2x2 religion ends up in heaven...again Wm. Lewis mentioned that we would likely be surprised at who we will see in heaven, but actually the biggest surprise would be who we DON"T see in heaven! I'm sorry that people have to make Jesus be something for their own convenience when actually the Lamb of God is so very very precious...IMO! your last line is so very true and if we have the lamb nature then most of what is discussed on this board would drop away and all our words would reflect the glory that is in Jesus.
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Post by ts on May 23, 2013 18:28:37 GMT -5
ts, I'm not bert, but here's my take on this... All the 2x2's and others who believe Jesus died in their place are "saved". Some, however, have no reward coming based on "the rest of the story" of their lives. Edy, I would question whether most 2x2'ers would actually have enough faith in Jesus Christ to warrant Him granting them grace...simply because most of them feel they have to do something in order to be saved...I mean somethings like keeping their hair long. over modest in dress, always going to mtgs. with a sober face and being so quiet and fearful...instead of inviting the Holy Spirit to join them all in spirit...they work themselves up into dithers to where they cry nearly every testimony sayiong just how unworthy they are and that they desire and aim to be doing MORE works in their lives in order that God will grant them grace. The stickler here is that the faith is not really in Jesus Christ, it is doubting that Jesus really did "Finish it all"......They just got to do more and be more.....adding debt against God so that He will be forced to give them eternal life! Many do not realize that what makes eternal life theirs, is a gift from God to start with...faith is a gift from heaven, and God appreciates those who know that and also who ask that He might increase their faith...they are acknowledging that they are unable to increase their faith on their own, there is nothing within the power of man that would increase the faith in their hearts....God is who does that and when one feels like Jesus' death on the cross is NOT "finishing it" then they are saying that Jesus' sacrifice is NOT enough! That's possible. The problem I see is that the Friends and Workers in general do not have spiritual fellowship with others who are saved and in other religions. The reaction to outsiders being saved is typified in Bert's responses. He and others bring up "outside" Christian groups that are extreme in some way and that justifies the 2x2 religion and discredits anything else.
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Post by ts on May 23, 2013 18:30:45 GMT -5
It would be interesting, I'm sure, to see who out of the 2x2 religion ends up in heaven...again Wm. Lewis mentioned that we would likely be surprised at who we will see in heaven, but actually the biggest surprise would be who we DON"T see in heaven! I'm sorry that people have to make Jesus be something for their own convenience when actually the Lamb of God is so very very precious...IMO! your last line is so very true and if we have the lamb nature then most of what is discussed on this board would drop away and all our words would reflect the glory that is in Jesus. Amen, would that the traditions of men and false teaching would drop away from the Friends and Workers and they would join in worship of Jesus with other Christians.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 18:35:08 GMT -5
your last line is so very true and if we have the lamb nature then most of what is discussed on this board would drop away and all our words would reflect the glory that is in Jesus. Amen, would that the traditions of men and false teaching would drop away from the Friends and Workers and they would join in worship of Jesus with other Christians. is your statement a judgment on others?
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Post by Sylvestra on May 23, 2013 18:39:46 GMT -5
Actually yes. I had a worker explain the procedure to me in great detail about 10 years ago. He also gave an example of how he successfully deployed the technique on his own parents and forced them to change their behaviour. He appeared to wholeheartedly believe it was the right thing to do. It's not only that they will cause people to come back. It is used to force behavioural changes in people and is commonly seen in kindergarten playgrounds and in successive years among children. "Timmie won't do it my way so I won't talk to him or give him any candy until he does." And on it goes. Of course, it is a form of bullying and all it accomplishes in many cases is to cause hurt and hard feelings. Once that occurs, the victim is then classed as "bitter" and discarded altogether. If the person submits to the bully, it is deemed successful and proof of God working. This is one of the weirder (and nastiest) attributes of 2x2ism. Well that is rather a nasty mean thing to 'consciously' do! Bullying is a very apt description of it if they do it to manipulate. I guess that's why some of the friends wouldn't let their kids play alone with me and needed their parents around so I didn't contaminate their kids. (Clearing throat) If you looked anything like that beautiful lady in your avatar (!) I can understand why the parents of at least "half" the kids wouldn't let you play alone! LOL!
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Post by snow on May 23, 2013 19:20:21 GMT -5
Well that is rather a nasty mean thing to 'consciously' do! Bullying is a very apt description of it if they do it to manipulate. I guess that's why some of the friends wouldn't let their kids play alone with me and needed their parents around so I didn't contaminate their kids. (Clearing throat) If you looked anything like that beautiful lady in your avatar (!) I can understand why the parents of at least "half" the kids wouldn't let you play alone! LOL! Lol okay, point taken. I don't think I was anywhere near what my avatar is though.
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Post by ts on May 23, 2013 20:07:59 GMT -5
Amen, would that the traditions of men and false teaching would drop away from the Friends and Workers and they would join in worship of Jesus with other Christians. is your statement a judgment on others? Which part are you referring to? The part about false teaching? The workers talk about false teaching in "the world" lots. Are they being judgmental when they mention false teaching? Is it possible that Workers could teach false doctrine? Is it possible that the Workers would adhere to traditions like other groups they talk about? There is a hymn in the Hymns Old and New that talks about being freed from blind traditions' chain("Send Thy Light"). Are you saying that the Friends and Workers do not need to be freed from blind tradition's chain? I am saying the answer to your question is "no". I am not being judgmental. There is nothing judgmental there. Nothing untrue, either.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 23:18:20 GMT -5
is your statement a judgment on others? Which part are you referring to? The part about false teaching? The workers talk about false teaching in "the world" lots. Are they being judgmental when they mention false teaching? Is it possible that Workers could teach false doctrine? Is it possible that the Workers would adhere to traditions like other groups they talk about? There is a hymn in the Hymns Old and New that talks about being freed from blind traditions' chain("Send Thy Light"). Are you saying that the Friends and Workers do not need to be freed from blind tradition's chain? I am saying the answer to your question is "no". I am not being judgmental. There is nothing judgmental there. Nothing untrue, either. we will just have to let God decide whether you are or not
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Post by ts on May 24, 2013 9:19:12 GMT -5
Which part are you referring to? The part about false teaching? The workers talk about false teaching in "the world" lots. Are they being judgmental when they mention false teaching? Is it possible that Workers could teach false doctrine? Is it possible that the Workers would adhere to traditions like other groups they talk about? There is a hymn in the Hymns Old and New that talks about being freed from blind traditions' chain("Send Thy Light"). Are you saying that the Friends and Workers do not need to be freed from blind tradition's chain? I am saying the answer to your question is "no". I am not being judgmental. There is nothing judgmental there. Nothing untrue, either. we will just have to let God decide whether you are or not Sounds like you have already decided for him
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