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Post by oldsoul on Jul 26, 2012 2:32:41 GMT -5
An open letter to Leslie White.
Dear Leslie,
I do not know where you are staying since leaving the work, but I trust that someone reading this can get this letter to you.
I have been giving much thought to the events that have led to this point. As I read the scripture, I like to see how the Spirit leads in situations to heal and forward the Kingdom of heaven. I consider what it would be like to be in your shoes. You are past 75 years old now. As you look back over your many years in the work, you can reflect on the many who have come to know Jesus through your ministry. There are handfuls of lives who have entered into the harvest field under your care. I love the spirit of the apostles we read of in the Gospels. When Jesus was telling his apostles that there was one who would betray him, the response was, "Is it I, Lord?" This is the Godly response in any situation. Then Jesus himself in John 17 tells His Father that "Those that thou gavest me, have I kept, and none are lost except the son of perdition." So Jesus felt personally responsible for those who were under His care.
We often think of the work you have been involved in for the past 40+ years to be one of the greatest works on earth, to see the re-creation of God in the lives of men and women as they sit under the sound of the gospel. Now that you are no longer available to be preaching the gospel, there is a work that can be done which may be more beneficial than all the work that has been done so far, that is the work of restoration in the lives you have had charge of over your lifetime.
If you consider every worker who hasn't continued that you have had charge of since becoming an overseer many years ago, and every family who has stopped going to meeting, you will find a great work of restoration that can be done. It will require a spirit of humility to give up the right to be right and accept full responsibility for every soul that has been hindered in any way. If you humble yourself and approach every situation with the spirit of "Is it I?" that is the cause in any way that someone has stumbled, then restoration can begin. If you take responsibility for every soul you have had dealings with and treat it as though their blood is on your hands, and do whatever is necessary to see that souls are healed then restoration can continue. Imagine the souls who were called to the work being restored to serve agan!! There were 14 who left the work in a five year period in Colorado. Add to that the hundreds of other workers who were unable to continue under your leadership over the years. There is such a massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance. No one is against you, Leslie, for your soul is in the balance as well. There are many people praying for God's Will to be accomplished. I believe Jesus Christ is standing at the right hand of God, and all the angels are watching and praying that you would have strength enough to humble yourself, that you also could be restored, and all would not be lost.
As for the current situation and what you have been accused of, only you and those involved know the truth of the matter. But all God's children and the Kingdom of Heaven are taking notice if you are choosing to subject yourself to man's laws, or hold yourself accountable to the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven. If we rely on the laws that men have put on the books to keep society civil, then know that those laws can be manipulated such that innocent men are found guilty, and guilty men go free. As hard as men strive for true justice, sometimes justice is not served and penalties are to soft, or too harsh for the individual case. What would it look like to trust in the laws of God? Again, if you were to humble yourself and address each of your accusers, acknowledging any misconduct on your behalf, including even the hint of impropriety, and then throw yourself on their mercies and beg for their forgivness, you might find that with God's strength they could find it in their heart to forgive you. They could then choose to release you from the bonds of man's laws, but know that you would be held accountable to a much higher Court. There are those ready to forgive, but it is impossiable to forgive someone who feels they have done nothing wrong. It would be far better to admit being wrong on this side of eternity, than to wait and find no forgiveness possiable on the other side.
A brother in Christ.
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 26, 2012 7:30:31 GMT -5
An open letter to Leslie White. Dear Leslie, I do not know where you are staying since leaving the work, but I trust that someone reading this can get this letter to you. I have been giving much thought to the events that have led to this point. As I read the scripture, I like to see how the Spirit leads in situations to heal and forward the Kingdom of heaven. I consider what it would be like to be in your shoes. You are past 75 years old now. As you look back over your many years in the work, you can reflect on the many who have come to know Jesus through your ministry. There are handfuls of lives who have entered into the harvest field under your care. I love the spirit of the apostles we read of in the Gospels. When Jesus was telling his apostles that there was one who would betray him, the response was, "Is it I, Lord?" This is the Godly response in any situation. Then Jesus himself in John 17 tells His Father that "Those that thou gavest me, have I kept, and none are lost except the son of perdition." So Jesus felt personally responsible for those who were under His care. We often think of the work you have been involved in for the past 40+ years to be one of the greatest works on earth, to see the re-creation of God in the lives of men and women as they sit under the sound of the gospel. Now that you are no longer available to be preaching the gospel, there is a work that can be done which may be more beneficial than all the work that has been done so far, that is the work of restoration in the lives you have had charge of over your lifetime. If you consider every worker who hasn't continued that you have had charge of since becoming an overseer many years ago, and every family who has stopped going to meeting, you will find a great work of restoration that can be done. It will require a spirit of humility to give up the right to be right and accept full responsibility for every soul that has been hindered in any way. If you humble yourself and approach every situation with the spirit of "Is it I?" that is the cause in any way that someone has stumbled, then restoration can begin. If you take responsibility for every soul you have had dealings with and treat it as though their blood is on your hands, and do whatever is necessary to see that souls are healed then restoration can continue. Imagine the souls who were called to the work being restored to serve agan!! There were 14 who left the work in a five year period in Colorado. Add to that the hundreds of other workers who were unable to continue under your leadership over the years. There is such a massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance. No one is against you, Leslie, for your soul is in the balance as well. There are many people praying for God's Will to be accomplished. I believe Jesus Christ is standing at the right hand of God, and all the angels are watching and praying that you would have strength enough to humble yourself, that you also could be restored, and all would not be lost. As for the current situation and what you have been accused of, only you and those involved know the truth of the matter. But all God's children and the Kingdom of Heaven are taking notice if you are choosing to subject yourself to man's laws, or hold yourself accountable to the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven. If we rely on the laws that men have put on the books to keep society civil, then know that those laws can be manipulated such that innocent men are found guilty, and guilty men go free. As hard as men strive for true justice, sometimes justice is not served and penalties are to soft, or too harsh for the individual case. What would it look like to trust in the laws of God? Again, if you were to humble yourself and address each of your accusers, acknowledging any misconduct on your behalf, including even the hint of impropriety, and then throw yourself on their mercies and beg for their forgivness, you might find that with God's strength they could find it in their heart to forgive you. They could then choose to release you from the bonds of man's laws, but know that you would be held accountable to a much higher Court. There are those ready to forgive, but it is impossiable to forgive someone who feels they have done nothing wrong. It would be far better to admit being wrong on this side of eternity, than to wait and find no forgiveness possiable on the other side. A brother in Christ. This is a very kind and brotherly letter you have addressed to Leslie. I agree with you that humility and a plea for forgiveness is the key to this whole problem. This does more for the healing process than anything we can imagine. You have addressed this troubling event the best I have seen yet. I certainly hope it has the desired effect it should.
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Post by ts on Jul 26, 2012 11:28:05 GMT -5
An open letter to Leslie White. Dear Leslie, I do not know where you are staying since leaving the work, but I trust that someone reading this can get this letter to you. I have been giving much thought to the events that have led to this point. As I read the scripture, I like to see how the Spirit leads in situations to heal and forward the Kingdom of heaven. I consider what it would be like to be in your shoes. You are past 75 years old now. As you look back over your many years in the work, you can reflect on the many who have come to know Jesus through your ministry. There are handfuls of lives who have entered into the harvest field under your care. I love the spirit of the apostles we read of in the Gospels. When Jesus was telling his apostles that there was one who would betray him, the response was, "Is it I, Lord?" This is the Godly response in any situation. Then Jesus himself in John 17 tells His Father that "Those that thou gavest me, have I kept, and none are lost except the son of perdition." So Jesus felt personally responsible for those who were under His care. We often think of the work you have been involved in for the past 40+ years to be one of the greatest works on earth, to see the re-creation of God in the lives of men and women as they sit under the sound of the gospel. Now that you are no longer available to be preaching the gospel, there is a work that can be done which may be more beneficial than all the work that has been done so far, that is the work of restoration in the lives you have had charge of over your lifetime. If you consider every worker who hasn't continued that you have had charge of since becoming an overseer many years ago, and every family who has stopped going to meeting, you will find a great work of restoration that can be done. It will require a spirit of humility to give up the right to be right and accept full responsibility for every soul that has been hindered in any way. If you humble yourself and approach every situation with the spirit of "Is it I?" that is the cause in any way that someone has stumbled, then restoration can begin. If you take responsibility for every soul you have had dealings with and treat it as though their blood is on your hands, and do whatever is necessary to see that souls are healed then restoration can continue. Imagine the souls who were called to the work being restored to serve agan!! There were 14 who left the work in a five year period in Colorado. Add to that the hundreds of other workers who were unable to continue under your leadership over the years. There is such a massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance. No one is against you, Leslie, for your soul is in the balance as well. There are many people praying for God's Will to be accomplished. I believe Jesus Christ is standing at the right hand of God, and all the angels are watching and praying that you would have strength enough to humble yourself, that you also could be restored, and all would not be lost. As for the current situation and what you have been accused of, only you and those involved know the truth of the matter. But all God's children and the Kingdom of Heaven are taking notice if you are choosing to subject yourself to man's laws, or hold yourself accountable to the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven. If we rely on the laws that men have put on the books to keep society civil, then know that those laws can be manipulated such that innocent men are found guilty, and guilty men go free. As hard as men strive for true justice, sometimes justice is not served and penalties are to soft, or too harsh for the individual case. What would it look like to trust in the laws of God? Again, if you were to humble yourself and address each of your accusers, acknowledging any misconduct on your behalf, including even the hint of impropriety, and then throw yourself on their mercies and beg for their forgivness, you might find that with God's strength they could find it in their heart to forgive you. They could then choose to release you from the bonds of man's laws, but know that you would be held accountable to a much higher Court. There are those ready to forgive, but it is impossiable to forgive someone who feels they have done nothing wrong. It would be far better to admit being wrong on this side of eternity, than to wait and find no forgiveness possiable on the other side. A brother in Christ. Hey, Oldsoul. Please consider putting this letter on its own thread. And, admin, please consider making this post of the week.
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2012 12:50:35 GMT -5
An open letter to Leslie White. ..... There are those ready to forgive, but it is impossiable to forgive someone who feels they have done nothing wrong. It would be far better to admit being wrong on this side of eternity, than to wait and find no forgiveness possiable on the other side. ..... Is it the belief of the writer that LW is guilty? Or is it a general belief if anyone is accused they should admit being being wrong and seek forgiveness? Should the accuser also seek forgiveness in case they have been mistaken?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 26, 2012 13:47:40 GMT -5
I love the tone of this letter, and admittedly hesitated to even open the thread, fearing that it may be one of insisting that Leslie do one thing or another. I have met Leslie, and must say that I found him very likeable, while also sensing that his skill in relating to people could lead to problems - as it can for any of us!
The one thing in the letter that stands out to me is that I would not consider "restoration" as a matter of being restored to the work or the fellowship, but being restored to something like "vocation" or "calling." And perhaps that is what the author has in mind.
I think there is room for all of us, even when accused of something we are innocent of having done, to humbly recognize and acknowledge that our words and actions may have been less than they could have been - we all can look into situations and find that we too were acting and reacting in fear, anger, pride . . . all of the things with which we are all too familiar!
Our legal system can only seek to apportion blame and guilt, but Jesus' teaching us to look first to our own self - remove the beam from our own eye - when put into practice does begin to change the situation. It doesn't say the guilty person is not guilty, but it opens a door to acknowledgment and addressing the problem, whereas accusation tends to resistance and reinforcing of "walls."
Thank you for a beautiful letter!
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Post by ts on Jul 26, 2012 14:01:26 GMT -5
Thank you for moving Oldsoul's open letter to a new thread. I personally felt that it deserved its own thread and to not get buried in the rest of the stuff on a very old thread.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 26, 2012 17:57:39 GMT -5
Yeah…oldsoul, I kinda like how you show up here. There is genuineness, sincerity and yes, even a naiveté that is very nice. It speaks very highly of the kind of person that you must be.
However.
The restoration endeavor is a nice thought – and possible – but highly unlikely, IMO. Had Leslie White been the kind of individual who was open to “restoration”, then it is unlikely he would have caused the offenses in the first place.
What bothers me about your letter is that there are a lot of highly unconscious individuals on this planet who do a lot of crappy things. At times, you might even perceive that they have done them “to you”.
They haven’t. The truth is, YOU DON’T EVEN REALLY SHOW UP ON THEIR RADAR SCREEN.
There is not a single thing that another person can do that can really affect you. The “massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance” really doesn’t exist. I might buy that Leslie White has lots of lessons that he could learn from what he has done – should he be open to them.
For every crappy thing that I have EVER perceived has been done to me – I am now really grateful for the lessons learned and for the new ways of seeing things and the new ways of being that it has brought into my life. Yes, sometimes the lessons have been hard – but SO worth it. I would not change a single thing.
If I was waiting for someone to acknowledge wrongdoing and to apologize, I would still be waiting and would probably be in bondage for the rest of my life.
MY freedom is not contingent on another’s conduct. EVER.
I am NOT a victim. Neither is anyone else, if they do not choose to be.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 26, 2012 18:03:10 GMT -5
Yeah…oldsoul, I kinda like how you show up here. There is genuineness, sincerity and yes, even a naiveté that is very nice. It speaks very highly of the kind of person that you must be. However. The restoration endeavor is a nice thought – and possible – but highly unlikely, IMO. Had Leslie White been the kind of individual who was open to “restoration”, then it is unlikely he would have caused the offenses in the first place. What bothers me about your letter is that there are a lot of highly unconscious individuals on this planet who do a lot of crappy things. At times, you might even perceive that they have done them “to you”. They haven’t. The truth is, YOU DON’T EVEN REALLY SHOW UP ON THEIR RADAR SCREEN. There is not a single thing that another person can do that can really affect you. The “massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance” really doesn’t exist. I might buy that Leslie White has lots of lessons that he could learn from what he has done – should he be open to them. For every crappy thing that I have EVER perceived has been done to me – I am now really grateful for the lessons learned and for the new ways of seeing things and the new ways of being that it has brought into my life. Yes, sometimes the lessons have been hard – but SO worth it. I would not change a single thing. If I was waiting for someone to acknowledge wrongdoing and to apologize, I would still be waiting and would probably be in bondage for the rest of my life. MY freedom is not contingent on another’s conduct. EVER. I am NOT a victim. Neither is anyone else, if they do not choose to be. It seems to me that the greatest benefit in Leslie accepting this letter and advice would go to Leslie himself. I agree too that there aren't "souls waiting in balance," yet Leslie could help to create or restore communication and trust. We can all so that, no matter where we find ourselves.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 26, 2012 18:04:42 GMT -5
Yeah…oldsoul, I kinda like how you show up here. There is genuineness, sincerity and yes, even a naiveté that is very nice. It speaks very highly of the kind of person that you must be. However. The restoration endeavor is a nice thought – and possible – but highly unlikely, IMO. Had Leslie White been the kind of individual who was open to “restoration”, then it is unlikely he would have caused the offenses in the first place. What bothers me about your letter is that there are a lot of highly unconscious individuals on this planet who do a lot of crappy things. At times, you might even perceive that they have done them “to you”. They haven’t. The truth is, YOU DON’T EVEN REALLY SHOW UP ON THEIR RADAR SCREEN. There is not a single thing that another person can do that can really affect you. The “massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance” really doesn’t exist. I might buy that Leslie White has lots of lessons that he could learn from what he has done – should he be open to them. For every crappy thing that I have EVER perceived has been done to me – I am now really grateful for the lessons learned and for the new ways of seeing things and the new ways of being that it has brought into my life. Yes, sometimes the lessons have been hard – but SO worth it. I would not change a single thing. If I was waiting for someone to acknowledge wrongdoing and to apologize, I would still be waiting and would probably be in bondage for the rest of my life. MY freedom is not contingent on another’s conduct. EVER. I am NOT a victim. Neither is anyone else, if they do not choose to be. Wise words Sharon. I have experienced these words myself and have found by going through some very hard experiences I learned valuable lessons. Especially about me and where I am the one that is just flesh.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2012 19:20:46 GMT -5
Yeah…oldsoul, I kinda like how you show up here. There is genuineness, sincerity and yes, even a naiveté that is very nice. It speaks very highly of the kind of person that you must be. However. The restoration endeavor is a nice thought – and possible – but highly unlikely, IMO. Had Leslie White been the kind of individual who was open to “restoration”, then it is unlikely he would have caused the offenses in the first place. What bothers me about your letter is that there are a lot of highly unconscious individuals on this planet who do a lot of crappy things. At times, you might even perceive that they have done them “to you”. They haven’t. The truth is, YOU DON’T EVEN REALLY SHOW UP ON THEIR RADAR SCREEN. There is not a single thing that another person can do that can really affect you. The “massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance” really doesn’t exist. I might buy that Leslie White has lots of lessons that he could learn from what he has done – should he be open to them. For every crappy thing that I have EVER perceived has been done to me – I am now really grateful for the lessons learned and for the new ways of seeing things and the new ways of being that it has brought into my life. Yes, sometimes the lessons have been hard – but SO worth it. I would not change a single thing. If I was waiting for someone to acknowledge wrongdoing and to apologize, I would still be waiting and would probably be in bondage for the rest of my life. MY freedom is not contingent on another’s conduct. EVER. I am NOT a victim. Neither is anyone else, if they do not choose to be. I like what you have just posted. We are not victims. It is about choice. Life happens. How we respond to it is our decision.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 19:24:36 GMT -5
Having dealt with SW and knowing LW and his family very well I can say I do hope for healing and peace for all involved. That being said there are two very different issues here. LW needs to take responsibility for his actions should he have committed these acts. If he has done this EVERYONE should be encouraging him to make thinks right on this side of eternity. I do not doubt for one minute that God has the power and wisdom to help LW do this.
The issues of victims is that they have to learn to live with and move on from what ever has happened to them no matter what happens to their perpetrator. That takes time and much searching of ones heart. I again have no doubt that God has the power and wisdom to help them to move on and live full lives. It is no one else job to tell them when and how they do this. They need encouragement and understanding not condemnation in their journey to heal.
I love the spirit of this letter. I think if more had the spirit of compassion and kindness these issues could be dealt with and fellowship restored for many. I have no doubt that God is at work in this situation.
I too am thankful for the hard experiences that have given me an understanding of the power and grace of God. I would never want to hinder his work in the lives of others as they come to understand that power and grace in their own lives.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 20:20:40 GMT -5
Yeah…oldsoul, I kinda like how you show up here. There is genuineness, sincerity and yes, even a naiveté that is very nice. It speaks very highly of the kind of person that you must be. However. The restoration endeavor is a nice thought – and possible – but highly unlikely, IMO. Had Leslie White been the kind of individual who was open to “restoration”, then it is unlikely he would have caused the offenses in the first place. What bothers me about your letter is that there are a lot of highly unconscious individuals on this planet who do a lot of crappy things. At times, you might even perceive that they have done them “to you”. They haven’t. The truth is, YOU DON’T EVEN REALLY SHOW UP ON THEIR RADAR SCREEN. There is not a single thing that another person can do that can really affect you. The “massive wealth of souls hanging in the balance” really doesn’t exist. I might buy that Leslie White has lots of lessons that he could learn from what he has done – should he be open to them. For every crappy thing that I have EVER perceived has been done to me – I am now really grateful for the lessons learned and for the new ways of seeing things and the new ways of being that it has brought into my life. Yes, sometimes the lessons have been hard – but SO worth it. I would not change a single thing. If I was waiting for someone to acknowledge wrongdoing and to apologize, I would still be waiting and would probably be in bondage for the rest of my life. MY freedom is not contingent on another’s conduct. EVER. I am NOT a victim. Neither is anyone else, if they do not choose to be. This reminds of the one of the Four Agreements of Toltec Wisdom: "Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
We take things personally when we agree with what others have said. If we didn't agree, the things that others say would not affect us emotionally. If we did not care about what others think about us, their words or behavior could not affect us.
Even if someone yells at you, gossips about you, harms you or yours, it still is not about you! Their actions and words are based on what they believe in their personal dream.
Our personal “Book of Law” and belief system makes us feel safe. When people have beliefs that are different from our own, we get scared, defend ourselves, and impose our point of view on others. If someone gets angry with us it is because our belief system is challenging their belief system and they get scared. They need to defend their point of view. Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"
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Post by emy on Jul 26, 2012 20:25:03 GMT -5
This reminds of the one of the Four Agreements of Toltec Wisdom: "Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
We take things personally when we agree with what others have said. If we didn't agree, the things that others say would not affect us emotionally. If we did not care about what others think about us, their words or behavior could not affect us.
Even if someone yells at you, gossips about you, harms you or yours, it still is not about you! Their actions and words are based on what they believe in their personal dream.
Our personal “Book of Law” and belief system makes us feel safe. When people have beliefs that are different from our own, we get scared, defend ourselves, and impose our point of view on others. If someone gets angry with us it is because our belief system is challenging their belief system and they get scared. They need to defend their point of view. Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this?
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2012 20:43:18 GMT -5
This reminds of the one of the Four Agreements of Toltec Wisdom: "Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
We take things personally when we agree with what others have said. If we didn't agree, the things that others say would not affect us emotionally. If we did not care about what others think about us, their words or behavior could not affect us.
Even if someone yells at you, gossips about you, harms you or yours, it still is not about you! Their actions and words are based on what they believe in their personal dream.
Our personal “Book of Law” and belief system makes us feel safe. When people have beliefs that are different from our own, we get scared, defend ourselves, and impose our point of view on others. If someone gets angry with us it is because our belief system is challenging their belief system and they get scared. They need to defend their point of view. Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? I believe this very much and I do try to live that way. It is hard because I have been programmed to be hurt by others. It's hard because we have egos that we want to protect. It's hard because we're scared. But if you have no personal attachment to what others think you are truly free. Suffering comes from attachment to what others think of us. Trying to argue to get someone to see things you're way usually is a waste of energy. Being the change you want to see usually works better. So yes I believe in what CD posted and I do try to live it. I am not good at it, but I do believe it's true.
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Post by Mary on Jul 26, 2012 20:46:24 GMT -5
This reminds of the one of the Four Agreements of Toltec Wisdom: "Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
We take things personally when we agree with what others have said. If we didn't agree, the things that others say would not affect us emotionally. If we did not care about what others think about us, their words or behavior could not affect us.
Even if someone yells at you, gossips about you, harms you or yours, it still is not about you! Their actions and words are based on what they believe in their personal dream.
Our personal “Book of Law” and belief system makes us feel safe. When people have beliefs that are different from our own, we get scared, defend ourselves, and impose our point of view on others. If someone gets angry with us it is because our belief system is challenging their belief system and they get scared. They need to defend their point of view. Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? We are humans not robots. Suffering comes from attachment, period. If we are unable to attach to others then maybe we will not care about anything and any one let alone what others think of us.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2012 20:53:53 GMT -5
Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? We are humans not robots. Suffering comes from attachment, period. If we are unable to attach to others then maybe we will not care about anything and any one let alone what others think of us. I don't see it that way. I see a difference between detachment and attachment. I can remain unattached to my version of something enough to allow someone else to have theirs for example. It doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, it just allows me to accept another's opinion. It's not a way of not caring, but goes deeper. We cannot change another person and trying to do so will cause suffering. Instead if we can accept how they are without taking it on at a personal level, we save ourselves a lot of grief. Why should we care what others think of us as long as we are doing our very best to be loving, caring and respectful?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 20:59:59 GMT -5
The thing is, once you realize that what people do to you is only a reflection of themselves, how can you get hurt about it?
When a two year old child mouths something not nice to us, we have no problem understanding that it's all about them in their own little world and can almost always see some humour in it. However, when an adult mouths something equally inane to us, we get hurt. Why the difference? Because we take their junk baggage on board our ship. Now why would we do that? Are we crazy?
It's not about you, it's about them! And if it is not inane and rightfully about you about how you can benefit, thank them for it!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 21:05:56 GMT -5
This reminds of the one of the Four Agreements of Toltec Wisdom: "Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
We take things personally when we agree with what others have said. If we didn't agree, the things that others say would not affect us emotionally. If we did not care about what others think about us, their words or behavior could not affect us.
Even if someone yells at you, gossips about you, harms you or yours, it still is not about you! Their actions and words are based on what they believe in their personal dream.
Our personal “Book of Law” and belief system makes us feel safe. When people have beliefs that are different from our own, we get scared, defend ourselves, and impose our point of view on others. If someone gets angry with us it is because our belief system is challenging their belief system and they get scared. They need to defend their point of view. Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? If someone asked me if emy practiced this, I would say yes. Why? I don't see you taking on other people's garbage and making it your own. (That's a compliment by the way!)
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Post by sharonw on Jul 26, 2012 21:22:50 GMT -5
Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? We are humans not robots. Suffering comes from attachment, period. If we are unable to attach to others then maybe we will not care about anything and any one let alone what others think of us. Yes! It seems to me that to not be attached to what others say or think or do about us defies the Lord's own way of showing us what real charity is...... We heard a very good sermon tonight in a revival about three things that must be in perpetual motion in going out and coming in....and that was God gives Grace and mercy and peace to those who believe in HIm...thus when we give grace and mercy to our neighbors then there is peace between us and it all goes in a full circle where again Jesus receives of our grace and mercy and peace.... Kinda like an old saying "What comes around will go around"?
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Post by ts on Jul 26, 2012 21:44:13 GMT -5
This reminds of the one of the Four Agreements of Toltec Wisdom: "Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
We take things personally when we agree with what others have said. If we didn't agree, the things that others say would not affect us emotionally. If we did not care about what others think about us, their words or behavior could not affect us.
Even if someone yells at you, gossips about you, harms you or yours, it still is not about you! Their actions and words are based on what they believe in their personal dream.
Our personal “Book of Law” and belief system makes us feel safe. When people have beliefs that are different from our own, we get scared, defend ourselves, and impose our point of view on others. If someone gets angry with us it is because our belief system is challenging their belief system and they get scared. They need to defend their point of view. Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? I used to. After I left the work I got involved with alternative therapy. The thought in these Toltec rules falls under the category of "New Age". Just a further effort of satan to water down the gospel and diminish the importance and power of the blood of Jesus.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2012 22:14:25 GMT -5
Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? I used to. After I left the work I got involved with alternative therapy. The thought in these Toltec rules falls under the category of "New Age". Just a further effort of satan to water down the gospel and diminish the importance and power of the blood of Jesus. It's not just Toltec, it's also a key thought in Buddhism. Satan has nothing to do with it. Understanding it is the key. I'm not a great advocate of New Age, but at least they are trying to make love and harmony key. Something that is lacking in most belief systems imo.
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Post by Mary on Jul 26, 2012 23:09:04 GMT -5
"Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"
We do it because it brings change. Nothing gets done if we just sit back and not get moved by anything. It takes anger, passion and energy to bring change.
Type A personalities get frustrated with type Bs and vice versa. We need both.
The passage suggests if we speak out against sexual abuse it is because we have the same problem. An idealistic perception but unfortunately not true.
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Post by emy on Jul 26, 2012 23:49:59 GMT -5
Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? If someone asked me if emy practiced this, I would say yes. Why? I don't see you taking on other people's garbage and making it your own. (That's a compliment by the way!) Why, thank you! (i wasn't fishing for a compliment.) I read it as something I could improve upon in my life. I do think there are people here who live this also.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 6:48:52 GMT -5
Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? I used to. After I left the work I got involved with alternative therapy. The thought in these Toltec rules falls under the category of "New Age". Just a further effort of satan to water down the gospel and diminish the importance and power of the blood of Jesus. What is satanic in this or any Toltec Agreement?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 6:53:57 GMT -5
God's power vs Man's wisdom???
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 7:04:34 GMT -5
God's power vs Man's wisdom??? What does that mean exactly? Where does God's power end and man's wisdom begin?
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 9:06:30 GMT -5
Yes! It seems to me that to not be attached to what others say or think or do about us defies the Lord's own way of showing us what real charity is...... It is also classified as a disorder. Some of Alexander's children suffered from reactive attachment disorder.
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 9:23:34 GMT -5
I am NOT a victim. Neither is anyone else, if they do not choose to be. It would seem that you need to provide us with your definition of 'victim'. Not many people who are mugged on the street choose to be victims.
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