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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2013 12:30:37 GMT -5
Each religion that has ever been started has got some things right. I have always said there is more commonality between religions than most people give them credit for. But that is not because of the religion but because of what humanity is. To say that all people are Christian is like the Muslims saying all people are Muslim. I don't think Christians take too kindly to that assertion and I'm sure other religions and non religions don't take to kindly to being labelled Christian. I don't want to be associated with that label that's for sure. Christians do not have a good reputation and religion in general do not have a good reputation. I do not want to be labelled as any one of them. I don't understand why anyone would try. I am a human being that believes the best way to live life is to be loving and compassionate. Don't put me in a box where I don't belong or want to be. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Don't worry, I'm not going around telling anyone that so-and-so is a Christian. The argument is merely that many of those who wouldn't consider themselves as Christians would nonetheless meet all the qualifications as I understand them. I also understand why quite a lot of people wouldn't jump for joy at the news.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2013 12:35:27 GMT -5
What wrote: I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!" Anybody ever read "Where love is, God is" by Tolstoy? I have read a lot of Tolstoy, but not that one. I will check my library to see if I have it.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2013 12:40:04 GMT -5
The Carm web site seems to be more about slagging different churches and religions than anything else. For example - carm.org/is-catholicism-christianThus, you might wish to take them off your source list, stanne. Now first, you quoted me out of context. Because I had a list of two other things beside 'conscience'. But aside from that 'conscience' is no small thing. I believe that there are many individuals that don't have much of a conscience; the world does that to people. Conscience and empathy or compassion are closely linked. Here is what the Bible says about the importance of 'conscience' in the time before there was a Gospel. Rom 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. Rom 2:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom 2:16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. The question is whether this represents the dealing of the Spirit of God, and based on passages like Exodus 35:30-35 I would argue it does. I've just noticed now that the first mention of the Spirit of God is in the Creation account in Genesis 1. So that suggests the Spirit of God has been working with man since Neanderthal days. I used it because it is non-Catholic but fairly good for quick reference. Slagging? (You would be practicing the same then because it doesn't fit with your non-Trinitarian belief? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) Merely stating the difference in held belief that varies from what is really taught about the Holy Spirit isn't what I would term slagging. There is nothing wrong with indicating what others believe if it is done in a factual teaching manner. God did write his moral laws on our hearts. Additionally, we are responsible for forming our own conscience. The gift of the Holy Spirit is a power and source of grace that is beyond those - or as referred to from Haydock - the supernatural graces. Romans 2 Ver. 14-15. When the Gentiles...do by nature, or naturally, that is, without having received any written law, these men are a law to themselves, and have it written in their hearts, as to the existence of a God, and their reason tells them, that many sins are unlawful: they may also do some actions that are morally good, as by giving alms to relieve the poor, honouring their parents, &c. not that these actions, morally good, will suffice for their justification of themselves, or make them deserve a supernatural reward in the kingdom of heaven; but God, out of his infinite mercy, will give them some supernatural graces, by which they come to know, and believe, that he will reward their souls for eternity. Such, says St. Chrysostom, were the dispositions of Melchisedech, Job, Cornelius the Centurion, &c. (Witham) The slagging is that they say Roman Catholics are not Christians. First sentence.
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Post by snow on Apr 8, 2013 12:57:13 GMT -5
Each religion that has ever been started has got some things right. I have always said there is more commonality between religions than most people give them credit for. But that is not because of the religion but because of what humanity is. To say that all people are Christian is like the Muslims saying all people are Muslim. I don't think Christians take too kindly to that assertion and I'm sure other religions and non religions don't take to kindly to being labelled Christian. I don't want to be associated with that label that's for sure. Christians do not have a good reputation and religion in general do not have a good reputation. I do not want to be labelled as any one of them. I don't understand why anyone would try. I am a human being that believes the best way to live life is to be loving and compassionate. Don't put me in a box where I don't belong or want to be. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Don't worry, I'm not going around telling anyone that so-and-so is a Christian. The argument is merely that many of those who wouldn't consider themselves as Christians would nonetheless meet all the qualifications as I understand them. I also understand why quite a lot of people wouldn't jump for joy at the news. I would agree that those are some characteristics that some Christians have so I do understand what you mean. I just happen to believe those characteristics belong to conscious human beings and are universal, not attached to one particular spiritual path.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 8, 2013 13:21:42 GMT -5
I used it because it is non-Catholic but fairly good for quick reference. Slagging? (You would be practicing the same then because it doesn't fit with your non-Trinitarian belief? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) Merely stating the difference in held belief that varies from what is really taught about the Holy Spirit isn't what I would term slagging. There is nothing wrong with indicating what others believe if it is done in a factual teaching manner. God did write his moral laws on our hearts. Additionally, we are responsible for forming our own conscience. The gift of the Holy Spirit is a power and source of grace that is beyond those - or as referred to from Haydock - the supernatural graces. Romans 2 Ver. 14-15. When the Gentiles...do by nature, or naturally, that is, without having received any written law, these men are a law to themselves, and have it written in their hearts, as to the existence of a God, and their reason tells them, that many sins are unlawful: they may also do some actions that are morally good, as by giving alms to relieve the poor, honouring their parents, &c. not that these actions, morally good, will suffice for their justification of themselves, or make them deserve a supernatural reward in the kingdom of heaven; but God, out of his infinite mercy, will give them some supernatural graces, by which they come to know, and believe, that he will reward their souls for eternity. Such, says St. Chrysostom, were the dispositions of Melchisedech, Job, Cornelius the Centurion, &c. (Witham) The slagging is that they say Roman Catholics are not Christians. First sentence. Oh. I see. That major boo-boo is indeed on me. ![](http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/faint2.gif) Thanks friend!! (and by way of explanation - if it seems that I am somewhat harder on your promotion of your belief and musings about the Holy Spirit it is because of your background of correct teaching and your theological explorations are different to many here.)
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2013 14:52:58 GMT -5
The slagging is that they say Roman Catholics are not Christians. First sentence. Oh. I see. That major boo-boo is indeed on me. ![](http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/faint2.gif) Thanks friend!! (and by way of explanation - if it seems that I am somewhat harder on your promotion of your belief and musings about the Holy Spirit it is because of your background of correct teaching and your theological explorations are different to many here.) No problem, stanne. I never expect to convince anyone of anything .... especially around here. As the French say, vive la différence. Except I don't think they meant religion.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2013 14:57:01 GMT -5
Don't worry, I'm not going around telling anyone that so-and-so is a Christian. The argument is merely that many of those who wouldn't consider themselves as Christians would nonetheless meet all the qualifications as I understand them. I also understand why quite a lot of people wouldn't jump for joy at the news. I would agree that those are some characteristics that some Christians have so I do understand what you mean. I just happen to believe those characteristics belong to conscious human beings and are universal, not attached to one particular spiritual path. Except they don't belong to animals, and they don't belong to, or lie dormant in, some humans. So where you see humanity, I see a spark of the divine; otherwise there is almost no difference in our outlook.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 8, 2013 19:25:00 GMT -5
Oh. I see. That major boo-boo is indeed on me. ![](http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/faint2.gif) Thanks friend!! (and by way of explanation - if it seems that I am somewhat harder on your promotion of your belief and musings about the Holy Spirit it is because of your background of correct teaching; and your theological explorations are different to many here.) No problem, stanne. I never expect to convince anyone of anything .... especially around here. As the French say, vive la différence. Except I don't think they meant religion. D'accord. Also, I didn't want to let your original commentary about the Holy Spirit go without rebuttal for a few reasons - one of them being that you sometimes throw things out there for the purpose of provoking discussion ...
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Post by sharonw on Apr 8, 2013 19:27:12 GMT -5
It also states that we reject the Spirit of God at our peril. I'm with you here. The Spirit of God is nothing more than conscience, the desire to be good, to make more of our lives than just pleasing ourselves.Conscience? That's all? You can't seriously believe that. Are you certain you want to go on record as denying the power of the Holy Spirit by saying He is nothing more than conscience? Odd then that the Holy Spirit has the attributes of God. carm.org/holy-spirit- The Holy Spirit is a person of the Holy Trinity.
- Scripturally always referred to as 'He'.
- The tongues of flame at Pentecost? Whose conscience was that?
- Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit -
thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
- Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Not by the power of her conscience.
The Carm web site seems to be more about slagging different churches and religions than anything else. For example - carm.org/is-catholicism-christianThus, you might wish to take them off your source list, stanne. Now first, you quoted me out of context. Because I had a list of two other things beside 'conscience'. But aside from that 'conscience' is no small thing. I believe that there are many individuals that don't have much of a conscience; the world does that to people. Conscience and empathy or compassion are closely linked. Here is what the Bible says about the importance of 'conscience' in the time before there was a Gospel. Rom 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. Rom 2:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom 2:16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. The question is whether this represents the dealing of the Spirit of God, and based on passages like Exodus 35:30-35 I would argue it does. I've just noticed now that the first mention of the Spirit of God is in the Creation account in Genesis 1. So that suggests the Spirit of God has been working with man since Neanderthal days. I'm not that sure esp. fromt he creation story, it says that the Holy Spirit moved upon the waters...apparently the Spirit is what separates the waters....the Word created them.....
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Post by jondough on Apr 8, 2013 23:12:30 GMT -5
William Irvine was correct to leave organized religion behind. He made a mistake, though, in starting another organization branded on his ideas. . . but, be that as it may, I am glad to have been brought up in the 2x2s and saved from false religion. Such as from the preacher that preached today at a mega church for a funeral of an aquaintance. Yikes! Evidently, the deceased was predestined for her end at 37, on her wedding anniversary, with 5 little kids left. But, God in His love chose this for her before she was even born. She never had to even choose to serve God- she was predestined to- so saith the preacher. Speaking of the lady's kids. . . the preacher told them that God had chosen for them to live long lives, unlike their mother, who had died young. How he knew their end is beyond me. If I were them, I would take up Snow Mobile flipping or some other dangerous XGame activity. . .since the preacher knows that God said that they would live to a ripe old age. The church played a video of the lady when she was in her 20s being baptized. The church had 2 huge movie theater size screens. One of the preachers had the dad, and the two older kids to write letters to their mom/wife. . . which he then read aloud at the funeral. Great. . . one daughter was so overcome with grief BEFORE the funeral that she had to be carried in. . .then she had to listen to that?! The preacher screamed/yelled at the funeral goers about how great God was. And I quote- "God is consumed with His own Glory." Maybe someone can tell me what that means. It sounds like to me he was saying that "God was full of Himself." I have been to a lifetime of conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, and regular meetings. I have NEVER heard the level of drivel that I hear from these worldly, overpriced, charlatans that rob from the congregation and can't even deliver a Godly or spiritual message. I'll take the honesty of a worker just starting out over the pomp and jackassery of some of these wells without water that vomit out their ignorance in the name of the Lord. Another acquaintance that attended the funeral asked, "What was he saying?" So, I am glad that the nonsense sounded like nonsense to another denomination as well. Obviously, not all non 2x2 churches or preachers are like this one- thank God. But, there are enough of them that they do indeed give Christianity a bad name. Just getting caught up. Great post SD. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by ts on Apr 9, 2013 1:18:08 GMT -5
William Irvine was correct to leave organized religion behind. He made a mistake, though, in starting another organization branded on his ideas. . . but, be that as it may, I am glad to have been brought up in the 2x2s and saved from false religion. Such as from the preacher that preached today at a mega church for a funeral of an aquaintance. Yikes! Evidently, the deceased was predestined for her end at 37, on her wedding anniversary, with 5 little kids left. But, God in His love chose this for her before she was even born. She never had to even choose to serve God- she was predestined to- so saith the preacher. Speaking of the lady's kids. . . the preacher told them that God had chosen for them to live long lives, unlike their mother, who had died young. How he knew their end is beyond me. If I were them, I would take up Snow Mobile flipping or some other dangerous XGame activity. . .since the preacher knows that God said that they would live to a ripe old age. The church played a video of the lady when she was in her 20s being baptized. The church had 2 huge movie theater size screens. One of the preachers had the dad, and the two older kids to write letters to their mom/wife. . . which he then read aloud at the funeral. Great. . . one daughter was so overcome with grief BEFORE the funeral that she had to be carried in. . .then she had to listen to that?! The preacher screamed/yelled at the funeral goers about how great God was. And I quote- "God is consumed with His own Glory." Maybe someone can tell me what that means. It sounds like to me he was saying that "God was full of Himself." I have been to a lifetime of conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, and regular meetings. I have NEVER heard the level of drivel that I hear from these worldly, overpriced, charlatans that rob from the congregation and can't even deliver a Godly or spiritual message. I'll take the honesty of a worker just starting out over the pomp and jackassery of some of these wells without water that vomit out their ignorance in the name of the Lord. Another acquaintance that attended the funeral asked, "What was he saying?" So, I am glad that the nonsense sounded like nonsense to another denomination as well. Obviously, not all non 2x2 churches or preachers are like this one- thank God. But, there are enough of them that they do indeed give Christianity a bad name. The Church in general has failed in many ways. I am glad for those who are walking Jesus' walk and bringing Jesus to others. I just watched this video this evening. Todd White says at one point here that someone asked him what he was. He said, "I'm a Christian." They said, "No you aren't." They knew Christians and their hypocrisy and Todd did not fit in with what they knew. The Church and each individual needs to be kicked out of the boat and walk in faith. Here is the link if anyone is interested: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWe0EyXGI3YIt is long but a very different message than I have heard in most churches.
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