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Post by quizzer on Feb 6, 2013 10:48:19 GMT -5
I agree with you on many of your points. I do think Steve went the right way initially when he went to the overseer. However, when the overseer kicks him out for being concerned and bringing up a serious issue such as this, it seems like there needs to be something else done because the overseer doesn't appear to be in agreement with the seriousness. I wish it was easy for adult abuse victims to come forward and report their abuser. However, it is like in this regard they are still back in the age group when it happened. Unless they have dealt with it, they have a hard time moving past it. So I agree that old wounds could be torn open. However, what should be done about the abuser? I like that you feel there should be counselling for all involved including the abuser. But should they be allowed to get away with it as far as the legal ramifications of their abuse. I don't know how I feel about that. It's definitely a tough decision and my heart goes out to everyone involved in it. Steve was between a rock and a hard place. Still is. Yes. Most of the workers do not have the education or job skills to allow them to leave the work. As such, they're subject to the whim of the overseers, which means not reporting CSA to the authorities. The only outlet that Steve has is to encourage the victim's family and the victim to approach the authorities. Advise this, and have a discussion about the shunning within the 2x2s, and the impact of CSA on a young life. These are all loaded issues, but being able to quietly discuss this with a family may help everyone deal with criminal and emotional issues involved. Sucks to be part of a religious group that can't work with secular law. |
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Post by snow on Feb 6, 2013 11:17:07 GMT -5
I agree with you on many of your points. I do think Steve went the right way initially when he went to the overseer. However, when the overseer kicks him out for being concerned and bringing up a serious issue such as this, it seems like there needs to be something else done because the overseer doesn't appear to be in agreement with the seriousness. I wish it was easy for adult abuse victims to come forward and report their abuser. However, it is like in this regard they are still back in the age group when it happened. Unless they have dealt with it, they have a hard time moving past it. So I agree that old wounds could be torn open. However, what should be done about the abuser? I like that you feel there should be counselling for all involved including the abuser. But should they be allowed to get away with it as far as the legal ramifications of their abuse. I don't know how I feel about that. It's definitely a tough decision and my heart goes out to everyone involved in it. Steve was between a rock and a hard place. Still is. Yes, I am sure he is. There are always options though. We just need the strength to choose them sometimes. |
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Post by sharonw on Feb 6, 2013 21:43:29 GMT -5
Dealing with past abuse is not as straightforward as dealing with recent abuse, my suggestion When the fellowship becomes aware of past abuse, we should keep that person away from children, Get him help to acknowledge what he did was wrong...... no excuses Give the victims all the support they need to heal. Including professional counselling if they want it As I see it, reporting to authorities without (now adult ) victims consent, could open old wounds and cause a whole lot more pain, when dealing with it privately, especially in the early process could achieve a better outcome. Support victims/survivors if they choose to report to police If Steve is trying to clean up the workership and help victims of past abuse, the overseers should have been the right persons to go to start the process. Note I am not suggesting covering up abuse and any current concerns should immediately be reported to police I agree with you on many of your points. I do think Steve went the right way initially when he went to the overseer. However, when the overseer kicks him out for being concerned and bringing up a serious issue such as this, it seems like there needs to be something else done because the overseer doesn't appear to be in agreement with the seriousness. I wish it was easy for adult abuse victims to come forward and report their abuser. However, it is like in this regard they are still back in the age group when it happened. Unless they have dealt with it, they have a hard time moving past it. So I agree that old wounds could be torn open. However, what should be done about the abuser? I like that you feel there should be counselling for all involved including the abuser. But should they be allowed to get away with it as far as the legal ramifications of their abuse. I don't know how I feel about that. It's definitely a tough decision and my heart goes out to everyone involved in it. Actually Snow, you've brought a point out that might help with some abusers and that is the overseers should insist that the alleged abuser get pyschological help or leave the workership and the fellowship period....their continuing in good stead should spin on whether they subject themselves to appropriate psychological counseling. The reason I say that is sometimes when an abuser is not a real pedophile, I understand that they often get to feeling bad about what they've done and they actually do not want to offend in that way again...so if the overseers would do that with a first time allegation, then maybe these workers that are into entertaining themselves due to their sexual frustrations and are utilizing the most vulnerable that is available to them, the they may well be benefited by the counseling. But the only drawback is that IF the abuser gets the requisite counseling then he/she is likely going to expect to go back into the work and not be held responsible for the first allegation any longer....but then if the counseling does any good then those frustrated pedophilial workers will move on and thus saves the overseers' reputations and the works' reputation....just a thought, eh? |
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Post by sharonw on Feb 6, 2013 21:45:58 GMT -5
Steve was between a rock and a hard place. Still is. Yes. Most of the workers do not have the education or job skills to allow them to leave the work. As such, they're subject to the whim of the overseers, which means not reporting CSA to the authorities. The only outlet that Steve has is to encourage the victim's family and the victim to approach the authorities. Advise this, and have a discussion about the shunning within the 2x2s, and the impact of CSA on a young life. These are all loaded issues, but being able to quietly discuss this with a family may help everyone deal with criminal and emotional issues involved. Sucks to be part of a religious group that can't work with secular law. Steve should speak with the victim or the person who told him all the dirt to start with and tell that person that if they don't go to the proper authorities by a set date that he will himself go and report it and he needs to tell them also that he is facing this because he's already lost out with the workers already and the sooner he realizes that the sooner his life is going to mean a bit more then folding under the heavy hand of an overseer who doesn't want to do what's right regardless! Otherwords, Steve has a very large opportunity in this to show the underlings workers and the friends at the same time, that this is how he feels it has to be to face down workers that refuse to budge their powered positions within the workership regardless of how many within the fellowship get hurt over it.....esp. vulnerable children. That when the underling workers and friends start standing up to the bully workers then the sooner the fellowship will change the direction it's been going the past 10-20 yrs. Down the tubes! |
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Post by fixit on Feb 7, 2013 3:31:38 GMT -5
David Leitch and Alan Kitto probably have enough sycophantic supporters, and believers in the descending order of submission doctrine, to do pretty much whatever they like.
Meanwhile, if Steve doesn't buckle under and keep his mouth shut he'll not be accepted back into the work.
That's the politics of a theocracy.
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Post by quizzer on Feb 7, 2013 11:00:01 GMT -5
I agree with you on many of your points. I do think Steve went the right way initially when he went to the overseer. However, when the overseer kicks him out for being concerned and bringing up a serious issue such as this, it seems like there needs to be something else done because the overseer doesn't appear to be in agreement with the seriousness. I wish it was easy for adult abuse victims to come forward and report their abuser. However, it is like in this regard they are still back in the age group when it happened. Unless they have dealt with it, they have a hard time moving past it. So I agree that old wounds could be torn open. However, what should be done about the abuser? I like that you feel there should be counselling for all involved including the abuser. But should they be allowed to get away with it as far as the legal ramifications of their abuse. I don't know how I feel about that. It's definitely a tough decision and my heart goes out to everyone involved in it. Actually Snow, you've brought a point out that might help with some abusers and that is the overseers should insist that the alleged abuser get pyschological help or leave the workership and the fellowship period....their continuing in good stead should spin on whether they subject themselves to appropriate psychological counseling. The reason I say that is sometimes when an abuser is not a real pedophile, I understand that they often get to feeling bad about what they've done and they actually do not want to offend in that way again...so if the overseers would do that with a first time allegation, then maybe these workers that are into entertaining themselves due to their sexual frustrations and are utilizing the most vulnerable that is available to them, the they may well be benefited by the counseling. But the only drawback is that IF the abuser gets the requisite counseling then he/she is likely going to expect to go back into the work and not be held responsible for the first allegation any longer....but then if the counseling does any good then those frustrated pedophilial workers will move on and thus saves the overseers' reputations and the works' reputation....just a thought, eh? There is no reason for someone to remain in the work while they are in therapy for serious offenses. These workers are NOT needed in the work, and should be NOT in meetings with children. Care for the souls of pediophiles, sure, but care for the children first. |
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Post by quizzer on Feb 7, 2013 11:01:28 GMT -5
David Leitch and Alan Kitto probably have enough sycophantic supporters, and believers in the descending order of submission doctrine, to do pretty much whatever they like. Meanwhile, if Steve doesn't buckle under and keep his mouth shut he'll not be accepted back into the work. That's the politics of a theocracy. Thanks be to a mighty God who saves souls in the midst of such travesty. May the meetings under such overseers shrink and vanish. |
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Post by sharonw on Feb 7, 2013 14:26:58 GMT -5
Actually Snow, you've brought a point out that might help with some abusers and that is the overseers should insist that the alleged abuser get pyschological help or leave the workership and the fellowship period....their continuing in good stead should spin on whether they subject themselves to appropriate psychological counseling. The reason I say that is sometimes when an abuser is not a real pedophile, I understand that they often get to feeling bad about what they've done and they actually do not want to offend in that way again...so if the overseers would do that with a first time allegation, then maybe these workers that are into entertaining themselves due to their sexual frustrations and are utilizing the most vulnerable that is available to them, the they may well be benefited by the counseling. But the only drawback is that IF the abuser gets the requisite counseling then he/she is likely going to expect to go back into the work and not be held responsible for the first allegation any longer....but then if the counseling does any good then those frustrated pedophilial workers will move on and thus saves the overseers' reputations and the works' reputation....just a thought, eh? There is no reason for someone to remain in the work while they are in therapy for serious offenses. These workers are NOT needed in the work, and should be NOT in meetings with children. Care for the souls of pediophiles, sure, but care for the children first. Again, it's just a thought to get the overseers to NOT covering up for the alleged abuser, but that in the meantime while other things are done, the alleged abuser could be in therapy and of course, he/she will not be in active work....and the hope is that IF the alleged abuser is guilty of CSA simply because of the sexual frustrations of a celebate lifestyle then he/she will admit to their offense of CSA and will want to not reoffend....and even if they admit to their offense then the authorities have them at the get-go and then the authorities can investigate the alleged crime. However, also in case of a worker being falsely accused, if he/she steps back from the work and enters into pyschological counselling and the authorities investigate and find NOTHING against said worker, then he/she will be allowed back into the work with a clean record...just a thought...it could work. My thought is to give the overseers a better way of handling the alleged abusers UNTIL the authorities investigate and come back with their findings....and that is the worker so accused of CSA or other sexual crimes will NOT be in the work while the investigation is going on, but will be in counselling and has the promise that if they check out clean, then they've lost nothing.... |
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Post by sharonw on Feb 7, 2013 14:30:00 GMT -5
Actually Snow, you've brought a point out that might help with some abusers and that is the overseers should insist that the alleged abuser get pyschological help or leave the workership and the fellowship period....their continuing in good stead should spin on whether they subject themselves to appropriate psychological counseling. The reason I say that is sometimes when an abuser is not a real pedophile, I understand that they often get to feeling bad about what they've done and they actually do not want to offend in that way again...so if the overseers would do that with a first time allegation, then maybe these workers that are into entertaining themselves due to their sexual frustrations and are utilizing the most vulnerable that is available to them, the they may well be benefited by the counseling. But the only drawback is that IF the abuser gets the requisite counseling then he/she is likely going to expect to go back into the work and not be held responsible for the first allegation any longer....but then if the counseling does any good then those frustrated pedophilial workers will move on and thus saves the overseers' reputations and the works' reputation....just a thought, eh? There is no reason for someone to remain in the work while they are in therapy for serious offenses. These workers are NOT needed in the work, and should be NOT in meetings with children. Care for the souls of pediophiles, sure, but care for the children first. I doubt the children receive much help while the case is under investigation....I'm looking at the larger picture on the chance that the allegations are not provable and the worker should have the right to go back into the work if the investigation finds nothing against them and in the meanwhile they've gotten some counseling etc....just like a little checkup psychologically. Providing help for the victims would have to be figured on AFTER the investigation and subsequent trial or guilty plea is over. |
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Post by fixit on Feb 7, 2013 21:57:25 GMT -5
There is no reason for someone to remain in the work while they are in therapy for serious offenses. These workers are NOT needed in the work, and should be NOT in meetings with children. Care for the souls of pediophiles, sure, but care for the children first. I doubt the children receive much help while the case is under investigation....I'm looking at the larger picture on the chance that the allegations are not provable and the worker should have the right to go back into the work if the investigation finds nothing against them and in the meanwhile they've gotten some counseling etc....just like a little checkup psychologically. Providing help for the victims would have to be figured on AFTER the investigation and subsequent trial or guilty plea is over. Most times, the sexually abused child doesn't lay a complaint until they're an adult. Often, the key to resolving their issues is acknowledgment of the horrific crime that was done to them. People who are ignorant of the special nature of child sexual abuse might say that the victim should "build a bridge and move on". It's not that simple. Its a great travesty of justice when victims and their supporters are intimidated or guilt-tripped into shutting up about the crime even if the perpetrator is elderly. David Leitch and Alan Kitto really do need to up-skill themselves on the right way to deal with CSA. |
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Post by quizzer on Feb 8, 2013 10:45:33 GMT -5
There is no reason for someone to remain in the work while they are in therapy for serious offenses. These workers are NOT needed in the work, and should be NOT in meetings with children. Care for the souls of pediophiles, sure, but care for the children first. Again, it's just a thought to get the overseers to NOT covering up for the alleged abuser, but that in the meantime while other things are done, the alleged abuser could be in therapy and of course, he/she will not be in active work....and the hope is that IF the alleged abuser is guilty of CSA simply because of the sexual frustrations of a celebate lifestyle then he/she will admit to their offense of CSA and will want to not reoffend....and even if they admit to their offense then the authorities have them at the get-go and then the authorities can investigate the alleged crime. However, also in case of a worker being falsely accused, if he/she steps back from the work and enters into pyschological counselling and the authorities investigate and find NOTHING against said worker, then he/she will be allowed back into the work with a clean record...just a thought...it could work. My thought is to give the overseers a better way of handling the alleged abusers UNTIL the authorities investigate and come back with their findings....and that is the worker so accused of CSA or other sexual crimes will NOT be in the work while the investigation is going on, but will be in counselling and has the promise that if they check out clean, then they've lost nothing.... Seriously, if a worker accused of CSA stepped out of the work while the investigation was pending and on-going, would we truly miss this worker's labors? We're talking one less speaker at convention, one less person at preps, one worker per gospel meeting, one worker in a meeting. Workers aren't regular visitors in my part of the world, so not having them around isn't a big deal. On the other hand, knowing that worker cared about CSA allegations and was willing to participate in an investigation as well as step out of the work during that time, that would be a big deal to me. A very big deal, and much appreciated. |
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Post by sharonw on Feb 8, 2013 10:53:35 GMT -5
I doubt the children receive much help while the case is under investigation....I'm looking at the larger picture on the chance that the allegations are not provable and the worker should have the right to go back into the work if the investigation finds nothing against them and in the meanwhile they've gotten some counseling etc....just like a little checkup psychologically. Providing help for the victims would have to be figured on AFTER the investigation and subsequent trial or guilty plea is over. Most times, the sexually abused child doesn't lay a complaint until they're an adult. Often, the key to resolving their issues is acknowledgment of the horrific crime that was done to them. People who are ignorant of the special nature of child sexual abuse might say that the victim should "build a bridge and move on". It's not that simple. Its a great travesty of justice when victims and their supporters are intimidated or guilt-tripped into shutting up about the crime even if the perpetrator is elderly. David Leitch and Alan Kitto really do need to up-skill themselves on the right way to deal with CSA. It might be that they themselves would benefit from such said counseling, eh? |
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Post by sharonw on Feb 8, 2013 10:58:09 GMT -5
Again, it's just a thought to get the overseers to NOT covering up for the alleged abuser, but that in the meantime while other things are done, the alleged abuser could be in therapy and of course, he/she will not be in active work....and the hope is that IF the alleged abuser is guilty of CSA simply because of the sexual frustrations of a celebate lifestyle then he/she will admit to their offense of CSA and will want to not reoffend....and even if they admit to their offense then the authorities have them at the get-go and then the authorities can investigate the alleged crime. However, also in case of a worker being falsely accused, if he/she steps back from the work and enters into pyschological counselling and the authorities investigate and find NOTHING against said worker, then he/she will be allowed back into the work with a clean record...just a thought...it could work. My thought is to give the overseers a better way of handling the alleged abusers UNTIL the authorities investigate and come back with their findings....and that is the worker so accused of CSA or other sexual crimes will NOT be in the work while the investigation is going on, but will be in counselling and has the promise that if they check out clean, then they've lost nothing.... Seriously, if a worker accused of CSA stepped out of the work while the investigation was pending and on-going, would we truly miss this worker's labors? We're talking one less speaker at convention, one less person at preps, one worker per gospel meeting, one worker in a meeting. Workers aren't regular visitors in my part of the world, so not having them around isn't a big deal. On the other hand, knowing that worker cared about CSA allegations and was willing to participate in an investigation as well as step out of the work during that time, that would be a big deal to me. A very big deal, and much appreciated. It would be a very big deal! That was my purpose in saying the overseers in general should tell any worker that has been allegedly accused of CSA or any other crime, that if that alledged perpatrator would willing step down from the work and go ahead into counseling(which hurts no one usually) then when the investigation and/or trails are over and the worker has been released permanently from the allegations against them, then they can go back into the work and the overseer and every body else can feel free to have that worker back into their homes because he?she was willing to do that. Course I doubt a real perpatrator would agree to that...but then if they didn't agree to do that they'll get kicked out of the work any way! Who will miss them? Likely the children because children do talk between themselves.... |
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Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2014 12:53:57 GMT -5
Does the secular world have a more effective moral conscience than overseers like David Leitch and Alan Kitto, who chose to fire Stephen Shulz as a minister for reporting child sexual abuse?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 0:26:18 GMT -5
so age of consent(sexual activity) in your country is 16? here in the USA it ranges from 16-18 and in hawaii its 14 years of age...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 3:19:55 GMT -5
Although I don't personally know any of the folks involved here .. I can't help but compare somewhat with our exit from 2x2ism. I can feel for this Steves pain --- but in reality I don't feel bad for his as you worded it. --- I think that like it was for us, this is possibly one of the greatest blessings in his experience. A chance to leave 2x2ism in the past understanding that his expulsion was in the interests of a righteous cause. I doubt if I could have left 2x2ism without the rejection that gave us no other choice -- and am satisfied to today that the whole painful issue was God in his mercy leading us away from something evil into the far, far better life and privelages that we have today. I feel sorry for this Steves pain -- but I hope it turns out to be the blessing for him that it has for us, Edgar Isn't it amazing the wide range of issues that give folks the courage to stand tall, and find something better!!!Edgar it is your second paragraph that puts into words what I have had trouble saying for so long. Thank you. Edgar, It is your second paragraph that puts into words what I have felt for a long time. That was my experience too. Thank you. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 6:36:21 GMT -5
so age of consent(sexual activity) in your country is 16? here in the USA it ranges from 16-18 and in hawaii its 14 years of age... Along with all the differences in consenting ages in the US, it can get a bit more complicated there. For instance, in some states with the age of consent at 16, there is allowance for sexual consent between 14-16 if the other party is close in age, like 2-5 years. For instance, a state that has a consent age of 16 may not bring charges forward on a 17 year old in a consented sexual contact with a 15 year old, but the same "consented" act would bring automatic charges if the other person is 21 years old or older. |
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 26, 2014 8:32:54 GMT -5
so age of consent(sexual activity) in your country is 16? here in the USA it ranges from 16-18 and in hawaii its 14 years of age... Along with all the differences in consenting ages in the US, it can get a bit more complicated there. For instance, in some states with the age of consent at 16, there is allowance for sexual consent between 14-16 if the other party is close in age, like 2-5 years. For instance, a state that has a consent age of 16 may not bring charges forward on a 17 year old in a consented sexual contact with a 15 year old, but the same "consented" act would bring automatic charges if the other person is 21 years old or older. To further complicate matters- in some states, Alabama for example, statutory rape is 16, but one may get married at 14 with both parents' consent. I call this Bible belt (il)logic. Marriage good- even for teens at 14. Fornication bad for same age teens. Even though the act is the same. |
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Post by snow on Mar 26, 2014 10:20:03 GMT -5
Along with all the differences in consenting ages in the US, it can get a bit more complicated there. For instance, in some states with the age of consent at 16, there is allowance for sexual consent between 14-16 if the other party is close in age, like 2-5 years. For instance, a state that has a consent age of 16 may not bring charges forward on a 17 year old in a consented sexual contact with a 15 year old, but the same "consented" act would bring automatic charges if the other person is 21 years old or older. To further complicate matters- in some states, Alabama for example, statutory rape is 16, but one may get married at 14 with both parents' consent. I call this Bible belt (il)logic. Marriage good- even for teens at 14. Fornication bad for same age teens. Even though the act is the same. That was well thought out... not! |
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Post by magpie on Dec 18, 2014 4:39:25 GMT -5
Hypothetical?What for? Of course A church leader with knowledge of any deviant criminal problems MUST take responsability of notifying relevant authorities. GUILTY of lots of things in the law that has been written to protect children, young teens and the vulnerables. "BIG QUESTION WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT", or just hypotheticals or going around in circles again? David Leitch unjustly supported Ernie Barry at the Warrigal Court,(the same Court that convicted Chris Chandler), [name deleted] a known $5000 a day psychologist, who represented Tony Mokbel,(saying there he,Tony , had learnt by his mistakes)was hired for Barry's defence? Leitch was there,with Barry, knowing that the frustrated Warrigal Police "knew" of 12 (TWELVE)at least ,more victims and Leitch, heard the LIES not the TRUTH that there was only one victim? How can you allow Leitch to ever again take a platform at any meetings or annual conventions,"HOW CAN YOU",the ones who claim truth? He should have supported Barry to prostrate himself in front of the Judge and say "I am in your hands,I want to confess and repent this moment to the damage I have caused so many lives"."Isnt that the "TRUTH" Leitch as "BISHOP"should have demanded.. "NOW",the evergreen gossip vine has a, "I feel", relevent angle,"WHAT IS THE HOLD BARRY HAS OVER LEITCH"?MMMM?. "NOW" never ever go to a worker alone with an accusation, "?"later on you will hear a different version getting around,and you just may feel a bit isolated (I know from experience).Go for Biblical instructions as, 1 Timothy,5,verse,19+..Do not listen to an accusation against an Elder unless it is brought by two or more witnesses. (The witness of one in Middle East law could not convict,why 2000 years ago people must go out and speak 2x2,not a Western Law or tradition of course).Rebuke "publically" all those who commit sins,so that the rest may be afraid.In the presence of GOD and of CHRIST JESUS and of the HOLY ANGELS."I" solemnly call upon you to "OBEY" these "INSTRUCTIONS"without showing any prejudice or "FAVOUR"to anyone in anthing you do.(22) BE IN NO HURRY TO LAY HANDS ON PEOPLE TO DEDICATE THEM TO THE LORDS SERVICE. Got that?,or will you just sit there and allow to go on the injustices to "decades" of victims their families and especially siblings,and the known 12 or more of Barry's victims that [deleted] spent your $$$s covering up? WHAT would God have you supposed decent moral few do,pray about that and proceed as collectively,and publically as possible,then allow the Holy Spirit lead you to a clean Godly active service amongst your Christian neighbours,you will need it as you who act in Gods name will soon feel isolated if not fully ostracised by pressure,verbally or gossip.The judgemental,compassionless exclusive Christian Conventions(formally Christian Assemblies of Aust, oops no name,sorry) sure dont sound to much like a family of my God?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 5:09:47 GMT -5
A persistent TMB allegation against my church is this:
"they talk about the Workers instead of Jesus."
Well side by side on the TMB I notice two threads,
one about a certain David Leach (Worker) and my own
thread about another David, King of Israel and his
vision of the Messiah.
Workers get all the attention on the TMB. My own
David thread might garner half a dozen replies if
I am lucky. And most of those replies would be to
ridicule the thread.
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Post by withlove on Dec 18, 2014 19:44:40 GMT -5
A persistent TMB allegation against my church is this: "they talk about the Workers instead of Jesus." Well side by side on the TMB I notice two threads, one about a certain David Leach (Worker) and my own thread about another David, King of Israel and his vision of the Messiah. Workers get all the attention on the TMB. My own David thread might garner half a dozen replies if I am lucky. And most of those replies would be to ridicule the thread. The message board is specifically about the denomination, though. That might be why people are more active on threads about how the church runs. |
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Post by Lee on Dec 18, 2014 21:25:16 GMT -5
A persistent TMB allegation against my church is this: "they talk about the Workers instead of Jesus." Well side by side on the TMB I notice two threads, one about a certain David Leach (Worker) and my own thread about another David, King of Israel and his vision of the Messiah. Workers get all the attention on the TMB. My own David thread might garner half a dozen replies if I am lucky. And most of those replies would be to ridicule the thread. I liked your posts/your Jewish Messiah thread a lot. It might seem like it on TMB but not all of us exes are atheists. |
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Post by magpie on Dec 20, 2014 16:54:46 GMT -5
BERT, Because of Jesus teaching,inc MORALCLARITY-people do and will make a lot of noise when they see an unbiblical closed exclusive judgemental sect,ignoring Jesus and the epistles teachings. these things include unbiblical celibacy demands,lying over namelessness,claiming only true way,ostracisms,coverups of criminal sexual deviants,no justice or welfare to help the decades of their victims,prepared to use gossip to persecute someone of less status,demand of visual bondage to judge commitment,judgment often scathing of other commited christians and groups,no deacons or pastorings in their system to encourage and strengthen especially those with personal battles,queries and victims of worker CSA,adultries,rapes(homo/lesbo),etc. Jesus Love and Teachings are one thing we wont neglect in our battle to warn people the dangers of unbiblical bondage and fear workers and their deceptions hold over them. Could write a lot more,EG-mental breakdowns,suicides,dividing families,etc.
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Post by magpie on Dec 21, 2014 16:21:32 GMT -5
Sorry Bewrt I overlooked a most important. Playing God? Refusing people to partake of the Lords Table The Communion,Sacraments,Emblems,etc)it is the "Lords Table", It is between the partaker and God,a heresy to come between partaker and God. The Holy Spirit will lay a message of ones heart mind,during that time.
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Post by magpie on Feb 10, 2015 4:48:15 GMT -5
"OPEN OUR EYES LORD"? Moral clarity,think of all those victims of Mr E Barry? 12 known,right,by Warrigal Police.These 12 were not revealed to the Bench,so the same Psychologist as ganglands Tony Mokbel used cost the 2x2 members $5000.oo per day to get Barry's sentence suspended. David Leitch attended,also knowing of those sick horrible crimes (by the way Royal Commission follows all these boards MMMMM?),committing a jailable? crime himself for not notifying authorities of the deviants other CSA's Barry was hiding. Protecting the supposed image of the "sect".What would God have God wanted of Leitch and Barry at that court room? What would God have wanted for those his little ones? Welfare and Justice are a couple of great healing items the compassionless sects ministry have never ever allowed to enter their work Apologies show weakness it appears. HOW COULD DAVID LEITCH AND MORAL CLARITY BE IN THE SAME SENTENCE,IT IS AN OXYMORON OF THE WORST DEGREE>ask victims,their siblings and families.The more things are covered up the further their light is under a bushell. Jesus was not just interested in the church,"BUT",the "WHOLE" community.
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Post by magpie on Feb 10, 2015 5:19:42 GMT -5
Bert,Bert,BERT-David the King of Israel? Yes spoke of the comming messiah? But was a callous murderer,putting a husband into the front row at battle so as to have an adulterous affair with the wife. BUT he (David) fell before God and repented pleaded yes repented before his judge. Ernest Barry with the guidence of his Bishop Leitch,should have pleaded and repented before the judges sitting before him.. OH,some say Barry made a mistake"A MISTAKE IS A MISTAKE" and "SIN IS SIN -SOMETHING YOU DO KNOWING IT IS WRONG" ----- A great study,read some web/commentries on SIN AND MISTAKES,simple clear biblical subject. Over the decades of CSA and other sexual adulteries "etc" amongst the 2x2 workers,bro/sister NOT ONE NO NOT ONE WAS A MISTAKE. But King Davids repentence was recorded amongst Gods word as an example for all times,this does not delete the post Irvine era, Irvines preachers and followers sadly "for their victims" did and still do.
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Post by magpie on Feb 16, 2017 17:19:02 GMT -5
When this was originally placed here on the board,I had not studied,the word,ANTINOMIAN, or realized that the secret sect 2x2s were such. Molest a child or commit other sexual things on a Saturday,then preach the Irvine illusive exclusive doctrine to the followers including the childs family on a Sunday as though nothing was had ever happened. Leitch helping the perpetrators and dismissing David Schultz puts him into the theology of ANTINOMIANISM,doesn't it. Sad but there is people who still support and believe in this sect of those that judge "YOU",as worthy or unworthy.
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