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Post by ts on Aug 4, 2012 21:03:51 GMT -5
Were we talking about salvation? I am glad that you believe it. What was your point in asking if Spiritualists talking to the dead had anything to do with following Jesus? It sounded sarcastic to me and I don't understand why the sarcasm if you believe that spirits are real. What would be the accomplishment of raising people from the dead? Or healing a body that is going back to dust? Ask the person who was raised from the dead. The fact is that it does happen and happens by the power of Jesus. Just like healing. I used to believe and preach like you are now. Everyone we read of in scripture that was raised from the dead saw death in their bodies again. I thought it was just proof that Jesus was the Christ...or something like that. But hearing the testimony of my companion in the work changed me. You might as well ask, "What is the advantage of getting a demon cast out of you?" I think that we all have a destiny that we are supposed to accomplish. Jesus didn't raise everyone from the dead or heal everyone. Jesus did only what His Father told him to do. That is how He fulfilled His destiny and that is the only way that we are to fulfill ours. In fulfilling our destiny fully, we will necessarily be walking in the spirit and performing spiritual task like healing the sick and preaching the gospel to the poor, raising the dead and walking on water. Being teleported from one place to another to do God's work is also part of the package, when we are in the right attitude and have our faith intact. God is then able to use us to the fullest. It does not mean that we are not saved if we do not find that place of being completely led by the Holy Spirit. However, it could mean that we and perhaps others miss out on seeing the mighty works of God and miss the uplifting of their faith. It is encouraging to know that God visits us and rewards those who diligently seek Him. Would you rather give alms to a lame man or be in a place to be able to say with power and authority, "rise up and walk"?
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2012 11:26:03 GMT -5
I don't believe I said BH was the source of confirmation. It was his claims that were being verified. Just a bit of humour. Benny Hinn has no credibility as far as I know. Do you know of a faith healer that does have verifiable evidence?
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2012 11:35:50 GMT -5
Ask the person who was raised from the dead. I sure people would have done just that. Wouldn't you think the many people raised from the dead at the time of the crucifixion would have warranted a note in some history? Especially when closely coupled with an earthquake and worldwide darkness.?
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2012 11:50:42 GMT -5
Would you rather give alms to a lame man or be in a place to be able to say with power and authority, "rise up and walk"? That is like asking whether you think Jesus would rather heal the leper standing in front of him or cure the disease and end the suffering for many, not only those alive at the time but of the millions who would suffer with leprosy over time. Who would have guessed he would choose the quick, short term miracle of helping the single person over helping the multitudes.
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 5, 2012 14:30:40 GMT -5
Just a bit of humour. Benny Hinn has no credibility as far as I know. Do you know of a faith healer that does have verifiable evidence? Yes Jesus
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2012 14:59:03 GMT -5
Just a bit of humour. Benny Hinn has no credibility as far as I know. Do you know of a faith healer that does have verifiable evidence? No, as I said, Benny Hinn is your best source of confirmation that external faith healing works. Stick with Benny for the answer on that one. That said, I do believe that faith-like positive thinking and positive energy is helpful in the healing process. Around here, it is a specific part of the regimen for cancer survivors to "surround yourself with positive people". Scientific proof? The ability of placebos to attain their targeted effect in 35-75% of many health problems according to Dr.Rankin. Next year, Dr.Lissa Rankin will be issuing a new book detailing Harvard studies and other sources in her book called "Mind Over Medicine: Scientific Proof You Can Heal Yourself" (Hay House, 2013).
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2012 18:12:51 GMT -5
That said, I do believe that faith-like positive thinking and positive energy is helpful in the healing process. Around here, it is a specific part of the regimen for cancer survivors to "surround yourself with positive people". Prayer, as long as people know they are being prayer for, has a positive effect. I am not sure she was talking about faith healing. More about the body's ability to heal itself. It will be interesting. There has been little prerelease information.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2012 18:41:19 GMT -5
That said, I do believe that faith-like positive thinking and positive energy is helpful in the healing process. Around here, it is a specific part of the regimen for cancer survivors to "surround yourself with positive people". Prayer, as long as people know they are being prayer for, has a positive effect. Most likely true to some degree but the most effective prayer is probably one regarding self-healing. [/quote] Definitely a valid point, some healing is inevitable. Some doctors use placebos knowing that the body will heal itself anyway, given a bit of time. However, I fully expect that placebos give healing a notable assist because of the patient's newfound belief that they are swallowing a cure and it turns them very positive about their prospects. Here is a bit of what we can expect from her upcoming book: Studies show that, when given placebo pills, sham treatments, and fake surgery:
Bronchi dilate in asthmatics Balding men grow hair Ulcers heal over Tumors melt away Headaches resolve Colitis gets better Angina disappears Depressed people feel happy Endometriosis symptoms resolve Knee pain goes away Parkinson’s improves This doesn’t happen 100% when people are treated with fake treatment, but the numbers I’m finding are pretty staggering. Placebos get people well on between 35-75%. I’ll be sharing all the percentages and scientific references to support what I'm saying in my upcoming book, but I just wanted to give you a heads up so you know how powerfully the mind can affect the body.
How does this happen? I'll be discussing the biological mechanisms scientists propose in a future blog post, so stay tuned.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2012 19:29:30 GMT -5
The mind is powerful. We have proof that we can lower blood pressure, heart rate etc so why not do other things with the mind?
TS during my last operation they 'lost me'. Does that mean I have been raised from the dead?
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Post by ts on Aug 5, 2012 19:50:07 GMT -5
The mind is powerful. We have proof that we can lower blood pressure, heart rate etc so why not do other things with the mind? TS during my last operation they 'lost me'. Does that mean I have been raised from the dead? I don't know. Did your soul leave your body? I am curious what you think of life after death. Best I remember you don't believe in a Heaven or Hell. If I have that wrong, please correct me. I get the impression from you that death is just ceasing to exist and that is it.( I am modifying here: I wrote the bold and the rest of the post thinking I was writing to Clearday, just for the record. I really have no idea what you feel about life after death but long ago Clearday and I had a discussion I can't quite remember the details of). I will ask you a question and you can take it as hypothetical. If a man and his son were in car crash where both of them were definitely killed and their heads split open and their brains definitely spilled out, a man prays for them and their bodies "reconstitute" and they come to life, would you consider that being raised from the dead? As far as healing, if a person's arm is completely crushed with bones sticking out and skin shredded, people pray for him and he watches his arm come back together in an instant, would you consider that to be healing? Again, just hypothetically speaking.
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2012 20:01:27 GMT -5
The mind is powerful. We have proof that we can lower blood pressure, heart rate etc so why not do other things with the mind? TS during my last operation they 'lost me'. Does that mean I have been raised from the dead? You would need to define what they meant by the phrase "lost me". Could mean that your heart stopped beating. Not an uncommon occurrence during surgery. Of course if your ERG was flat that is a different problem to consider
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Post by sharonw on Aug 5, 2012 20:01:50 GMT -5
Ask the person who was raised from the dead. I sure people would have done just that. Wouldn't you think the many people raised from the dead at the time of the crucifixion would have warranted a note in some history? Especially when closely coupled with an earthquake and worldwide darkness.? Rat, It plainly states that those who had risen DID go and appeared to some in the city.....you see it's kind of like this, those Graves were what was opened during the earthquake that happened about the time Jesus died on the cross.....but we have to keep in mind Jesus is the firstborn of the dead unto living, so those in those graves could not have risen UNTIL Jesus was risen...the appearing to some in the city was after Jesus risen.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 5, 2012 20:07:24 GMT -5
Prayer, as long as people know they are being prayer for, has a positive effect. Most likely true to some degree but the most effective prayer is probably one regarding self-healing. I am not sure she was talking about faith healing. More about the body's ability to heal itself. It will be interesting. There has been little prerelease information. [/quote] Definitely a valid point, some healing is inevitable. Some doctors use placebos knowing that the body will heal itself anyway, given a bit of time. However, I fully expect that placebos give healing a notable assist because of the patient's newfound belief that they are swallowing a cure and it turns them very positive about their prospects. Here is a bit of what we can expect from her upcoming book: Studies show that, when given placebo pills, sham treatments, and fake surgery:
Bronchi dilate in asthmatics Balding men grow hair Ulcers heal over Tumors melt away Headaches resolve Colitis gets better Angina disappears Depressed people feel happy Endometriosis symptoms resolve Knee pain goes away Parkinson’s improves This doesn’t happen 100% when people are treated with fake treatment, but the numbers I’m finding are pretty staggering. Placebos get people well on between 35-75%. I’ll be sharing all the percentages and scientific references to support what I'm saying in my upcoming book, but I just wanted to give you a heads up so you know how powerfully the mind can affect the body.
How does this happen? I'll be discussing the biological mechanisms scientists propose in a future blog post, so stay tuned. [/quote] Clearday, as a health practitioner, I have noted that the "mind over matter" does make a difference....that said, means that first hand, when anyone seeks help from any one source to be healed that they must believe that IT WILL HAPPEN, then in perhaps a good number of cases it does happen. That said, I believe that IF we were to all be healed and made like new again, that sooner or later we would realize we don't need heaven and I don't think that is what God had in mind when Jesus healed some and didn't heal others. I believe as Mary did, if i were able to touch the hem of his garment, I'd feel virtue flow into me and I'd be healed...but if we were healed of all disease, etc then how in the heck do we expect to ever get around to dying, eh?
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 5, 2012 20:42:03 GMT -5
The mind is powerful. We have proof that we can lower blood pressure, heart rate etc so why not do other things with the mind? TS during my last operation they 'lost me'. Does that mean I have been raised from the dead? Snow did they find you or are they still looking?
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Post by ts on Aug 5, 2012 20:52:38 GMT -5
Clearday, as a health practitioner, I have noted that the "mind over matter" does make a difference....that said, means that first hand, when anyone seeks help from any one source to be healed that they must believe that IT WILL HAPPEN, then in perhaps a good number of cases it does happen.
That said, I believe that IF we were to all be healed and made like new again, that sooner or later we would realize we don't need heaven and I don't think that is what God had in mind when Jesus healed some and didn't heal others.
I believe as Mary did, if i were able to touch the hem of his garment, I'd feel virtue flow into me and I'd be healed...but if we were healed of all disease, etc then how in the heck do we expect to ever get around to dying, eh?Sharon, I talked with a lady today who smoked. She was talking about smoking and said that it does not matter what you do that you are not going to die until your time comes. Of course I do not agree with that point of view. In the meetings(and probably in a lot of churches) there is not preached the concept of fulfilling your destiny. It is possible to live a life like Jesus lived. Being guided by the Holy Spirit and doing and saying ONLY what the Holy Spirit says to do. That is where we arrive at the right place at the right time to foil the forces of darkness that cause the sickness and diseases. That is where our power comes from. It isn't really US that is doing it but our cooperation with Heaven that makes it happen. We do have authority because we are children of the Most High. We do have a choice, however, to do our own thing and misuse our gifts or not use them at all. We have a choice to misuse our bodies and end our lives well before God planned and well before our work is complete. False teaching and false doctrine can even blind us to our destiny. We don't have to have a close relationship with God. It isn't automatic. We really must cultivate that relationship and be diligent every day in it. We certainly have seen how people substitute fitting into a system for having a real relationship....and live their whole lives that way and get a good funeral. Not saying they are saved or not saved. Just not fulfilling their destiny. There is no formula to healing or raising the dead. No formula to follow to see miracles happen. Sharon, whether we understand what Jesus was doing to heal or not; whether we understand what the disciples were doing later on...and Paul, is it not a worthy aspiration to be in such a place as Jesus was in? Or in such a place of understanding that the disciples were in? To be used fully and completely by the Holy Spirit for the sake of the kingdom? Are the miracles that followed the disciples not called "infallible proofs" of Jesus' power? I do not think that it is at all right to compare what doctors do with the infallible proofs of Jesus' work of recreation and healing.
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Post by ts on Aug 5, 2012 21:05:51 GMT -5
Ask the person who was raised from the dead. I sure people would have done just that. Wouldn't you think the many people raised from the dead at the time of the crucifixion would have warranted a note in some history? Especially when closely coupled with an earthquake and worldwide darkness.? Many raised from the dead perhaps SHOULD have more of a note in history. If you are going to believe that men can make up stories to make lies seem true, you must also believe in the same ability to make true things seem like lies. If you saw a person grow a limb right before your eyes and the person performing the miracle were declaring that it was done in the name and power of Jesus, would you believe what that person had to say about the reality of God? Just hypothetically. Would that convince you of the existence of God?
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2012 22:40:15 GMT -5
The mind is powerful. We have proof that we can lower blood pressure, heart rate etc so why not do other things with the mind? TS during my last operation they 'lost me'. Does that mean I have been raised from the dead? I don't know. Did your soul leave your body? I am curious what you think of life after death. Best I remember you don't believe in a Heaven or Hell. If I have that wrong, please correct me. I get the impression from you that death is just ceasing to exist and that is it.( I am modifying here: I wrote the bold and the rest of the post thinking I was writing to Clearday, just for the record. I really have no idea what you feel about life after death but long ago Clearday and I had a discussion I can't quite remember the details of). I will ask you a question and you can take it as hypothetical. If a man and his son were in car crash where both of them were definitely killed and their heads split open and their brains definitely spilled out, a man prays for them and their bodies "reconstitute" and they come to life, would you consider that being raised from the dead? As far as healing, if a person's arm is completely crushed with bones sticking out and skin shredded, people pray for him and he watches his arm come back together in an instant, would you consider that to be healing? Again, just hypothetically speaking. As far as an afterlife, I honestly don't know. I don't believe there is a hell because that is a Christian belief. But not sure if we exist after we die or not. I lean towards reincarnation mostly. What we do inbetween lives, I don't have any idea. Hypothetically speaking if I saw someone's arm piece back together in front of my eyes, I would think there was something pretty special going on. Only if it was happening quickly though and not under a surgeons fingers.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2012 22:41:23 GMT -5
The mind is powerful. We have proof that we can lower blood pressure, heart rate etc so why not do other things with the mind? TS during my last operation they 'lost me'. Does that mean I have been raised from the dead? You would need to define what they meant by the phrase "lost me". Could mean that your heart stopped beating. Not an uncommon occurrence during surgery. Of course if your ERG was flat that is a different problem to consider I don't know what all happened. Those were the words used when they told me and I was pretty groggy and never thought to ask any questions.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2012 22:42:56 GMT -5
The mind is powerful. We have proof that we can lower blood pressure, heart rate etc so why not do other things with the mind? TS during my last operation they 'lost me'. Does that mean I have been raised from the dead? Snow did they find you or are they still looking? LOL I think they did, however, I'm still looking...
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Post by ts on Aug 5, 2012 23:56:27 GMT -5
I don't know. Did your soul leave your body? I am curious what you think of life after death. Best I remember you don't believe in a Heaven or Hell. If I have that wrong, please correct me. I get the impression from you that death is just ceasing to exist and that is it.( I am modifying here: I wrote the bold and the rest of the post thinking I was writing to Clearday, just for the record. I really have no idea what you feel about life after death but long ago Clearday and I had a discussion I can't quite remember the details of). I will ask you a question and you can take it as hypothetical. If a man and his son were in car crash where both of them were definitely killed and their heads split open and their brains definitely spilled out, a man prays for them and their bodies "reconstitute" and they come to life, would you consider that being raised from the dead? As far as healing, if a person's arm is completely crushed with bones sticking out and skin shredded, people pray for him and he watches his arm come back together in an instant, would you consider that to be healing? Again, just hypothetically speaking. As far as an afterlife, I honestly don't know. I don't believe there is a hell because that is a Christian belief. But not sure if we exist after we die or not. I lean towards reincarnation mostly. What we do inbetween lives, I don't have any idea. Hypothetically speaking if I saw someone's arm piece back together in front of my eyes, I would think there was something pretty special going on. Only if it was happening quickly though and not under a surgeons fingers. I am talking healings happening in seconds to minutes at the most. Not things done by doctors, I agree. The next question is, if this sort of healing were to take place before our eyes and it were done in the name of Jesus, the Son of the Creator of the Universe and only Saviour of man's souls, would you consider changing your disbelief in God?
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Post by kiwi on Aug 6, 2012 1:09:11 GMT -5
Snow did they find you or are they still looking? LOL I think they did, however, I'm still looking... Tried looking in the closet
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 6:13:58 GMT -5
As far as an afterlife, I honestly don't know. I don't believe there is a hell because that is a Christian belief. But not sure if we exist after we die or not. I lean towards reincarnation mostly. What we do inbetween lives, I don't have any idea. Hypothetically speaking if I saw someone's arm piece back together in front of my eyes, I would think there was something pretty special going on. Only if it was happening quickly though and not under a surgeons fingers. I am talking healings happening in seconds to minutes at the most. Not things done by doctors, I agree. The next question is, if this sort of healing were to take place before our eyes and it were done in the name of Jesus, the Son of the Creator of the Universe and only Saviour of man's souls, would you consider changing your disbelief in God? The magicians of Pharaoh could do miracles as well. The devil can heal as well.
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Post by sacerdotal on Aug 6, 2012 7:10:26 GMT -5
I am talking healings happening in seconds to minutes at the most. Not things done by doctors, I agree. The next question is, if this sort of healing were to take place before our eyes and it were done in the name of Jesus, the Son of the Creator of the Universe and only Saviour of man's souls, would you consider changing your disbelief in God? The magicians of Pharaoh could do miracles as well. The devil can heal as well. And the Pharisees accused Jesus of such as well.
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2012 7:27:09 GMT -5
Rat, It plainly states that those who had risen DID go and appeared to some in the city.....you see it's kind of like this, those Graves were what was opened during the earthquake that happened about the time Jesus died on the cross.....but we have to keep in mind Jesus is the firstborn of the dead unto living, so those in those graves could not have risen UNTIL Jesus was risen...the appearing to some in the city was after Jesus risen. You have to keep in mind that you have many 'dead' people walking around and talking to others and there is not a mention of it anywhere but the bible. Nor the earth quake. Or the darkness. Don't you think this would have been noticed if it really happened?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 7:44:27 GMT -5
Have you changed the theme of this thread again ts? More ducking and weaving,still unanswered questions.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 9:15:26 GMT -5
Clearday, as a health practitioner, I have noted that the "mind over matter" does make a difference....that said, means that first hand, when anyone seeks help from any one source to be healed that they must believe that IT WILL HAPPEN, then in perhaps a good number of cases it does happen.
That said, I believe that IF we were to all be healed and made like new again, that sooner or later we would realize we don't need heaven and I don't think that is what God had in mind when Jesus healed some and didn't heal others.
I believe as Mary did, if i were able to touch the hem of his garment, I'd feel virtue flow into me and I'd be healed...but if we were healed of all disease, etc then how in the heck do we expect to ever get around to dying, eh?Sharon, I talked with a lady today who smoked. She was talking about smoking and said that it does not matter what you do that you are not going to die until your time comes. Of course I do not agree with that point of view. In the meetings(and probably in a lot of churches) there is not preached the concept of fulfilling your destiny. It is possible to live a life like Jesus lived. Being guided by the Holy Spirit and doing and saying ONLY what the Holy Spirit says to do. That is where we arrive at the right place at the right time to foil the forces of darkness that cause the sickness and diseases. That is where our power comes from. It isn't really US that is doing it but our cooperation with Heaven that makes it happen. We do have authority because we are children of the Most High. We do have a choice, however, to do our own thing and misuse our gifts or not use them at all. We have a choice to misuse our bodies and end our lives well before God planned and well before our work is complete. False teaching and false doctrine can even blind us to our destiny. We don't have to have a close relationship with God. It isn't automatic. We really must cultivate that relationship and be diligent every day in it. We certainly have seen how people substitute fitting into a system for having a real relationship....and live their whole lives that way and get a good funeral. Not saying they are saved or not saved. Just not fulfilling their destiny. There is no formula to healing or raising the dead. No formula to follow to see miracles happen. Sharon, whether we understand what Jesus was doing to heal or not; whether we understand what the disciples were doing later on...and Paul, is it not a worthy aspiration to be in such a place as Jesus was in? Or in such a place of understanding that the disciples were in? To be used fully and completely by the Holy Spirit for the sake of the kingdom? Are the miracles that followed the disciples not called "infallible proofs" of Jesus' power? I do not think that it is at all right to compare what doctors do with the infallible proofs of Jesus' work of recreation and healing. TS, you certainly are not giving the credit for the major strides in medicine to have been of God. I firmly believe that the "healers" of Jesus to Paul's days were the only ones who were able to do such healings and when all those people were slaughtered by the enemy, then God had to allow the "healing arts" which are Doctors and Nurses applying those healing arts. It seems to me that when all the FIRST generation of Jesus' disciples ended with slaughtery by the enemy, that the "passing on" of the healing ability was lost because it came by "Laying on the hands" a new disciple/apostle as Paul explained to Timorthy....so when all of those men died out, how in the heck do you think other men could come into that? They couldn't because it had to be passed one to another by "Laying on of hands" So what could God do that would take that issue's place. He made it where minds were intellectual enough in one avenue of expertise to do research and healing and we call those who "lay on the hands" practice as Doctors and nurses. the Laying on of hands was not lost, but the powers of those hands changed...it had to for it to have evolved into the medical expansion of treatment today.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 9:39:42 GMT -5
We must remember too that Jesus came and also sent his apostles to the Jews. It speaks of the Jews that they required a sign. Healing was one of the promises of Jesus coming and a sign to back up that promise. I can not find anywhere that that this was a promise to the gentiles or that the gentiles looked for this as a sign. Paul had a thorn in the flesh that he asked God to heal. Why didn't he ask the apostles to heal it?He told Timothy to take some wine for his stomachs sake. why wouldn't the apostles have healed that for him?
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2012 12:41:26 GMT -5
As far as an afterlife, I honestly don't know. I don't believe there is a hell because that is a Christian belief. But not sure if we exist after we die or not. I lean towards reincarnation mostly. What we do inbetween lives, I don't have any idea. Hypothetically speaking if I saw someone's arm piece back together in front of my eyes, I would think there was something pretty special going on. Only if it was happening quickly though and not under a surgeons fingers. I am talking healings happening in seconds to minutes at the most. Not things done by doctors, I agree. The next question is, if this sort of healing were to take place before our eyes and it were done in the name of Jesus, the Son of the Creator of the Universe and only Saviour of man's souls, would you consider changing your disbelief in God? I don't think I would change my mind about Jesus. I already believe we have amazing powers of healing. If I saw an arm that was busted reform itself in minutes by itself, I would not think it was Jesus, but I would likely believe that the source of life was directing us in healing ourselves. You see, I believe we are wonderfully made and only starting to realize the power of our own 'divinity'. We are individual sparks of creator/creation and so we would have the same powers in diluted form. However, accessing the 'whole', may be possible and then anything is possible imo. I don't believe in the God they talk about in the Bible, but I do believe there is a source of all that exists. I am positive that there is nothing that I could witness that ever would allow me to believe in the God of the Bible, Torah, or Quran. That's not a God imo, that's a petty dictator. I'm sorry to put it so strongly, but I do not have good feelings about that God at all. He sounds more like a manmade idol that man can use to justify their less than ideal ways.
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