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Post by aussie22 on Jan 18, 2013 18:03:00 GMT -5
Hi Fixit,
You mentioned the letter that D.L. sent out last June indicated that he was cooperating with the police, yes and we fell for that one too until we found out the he was not asked by the police to do that, but it was the police that required from D.L. a list of all homes that a certain worker had visited and stayed in, so the police could contact each of them.
Unfortunately D.L. did not do this properly, and evidently he only seen fit to send his own letters to certain people.
Hopefully D.L. and any other workers that may have been involved in the removal of S.S. and him being sent home has not been to serve as a warning to other workers and friends to keep quiet regarding CSA.
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Post by menatwork on Jan 18, 2013 18:05:29 GMT -5
The letter David Leitch sent out in June last year seems to indicate that he was co-operating with the police at that time. I wonder what Sergeant Darren Eldridge would feel about David Leitch dismissing Steve Schultz from the work for reporting child sexual abuse in the ministry? Is there any way to know if the person accused is still being investigated by the police? Probably not--just wondering. The worker named in the letter sent out by David Leitch in June last year is still being investigated by police and is expected to be charged in the near future. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 18, 2013 18:22:39 GMT -5
I am sure that David was making statement. One such was that the worker being referred to was an old man nearing 'retirement'. He evidently thinks that this somehow means that his past shouldn't be discussed?
I don't think that he intended to make some of the statements that he did through through his actions...... He now has gotten quite a few people that were 'on the fence' in regard to how he has handled various issues to pushing them off the fence and losing their trust and respect in dealing with church matters. Pretty much now has become a weak and ineffective leader in the church it appears. Without trust, and without respect...... he will no longer be considered a spiritual leader by many.
You can't lead people who don't see you as a leader.........
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 18, 2013 18:25:25 GMT -5
Clearday is that you again as "admin" ? Clearday is not the admin of the board. (nor am I) |
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 18, 2013 18:27:01 GMT -5
Is there any way to know if the person accused is still being investigated by the police? Probably not--just wondering. The worker named in the letter sent out by David Leitch in June last year is still being investigated by police and is expected to be charged in the near future. And this issue concerning Steve is about a different worker than that. One that has been reported in the past to overseers, and one that has also been reported elsewhere. Hopefully the Royal Commission will be able to look at all the information about the various institutions that will be submitted to them, and find ways to help bring about needed change in reporting issues. |
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Post by mod5 on Jan 18, 2013 18:32:07 GMT -5
Clearday is that you again as "admin" ? I can assure you that Clearday is not Admin of TMB and I suspect would not aspire to this position  As Admin has mentioned the moderating team is committed to ensuring that TMB continues to be a robust forum for discussion and will not tolerate posts that are liable in content. We look forward to your continuing participation. |
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Post by What Hat on Jan 18, 2013 18:55:00 GMT -5
I wonder why they allow people here to mention names yet remain anonymous themselves? seems kind of cowardly really The only reason I remain anonymous is to retain my privacy from Internet searches on Google. Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me and I will provide full disclosure on personal details. That was also the case when I was worshipping with the friends. I do recommend that, in general, people not use their real name on any Internet board. For example, do you want your boss, who is an NRA nut, finding out that you think Obama's daughters should have Secret Service protection? Probably not. |
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Post by What Hat on Jan 18, 2013 19:01:33 GMT -5
Clearday is that you again as "admin" ? Is imputing ill motives just the way you go about your business, or is it something we said that we're not aware of? |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 18, 2013 19:05:11 GMT -5
Clearday, as bad as I feel for the expelled young worker, perhaps it IS God who is protecting him because of his zeal for moral truths.That said, it seems that the overseer involved is not any different then the overseer that recently allowed IH to be at conv. and to testify! Why? Most likely that overseer didn't feel he had any room to judge IH harshly for IH says he has repented and we need to forgive him, just like that overseer also has had to repent more then once and has been forgiven by his peer overseers and over-overseer. The overseers that are presently in power in the 2x2 fellowship are very much apt to be found in the same boat as those whom we are calling to be riddened out of the fellowship, though it may not be a crime they've done, but the moral turpitude is the same. I've been very grieved to hear about worker after worker who has had loose morals and are still in the work and most of them in overseer positions. Those overseers who have made judgements against the friends when their own life was in moral disarray! Time to fold it all in, friends and keep you little Sun. a.m. mtgs. for that seems to be what a majority of Christian like and there's nothing wrong with them..... Well said SharonW. I agree totally. This was my experience 40 years ago when I was exed from the 2X2's. I was upset at the time but looking back it was one of the greatest blessings in my life. I hope Steve Schultz makes a total break like I did and continues his love for God and morality. Ausiesteve, do you know Steve Schultz? If so or have a way to speak to him and just give him support there in the downunder, would you do that? I hope it would at least let him know that he is walking the same pathy that many have already walked before him...maybe not for the same reason, but it was for the same sentencing. Thanks, AS! |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 18, 2013 19:07:35 GMT -5
Well said SharonW. I agree totally. This was my experience 40 years ago when I was exed from the 2X2's. I was upset at the time but looking back it was one of the greatest blessings in my life. I hope Steve Schultz makes a total break like I did and continues his love for God and morality. It bodes ill for the church if the best continue to get pushed out. It may well bode ill for the church, but IF the church cannot stand together against the morally sound folks then perhaps it needs to be ILL for them......to sit back and allow their ministers to treat one who is zealous of good behaviours....that says a whole lot, doesn't it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 19:10:40 GMT -5
Clearday is that you again as "admin" ? My previous post stated I am Clearday. I'll try to make this clear as day. Clearday is my name on this forum, and it is my only name. Hope that helps. |
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Post by Gene on Jan 18, 2013 20:17:13 GMT -5
I wonder why they allow people here to mention names yet remain anonymous themselves? seems kind of cowardly really The only reason I remain anonymous is to retain my privacy from Internet searches on Google. Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me and I will provide full disclosure on personal details. That was also the case when I was worshipping with the friends. I do recommend that, in general, people not use their real name on any Internet board. For example, do you want your boss, who is an NRA nut, finding out that you think Obama's daughters should have Secret Service protection? Probably not. I stopped posting with my full name for the same reason. Although, when one does a google search on my full name one pulls up a famous actor, a famous dancer, and a famous baseball player, each with hundreds if not thousands of hits. 3 guesses which one of them is me  |
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Post by Done4now on Jan 18, 2013 20:37:50 GMT -5
The only reason I remain anonymous is to retain my privacy from Internet searches on Google. Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me and I will provide full disclosure on personal details. That was also the case when I was worshipping with the friends. I do recommend that, in general, people not use their real name on any Internet board. For example, do you want your boss, who is an NRA nut, finding out that you think Obama's daughters should have Secret Service protection? Probably not. I stopped posting with my full name for the same reason. Although, when one does a google search on my full name one pulls up a famous actor, a famous dancer, and a famous baseball player, each with hundreds if not thousands of hits. 3 guesses which one of them is me I agree--for safety and security reasons alone no one should use their "real name" on a message board. That is not "cowardly" it is "smart". Does anyone remember when Jason had his home address and other personal information posted to intimidate him? Someone who gets angry at something a person says can do a lot of things to bully them online. Of course--a lot of us know people on here in real life--and they have us figured out, so we aren't all completely anonymous. With others, their real identity is known to most of us--we just don't use their full name when addressing them. People share personal details and identifying information with those who they feel comfortable with--not with the whole world unless THEY choose to do so and that is the way it should be. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 22:53:44 GMT -5
Scary isn't it. After all Mr Leitch's phone number is now known to TMB members. He may have to change the number. Christ and the Disciples never had that problem.
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Post by fixit on Jan 19, 2013 4:14:51 GMT -5
I am sure that David was making statement. One such was that the worker being referred to was an old man nearing 'retirement'. He evidently thinks that this somehow means that his past shouldn't be discussed? There's a striking similarity between how the workers are responding to child sexual abuse in their ranks and how other institutions have been responding. This from the CLAN report: ‘The perpetrator is old and frail; leave him in peace’.www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/fcdc/inquiries/57th/Child_Abuse_Inquiry/CLAN_17-Dec-12.pdfThese sex offenders are not too "old and frail" to preach from the platform yet they're shielded from having to answer for their crimes? Does the ministry not care about the need for victims to get some acknowledgment of the crimes so they can heal and move on? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 9:57:02 GMT -5
I am sure that David was making statement. One such was that the worker being referred to was an old man nearing 'retirement'. He evidently thinks that this somehow means that his past shouldn't be discussed? There's a striking similarity between how the workers are responding to child sexual abuse in their ranks and how other religious institutions had been responding. This from the CLAN report: ‘The perpetrator is old and frail; leave him in peace’.www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/fcdc/inquiries/57th/Child_Abuse_Inquiry/CLAN_17-Dec-12.pdfThese sex offenders are not too "old and frail" to preach from the platform yet they're shielded from having to answer for their crimes? Does the ministry not care about the need for victims to get some acknowledgment of the crimes so they can heal and move on? It's all the same moral morass. Whether you cover for the perpetrator by saying something like this in this case: "he's getting old and ready to retire" or use one of the many other cover ups, it indicates an absence of any moral fiber. We've seen it all in this church just like any other church trying to protect its perpetrators, ignore the victims and appear righteous. Participants in the CLAN report indicate they have seen what we have been seeing in the 2x2 church: Blaming the victim. We hear them say, ‘The girl was wicked and used her seductive powers against the priest or
the adult’. They blame the victims or their families. We have got examples of people saying that the children
come from immoral families, and what else could you expect from such a family?
And of course cover-ups and collusion are rife. Reputations of institutions and churches had to be protected
first, and staff stood by each other against the child. In many instances children were viciously beaten for
making complaints, often in front of other children to make an example of them as a deterrent against future
complaints. The lack of follow-up in these instances led to further abuse because the abusers understood they
could get off scot-free.
We have systemic blindness, where the crimes are rarely recorded, hardly ever recorded, so the systemic
patterns of crimes against children were unnoticed. Now in adult life complainants are being told there are no
records — they have been accidently lost, destroyed by flood or fire, which is an ironic act of God. Therefore
not only are the prospects of taking legal action minimised but also the prospects of finding and reuniting with
lost family — siblings and parents — are absolutely shattered.
Then we have institutional non-cooperation. They say, ‘These nuns or brothers are all dead now so we can’t tell
you the name of the abusers’, ‘The perpetrator is old and frail; leave him in peace’. By contrast there is no
regard for the peace of mind of the old and frail survivor. |
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Post by Greg on Jan 19, 2013 10:19:45 GMT -5
There's a striking similarity between how the workers are responding to child sexual abuse in their ranks and how other religious institutions had been responding. This from the CLAN report: ‘The perpetrator is old and frail; leave him in peace’.www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/fcdc/inquiries/57th/Child_Abuse_Inquiry/CLAN_17-Dec-12.pdfThese sex offenders are not too "old and frail" to preach from the platform yet they're shielded from having to answer for their crimes? Does the ministry not care about the need for victims to get some acknowledgment of the crimes so they can heal and move on? It's all the same moral morass. Whether you cover for the perpetrator by saying something like this in this case: "he's getting old and ready to retire" or use one of the many other cover ups, it indicates an absence of any moral fiber. We've seen it all in this church just like any other church trying to protect its perpetrators, ignore the victims and appear righteous. Participants in the CLAN report indicate they have seen what we have been seeing in the 2x2 church: Blaming the victim. We hear them say, ‘The girl was wicked and used her seductive powers against the priest or
the adult’. They blame the victims or their families. We have got examples of people saying that the children
come from immoral families, and what else could you expect from such a family?
And of course cover-ups and collusion are rife. Reputations of institutions and churches had to be protected
first, and staff stood by each other against the child. In many instances children were viciously beaten for
making complaints, often in front of other children to make an example of them as a deterrent against future
complaints. The lack of follow-up in these instances led to further abuse because the abusers understood they
could get off scot-free.
We have systemic blindness, where the crimes are rarely recorded, hardly ever recorded, so the systemic
patterns of crimes against children were unnoticed. Now in adult life complainants are being told there are no
records — they have been accidently lost, destroyed by flood or fire, which is an ironic act of God. Therefore
not only are the prospects of taking legal action minimised but also the prospects of finding and reuniting with
lost family — siblings and parents — are absolutely shattered.
Then we have institutional non-cooperation. They say, ‘These nuns or brothers are all dead now so we can’t tell
you the name of the abusers’, ‘The perpetrator is old and frail; leave him in peace’. By contrast there is no
regard for the peace of mind of the old and frail survivor.And to reconcile: - We have all fallen short, missed the mark. - No one is perfect and without sin but Jesus. - He that forgives not will not be forgiven. |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 19, 2013 11:17:32 GMT -5
The only reason I remain anonymous is to retain my privacy from Internet searches on Google. Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me and I will provide full disclosure on personal details. That was also the case when I was worshipping with the friends. I do recommend that, in general, people not use their real name on any Internet board. For example, do you want your boss, who is an NRA nut, finding out that you think Obama's daughters should have Secret Service protection? Probably not. I stopped posting with my full name for the same reason. Although, when one does a google search on my full name one pulls up a famous actor, a famous dancer, and a famous baseball player, each with hundreds if not thousands of hits. 3 guesses which one of them is me I'm not certain there's a whole lot of difference between an actor and a dancer, but I'm going for dancer for you? |
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Post by Gene on Jan 19, 2013 13:34:11 GMT -5
I stopped posting with my full name for the same reason. Although, when one does a google search on my full name one pulls up a famous actor, a famous dancer, and a famous baseball player, each with hundreds if not thousands of hits. 3 guesses which one of them is me I'm not certain there's a whole lot of difference between an actor and a dancer, but I'm going for dancer for you? Well, I'm certainly not the baseball player! I felt forced to be in Little League as a kid; that was when I first felt I was a total failure and a genetic freak! Alas, I never learned to dance. It was against our religion. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 19, 2013 13:41:18 GMT -5
I wonder why they allow people here to mention names yet remain anonymous themselves? seems kind of cowardly really The only reason I remain anonymous is to retain my privacy from Internet searches on Google. Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me and I will provide full disclosure on personal details. That was also the case when I was worshipping with the friends. I do recommend that, in general, people not use their real name on any Internet board. For example, do you want your boss, who is an NRA nut, finding out that you think Obama's daughters should have Secret Service protection? Probably not.
It is a matter of not only you own protection, but your whole family as well.
You can call it cowardly if you like, but I call it just good sense
You never know who could take offense at something that you say & decide to do something about it!
(Obama's children have Secret Service protection. A President's whole family does not only while he/she is in office but for the rest of their lives.) |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 19, 2013 13:57:11 GMT -5
There's a striking similarity between how the workers are responding to child sexual abuse in their ranks and how other religious institutions had been responding. Blaming the victim. We hear them say,
‘The girl was wicked and used her seductive powers against the priest or
the adult’.
They blame the victims or their families. We have got examples of people saying that the children
come from immoral families, and what else could you expect from such a family?
The old attitude of "she asked for it", "she shouldn't have dressed that way," "she shouldn't have been in that place", "she shouldn't have been alone."
And of course, it is[/i] Biblical! Eve was blamed for the downfall of "poor" Adam! |
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Post by What Hat on Jan 19, 2013 14:23:43 GMT -5
The only reason I remain anonymous is to retain my privacy from Internet searches on Google. Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me and I will provide full disclosure on personal details. That was also the case when I was worshipping with the friends. I do recommend that, in general, people not use their real name on any Internet board. For example, do you want your boss, who is an NRA nut, finding out that you think Obama's daughters should have Secret Service protection? Probably not. I stopped posting with my full name for the same reason. Although, when one does a google search on my full name one pulls up a famous actor, a famous dancer, and a famous baseball player, each with hundreds if not thousands of hits. 3 guesses which one of them is me Yogi Berra? When you do a Google search on my name, you get me, my grandfather, my uncle, my great-great granduncle, or any of a number of cousins and distant relatives all of whom have exactly the same first and last name. But mostly you will get me. |
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Post by What Hat on Jan 19, 2013 14:29:57 GMT -5
The only reason I remain anonymous is to retain my privacy from Internet searches on Google. Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me and I will provide full disclosure on personal details. That was also the case when I was worshipping with the friends. I do recommend that, in general, people not use their real name on any Internet board. For example, do you want your boss, who is an NRA nut, finding out that you think Obama's daughters should have Secret Service protection? Probably not.
It is a matter of not only you own protection, but your whole family as well.
You can call it cowardly if you like, but I call it just good sense
You never know who could take offense at something that you say & decide to do something about it!
(Obama's children have Secret Service protection. A President's whole family does not only while he/she is in office but for the rest of their lives.)The Obama thing is a reference to the following - www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/nra-slams-obama-as-elitist-hypocrite-for-secret-service-protection-of-daughters/article7408738/Check the comments to see the Canadian response. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 19, 2013 15:14:23 GMT -5
It's all the same moral morass. Whether you cover for the perpetrator by saying something like this in this case: "he's getting old and ready to retire" or use one of the many other cover ups, it indicates an absence of any moral fiber. We've seen it all in this church just like any other church trying to protect its perpetrators, ignore the victims and appear righteous. Participants in the CLAN report indicate they have seen what we have been seeing in the 2x2 church: Blaming the victim. We hear them say, ‘The girl was wicked and used her seductive powers against the priest or
the adult’. They blame the victims or their families. We have got examples of people saying that the children
come from immoral families, and what else could you expect from such a family?
And of course cover-ups and collusion are rife. Reputations of institutions and churches had to be protected
first, and staff stood by each other against the child. In many instances children were viciously beaten for
making complaints, often in front of other children to make an example of them as a deterrent against future
complaints. The lack of follow-up in these instances led to further abuse because the abusers understood they
could get off scot-free.
We have systemic blindness, where the crimes are rarely recorded, hardly ever recorded, so the systemic
patterns of crimes against children were unnoticed. Now in adult life complainants are being told there are no
records — they have been accidently lost, destroyed by flood or fire, which is an ironic act of God. Therefore
not only are the prospects of taking legal action minimised but also the prospects of finding and reuniting with
lost family — siblings and parents — are absolutely shattered.
Then we have institutional non-cooperation. They say, ‘These nuns or brothers are all dead now so we can’t tell
you the name of the abusers’, ‘The perpetrator is old and frail; leave him in peace’. By contrast there is no
regard for the peace of mind of the old and frail survivor.And to reconcile: - We have all fallen short, missed the mark. - No one is perfect and without sin but Jesus. - He that forgives not will not be forgiven. That's true. But are they sound reasons for accepting child sexual abusers preaching from the platform and staying in our children's homes? Would you forgive a man the moment he murders your daughter and then enable him to murder your son as well? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 18:26:19 GMT -5
You know, Mr Fixit, the problem isn't with a fallen worker (some of whom wind up as exes on the TMB) but its with those who can't be criticized of faulted.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 19:43:23 GMT -5
Which ex-workers on the TMB are "fallen"? Most claim to have stood up in their integrity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 19:51:15 GMT -5
Can't comment too much on "integrity" because I don't know the people, nor their circumstances. But you can discern when someone shows a bad spirit. This is seen in mockery; justification; hate and bitterness.
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Post by Done4now on Jan 19, 2013 20:02:20 GMT -5
Can't comment too much on "integrity" because I don't know the people, nor their circumstances. But you can discern when someone shows a bad spirit. This is seen in mockery; justification; hate and bitterness. be more specific. which ex-workers on here are you accusing of having a bad spirit? Gene is the only ex-worker who has participated on this thread as far as I know--are you sniping at him? If so -- the sniping shows more of a "bad spirit" than anything I have ever seen him say??? BTW---the charge of having a "bad spirit" reminds me of the old "crimes against the State" in any Totalitarian regime. Something that sounds so sinister and evil! Yet, is so vague and substance-less that is tends to be whatever the "regime" defines it to be. Very dangerous for those under people who try to have such power over them. |
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