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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 6, 2013 17:17:25 GMT -5
William Irvine was correct to leave organized religion behind. He made a mistake, though, in starting another organization branded on his ideas. . . but, be that as it may, I am glad to have been brought up in the 2x2s and saved from false religion.
Such as from the preacher that preached today at a mega church for a funeral of an aquaintance. Yikes!
Evidently, the deceased was predestined for her end at 37, on her wedding anniversary, with 5 little kids left. But, God in His love chose this for her before she was even born. She never had to even choose to serve God- she was predestined to- so saith the preacher.
Speaking of the lady's kids. . . the preacher told them that God had chosen for them to live long lives, unlike their mother, who had died young. How he knew their end is beyond me. If I were them, I would take up Snow Mobile flipping or some other dangerous XGame activity. . .since the preacher knows that God said that they would live to a ripe old age.
The church played a video of the lady when she was in her 20s being baptized. The church had 2 huge movie theater size screens.
One of the preachers had the dad, and the two older kids to write letters to their mom/wife. . . which he then read aloud at the funeral. Great. . . one daughter was so overcome with grief BEFORE the funeral that she had to be carried in. . .then she had to listen to that?!
The preacher screamed/yelled at the funeral goers about how great God was. And I quote- "God is consumed with His own Glory." Maybe someone can tell me what that means. It sounds like to me he was saying that "God was full of Himself."
I have been to a lifetime of conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, and regular meetings. I have NEVER heard the level of drivel that I hear from these worldly, overpriced, charlatans that rob from the congregation and can't even deliver a Godly or spiritual message. I'll take the honesty of a worker just starting out over the pomp and jackassery of some of these wells without water that vomit out their ignorance in the name of the Lord.
Another acquaintance that attended the funeral asked, "What was he saying?" So, I am glad that the nonsense sounded like nonsense to another denomination as well.
Obviously, not all non 2x2 churches or preachers are like this one- thank God. But, there are enough of them that they do indeed give Christianity a bad name.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2013 17:53:52 GMT -5
I have been to a lifetime of conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, and regular meetings. I have NEVER heard the level of drivel that I hear from these worldly, overpriced, charlatans that rob from the congregation and can't even deliver a Godly or spiritual message. I'll take the honesty of a worker just starting out over the pomp and jackassery of some of these wells without water that vomit out their ignorance in the name of the Lord. **** You do have a point. But I have been to worker led funerals where the system was praised and the deceased person ignored. I hated the gospel meeting type funerals when workers weren't sure of the deceased person's salvation. I have seen some local clergy show more compassion than some of the workers have done. And yes I have been to some wonderful funerals preached by the workers. I have seen it all in my life.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 6, 2013 17:58:23 GMT -5
I have been to a lifetime of conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, and regular meetings. I have NEVER heard the level of drivel that I hear from these worldly, overpriced, charlatans that rob from the congregation and can't even deliver a Godly or spiritual message. I'll take the honesty of a worker just starting out over the pomp and jackassery of some of these wells without water that vomit out their ignorance in the name of the Lord. **** You do have a point. But I have been to worker led funerals where the system was praised and the deceased person ignored. I hated the gospel meeting type funerals when workers weren't sure of the deceased person's salvation. I have seen some local clergy show more compassion than some of the workers have done. And yes I have been to some wonderful funerals preached by the workers. I have seen it all in my life. I agree that I am not a fan of the workers preaching the system at funerals and ignoring the deceased. It is pretty much the rule for preaching a funeral- turn it into a gospel meeting. But, at the same token, I dislike it even more when a preacher preaches the deceased into heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2013 18:26:34 GMT -5
I like to hear funny things about the deceased. I guess one cannot lump worker funerals and denominational preacher funerals into any specific category. I have been to good ones and bad ones in each. However, I have seen workers hijack a funeral by preaching the minister in the home and homeless ministry. Some denominational preachers can show off their oratorical skills a bit.
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Post by Grant on Apr 6, 2013 22:19:57 GMT -5
I am glad I have been saved from the false religion and teachings of the workers. Worker led funerals - yike!!
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 6, 2013 23:25:20 GMT -5
Guess I'll tell of our recent church experience. Since we have been living in this city (14 years), we have never found a church we cared to attend a second time.
Our last venture was this past Easter, last Sunday. We chose a nearby Christian Church (Disciples of Christ branch), eager and expecting to the story of Jesus' life death and resurrection. To hear about His victory over death...and to honor Him, etc. After all, this is the most holy event for Christians!
Didnt happen. Far from it. The closest the (female) pastor got to it was telling about the WOMEN (she overly emphasized the word women) who went to the tomb and came back and told the others about the empty tomb--and told us she didnt think this was from a lack of faith that they didn't believe the WOMEN.
After a lengthy account about how different members of her family had viewed Neil Armstrongs landing on the moon (some believed and others didnt), we were shown a slide presentation of examples of behavior that showed Christ's resurrection...one of them was a man hugging a naked man in a LGBT community (lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgender) parade in Chicago with a poster in the background "We are so sorry for the way the church has hurt you."
The pastor didnt start her prayer with "Our Father" - but hollered out "LIVING GOD!" It was a good thing she had prefaced this with "Let us pray" or we wouldnt have known it was a prayer. Neither did she conclude "in Jesus Name," but with just an abrupt AMEN.
However, her sermon was so off topic and things went from bad to worse and we got up and left before the service was finished--something we'd never done before. To us, it was a travesty.
On the other hand...the hymns and scripture readings by others were appropriate and the prayers by a couple were beautiful and spot on. If they had held the service, it possibly would have been everything we were expecting and wanted.
We are beginning to think we are not meant to find a local church home. We do enjoy going to church when visiting my mother in another city. Time will tell. In the meantime, we enjoy our personal Bible Studies on Sunday morning.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 1:28:38 GMT -5
I am glad to have been brought up in the 2x2s and saved from false religion. How does one determine whether a particular religion is false? Matt10
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Post by quizzer on Apr 7, 2013 5:46:43 GMT -5
I am glad to have been brought up in the 2x2s and saved from false religion. How does one determine whether a particular religion is false? Matt10 Ask the workers. They know this stuff.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 7, 2013 6:06:12 GMT -5
How does one determine whether a particular religion is false? Matt10 Ask the workers. They know this stuff. After all they have 100+ years of experience ken
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Post by quizzer on Apr 7, 2013 6:14:01 GMT -5
Ask the workers. They know this stuff. After all they have 100+ years of experience ken 100+ years of experience causes you to doubt their judgement? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 7:22:02 GMT -5
How does one determine whether a particular religion is false? Matt10 Ask the workers. They know this stuff. In fairness to the workers they do have a method of determining whether a religion is false in their view. Or at least they did have in my day. It was hardly a methodology that would stand up to much scrutiny of course, but there you are. I'm expecting that saradoctal, a man well versed in the level of scrutiny to which claims on the TMB are likely to be subjected to, will have a more well thought out methodology than that promoted by the workers. Is it fair to assume that you have too? Matt10
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 7, 2013 9:10:28 GMT -5
Guess I'll tell of our recent church experience. Since we have been living in this city (14 years), we have never found a church we cared to attend a second time. Our last venture was this past Easter, last Sunday. We chose a nearby Christian Church (Disciples of Christ branch), eager and expecting to the story of Jesus' life death and resurrection. To hear about His victory over death...and to honor Him, etc. After all, this is the most holy event for Christians! Didnt happen. Far from it. The closest the (female) pastor got to it was telling about the WOMEN (she overly emphasized the word women) who went to the tomb and came back and told the others about the empty tomb--and told us she didnt think this was from a lack of faith that they didn't believe the WOMEN. After a lengthy account about how different members of her family had viewed Neil Armstrongs landing on the moon (some believed and others didnt), we were shown a slide presentation of examples of behavior that showed Christ's resurrection...one of them was a man hugging a naked man in a gay/transgender parade in Chicago with a poster in the background "We are so sorry for the way the church has hurt you." The pastor didnt start her prayer with "Our Father" - but hollered out "LIVING GOD!" It was a good thing she had prefaced this with "Let us pray" or we wouldnt have known it was a prayer. Neither did she conclude "in Jesus Name," but with just an abrupt AMEN. However, her sermon was so off topic and things went from bad to worse and we got up and left before the service was finished--something we'd never done before. To us, it was a travesty. On the other hand...the hymns and scripture readings by others were appropriate and the prayers by a couple were beautiful and spot on. If they had held the service, it possibly would have been everything we were expecting and wanted. We are beginning to think we are not meant to find a local church home. We do enjoy going to church when visiting my mother in another city. Time will tell. In the meantime, we enjoy our personal Bible Studies on Sunday morning. Thanks, Cherie. You picked up on the theme of my thread, and it was not to broad brush all religions as false, but rather to point out an example of false religion. Jesus was not broad brushing His churches in Rev 2 and 3 either, but was pointing out issues that each may have had. The best sermon I ever heard on Rev 2 and 3 was from David Jeremiah. It is well worth listening to by all on this board. He would be considered a false preacher by some workers, but not all. I know of one overseer that recommends the friends to read one of David Jeremiah books. In the meantime, we continue to enjoy our Sunday morning meeting with our family as well. I am glad that you enjoy the same. It has been a blessing for us.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 7, 2013 9:21:24 GMT -5
Ask the workers. They know this stuff. In fairness to the workers they do have a method of determining whether a religion is false in their view. Or at least they did have in my day. It was hardly a methodology that would stand up to much scrutiny of course, but there you are. I'm expecting that saradoctal, a man well versed in the level of scrutiny to which claims on the TMB are likely to be subjected to, will have a more well thought out methodology than that promoted by the workers. Is it fair to assume that you have too? Matt10 The worker methodology is simple - believe that the 2x2 fellowship is the only right way in which to follow Jesus and the workers are the only true preachers that are the modern day Apostles. My methodology is simple believe on Jesus and yield your life to Him. He is the message. He must increase and I must decrease. When I see someone loving an enemy, I know I have found a a Christian. When I see someone being temperate, kind, patient, merciful, joyful : I have found someone that is a Christian. I do not have to ask to what belief they belong, I already know by their fruit. Christians seem to exist in spite of the foolishness of organized systems, and yes, the 2x2s are an organized system. But, some systems seem to encourage the conditions for the growth of fruit more than others.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 7, 2013 10:16:07 GMT -5
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 7, 2013 10:52:58 GMT -5
Nope. "Enemies must be shunned" so saith Jesus?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 11:04:16 GMT -5
Guess I'll tell of our recent church experience. Since we have been living in this city (14 years), we have never found a church we cared to attend a second time. Don't know if you live close to Cleveland, OH, but Parkside Church won't disappoint you. Alistair Begg preaches 'the whole council of God.' You can hear his Good Friday and Easter services (or any other service) on www.truthforlife.com if you'd like to hear solid Bible preaching.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2013 11:39:45 GMT -5
I hope the following doesn't sound too critical as I'm trying to work through the same issues as everyone else. I definitely relate to the critique of organized religions and church, and I personally have little hope for it in my own case. However, if we dwell on that critique I wonder if we are still bought in to the attractional or service model, where the church ministry acts like a service that is trying to attract people in some way. I do like the missional or incarnational idea of personal spiritual regeneration, not just being born again, but as a life quest. And then, from that perspective, some aspects of organized religion work, and some just don't. (If you Google some of these terms, or youtube them, there's all kinds of stuff to get you thinking). Tonight we'll have a supper and Bible study with a few couples of similar bent. All are involved with organized churches in some way, but we meet to provide mutual support in our spiritual life quest. Some months ago we worked through Hugh Halter's workbook on 'Gathered and Scattered Church', one section at a time, and that was mostly beneficial. We decided to continue our get togethers, working through the gospel of Luke, and then just talking and discussing our various endeavours, which constitute our 'true' religion. We meet about every 3 weeks in this way, because we all have lots of other stuff to do. Some of us are active within the auspices of 'regular' church, but all feel the form is limiting. It could also be because of our age and stage of life that we feel as we do.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2013 11:54:19 GMT -5
I feel I should play the video for Hugh Halter's book. It's been a few months since I last did so. www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5AMKwj73kYThe book is more a source book of ideas than a prescription for anything. There are also lots of other resources out there on missional/ incarnational ideas, from various people trying things along similar lines. A central concept is the idea of 'AND'. (Note AND in the video title). That is, incarnational living is not trying to upset or replace anything that exists, but trying to complement it in a constructive way. In our Bible study group we are finding encouragement to continue within our respective church communities but on Christ's terms, not theirs.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 7, 2013 12:08:40 GMT -5
Guess I'll tell of our recent church experience. Since we have been living in this city (14 years), we have never found a church we cared to attend a second time. Our last venture was this past Easter, last Sunday. We chose a nearby Christian Church (Disciples of Christ branch), eager and expecting to the story of Jesus' life death and resurrection. To hear about His victory over death...and to honor Him, etc. After all, this is the most holy event for Christians! Didnt happen. Far from it. The closest the (female) pastor got to it was telling about the WOMEN (she overly emphasized the word women) who went to the tomb and came back and told the others about the empty tomb--and told us she didnt think this was from a lack of faith that they didn't believe the WOMEN. After a lengthy account about how different members of her family had viewed Neil Armstrongs landing on the moon (some believed and others didnt), we were shown a slide presentation of examples of behavior that showed Christ's resurrection...one of them was a man hugging a naked man in a gay/transgender parade in Chicago with a poster in the background "We are so sorry for the way the church has hurt you." The pastor didnt start her prayer with "Our Father" - but hollered out "LIVING GOD!" It was a good thing she had prefaced this with "Let us pray" or we wouldnt have known it was a prayer. Neither did she conclude "in Jesus Name," but with just an abrupt AMEN. However, her sermon was so off topic and things went from bad to worse and we got up and left before the service was finished--something we'd never done before. To us, it was a travesty. On the other hand...the hymns and scripture readings by others were appropriate and the prayers by a couple were beautiful and spot on. If they had held the service, it possibly would have been everything we were expecting and wanted. We are beginning to think we are not meant to find a local church home. We do enjoy going to church when visiting my mother in another city. Time will tell. In the meantime, we enjoy our personal Bible Studies on Sunday morning. In defense of the Disciples of Christ church, I think your experience was absolutely the abnormal....I have to wonder if the female preacher was not a "substitute"....I can in no way understand why the Disciples of Christ would keep such a preacher.... And yes, the elders that work most of the service do have good prayers and readings and thoughts. My biggest kick with them is when it is time to collect funds for something that put that right into the part where the elders normally give spiritual readings and talks....I do not like any discussion in regards to the church's business to be taken care of right in the middle of the service....and yes, I know they have to announce that kind of thing sooner or later..... I left the Disciples of Christ more about the split that a woman caused within the church...she couldn't leave a situation alone at all but had to argue about it within the deacon and elders' meetings. That church had had another split very similar back in the 1990's and this time they lost about 25 or more people and most of them were the "money" that kept the church afloat..... I learned right quick that women have NO business trying to run a church's business.....
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Post by sharonw on Apr 7, 2013 12:11:42 GMT -5
I am glad to have been brought up in the 2x2s and saved from false religion. How does one determine whether a particular religion is false? Matt10 Again, the old saying is the way is perfect but the people aren't! lah! It isn't the religion that is false nor is the preacher false but certainly they can be misguided and show that in their sermons...but if we look at the statement of belief for each church we can be sure that somewhere along the line someone had the honest desire to do right....but then just like the 2x2s latter generations get it all screwed up!
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 7, 2013 13:31:44 GMT -5
sharonw wrote:
I think you're right -- it was abnormal. We were expecting a female pastor after checking their website. She wasnt a substitute. We didnt have a problem with that. I've visited one other Disciples of Christ church and was ok with it.
Speaking of collections--the VERY first thing the pastor did when she got up to speak was to turn on a video about their foreign missions - and funding needed for it. Then she went thru a long list of announcements re health, etc. re members--she didnt pray for them. That turned us off also. Looks like she could have put Jesus first and foremost of all business for this one special day of the year!!!.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2013 14:13:27 GMT -5
In fairness to the workers they do have a method of determining whether a religion is false in their view. Or at least they did have in my day. It was hardly a methodology that would stand up to much scrutiny of course, but there you are. I'm expecting that saradoctal, a man well versed in the level of scrutiny to which claims on the TMB are likely to be subjected to, will have a more well thought out methodology than that promoted by the workers. Is it fair to assume that you have too? Matt10 The worker methodology is simple - believe that the 2x2 fellowship is the only right way in which to follow Jesus and the workers are the only true preachers that are the modern day Apostles. My methodology is simple believe on Jesus and yield your life to Him. He is the message. He must increase and I must decrease. When I see someone loving an enemy, I know I have found a a Christian. When I see someone being temperate, kind, patient, merciful, joyful : I have found someone that is a Christian. I do not have to ask to what belief they belong, I already know by their fruit. Christians seem to exist in spite of the foolishness of organized systems, and yes, the 2x2s are an organized system. But, some systems seem to encourage the conditions for the growth of fruit more than others. I wonder why those characteristics are only given to Christians? There are many other religions and non belief systems that have people that have those characteristics. Are they all Christian by default? I'm sorry but when I read something like this is makes me sad that Christians believe they are the only ones that are like this. It's not true. Imo they are not Christian characteristics, but rather humane characteristics. Anyone can be loving, compassionate and they don't need to believe in any particular religion. Coming from you, I have always thought you acknowledged that. So I am a bit confused by this post.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 17:36:14 GMT -5
sarcerdotal When I see someone loving an enemy, I know I have found a a Christian. When I see someone being temperate, kind, patient, merciful, joyful : I have found someone that is a Christian. And when you find anybody who turns the other cheek, you'll know you have found a christian. The big question to you is: have you found any Christians yet? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2013 17:44:27 GMT -5
One person I met who would have qualified called himself a Buddhist. Perhaps he was mistaken, sarcerdotal When I see someone loving an enemy, I know I have found a a Christian. When I see someone being temperate, kind, patient, merciful, joyful : I have found someone that is a Christian. And when you find anybody who turns the other cheek, you'll know you have found a christian. The big question to you is: have you found any Christians yet? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 18:05:25 GMT -5
Nope. "Enemies must be shunned" so saith Jesus? Matthew 5:43-44 - Love for Enemies - “You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and those that persecute you." Isn't that what Jesus said?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 18:11:35 GMT -5
One person I met who would have qualified called himself a Buddhist. Perhaps he was mistaken, sarcerdotal When I see someone loving an enemy, I know I have found a a Christian. When I see someone being temperate, kind, patient, merciful, joyful : I have found someone that is a Christian. And when you find anybody who turns the other cheek, you'll know you have found a christian. The big question to you is: have you found any Christians yet? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) He is probably a Buddhist christian. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) As Jesus would say, leave him alone, if he is not against us, he is for us.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 7, 2013 18:17:06 GMT -5
sharonw wrote: I think you're right -- it was abnormal. We were expecting a female pastor after checking their website. She wasnt a substitute. We didnt have a problem with that. I've visited one other Disciples of Christ church and was ok with it. Speaking of collections--the VERY first thing the pastor did when she got up to speak was to turn on a video about their foreign missions - and funding needed for it. Then she went thru a long list of announcements re health, etc. re members--she didnt pray for them. That turned us off also. Looks like she could have put Jesus first and foremost of all business for this one special day of the year!!!. Thank goodness this Disciples of Christ church here do not do any videos to beg for money....normally it's just a reminder that within the bulletin are envelopes for this particular need of money and a short explanation about what that need is and does for the Disciples of Christ members and the neighbors in that area as well as the church across American and other places as well. I went to a revival at a Church of Christ this past summer with a lady that lived here and I enjoyed it very much. Of course, in the Church of Christ I would not have to worry about any women or myself being asked to take care of serious church business. I have felt that the Church of Christ probably are as near to the 2x2s in a lot of ways except this women preacher thing..CoC do not believe in women preachers or women anything, but servants of the church. They do have some women teach children's bible classes etc. But none teach adult classes and in no way have I ever known of a female leading the mtg. for it seems the CoC always have plenty of male members....
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Post by sharonw on Apr 7, 2013 18:20:22 GMT -5
BTW, I do know from personal experience that opening my mind, much less my heart, to accept religions outside the f&w's is a very hard thing to do. The indoctrination of it being the only true way is hard to cast aside even when you know it is nothing more then a bunch of wool in order to get and keep members. This is the one thing I despise about the 2x2 church and any other church who still holds that they are the only true way.
It is a very hard thing also to get it straight in our heads that there is NO Jesus' way, the wording is "Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, the life." He didn't posses it, He was IT.
Talking about women preachers, I saw where the Mormon church is allowing females to pray in services.
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