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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2012 10:10:24 GMT -5
" Why become angry, create conflict, and expend energy arguing when you are aware of this?"We do it because it brings change. Nothing gets done if we just sit back and not get moved by anything. It takes anger, passion and energy to bring change. Type A personalities get frustrated with type Bs and vice versa. We need both. The passage suggests if we speak out against sexual abuse it is because we have the same problem. An idealistic perception but unfortunately not true. I think this is the biggest misperception of what it means to be unattached to the outcome. It doesn't mean you do not work towards change. However, it does mean that you remain open to what shows up. Sometimes what we work towards is a limited outcome of what could actually show up. We may miss that if we were too attached to our version of change.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 10:20:22 GMT -5
Where does man's wisdom end and God's power begin. Isaiah 55 vs 6-13. Our thoughts are not Gods thoughts. Our human wisdom is not Godly unless the spirit is giving us Godly wisdom. We need not tear down the insight God has given to others. We need to respect the spirit of humility and meekness. God does have the power to restore those that fail. He does it in his time and in his way.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 27, 2012 10:53:44 GMT -5
It will require a spirit of humility Great post, oldsoul. Thanks for taking the time to compose it. I agree, a spirit of humility is REQUIRED- it is when any of us become "lords" or the "law" over each other that problems and offenses arise. I would like to see a race among the friends and workers (and all Christians) to see who can be the best servant to another. For some reason, many workers feel the need to be lords, or policeman, or the authority, or whatever rather than simply being as little children. And as a result, many offenses have arisen. Some of them have the diplomatic skills of a grizzly bear and prefer to growl loudly and intimidate to get their sometimes erroneous ideas/mandates across. All bullies should be tossed from the work as they are causing great harm to the fellowship.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 27, 2012 12:35:13 GMT -5
I am NOT a victim. Neither is anyone else, if they do not choose to be. It would seem that you need to provide us with your definition of 'victim'. Not many people who are mugged on the street choose to be victims. Oh sure. Why not? Scenario: A couple is walking down Stephen Avenue Mall in downtown Calgary. They are accosted by a young man who snatches the lady’s purse and runs away down a side street. Person A: "We had just finished having dinner at The Catch and my husband and I were walking back to our car when this young hoodlum jumped in front of us. He was covered in tattoos and had several piercings. His eyes were scary – really scary. Maybe he was on something. When I close my eyes to go to sleep at night, even now, I still see those eyes looking at me. He grabbed my purse out of my hand, almost making me fall. It was Gucci, you know, the one I got for such a bargain last time I was in New York – the one that matches my darling little red shoes. It was my favorite purse and I will never find another one like that. We called the police and we were told to go to the nearest police station to make a full report. We had to wait for the longest time to make a statement. It was so inconsiderate for so many other people to be having problems at the same time. When the constable was finally free, he was rude and insensitive, making a joke over the horrible ordeal I had just been through. I will never feel safe in downtown Calgary again. The Catch used to be my favorite restaurant, I don’t think I could ever bear to go there again. I suppose I will need to get around to cancelling my credit cards one of these days. Such an inconvenience." Person B: "My husband and I were walking down Stephen Avenue when a young male jumped in front of us. He grabbed my purse and ran away. Fortunately I was holding my cell phone in my hand. We called the police and proceeded to the nearest police statement to give a full report. As we were waiting to speak to a constable, I called and cancelled all my credit cards." Person C: "My husband and I were walking down Stephen Avenue when a young male jumped in front of us. He grabbed my purse and ran away. That’s okay, I don’t carry credit cards and he probably needed the money more than I did." Questions: 1) Who is the victim(s)? 2) Who is the insane person(s)? 3) Who is the spiritual master(s)? Commentary: Both Person A and Person B would be entered into the police statistics as crime victims. The insane person – that’s easy. Oh, wait a minute, question 3 kind of puts a different spin on things. Hmmm. Could it be that behavior that we consider normal is actually insane? That was the long answer. The short answer is that our claim to victimhood is not so much what happens to us – it is more how we choose to process it. As snow says, “ It is about choice. Life happens. How we respond to it is our decision.”
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 13:27:48 GMT -5
Scenario: A couple is walking down Stephen Avenue Mall in downtown Calgary. They are accosted by a young man who snatches the lady’s purse and runs away down a side street. Person A: "We had just finished having dinner at The Catch and my husband and I were walking back to our car when this young hoodlum jumped in front of us. He was covered in tattoos and had several piercings. His eyes were scary – really scary. Maybe he was on something. When I close my eyes to go to sleep at night, even now, I still see those eyes looking at me. He grabbed my purse out of my hand, almost making me fall. It was Gucci, you know, the one I got for such a bargain last time I was in New York – the one that matches my darling little red shoes. It was my favorite purse and I will never find another one like that. We called the police and we were told to go to the nearest police station to make a full report. We had to wait for the longest time to make a statement. It was so inconsiderate for so many other people to be having problems at the same time. When the constable was finally free, he was rude and insensitive, making a joke over the horrible ordeal I had just been through. I will never feel safe in downtown Calgary again. The Catch used to be my favorite restaurant, I don’t think I could ever bear to go there again. I suppose I will need to get around to cancelling my credit cards one of these days. Such an inconvenience." Person B: "My husband and I were walking down Stephen Avenue when a young male jumped in front of us. He grabbed my purse and ran away. Fortunately I was holding my cell phone in my hand. We called the police and proceeded to the nearest police statement to give a full report. As we were waiting to speak to a constable, I called and cancelled all my credit cards." Person C: "My husband and I were walking down Stephen Avenue when a young male jumped in front of us. He grabbed my purse and ran away. That’s okay, I don’t carry credit cards and he probably needed the money more than I did." Questions: 1) Who is the victim(s)? 2) Who is the insane person(s)? 3) Who is the spiritual master(s)? All 3 are victims in the usual sense of the word. victim - One who is harmed or killed by another: a victim of a mugging. There is no great way to judge who is and who is not insane from this. I have no idea of what the qualifications of a spiritual master are. They would all have been logged as victims. Insanity is not easy. The three women were not in the same circumstances. Two seemed to have lost credit cards and the third didn't. You would expect different reactions. No it doesn't. What some people might call spiritual others might call rationalization. Frequently. That is why I was asking for your definition of 'victim'. All three, and their husbands, were victims of a crime regardless how they react. It sounds like you are talking about people that, in clinical settings, are known as 'professional victims'. You will hear claims victimization any time things don't go their way. And if they are truly victims, they will play the professional victim card for as long as people respond.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 27, 2012 16:42:38 GMT -5
It will require a spirit of humility Great post, oldsoul. Thanks for taking the time to compose it. I agree, a spirit of humility is REQUIRED- it is when any of us become "lords" or the "law" over each other that problems and offenses arise. I would like to see a race among the friends and workers (and all Christians) to see who can be the best servant to another. For some reason, many workers feel the need to be lords, or policeman, or the authority, or whatever rather than simply being as little children. And as a result, many offenses have arisen. Some of them have the diplomatic skills of a grizzly bear and prefer to growl loudly and intimidate to get their sometimes erroneous ideas/mandates across. All bullies should be tossed from the work as they are causing great harm to the fellowship. The report that there were 14 workers who left the work due to their overseer's ruling/rules....made me wonder did any or all of these 14 tell anyone who would have been in a position to really stop said behaviour? Or did they just commiserate between themselves? I guess what I'm trying to say that if the overseer's overseers were told of the problems that caused 14 young workers to leave the work and THEY didn't do anything, does that not tell those 14 people that the whole religion is off course and they are better for getting out of it? Just wondering.
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Post by oldsoul on Jul 27, 2012 17:14:42 GMT -5
An open letter to Leslie White. ..... There are those ready to forgive, but it is impossiable to forgive someone who feels they have done nothing wrong. It would be far better to admit being wrong on this side of eternity, than to wait and find no forgiveness possiable on the other side. ..... Is it the belief of the writer that LW is guilty? Or is it a general belief if anyone is accused they should admit being being wrong and seek forgiveness? Should the accuser also seek forgiveness in case they have been mistaken? Ratoinal, I do not have a belief one way our another concerning LW's innocence or guilt. However, based on what is known, LW isn't being entirely honest. Consider that when the Sister Worker took this to the authorities, and the professionals heard what she had to say, if there was nothing to it, they would have told her that it was all in her mind, and it all would have ended there. If there is nothing to the allegation, there would not be other ladies coming forward with the same situation. And if there's no hint of impropriety, the older brothers would not be asking LW to step aside. I am in no way suggesting that if one is accused of something, they should immediately start asking forgiveness, but rather approach the situation as the apostles did, and first ask, Is it I? Is there anything I have done that could have caused the person to stumble? Thats far different than the human response of deny, deny, deny. If the SW was mistaken and LW thought it was consensual sex, but she thought it was rape, then, possiably the SW would apologize for the misunderstanding. However, either way you slice it, it might be kind of hard for LW to preach about fornication in the future. oldsoul
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 18:42:24 GMT -5
I do not have a belief one way our another concerning LW's innocence or guilt. However, based on what is known, LW isn't being entirely honest. Would you consider not being honest being innocent? If I am not mistaken, the investigators and looking at the material to see if there is enough to bring charges. One allegation being unsubstantiated does not mean that the others are not accurate. This is a pretty standard route to take. Police, teachers, clergy, etc. are also asked to step aside when allegations are made, pending the legal outcome. Seems like a redundent question since they know the answer. Depends on the human. I would think so. If he were innocent why would it be difficult? I can almost feel a sermon coming regarding the damage that even the appearance of evil might cause.
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Post by oldsoul on Jul 27, 2012 19:17:16 GMT -5
Great post, oldsoul. Thanks for taking the time to compose it. I agree, a spirit of humility is REQUIRED- it is when any of us become "lords" or the "law" over each other that problems and offenses arise. I would like to see a race among the friends and workers (and all Christians) to see who can be the best servant to another. For some reason, many workers feel the need to be lords, or policeman, or the authority, or whatever rather than simply being as little children. And as a result, many offenses have arisen. Some of them have the diplomatic skills of a grizzly bear and prefer to growl loudly and intimidate to get their sometimes erroneous ideas/mandates across. All bullies should be tossed from the work as they are causing great harm to the fellowship. The report that there were 14 workers who left the work due to their overseer's ruling/rules....made me wonder did any or all of these 14 tell anyone who would have been in a position to really stop said behaviour? Or did they just commiserate between themselves? I guess what I'm trying to say that if the overseer's overseers were told of the problems that caused 14 young workers to leave the work and THEY didn't do anything, does that not tell those 14 people that the whole religion is off course and they are better for getting out of it? Just wondering. sharonw, In one case that I know of, 2 overseers flew in to try and rescue a brother who had about 15 years in the work. This was done behind the back of LW, and unfortunately, they were unable to rescue the brother worker. So, yes, I believe other overseers saw that Leslie was out of control for a long time, they just didn't know what to do about it. As far as the mass exit from the work, we believed that to be in the work was the only right ministry, therefore, there were no other options of other ministries to serve in. Also, we had made vows to God, surrendering our life to the ministry. Looking back, we are all better off not serving under such conditions. None of the workers went into the work with the attitude of being a victim. Much the same, no one goes out and plans to get mugged, or plans to get raped or molested. As a young worker, the lesson of being in submission is lived out in your life. As you get responsibility, if anything, you should be more submitted to the will of God. And by the time you become an overseer, you should be the living example of what submission to the will of God is. When anyone looses their submission to God, and uses their position and influence for human gain, then those they have charge of suffers a molestation of the soul. For those who feel there are no souls hanging in the balance, how do you help the ones who laid their life down for Christ, but ended up having their soul molested by LW? oldsoul
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Post by Gene on Jul 27, 2012 19:37:23 GMT -5
Do you, or anyone else here, believe and practice this? I used to. After I left the work I got involved with alternative therapy. The thought in these Toltec rules falls under the category of "New Age". Just a further effort of satan to water down the gospel and diminish the importance and power of the blood of Jesus. Hmmmm... Let's see: When your interactions with others aren't going so well; when you feel that, perhaps, your actions and intentions are misunderstood and the unpleasant actions of others toward you are unwarranted, Option A: Try to understand, in your interactions with others, that their behaviour is an outcome of many factors, and may reflect more on their own situation than yours. Option B: Drink blood. (Figuratively, of course. Call it a 'sacrament.' That will make an otherwise gaggingly abhorrent concept palatable - even noble!)
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Post by oldsoul on Jul 27, 2012 21:14:26 GMT -5
I do not have a belief one way our another concerning LW's innocence or guilt. However, based on what is known, LW isn't being entirely honest. Would you consider not being honest being innocent? If I am not mistaken, the investigators and looking at the material to see if there is enough to bring charges. One allegation being unsubstantiated does not mean that the others are not accurate. This is a pretty standard route to take. Police, teachers, clergy, etc. are also asked to step aside when allegations are made, pending the legal outcome. Seems like a redundent question since they know the answer. Depends on the human. I would think so. If he were innocent why would it be difficult? I can almost feel a sermon coming regarding the damage that even the appearance of evil might cause. rational, To compare innocence and guilt with honesty is comparing apples to oranges. Innocence and guilt are opinions. It is simply the perspective one has about something that happened. There is a book that was turned into a movie called "Midnight In The Garden Of Good And Evil.", that demonstrates that the truth is whatever you want it to be, as long as you can convince others that it's the truth. You can spin any story you want and make someone appear innocent or guilty. Honesty on the other hand, deals with simple facts, and if we are in alignment with the facts or not. I could tell you that I own the sears tower. If I then show you the deed, you would see that my statement was true. But if you found that someone else owned it, then you would say that I was lying. It is not a matter of opinion, but simply accepting reality as it is. Do you believe that anything occurred? By the amount of people coming forward and the actions of older brothers, and the prosecutor feeling the case had merit enough to go forward with an investigation, causes me to believe that something happened. We do not know what happened exactly, or to what extent, but I believe it is clear that something took place. What do you believe? If something happened and it is being denied, it would stand to reason that LW is being less than honest. As far as fornication, adultery and rape. If you were to deny raping someone, but claim it was consensual sex instead (fornication), then how could you justify teaching that the scripture says fornication is inappropriate and yet you are doing it? Isn't that living a lie? It is interesting how you break everything down line by line and question everything. It would be interesting to know your thought on the big picture, and what causes you to reach that conclusion. oldsoul
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Post by ts on Jul 27, 2012 22:06:45 GMT -5
I used to. After I left the work I got involved with alternative therapy. The thought in these Toltec rules falls under the category of "New Age". Just a further effort of satan to water down the gospel and diminish the importance and power of the blood of Jesus. It's not just Toltec, it's also a key thought in Buddhism. Satan has nothing to do with it. Understanding it is the key. I'm not a great advocate of New Age, but at least they are trying to make love and harmony key. Something that is lacking in most belief systems imo. Yes, I am also aware that it is Eastern thought. New Age is anything but new.
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Post by ts on Jul 27, 2012 22:12:26 GMT -5
I used to. After I left the work I got involved with alternative therapy. The thought in these Toltec rules falls under the category of "New Age". Just a further effort of satan to water down the gospel and diminish the importance and power of the blood of Jesus. What is satanic in this or any Toltec Agreement? Ultimately this "agreement" does not confess Jesus. We all know that Satan will come as an angel of light but I will speculate that most of us who believe he exists think that we will recognize him when he comes to pervert truth. For those who do not believe satan exists, they will not at all recognize his methods and will be deceived by vain words. "Through lack of knowledge the people perish."
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Post by ts on Jul 27, 2012 22:52:15 GMT -5
I used to. After I left the work I got involved with alternative therapy. The thought in these Toltec rules falls under the category of "New Age". Just a further effort of satan to water down the gospel and diminish the importance and power of the blood of Jesus. Hmmmm... Let's see: When your interactions with others aren't going so well; when you feel that, perhaps, your actions and intentions are misunderstood and the unpleasant actions of others toward you are unwarranted, Option A: Try to understand, in your interactions with others, that their behaviour is an outcome of many factors, and may reflect more on their own situation than yours. Option B: Drink blood. (Figuratively, of course. Call it a 'sacrament.' That will make an otherwise gaggingly abhorrent concept palatable - even noble!) God forbid the drinking of blood even in animals. That is because the life is in the blood. Drinking animal blood is abhorrent and drinking human blood is even more so. I am sure that it sounded just as abhorrent to those people who turned away from Jesus when he presented that as a necessity for entering the kingdom of Heaven. It is only the life of Jesus that will save us and heal us.
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 22:56:37 GMT -5
rational, To compare innocence and guilt with honesty is comparing apples to oranges. Mr. "A", you have been charged with molesting "B". did you molest "B"? "No, I did not", Mr. "A" responds honestly. Mr "A" is innocent of that charge. Mr. "A", you have been charged with molesting "C". did you molest "C"? "No, I did not", Mr. "C" responds dishonestly. Mr. "A" is guilty of that charge. I see a 1:1 correlation. No they are not. "Mr. "A", did you shoot Mrs. "D" in the head?" "Yes I did", Mr. "A" answered honestly. He is guilty of shooting Mrs "B". It is not an opinion. It is a fact. While John Berendt did relate the story it was not a matter of the guilt and innocence changing, they remained constant, but rather making people believe that the events happened in a way that supports your theory/client. But that does not alter the facts of whether they are actually innocent or guilty. First I would question the fact that you claimed you owned Sears tower, even with the deed. You might have sold me on the Willis Tower! Honesty deals with the same facts as guilt and innocence. This far down I think you are not talking about actual guilt and innocence but the outcome of a legal procedure. That describes life in general. I do not know. I see accusations and denials. Using those facts I can understand why. Guilt/innocence is not determined by anecdotal stories being presented bu the victim nor the accused. The truth is not determined by vote. So despite your earlier claim, you have assigned some degree of guilt? As I said, I only know what has happened by the material that has been posted. Given that, to date, it consists of unverified stories I cannot judge either to be guilty. To date the state is doing an investigation. That is exactly how they determine if the case has merit - they evaluate the evidence, ask people involved, check facts. etc. An investigation does not indicate guilt. If nothing happened and it is being denied, it would stand to reason that LW is being honest. I think you have jumped ahead. I believe the statement from LW said that the allegations were false. The rest was generated by posters speculating. I break the posts down because I don't want to be accused of misquoting anyone. I try to break the post down into paragraphs or complete thoughts. This is sometimes difficult. A big picture is made up of the little pixels. If you can examine them and get them correct the big picture will be correct. Many people don't like to look at the details but would rather just state and respond to sweeping statements. You know: "Believing ingod is the only way to heaven - the bible says so." Sounds good. I am almost ready to sigh up - until you start to look at the detail. The devil is in the detail or God is in the detail.
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 23:06:31 GMT -5
God forbid the drinking of blood even in animals. That is because the life is in the blood. Drinking animal blood is abhorrent and drinking human blood is even more so. Yet Jesus said to drink his. Besides, weren't the dietary laws removed? Oxycyte and oxygent are coming into use as blood substitutes. The odd thing is that red blood cells are not alive. Helps put the bible's view of science in perspective.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2012 23:13:19 GMT -5
It's not just Toltec, it's also a key thought in Buddhism. Satan has nothing to do with it. Understanding it is the key. I'm not a great advocate of New Age, but at least they are trying to make love and harmony key. Something that is lacking in most belief systems imo. Yes, I am also aware that it is Eastern thought. New Age is anything but new. Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is some truth to it? Love and harmony is not a new concept. Many masters taught it before Jesus.
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 23:16:52 GMT -5
Yes, I am also aware that it is Eastern thought. New Age is anything but new. Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is some truth to it? Love and harmony is not a new concept. Many masters taught it before Jesus. Did you ever wonder why very few of these, if any, could be shown to be any more effective than a placebo or random results?
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Post by ts on Jul 27, 2012 23:29:47 GMT -5
Yes, I am also aware that it is Eastern thought. New Age is anything but new. Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is some truth to it? Love and harmony is not a new concept. Many masters taught it before Jesus. love and harmony without Jesus is neither. That is because Jesus is the King of all the earth. No other person was perfect and no one else could die for all of man's sins. His name is above every name.
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2012 23:48:01 GMT -5
love and harmony without Jesus is neither. This is BS. There have been civilizations all over the world, before and after Jesus, and before they were introduced to christianity that display love and harmony that is far superior to that displayed by much of christianity. Adding Jesus into the mix is not a guarantee of love and harmony. Are you stating this as a fact or is it your belief?
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Post by quizzer on Jul 28, 2012 3:21:59 GMT -5
For those who feel there are no souls hanging in the balance, how do you help the ones who laid their life down for Christ, but ended up having their soul molested by LW? oldsoul, thank you for your contributions to TMB. I agree that the friends are encouraged to place their trust in the workers. When the workers betray this trust, and then act like the trust shouldn't have existed - yes, there is pain. It's not fair, and it's far from Christ-like. However, as for souls hanging in the balance, some will be deciding whether they continue to trust the workers. This will decide whether they continue with the meetings - my thoughts are that most 2x2s don't see the point in the meetings without high regard to the workers. For those who will be losing respect in the workers, I pray that they will find that they can trust God in this process. This has been the experience of a great deal of exe-2x2s, and allowing God to lead has given them the strength to make the decisions needed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2012 6:50:35 GMT -5
I think that to a great extent, the alleged abuse by LW against a range of workers is actually what I would call an "inadvertent choice" of the victims. That is, it was the choice to give their lives to an organization called "the ministry" which exposed them to such abuse. Obviously they didn't choose the abuse (or even suspected it could happen) but by entrusting their lives and their futures to a worker hierarchy of which LW was a part, they became vulnerable to abuse.
On the other hand, if potential workers follow their inner calling, join the worker ministry organization and do not give their souls to the ministry organization but to their calling, they will be much better able to deal with abuse when it comes their way. Rather than suffer abuse in secrecy and silence, they will attempt to resolve it and if that fails, they will get out with minimal regret.
No one should suffer abuse silently and alone until their health forces them to move to "resting" then out on their own to recover.
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Post by holdmyhand on Jul 28, 2012 8:55:21 GMT -5
On the other hand, if potential workers follow their inner calling, join the worker ministry organization and do not give their souls to the ministry organization but to their calling, they will be much better able to deal with abuse when it comes their way. Rather than suffer abuse in secrecy and silence, they will attempt to resolve it and if that fails, they will get out with minimal regret. No one should suffer abuse silently and alone until their health forces them to move to "resting" then out on their own to recover. Is it possible in reality for them to follow their calling? I don't see the ministry tolerating anything but submission to the hierarchy
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 28, 2012 9:12:31 GMT -5
On the other hand, if potential workers follow their inner calling, join the worker ministry organization and do not give their souls to the ministry organization but to their calling, they will be much better able to deal with abuse when it comes their way. Rather than suffer abuse in secrecy and silence, they will attempt to resolve it and if that fails, they will get out with minimal regret. No one should suffer abuse silently and alone until their health forces them to move to "resting" then out on their own to recover. Is it possible in reality for them to follow their calling? I don't see the ministry tolerating anything but submission to the hierarchy I agree. The real important stuff is ignored despite clear instruction as to conduct. Anyone questioning the hierachy is thrown under the bus. Those requiring submission do not themselves submit to God. kinda ironic I think ken
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Post by sharonw on Jul 28, 2012 10:43:06 GMT -5
The report that there were 14 workers who left the work due to their overseer's ruling/rules....made me wonder did any or all of these 14 tell anyone who would have been in a position to really stop said behaviour? Or did they just commiserate between themselves? I guess what I'm trying to say that if the overseer's overseers were told of the problems that caused 14 young workers to leave the work and THEY didn't do anything, does that not tell those 14 people that the whole religion is off course and they are better for getting out of it? Just wondering. sharonw, In one case that I know of, 2 overseers flew in to try and rescue a brother who had about 15 years in the work. This was done behind the back of LW, and unfortunately, they were unable to rescue the brother worker. So, yes, I believe other overseers saw that Leslie was out of control for a long time, they just didn't know what to do about it. As far as the mass exit from the work, we believed that to be in the work was the only right ministry, therefore, there were no other options of other ministries to serve in. Also, we had made vows to God, surrendering our life to the ministry. Looking back, we are all better off not serving under such conditions. None of the workers went into the work with the attitude of being a victim. Much the same, no one goes out and plans to get mugged, or plans to get raped or molested. As a young worker, the lesson of being in submission is lived out in your life. As you get responsibility, if anything, you should be more submitted to the will of God. And by the time you become an overseer, you should be the living example of what submission to the will of God is. When anyone looses their submission to God, and uses their position and influence for human gain, then those they have charge of suffers a molestation of the soul. For those who feel there are no souls hanging in the balance, how do you help the ones who laid their life down for Christ, but ended up having their soul molested by LW? oldsoul Thanks for the information....and again all I can say is that when the overseer's overseer(s) failed to do anything whether it was they could not do anything or they just chose to not do anything, that that should be a message plain and clear that their system is broken and there is no one willing or able to fix it and thus it is better for the "young" workers to get out of the workership and probably out of the system. as long as those overseer's overseers have ruling power, the system will not change and the problem that follows is they are grooming their replacements as we now speak....so these replacement overseers will not be any more help in fixing what is broke. I speak this from my own experience, Old Soul, that I wanted to be the change I saw was needed and it didn't work I met a brick wall in that the workers who could have changed things do not want to change their "convictions". I even tried to open things up scripturally to them in regards to my "convictions" but I was met with kind but a firm "I understand you have your convictions, but you can not change mine nor will I try to change yours." So what was I to do, Old Soul? It order to keep peace between me and those I spoke to, it was necessary for me to get out of the system before they had to either shun me out or out and out ask me to leave.....I loved those overseers enough to see that it IS their church and they will run it to suit themselves and the sad part is the perpetuaty of the misinterpretations that was almost from the beginning.....instead of time and experience changing those things, they have taken ahold of the system and they can not nor likely to be ever changed or dropped. So peace of my mind and soul, and allowing their right to do as they felt to do, I feel removing one's self from that you cannot agree with...that is peace. And actually people's rights come into play as well.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 28, 2012 10:45:54 GMT -5
Would you consider not being honest being innocent? If I am not mistaken, the investigators and looking at the material to see if there is enough to bring charges. One allegation being unsubstantiated does not mean that the others are not accurate. This is a pretty standard route to take. Police, teachers, clergy, etc. are also asked to step aside when allegations are made, pending the legal outcome. Seems like a redundent question since they know the answer. Depends on the human. I would think so. If he were innocent why would it be difficult? I can almost feel a sermon coming regarding the damage that even the appearance of evil might cause. rational, To compare innocence and guilt with honesty is comparing apples to oranges. Innocence and guilt are opinions. It is simply the perspective one has about something that happened. There is a book that was turned into a movie called "Midnight In The Garden Of Good And Evil.", that demonstrates that the truth is whatever you want it to be, as long as you can convince others that it's the truth. You can spin any story you want and make someone appear innocent or guilty. Honesty on the other hand, deals with simple facts, and if we are in alignment with the facts or not. I could tell you that I own the sears tower. If I then show you the deed, you would see that my statement was true. But if you found that someone else owned it, then you would say that I was lying. It is not a matter of opinion, but simply accepting reality as it is. Do you believe that anything occurred? By the amount of people coming forward and the actions of older brothers, and the prosecutor feeling the case had merit enough to go forward with an investigation, causes me to believe that something happened. We do not know what happened exactly, or to what extent, but I believe it is clear that something took place. What do you believe? If something happened and it is being denied, it would stand to reason that LW is being less than honest. As far as fornication, adultery and rape. If you were to deny raping someone, but claim it was consensual sex instead (fornication), then how could you justify teaching that the scripture says fornication is inappropriate and yet you are doing it? Isn't that living a lie? It is interesting how you break everything down line by line and question everything. It would be interesting to know your thought on the big picture, and what causes you to reach that conclusion. oldsoul I nominate this for post of the week. Wow! Old Soul, I believe you've chosen your pen name quite well!
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Post by sharonw on Jul 28, 2012 10:49:36 GMT -5
God forbid the drinking of blood even in animals. That is because the life is in the blood. Drinking animal blood is abhorrent and drinking human blood is even more so. Yet Jesus said to drink his. Besides, weren't the dietary laws removed? Oxycyte and oxygent are coming into use as blood substitutes. The odd thing is that red blood cells are not alive. Helps put the bible's view of science in perspective. Awww, so it's really about blood transfusions, eh? So it is no stretch of the mind that Jesus said to drink of His blood either transubstantially or symbolically is in order for the spirit world, that "life" is in that blood however it gets there?
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Post by sharonw on Jul 28, 2012 11:00:42 GMT -5
On the other hand, if potential workers follow their inner calling, join the worker ministry organization and do not give their souls to the ministry organization but to their calling, they will be much better able to deal with abuse when it comes their way. Rather than suffer abuse in secrecy and silence, they will attempt to resolve it and if that fails, they will get out with minimal regret. No one should suffer abuse silently and alone until their health forces them to move to "resting" then out on their own to recover. Is it possible in reality for them to follow their calling? I don't see the ministry tolerating anything but submission to the hierarchy I don't feel they Can follow their calling within the 2x2 ministry for the simple reason that those who are made sick to their souls from abuse are the ones who lose out to make up the replacing hierarchy....that said, there are workers who learn early in their workership how to withstand or even deflect any abuse that might come their way and they are very much into the doctoring the leaders with full obedience and even lapdogging it...and these are the young workers who are "formed" by the present rulers to be come the next rulers. The only way for it to change is that ALLL the workers AND friends wake up to what has happened in the last 2-3 generations of workers, and then start culling out those rulers who are the controversy and moving up the workers who have NOT sucked up to the hierarchy....actually start a new "system" one that is NOT full of the old manners that oppress the Christ followers.
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