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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2012 12:43:25 GMT -5
LOL I think they did, however, I'm still looking... Tried looking in the closet Kees, good thinking. I'm probably under the blanket I used to hide under when I was going to get a spanking!!! Far in the corner of the dark and safe closet. I'll have a look right now!!!
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2012 12:46:16 GMT -5
We must remember too that Jesus came and also sent his apostles to the Jews. It speaks of the Jews that they required a sign. Healing was one of the promises of Jesus coming and a sign to back up that promise. I can not find anywhere that that this was a promise to the gentiles or that the gentiles looked for this as a sign. Paul had a thorn in the flesh that he asked God to heal. Why didn't he ask the apostles to heal it?He told Timothy to take some wine for his stomachs sake. why wouldn't the apostles have healed that for him? Lin, I have always wondered about that too. I also wondered why only certain people were healed and not the disease in general. It's all symbolic imo.
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Post by ts on Aug 6, 2012 14:05:10 GMT -5
I am talking healings happening in seconds to minutes at the most. Not things done by doctors, I agree. The next question is, if this sort of healing were to take place before our eyes and it were done in the name of Jesus, the Son of the Creator of the Universe and only Saviour of man's souls, would you consider changing your disbelief in God? I don't think I would change my mind about Jesus. I already believe we have amazing powers of healing. If I saw an arm that was busted reform itself in minutes by itself, I would not think it was Jesus, but I would likely believe that the source of life was directing us in healing ourselves. You see, I believe we are wonderfully made and only starting to realize the power of our own 'divinity'. We are individual sparks of creator/creation and so we would have the same powers in diluted form. However, accessing the 'whole', may be possible and then anything is possible imo. I don't believe in the God they talk about in the Bible, but I do believe there is a source of all that exists. I am positive that there is nothing that I could witness that ever would allow me to believe in the God of the Bible, Torah, or Quran. That's not a God imo, that's a petty dictator. I'm sorry to put it so strongly, but I do not have good feelings about that God at all. He sounds more like a manmade idol that man can use to justify their less than ideal ways. Thanks, snow, for your honesty. I really can relate to what you are saying. I also grew up in an abusive environment with an abusive father. I know from experience that my view of God was definitely warped. I am still in the process of learning to trust that there could possibly be a Heavenly Father who is kind and loving. I am seeking that relationship and finding it. In the process I got involved in meetings, went into the work, found abuse there. Then I got involved in New Age even while in the work and continued even more so outside the work and meetings. Even took courses and became a "healer". While I was in the work I got some Reiki "attunements" and became a "Master Reiki" practitioner. Some of the other friends were doing the same thing from the same guy at the time although they did not go to the "master" level. During this time I was talking to the Reiki practitioner about the abuse in the work and trying to find a solution for the stress I was under. I also learned Tai Chi while in the work. All of this because of my declining health. I was really good at "energy work". The Tai Chi master wanted me to become his protege. It was a bit tempting but I was in the work and thought I would spend my life doing that. Then when I left the work all messed up from the abuse, I did not know what to do with my life. In an effort to try and sort my health out I was going to a "One Brain" therapist while I was in (what was to be) my last days in the work. I realized during this time that I was not likely going to be able to make it in the work. I decided during that time that I wanted to do the kind "energy work" that they were doing. So, I left the work and within a year I had taken a host of courses and set up a practice that lasted a year and a half. I was also involved in Native American spiritualism, animal totems and such. I learned Chi Gong from a chi gong master and taught and practiced his methods of energy renewal and healing. I also took a course in "AFT" which included "A Course in Miracles", a very New Age book. While all of these practices might not necessarily be classified as "New Age", my involvement in them certainly put me in New Agey type circles. So, the acceptance of "The power of our own divinity" was a part of my learning during that time. I think I got involved in all of that because of a misperception of the nature of the Father in Heaven. The Meetings were not interested in healing, and, consequently, there were a LOT of sick folks. Workers had all sorts of ailments and allergies and depression... One of the reasons I went into practice was so that I could be a help to the workers and did indeed see some workers in my practice. (I was still professing when I had my practice). I eventually married and my wife then started getting involved in New Age/spirituality because of my influence. She was also raised in an abusive(emotionally abusive) environment in meeting and in an abusive family. She was/is also very spiritual. She picked up on the spiritual side of things much quicker than I did. Spirits could manifest to her much easier than myself. She had "benevolent" and "malevolent" spirits manifesting to her. However, even the "benevolent" one turned malevolent when she actually turned to Jesus. What I am saying is that we have been through the "spirit that moves in all things" , "the universe", and other manifestations of the same thought of "Universal consciousness" and "personal divinity". That was the result of my sincere heart wanting more than a powerless gospel and abusive ministry could offer. Fortunately we met along the way some true christians who were showing the love of Christ. They saw us in our need and responded to God's voice and reached down to help us. We did not even trust them. They required nothing from us in return. They just wanted to see us to grow spiritually. They prayed for us and with us. They gave us food and a place to stay. I can say that my perception of the God of the Bible has changed. He led us through the wilderness and cared for us all the way even though we were complaining. Now we are realizing the love of a Father that we did not learn from our own natural Fathers. I do believe that our fathers have a great responsibility to show the nature of God to their children. If they fail in this, the child is left to figure it out as an adult. It is possible, but often more difficult. There are years of insecurity in between. I just want to assure you that the God of the Bible is different to what you have know or understood. You can even be angry at him and shout at Him about why this or that happened...It does not affect His love for us. I know because I have done that. He wants to hear from us the raw emotion of our experiences. He is big enough and emotionally secure enough to not get His feelings hurt and send a lightning bolt down to strike us.
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Post by ts on Aug 6, 2012 14:13:34 GMT -5
Have you changed the theme of this thread again ts? More ducking and weaving,still unanswered questions. I think the tread is a question that has been ducked and weaved around from the beginning. If Leslie White is not a worker, then when did he cease to be a worker? Is the definition of a worker someone that stays in the work with Barry Barkley's approval regardless of his known abuse of power? Or is a worker a person who actually cares for the flock(the friends) regardless of Barry Barkely's (or any overseer) approval?
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Post by ts on Aug 6, 2012 14:16:43 GMT -5
We must remember too that Jesus came and also sent his apostles to the Jews. It speaks of the Jews that they required a sign. Healing was one of the promises of Jesus coming and a sign to back up that promise. I can not find anywhere that that this was a promise to the gentiles or that the gentiles looked for this as a sign. Paul had a thorn in the flesh that he asked God to heal. Why didn't he ask the apostles to heal it?He told Timothy to take some wine for his stomachs sake. why wouldn't the apostles have healed that for him? So are you saying that there are no miracle healings today like in Jesus' day? Are you saying that any such "healing" is either a fake or of the devil?
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2012 15:18:15 GMT -5
I don't think I would change my mind about Jesus. I already believe we have amazing powers of healing. If I saw an arm that was busted reform itself in minutes by itself, I would not think it was Jesus, but I would likely believe that the source of life was directing us in healing ourselves. You see, I believe we are wonderfully made and only starting to realize the power of our own 'divinity'. We are individual sparks of creator/creation and so we would have the same powers in diluted form. However, accessing the 'whole', may be possible and then anything is possible imo. I don't believe in the God they talk about in the Bible, but I do believe there is a source of all that exists. I am positive that there is nothing that I could witness that ever would allow me to believe in the God of the Bible, Torah, or Quran. That's not a God imo, that's a petty dictator. I'm sorry to put it so strongly, but I do not have good feelings about that God at all. He sounds more like a manmade idol that man can use to justify their less than ideal ways. Thanks, snow, for your honesty. I really can relate to what you are saying. I also grew up in an abusive environment with an abusive father. I know from experience that my view of God was definitely warped. I am still in the process of learning to trust that there could possibly be a Heavenly Father who is kind and loving. I am seeking that relationship and finding it. In the process I got involved in meetings, went into the work, found abuse there. Then I got involved in New Age even while in the work and continued even more so outside the work and meetings. Even took courses and became a "healer". While I was in the work I got some Reiki "attunements" and became a "Master Reiki" practitioner. Some of the other friends were doing the same thing from the same guy at the time although they did not go to the "master" level. During this time I was talking to the Reiki practitioner about the abuse in the work and trying to find a solution for the stress I was under. I also learned Tai Chi while in the work. All of this because of my declining health. I was really good at "energy work". The Tai Chi master wanted me to become his protege. It was a bit tempting but I was in the work and thought I would spend my life doing that. Then when I left the work all messed up from the abuse, I did not know what to do with my life. In an effort to try and sort my health out I was going to a "One Brain" therapist while I was in (what was to be) my last days in the work. I realized during this time that I was not likely going to be able to make it in the work. I decided during that time that I wanted to do the kind "energy work" that they were doing. So, I left the work and within a year I had taken a host of courses and set up a practice that lasted a year and a half. I was also involved in Native American spiritualism, animal totems and such. I learned Chi Gong from a chi gong master and taught and practiced his methods of energy renewal and healing. I also took a course in "AFT" which included "A Course in Miracles", a very New Age book. While all of these practices might not necessarily be classified as "New Age", my involvement in them certainly put me in New Agey type circles. So, the acceptance of "The power of our own divinity" was a part of my learning during that time. I think I got involved in all of that because of a misperception of the nature of the Father in Heaven. The Meetings were not interested in healing, and, consequently, there were a LOT of sick folks. Workers had all sorts of ailments and allergies and depression... One of the reasons I went into practice was so that I could be a help to the workers and did indeed see some workers in my practice. (I was still professing when I had my practice). I eventually married and my wife then started getting involved in New Age/spirituality because of my influence. She was also raised in an abusive(emotionally abusive) environment in meeting and in an abusive family. She was/is also very spiritual. She picked up on the spiritual side of things much quicker than I did. Spirits could manifest to her much easier than myself. She had "benevolent" and "malevolent" spirits manifesting to her. However, even the "benevolent" one turned malevolent when she actually turned to Jesus. What I am saying is that we have been through the "spirit that moves in all things" , "the universe", and other manifestations of the same thought of "Universal consciousness" and "personal divinity". That was the result of my sincere heart wanting more than a powerless gospel and abusive ministry could offer. Fortunately we met along the way some true christians who were showing the love of Christ. They saw us in our need and responded to God's voice and reached down to help us. We did not even trust them. They required nothing from us in return. They just wanted to see us to grow spiritually. They prayed for us and with us. They gave us food and a place to stay. I can say that my perception of the God of the Bible has changed. He led us through the wilderness and cared for us all the way even though we were complaining. Now we are realizing the love of a Father that we did not learn from our own natural Fathers. I do believe that our fathers have a great responsibility to show the nature of God to their children. If they fail in this, the child is left to figure it out as an adult. It is possible, but often more difficult. There are years of insecurity in between. I just want to assure you that the God of the Bible is different to what you have know or understood. You can even be angry at him and shout at Him about why this or that happened...It does not affect His love for us. I know because I have done that. He wants to hear from us the raw emotion of our experiences. He is big enough and emotionally secure enough to not get His feelings hurt and send a lightning bolt down to strike us. ts, thank you so much for sharing that. You have had quite the journey and done many things. I am glad you have now found something that resonates for you so well. I have done some of the things you mentioned but didn't connect with the people that hung in those circles too much. I found most of them to be too 'out there' for me. I have used energy medicine. I use healing touch which I learned from an RN that was giving classes to some nurses in the area. I find it works very well for me in handling pain levels. I haven't cured anything with it, but I can reduce pain levels so I can keep my meds down. For that I find it useful. You never know how people will go as they journey. However, I share your belief that God must be loving and can take temper tantrums just fine. All the best ts.
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Post by ts on Aug 6, 2012 15:21:03 GMT -5
Paul said that it was a "messenger of Satan sent to buffet him". It did not say that he had an infirmity. It was a demon or perhaps more likely a fallen angel. That is what a "messenger of Satan" is. Just like a"messenger of God" is an angel.
Satan is an accuser of the brethren. Where we have had weaknesses or sin, even in the past, that is where Satan will often find an area to buffet us in. Paul killed God's people. I can well imagine this happening, though there is nothing specific said along this line. If Satan were to torment Paul about the deaths of the saints, Paul would have had to rely on God's grace and remember the promises continually. Paul would have had to use the strength of God's word against the messenger of Satan because Paul himself is no match for the messenger. God's strength is made perfect in weakness.
I wonder about Timothy drinking wine for his "oft infirmities". The blood of Jesus covers our sin and infirmities. I don't think that Paul was playing doctor and suggesting a common folk remedy of the time. Not sure what wine in and of itself would do for some sort of stomach ailment that water aggravated, anyway.
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Post by Greg on Aug 6, 2012 15:26:57 GMT -5
Have you changed the theme of this thread again ts? More ducking and weaving,still unanswered questions. I think the tread is a question that has been ducked and weaved around from the beginning. If Leslie White is not a worker, then when did he cease to be a worker? Is the definition of a worker someone that stays in the work with Barry Barkley's approval regardless of his known abuse of power? Or is a worker a person who actually cares for the flock(the friends) regardless of Barry Barkely's (or any overseer) approval? What is the definition for "worker" in your subject question, ts?
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Post by ts on Aug 6, 2012 15:55:48 GMT -5
I think the tread is a question that has been ducked and weaved around from the beginning. If Leslie White is not a worker, then when did he cease to be a worker? Is the definition of a worker someone that stays in the work with Barry Barkley's approval regardless of his known abuse of power? Or is a worker a person who actually cares for the flock(the friends) regardless of Barry Barkely's (or any overseer) approval? What is the definition for "worker" in your subject question, ts? I think one must define what a worker is in order to answer the question. If we accept that a worker is just a fellow who is not married and preaches the doctrine of the meetings, accepted by the overseers but who may or may not be abusive and ruining the spiritual lives of the friends and workers, then the answer will be one thing. If we accept that a worker is one who cares for God's people and is willing to speak up against abuse even against the overseers, even though the overseers may use their power to alienate you from the friends, then the answer will be different. If a worker were abusive towards women for years and years but could cover up the abuses well, was he really a worker all those years?
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Post by Greg on Aug 6, 2012 16:00:40 GMT -5
What is the definition for "worker" in your subject question, ts? I think one must define what a worker is in order to answer the question. If we accept that a worker is just a fellow who is not married and preaches the doctrine of the meetings, accepted by the overseers but who may or may not be abusive and ruining the spiritual lives of the friends and workers, then the answer will be one thing. If we accept that a worker is one who cares for God's people and is willing to speak up against abuse even against the overseers, even though the overseers may use their power to alienate you from the friends, then the answer will be different. If a worker were abusive towards women for years and years but could cover up the abuses well, was he really a worker all those years? What is your definition?
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Post by quizzer on Aug 6, 2012 16:10:31 GMT -5
Thanks, snow, for your honesty. I really can relate to what you are saying. I also grew up in an abusive environment with an abusive father. I know from experience that my view of God was definitely warped. I am still in the process of learning to trust that there could possibly be a Heavenly Father who is kind and loving. I am seeking that relationship and finding it. In the process I got involved in meetings, went into the work, found abuse there. Then I got involved in New Age even while in the work and continued even more so outside the work and meetings. Even took courses and became a "healer". While I was in the work I got some Reiki "attunements" and became a "Master Reiki" practitioner. Some of the other friends were doing the same thing from the same guy at the time although they did not go to the "master" level. During this time I was talking to the Reiki practitioner about the abuse in the work and trying to find a solution for the stress I was under. I also learned Tai Chi while in the work. All of this because of my declining health. I was really good at "energy work". The Tai Chi master wanted me to become his protege. It was a bit tempting but I was in the work and thought I would spend my life doing that. Then when I left the work all messed up from the abuse, I did not know what to do with my life. In an effort to try and sort my health out I was going to a "One Brain" therapist while I was in (what was to be) my last days in the work. I realized during this time that I was not likely going to be able to make it in the work. I decided during that time that I wanted to do the kind "energy work" that they were doing. So, I left the work and within a year I had taken a host of courses and set up a practice that lasted a year and a half. I was also involved in Native American spiritualism, animal totems and such. I learned Chi Gong from a chi gong master and taught and practiced his methods of energy renewal and healing. I also took a course in "AFT" which included "A Course in Miracles", a very New Age book. While all of these practices might not necessarily be classified as "New Age", my involvement in them certainly put me in New Agey type circles. So, the acceptance of "The power of our own divinity" was a part of my learning during that time. I think I got involved in all of that because of a misperception of the nature of the Father in Heaven. The Meetings were not interested in healing, and, consequently, there were a LOT of sick folks. Workers had all sorts of ailments and allergies and depression... One of the reasons I went into practice was so that I could be a help to the workers and did indeed see some workers in my practice. (I was still professing when I had my practice). I eventually married and my wife then started getting involved in New Age/spirituality because of my influence. She was also raised in an abusive(emotionally abusive) environment in meeting and in an abusive family. She was/is also very spiritual. She picked up on the spiritual side of things much quicker than I did. Spirits could manifest to her much easier than myself. She had "benevolent" and "malevolent" spirits manifesting to her. However, even the "benevolent" one turned malevolent when she actually turned to Jesus. What I am saying is that we have been through the "spirit that moves in all things" , "the universe", and other manifestations of the same thought of "Universal consciousness" and "personal divinity". That was the result of my sincere heart wanting more than a powerless gospel and abusive ministry could offer. Fortunately we met along the way some true christians who were showing the love of Christ. They saw us in our need and responded to God's voice and reached down to help us. We did not even trust them. They required nothing from us in return. They just wanted to see us to grow spiritually. They prayed for us and with us. They gave us food and a place to stay. I can say that my perception of the God of the Bible has changed. He led us through the wilderness and cared for us all the way even though we were complaining. Now we are realizing the love of a Father that we did not learn from our own natural Fathers. I do believe that our fathers have a great responsibility to show the nature of God to their children. If they fail in this, the child is left to figure it out as an adult. It is possible, but often more difficult. There are years of insecurity in between. I just want to assure you that the God of the Bible is different to what you have know or understood. You can even be angry at him and shout at Him about why this or that happened...It does not affect His love for us. I know because I have done that. He wants to hear from us the raw emotion of our experiences. He is big enough and emotionally secure enough to not get His feelings hurt and send a lightning bolt down to strike us. ts, thank you so much for sharing that. You have had quite the journey and done many things. I am glad you have now found something that resonates for you so well. I have done some of the things you mentioned but didn't connect with the people that hung in those circles too much. I found most of them to be too 'out there' for me. I have used energy medicine. I use healing touch which I learned from an RN that was giving classes to some nurses in the area. I find it works very well for me in handling pain levels. I haven't cured anything with it, but I can reduce pain levels so I can keep my meds down. For that I find it useful. You never know how people will go as they journey. However, I share your belief that God must be loving and can take temper tantrums just fine. All the best ts. Odd stuff. I also investigated/read about all sorts of meditation, holistic methods. Tai Chi was one, paranormal experiences another, some Eastern meditations, native American lore. My background was growing up in the 2x2s under a spiritual killing of my family. I'm guessing we were all looking for comfort and a sense of belonging/well-being, hoping that it was all connected in a greater being.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 16:50:49 GMT -5
ts what was the abuse that you suffered in the work?
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2012 18:45:26 GMT -5
ts, thank you so much for sharing that. You have had quite the journey and done many things. I am glad you have now found something that resonates for you so well. I have done some of the things you mentioned but didn't connect with the people that hung in those circles too much. I found most of them to be too 'out there' for me. I have used energy medicine. I use healing touch which I learned from an RN that was giving classes to some nurses in the area. I find it works very well for me in handling pain levels. I haven't cured anything with it, but I can reduce pain levels so I can keep my meds down. For that I find it useful. You never know how people will go as they journey. However, I share your belief that God must be loving and can take temper tantrums just fine. All the best ts. Odd stuff. I also investigated/read about all sorts of meditation, holistic methods. Tai Chi was one, paranormal experiences another, some Eastern meditations, native American lore. My background was growing up in the 2x2s under a spiritual killing of my family. I'm guessing we were all looking for comfort and a sense of belonging/well-being, hoping that it was all connected in a greater being. Maybe, but this was within the last 10 years of the 40 I've been gone. At first I was very much an athiest and was for 30 years. That changed to agnostic in the last 10, quite slowly, but it has. I have my thoughts about things now, but would have to say I just don't know anything for sure when it comes to the God topic.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 19:02:43 GMT -5
Paul said that it was a "messenger of Satan sent to buffet him". It did not say that he had an infirmity. It was a demon or perhaps more likely a fallen angel. That is what a "messenger of Satan" is. Just like a"messenger of God" is an angel. Satan is an accuser of the brethren. Where we have had weaknesses or sin, even in the past, that is where Satan will often find an area to buffet us in. Paul killed God's people. I can well imagine this happening, though there is nothing specific said along this line. If Satan were to torment Paul about the deaths of the saints, Paul would have had to rely on God's grace and remember the promises continually. Paul would have had to use the strength of God's word against the messenger of Satan because Paul himself is no match for the messenger. God's strength is made perfect in weakness. I wonder about Timothy drinking wine for his "oft infirmities". The blood of Jesus covers our sin and infirmities. I don't think that Paul was playing doctor and suggesting a common folk remedy of the time. Not sure what wine in and of itself would do for some sort of stomach ailment that water aggravated, anyway. One of the reasons wine was often used "for the stomach's sake" is simply because due to lack of water filters/purifiers the waters often would make people ill, so wine became a purifier of stomach problems.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 19:04:32 GMT -5
Paul said that it was a "messenger of Satan sent to buffet him". It did not say that he had an infirmity. It was a demon or perhaps more likely a fallen angel. That is what a "messenger of Satan" is. Just like a"messenger of God" is an angel. Satan is an accuser of the brethren. Where we have had weaknesses or sin, even in the past, that is where Satan will often find an area to buffet us in. Paul killed God's people. I can well imagine this happening, though there is nothing specific said along this line. If Satan were to torment Paul about the deaths of the saints, Paul would have had to rely on God's grace and remember the promises continually. Paul would have had to use the strength of God's word against the messenger of Satan because Paul himself is no match for the messenger. God's strength is made perfect in weakness. I wonder about Timothy drinking wine for his "oft infirmities". The blood of Jesus covers our sin and infirmities. I don't think that Paul was playing doctor and suggesting a common folk remedy of the time. Not sure what wine in and of itself would do for some sort of stomach ailment that water aggravated, anyway. One of the reasons wine was often used "for the stomach's sake" is simply because due to lack of water filters/purifiers the waters often would make people ill, so wine became a purifier of stomach problems. That spin is as old as the hills. If that was true,why wouldn't Timothy already be aware of the bad water.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 19:06:51 GMT -5
I don't know. Did your soul leave your body? I am curious what you think of life after death. Best I remember you don't believe in a Heaven or Hell. If I have that wrong, please correct me. I get the impression from you that death is just ceasing to exist and that is it.( I am modifying here: I wrote the bold and the rest of the post thinking I was writing to Clearday, just for the record. I really have no idea what you feel about life after death but long ago Clearday and I had a discussion I can't quite remember the details of). I will ask you a question and you can take it as hypothetical. If a man and his son were in car crash where both of them were definitely killed and their heads split open and their brains definitely spilled out, a man prays for them and their bodies "reconstitute" and they come to life, would you consider that being raised from the dead? As far as healing, if a person's arm is completely crushed with bones sticking out and skin shredded, people pray for him and he watches his arm come back together in an instant, would you consider that to be healing? Again, just hypothetically speaking. As far as an afterlife, I honestly don't know. I don't believe there is a hell because that is a Christian belief. But not sure if we exist after we die or not. I lean towards reincarnation mostly. What we do inbetween lives, I don't have any idea. Hypothetically speaking if I saw someone's arm piece back together in front of my eyes, I would think there was something pretty special going on. Only if it was happening quickly though and not under a surgeons fingers. Snow, I think a lot of Christian identify "hell" as being the grave....and of course, some will rise at the first resurrection and others will not arise until the second resurrection to face a just judge alone.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 19:11:35 GMT -5
You would need to define what they meant by the phrase "lost me". Could mean that your heart stopped beating. Not an uncommon occurrence during surgery. Of course if your ERG was flat that is a different problem to consider I don't know what all happened. Those were the words used when they told me and I was pretty groggy and never thought to ask any questions. We always assoicated "losing someone in surgery" was the fact that their hearts either stopped beating or most likely went into a fibulating type beatr which is not helpful to the body as a whole. Nearly lost likely means that a heartbeat became irregular and was likely a precursor to the fact that the heart would arrest shortly....the anesthesia would be responsible for that heart to return to a normal rhythm. Often the surgery is stalled until it does. And if the actual surgery had not started, the surgery would have been cancelled until another day. But IF the incisions were already made, then the wounds would be covered with sterile drapes and the surgical team would step back unless a complete arrest occurred in which full cpr would have been necessary. Sound like the almost lost was just a rough spot on the seas of your surgerical experience and all was recovered in good form.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 19:20:26 GMT -5
We must remember too that Jesus came and also sent his apostles to the Jews. It speaks of the Jews that they required a sign. Healing was one of the promises of Jesus coming and a sign to back up that promise. I can not find anywhere that that this was a promise to the gentiles or that the gentiles looked for this as a sign. Paul had a thorn in the flesh that he asked God to heal. Why didn't he ask the apostles to heal it?He told Timothy to take some wine for his stomachs sake. why wouldn't the apostles have healed that for him? Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God Seems that it was pretty much prescribed by Jesus Christ that healing the sick and maimed was requisate to "prove" that they were the real servants of Christ.
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Post by fred on Aug 6, 2012 19:22:32 GMT -5
One of the reasons wine was often used "for the stomach's sake" is simply because due to lack of water filters/purifiers the waters often would make people ill, so wine became a purifier of stomach problems. That spin is as old as the hills. If that was true,why wouldn't Timothy already be aware of the bad water. Ah, spin is a wonderful thing if you need an excuse. I've a mate who drinks rum to keep the scurvy at bay. Do you think that Timothy needed an excuse?
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 19:24:12 GMT -5
We must remember too that Jesus came and also sent his apostles to the Jews. It speaks of the Jews that they required a sign. Healing was one of the promises of Jesus coming and a sign to back up that promise. I can not find anywhere that that this was a promise to the gentiles or that the gentiles looked for this as a sign. Paul had a thorn in the flesh that he asked God to heal. Why didn't he ask the apostles to heal it?He told Timothy to take some wine for his stomachs sake. why wouldn't the apostles have healed that for him? So are you saying that there are no miracle healings today like in Jesus' day? Are you saying that any such "healing" is either a fake or of the devil? TS, please read the last chapter in Mark and you will see that Jesus told them that their "healing, etc" would serve as evidence that they were HIS servants. Again, when the first generation churches were completely slaughtered there would no longer be any one that had the power within them to give to someone else by the "laying on of the hands" this was the way a new servant of Jesus' was brought into servitutude to Him.
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Post by Greg on Aug 6, 2012 19:26:48 GMT -5
So are you saying that there are no miracle healings today like in Jesus' day? Are you saying that any such "healing" is either a fake or of the devil? TS, please read the last chapter in Mark and you will see that Jesus told them that their "healing, etc" would serve as evidence that they were HIS servants. Again, when the first generation churches were completely slaughtered there would no longer be any one that had the power within them to give to someone else by the "laying on of the hands" this was the way a new servant of Jesus' was brought into servitutude to Him. The first generation church was slaughtered?
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 19:27:20 GMT -5
One of the reasons wine was often used "for the stomach's sake" is simply because due to lack of water filters/purifiers the waters often would make people ill, so wine became a purifier of stomach problems. That spin is as old as the hills. If that was true,why wouldn't Timothy already be aware of the bad water. The bible didn't say Timothy didn't already know this, however he was well awware that wine could intoxicate and perhaps in trying to be pure he would have thought he shouldn't touch it, much like people do today. Lin, that "Spin is as old as the hills" has saved lives in ages past when there were no other things that would cleanse and purify wounds, etc. That's one reason vinegar in these days are touted to be great household cleanser.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 6, 2012 19:29:30 GMT -5
TS, please read the last chapter in Mark and you will see that Jesus told them that their "healing, etc" would serve as evidence that they were HIS servants. Again, when the first generation churches were completely slaughtered there would no longer be any one that had the power within them to give to someone else by the "laying on of the hands" this was the way a new servant of Jesus' was brought into servitutude to Him. The first generation church was slaughtered? Well, as war is I'm notr sure how they were murdered, but the fact that the powers that were in those ages didn't wantr Jesus followers to be allowed to live.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 19:31:26 GMT -5
That spin is as old as the hills. If that was true,why wouldn't Timothy already be aware of the bad water. The bible didn't say Timothy didn't already know this, however he was well awware that wine could intoxicate and perhaps in trying to be pure he would have thought he shouldn't touch it, much like people do today. Lin, that "Spin is as old as the hills" has saved lives in ages past when there were no other things that would cleanse and purify wounds, etc. That's one reason vinegar in these days are touted to be great household cleanser. All wine was not fermented. In proverbs it mentions about wine when it sparkles in the glass. I doubt the water that Jesus turned into wine was fermented, but yet it was better than any.
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Post by JO on Aug 6, 2012 19:48:39 GMT -5
Does the bible forbid the consumption of wine?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 20:00:50 GMT -5
Does the bible forbid the consumption of wine? No,but it does ridicule the drunkard.
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Post by ts on Aug 6, 2012 20:30:24 GMT -5
I think one must define what a worker is in order to answer the question. If we accept that a worker is just a fellow who is not married and preaches the doctrine of the meetings, accepted by the overseers but who may or may not be abusive and ruining the spiritual lives of the friends and workers, then the answer will be one thing. If we accept that a worker is one who cares for God's people and is willing to speak up against abuse even against the overseers, even though the overseers may use their power to alienate you from the friends, then the answer will be different. If a worker were abusive towards women for years and years but could cover up the abuses well, was he really a worker all those years? What is your definition? I think a worker can be defined in many ways. A worker is a pastor. One who stands up for the poor and the weak. One who is entrusted by God with caring for the souls of others. A worker is a minister of the gospel. While we all fall into the category of ministering and caring for others, I believe that a worker is a calling and a responsibility all its own. A worker is called by God, not man. Also, there are false workers. Those who have a form of Godliness but are ravening wolves. They are the ones who have "crept in unawares". And, indeed, many of the friends and workers are unaware of the false workers among them. A true worker will make a stand against the wolves among the sheep, like a true pastor/shepherd would. A true worker will face the danger and the ridicule to protect the sheep. He will speak the truth and take the persecution with joy for speaking the truth. This is a start, at least, of what a worker is and isn't. If a false worker is able to speak well in meeting and fool a lot of people with good deeds while hiding abuse, he ceased to be a worker when the deception started(if he ever was one to begin with).
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 6, 2012 20:33:53 GMT -5
I think a worker can be defined in many ways. A worker is a pastor. One who stands up for the poor and the weak. One who is entrusted by God with caring for the souls of others. A worker is a minister of the gospel. While we all fall into the category of ministering and caring for others, I believe that a worker is a calling and a responsibility all its own. A worker is called by God, not man. Also, there are false workers. Those who have a form of Godliness but are ravening wolves. They are the ones who have "crept in unawares". And, indeed, many of the friends and workers are unaware of the false workers among them. A true worker will make a stand against the wolves among the sheep, like a true pastor/shepherd would. A true worker will face the danger and the ridicule to protect the sheep. He will speak the truth and take the persecution with joy for speaking the truth. This is a start, at least, of what a worker is and isn't. If a false worker is able to speak well in meeting and fool a lot of people with good deeds while hiding abuse, he ceased to be a worker when the deception started(if he ever was one to begin with). As Reagan said "There you go again"
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