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Post by sharonw on Apr 7, 2013 18:23:33 GMT -5
Nope. "Enemies must be shunned" so saith Jesus? Otherwords, you're having a non-worker sanctioned mtg? Do the workers still think you're still a 2x2? Doesn't sound like it to me!
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 7, 2013 18:33:52 GMT -5
It is a very hard thing also to get it straight in our heads that there is NO Jesus' way, the wording is "Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, the life." He didn't posses it, He was IT.
Thanks for that , Sharon Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 20:14:46 GMT -5
It is a very hard thing also to get it straight in our heads that there is NO Jesus' way, the wording is "Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, the life." He didn't posses it, He was IT. Thanks for that , Sharon Alvin Yes, Jesus, the Way, is Life.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2013 20:24:34 GMT -5
The worker methodology is simple - believe that the 2x2 fellowship is the only right way in which to follow Jesus and the workers are the only true preachers that are the modern day Apostles. My methodology is simple believe on Jesus and yield your life to Him. He is the message. He must increase and I must decrease. When I see someone loving an enemy, I know I have found a a Christian. When I see someone being temperate, kind, patient, merciful, joyful : I have found someone that is a Christian. I do not have to ask to what belief they belong, I already know by their fruit. Christians seem to exist in spite of the foolishness of organized systems, and yes, the 2x2s are an organized system. But, some systems seem to encourage the conditions for the growth of fruit more than others. I wonder why those characteristics are only given to Christians? There are many other religions and non belief systems that have people that have those characteristics. Are they all Christian by default? I'm sorry but when I read something like this is makes me sad that Christians believe they are the only ones that are like this. It's not true. Imo they are not Christian characteristics, but rather humane characteristics. Anyone can be loving, compassionate and they don't need to believe in any particular religion. Coming from you, I have always thought you acknowledged that. So I am a bit confused by this post. I don't want to speak for sacerdotal, and he can correct me if I am wrong, but personally I do believe that yes, they are all Christian by default. It might be a bit strange but to my way of thinking an atheist can be a Christian. To me, a chapter like Luke 12 means it's more about getting the message, than it is about following the messenger. (See Luke 12:10, for example.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 21:26:23 GMT -5
I wonder why those characteristics are only given to Christians? There are many other religions and non belief systems that have people that have those characteristics. Are they all Christian by default? I'm sorry but when I read something like this is makes me sad that Christians believe they are the only ones that are like this. It's not true. Imo they are not Christian characteristics, but rather humane characteristics. Anyone can be loving, compassionate and they don't need to believe in any particular religion. Coming from you, I have always thought you acknowledged that. So I am a bit confused by this post. I don't want to speak for sacerdotal, and he can correct me if I am wrong, but personally I do believe that yes, they are all Christian by default. It might be a bit strange but to my way of thinking an atheist can be a Christian. To me, a chapter like Luke 12 means it's more about getting the message, than it is about following the messenger. (See Luke 12:10, for example.) Yep, it sounds weird alright, but I agree with that. It's the exclusive theology that makes a mess of things, and really nasty sometimes.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2013 21:29:47 GMT -5
I wonder why those characteristics are only given to Christians? There are many other religions and non belief systems that have people that have those characteristics. Are they all Christian by default? I'm sorry but when I read something like this is makes me sad that Christians believe they are the only ones that are like this. It's not true. Imo they are not Christian characteristics, but rather humane characteristics. Anyone can be loving, compassionate and they don't need to believe in any particular religion. Coming from you, I have always thought you acknowledged that. So I am a bit confused by this post. I don't want to speak for sacerdotal, and he can correct me if I am wrong, but personally I do believe that yes, they are all Christian by default. It might be a bit strange but to my way of thinking an atheist can be a Christian. To me, a chapter like Luke 12 means it's more about getting the message, than it is about following the messenger. (See Luke 12:10, for example.) I guess I see it more like there were people with these characteristics long before there were Christians or Christ. So no, I don't see good characteristics as due to any religious belief. If we were to attribute these qualities to a religion then why not Buddhist since it is older than Christianity? But no, I believe it is a quality of loving and compassionate human beings.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2013 21:53:11 GMT -5
I don't want to speak for sacerdotal, and he can correct me if I am wrong, but personally I do believe that yes, they are all Christian by default. It might be a bit strange but to my way of thinking an atheist can be a Christian. To me, a chapter like Luke 12 means it's more about getting the message, than it is about following the messenger. (See Luke 12:10, for example.) I guess I see it more like there were people with these characteristics long before there were Christians or Christ. So no, I don't see good characteristics as due to any religious belief. If we were to attribute these qualities to a religion then why not Buddhist since it is older than Christianity? But no, I believe it is a quality of loving and compassionate human beings. I understand what you are saying but that is a very limiting view of Christianity. Perhaps I can expand a little. First, there is only one God. Not a God for each religion. Jesus is not God, and never claimed he was. Jesus said that we should be loving and compassionate, and if we were, then we were obedient to God. Do you need to hear that from Jesus or his disciples or messengers? No. Do you need to hear that from the Spirit of God? The Bible tells us that God's Spirit has always been speaking to men and women, even before Jesus lived, and certainly before the Bible existed. It also states that we reject the Spirit of God at our peril. The Spirit of God is nothing more than conscience, the desire to be good, to make more of our lives than just pleasing ourselves. I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2013 22:07:41 GMT -5
Incidentally, when Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life", he was referring to the fact that he was compassion, goodness and love, perfectly personified, perfectly exercised, and completely incarnated. Thus, the way to God is ... commitment, exercise and personification of compassion, goodness and love. Can you hear that from Buddha instead of Christ? Perhaps; I'm not sure. It can't be ruled out. I find the idea of 'karma' a bit harsh and unforgiving, but any religion or prophet could potentially have a positive effect in terms of one's spiritual well being. But it's not possible to make that evaluation without living in that culture. I find it hard to believe that only the lives of certain so and so's who by accident of birth were brought into a certain religion in the Western world are acceptable to God.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 7, 2013 22:56:33 GMT -5
I guess I see it more like there were people with these characteristics long before there were Christians or Christ. ... I understand what you are saying but that is a very limiting view of Christianity. Perhaps I can expand a little. First, there is only one God. Not a God for each religion. Jesus is not God, and never claimed he was. Jesus said that we should be loving and compassionate, and if we were, then we were obedient to God. Do you need to hear that from Jesus or his disciples or messengers? No. Do you need to hear that from the Spirit of God? The Bible tells us that God's Spirit has always been speaking to men and women, even before Jesus lived, and certainly before the Bible existed. It also states that we reject the Spirit of God at our peril. The Spirit of God is nothing more than conscience, the desire to be good, to make more of our lives than just pleasing ourselves. I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime. It also states that we reject the Spirit of God at our peril. I'm with you here. The Spirit of God is nothing more than conscience, the desire to be good, to make more of our lives than just pleasing ourselves.Conscience? That's all? You can't seriously believe that. Are you certain you want to go on record as denying the power of the Holy Spirit by saying He is nothing more than conscience? Odd then that the Holy Spirit has the attributes of God. carm.org/holy-spirit- The Holy Spirit is a person of the Holy Trinity.
- Scripturally always referred to as 'He'.
- The tongues of flame at Pentecost? Whose conscience was that?
- Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit -
thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
- Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Not by the power of her conscience.
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2013 6:10:54 GMT -5
Scripturally always referred to as 'He'. Not so. The spirit of God is sometimes referred to as he because it is God's spirit and God is referred to as he. We should let God have a son, and let God have a spirit, without coming up with a complicated theology that no one understands anyway. John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 6:47:34 GMT -5
What wrote:
I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.
This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 7:25:08 GMT -5
What wrote: I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!"That sounds about right ram......and pretty much complete! That passage just starts to go downhill quickly when the theologians get hold of it.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2013 8:10:42 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying but that is a very limiting view of Christianity. Perhaps I can expand a little. First, there is only one God. Not a God for each religion. Jesus is not God, and never claimed he was. Jesus said that we should be loving and compassionate, and if we were, then we were obedient to God. Do you need to hear that from Jesus or his disciples or messengers? No. Do you need to hear that from the Spirit of God? The Bible tells us that God's Spirit has always been speaking to men and women, even before Jesus lived, and certainly before the Bible existed. It also states that we reject the Spirit of God at our peril. The Spirit of God is nothing more than conscience, the desire to be good, to make more of our lives than just pleasing ourselves. I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime. It also states that we reject the Spirit of God at our peril. I'm with you here. The Spirit of God is nothing more than conscience, the desire to be good, to make more of our lives than just pleasing ourselves.Conscience? That's all? You can't seriously believe that. Are you certain you want to go on record as denying the power of the Holy Spirit by saying He is nothing more than conscience? Odd then that the Holy Spirit has the attributes of God. carm.org/holy-spirit- The Holy Spirit is a person of the Holy Trinity.
- Scripturally always referred to as 'He'.
- The tongues of flame at Pentecost? Whose conscience was that?
- Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit -
thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
- Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Not by the power of her conscience.
The Carm web site seems to be more about slagging different churches and religions than anything else. For example - carm.org/is-catholicism-christianThus, you might wish to take them off your source list, stanne. Now first, you quoted me out of context. Because I had a list of two other things beside 'conscience'. But aside from that 'conscience' is no small thing. I believe that there are many individuals that don't have much of a conscience; the world does that to people. Conscience and empathy or compassion are closely linked. Here is what the Bible says about the importance of 'conscience' in the time before there was a Gospel. Rom 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. Rom 2:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom 2:16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. The question is whether this represents the dealing of the Spirit of God, and based on passages like Exodus 35:30-35 I would argue it does. I've just noticed now that the first mention of the Spirit of God is in the Creation account in Genesis 1. So that suggests the Spirit of God has been working with man since Neanderthal days.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2013 8:12:31 GMT -5
What wrote: I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!" Great choice. Often the Gospel is like a fractal; you see its completeness in many different passages.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 8, 2013 10:00:22 GMT -5
What wrote: I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!" My mini-bible is even shorter: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. EVERYTHING falls into place if those two verses are in place.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 8, 2013 10:03:57 GMT -5
Nope. "Enemies must be shunned" so saith Jesus? Matthew 5:43-44 - Love for Enemies - “You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and those that persecute you." Isn't that what Jesus said? Yes, that is the point that I was making. Whereas MOST workers believe in shunning their so-called enemies and engaging in gossip against their "enemies". I am yet to be able to understand why they don't go to talk with folks like Cherie, or Edgar Massey, or myself in the spirit of brotherly love rather than in the spirit of us vs them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 10:04:13 GMT -5
What wrote: I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!" My mini-bible is even shorter: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. EVERYTHING falls into place if those two verses are in place. Yes that's mine as well. However the two disc version from Luke does give you the bonus feature of loving your neighbour as yourself, demonstrated.
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Post by snow on Apr 8, 2013 10:05:59 GMT -5
Each religion that has ever been started has got some things right. I have always said there is more commonality between religions than most people give them credit for. But that is not because of the religion but because of what humanity is. To say that all people are Christian is like the Muslims saying all people are Muslim. I don't think Christians take too kindly to that assertion and I'm sure other religions and non religions don't take to kindly to being labelled Christian. I don't want to be associated with that label that's for sure. Christians do not have a good reputation and religion in general do not have a good reputation. I do not want to be labelled as any one of them. I don't understand why anyone would try. I am a human being that believes the best way to live life is to be loving and compassionate. Don't put me in a box where I don't belong or want to be. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 8, 2013 10:06:27 GMT -5
My mini-bible is even shorter: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. EVERYTHING falls into place if those two verses are in place. Yes that's mine as well. However the two disc version from Luke does give you the bonus feature of loving your neighbour as yourself, demonstrated. Gotta love bonus tracks with the director's commentary.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 8, 2013 10:07:39 GMT -5
Nope. "Enemies must be shunned" so saith Jesus? Otherwords, you're having a non-worker sanctioned mtg? Do the workers still think you're still a 2x2? Doesn't sound like it to me! Yes, it is a worker sanctioned meeting. We have had workers in the meeting. The meeting has been a real blessing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 10:07:53 GMT -5
What wrote: I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!" Anybody ever read "Where love is, God is" by Tolstoy?
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Post by snow on Apr 8, 2013 10:11:08 GMT -5
My mini-bible is even shorter: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. EVERYTHING falls into place if those two verses are in place. Yes that's mine as well. However the two disc version from Luke does give you the bonus feature of loving your neighbour as yourself, demonstrated. In order to love your neighbor as yourself you have to define what loving yourself means to you. We have been taught not to 'love' ourselves' that we are sinners and so imperfect. So when we look at our neighbor, is that what we see? a sinner that is so imperfect? How do we feel about ourselves when we think that of ourselves? Then what do we think of our neighbor when we see them in this light? Can we truly love what we spend so much time 'hating'? We fret about being sinners etc. We think we fall short. So that would also mean that our neighbor falls short. Does that contribute in any way to how we love our neighbor?
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Post by quizzer on Apr 8, 2013 11:08:44 GMT -5
BTW, I do know from personal experience that opening my mind, much less my heart, to accept religions outside the f&w's is a very hard thing to do. The indoctrination of it being the only true way is hard to cast aside even when you know it is nothing more then a bunch of wool in order to get and keep members. This is the one thing I despise about the 2x2 church and any other church who still holds that they are the only true way. It is a very hard thing also to get it straight in our heads that there is NO Jesus' way, the wording is "Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, the life." He didn't posses it, He was IT. Talking about women preachers, I saw where the Mormon church is allowing females to pray in services. I recently attended an inter-denominational service where a female minister presided over a variety of male ministers from other denominations. It was a wonderful event, and I was greatly impressed with the give-and-take of the different denominations. After all, we were there for an unified purpose and all speaking seemed to recognize this. Made me think I'd found religion again.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 8, 2013 11:12:27 GMT -5
Ask the workers. They know this stuff. In fairness to the workers they do have a method of determining whether a religion is false in their view. Or at least they did have in my day. It was hardly a methodology that would stand up to much scrutiny of course, but there you are. I'm expecting that saradoctal, a man well versed in the level of scrutiny to which claims on the TMB are likely to be subjected to, will have a more well thought out methodology than that promoted by the workers. Is it fair to assume that you have too? Matt10 The only methodology that I've used is simply trying to determine if the congregation is encouraged to interact with themselves and everyone else is a positive, healthy manner. Curiousity, problem-solving, research - these should be givens.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 8, 2013 11:44:15 GMT -5
Scripturally always referred to as 'He'. Not so. The spirit of God is sometimes referred to as he because it is God's spirit and God is referred to as he. We should let God have a son, and let God have a spirit, without coming up with a complicated theology that no one understands anyway. John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. I didn't look up each one but this tells the story. Only a very few. New International Version (©2011) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
New Living Translation (©2007) For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God's children.
English Standard Version (©2001) The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
New American Standard Bible (©1995) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God's children,
International Standard Version (©2012) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
NET Bible (©2006) The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God's children.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) And that Spirit testifies to our spirit that we are sons of God;
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003) The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
American King James Version The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
American Standard Version The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
Douay-Rheims Bible For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God.
Darby Bible Translation The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God.
English Revised Version The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
Webster's Bible Translation The Spirit itself testifieth with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Weymouth New Testament The Spirit Himself bears witness, along with our own spirits, to the fact that we are children of God;
World English Bible The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;
Young's Literal Translation The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;
bible.cc/romans/8-16.htm
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Post by StAnne on Apr 8, 2013 12:00:14 GMT -5
It also states that we reject the Spirit of God at our peril. I'm with you here. The Spirit of God is nothing more than conscience, the desire to be good, to make more of our lives than just pleasing ourselves.Conscience? That's all? You can't seriously believe that. Are you certain you want to go on record as denying the power of the Holy Spirit by saying He is nothing more than conscience? Odd then that the Holy Spirit has the attributes of God. carm.org/holy-spirit- The Holy Spirit is a person of the Holy Trinity.
- Scripturally always referred to as 'He'.
- The tongues of flame at Pentecost? Whose conscience was that?
- Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit -
thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
- Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Not by the power of her conscience.
The Carm web site seems to be more about slagging different churches and religions than anything else. For example - carm.org/is-catholicism-christianThus, you might wish to take them off your source list, stanne. Now first, you quoted me out of context. Because I had a list of two other things beside 'conscience'. But aside from that 'conscience' is no small thing. I believe that there are many individuals that don't have much of a conscience; the world does that to people. Conscience and empathy or compassion are closely linked. Here is what the Bible says about the importance of 'conscience' in the time before there was a Gospel. Rom 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. Rom 2:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom 2:16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. The question is whether this represents the dealing of the Spirit of God, and based on passages like Exodus 35:30-35 I would argue it does. I've just noticed now that the first mention of the Spirit of God is in the Creation account in Genesis 1. So that suggests the Spirit of God has been working with man since Neanderthal days. I used it because it is non-Catholic but fairly good for quick reference. Slagging? (You would be practicing the same then because it doesn't fit with your non-Trinitarian belief? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) Merely stating the difference in held belief that varies from what is really taught about the Holy Spirit isn't what I would term slagging. There is nothing wrong with indicating what others believe if it is done in a factual teaching manner. God did write his moral laws on our hearts. Additionally, we are responsible for forming our own conscience. The gift of the Holy Spirit is a power and source of grace that is beyond those - or as referred to from Haydock - the supernatural graces. Romans 2 Ver. 14-15. When the Gentiles...do by nature, or naturally, that is, without having received any written law, these men are a law to themselves, and have it written in their hearts, as to the existence of a God, and their reason tells them, that many sins are unlawful: they may also do some actions that are morally good, as by giving alms to relieve the poor, honouring their parents, &c. not that these actions, morally good, will suffice for their justification of themselves, or make them deserve a supernatural reward in the kingdom of heaven; but God, out of his infinite mercy, will give them some supernatural graces, by which they come to know, and believe, that he will reward their souls for eternity. Such, says St. Chrysostom, were the dispositions of Melchisedech, Job, Cornelius the Centurion, &c. (Witham)
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Post by StAnne on Apr 8, 2013 12:22:06 GMT -5
Scripturally always referred to as 'He'. Not so. The spirit of God is sometimes referred to as he because it is God's spirit and God is referred to as he. We should let God have a son, and let God have a spirit, without coming up with a complicated theology that no one understands anyway. John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Your John 1:32 refers to the Holy Spirit in the appearance of a dove - so 'it' would be correct. Your 1 Peter 1:11 is mixed, but more heavily weighted to 'he'.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 8, 2013 12:29:34 GMT -5
What wrote: I try to read the words of Jesus in the New Testament in a completely universal way, and it never lets me down. Seriously, try reading the Gospel of Luke some time, not as an invitation to join "Christians", or to go to church, or to receive a profound revelation, but just as if he was speaking to a person that was trying to do good in their life, and as if he was helping them along. Because I believe that is all the Gospel is. It's affirming love and goodness, and letting us know that that is what God wants us to do in lifetime.This can be shortened to Luke 10 vs 25-37 where the gospel is simply explained and demonstrated in a few verses. These passages are my "mini-Bible!" My mini-bible is even shorter: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. EVERYTHING falls into place if those two verses are in place. And on this law does fall all the prophets and apostles.....loving God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as ourselves. True this IS the mini-bible, the scripture that all Gentiles know and most follow.....this is the only law that Paul thought it necessary for his Gentile converts...he didn't see that circumcision was anything to a Gentile convert other then a painful demand.
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