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Post by sharonw on Aug 1, 2012 22:17:38 GMT -5
I do have a question. Why do Christians fear their God? I don't understand why anyone would fear God. As I've tried to explain to Rat, the fear of the living God is NOT like fear of man or beast. Okay? Again fear of man or beast causes most people to want to avoid them, right? Okay Fear of the Living God is almost the opposite for we want to be with Him and we fear displeasing Him when He knows we already know better then what we end up doing. Something like that, ok? Actually, some people call it fear of God is having a healthy respect for Him.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 1, 2012 22:19:20 GMT -5
I don't think Christians who have a Christ-filled heart ARE superior, nor do they feel superior. They know who is superior though, but as you say if you're not a Christ- believer, then that comes off as the believer being superior....confusing, eh? Perhaps Christians are trying to really share Jesus and what He stands for and that causes non-believers to feel that the believer thinks they are better and I suppose in some twisted knowledge that may well feel that way, but is not intended that way. As someone wrote to me yesterday, that people who testify of Jesus before unbelievers DO stand the chance of appearing to be snobs, but then there are those occasional if not rare persons found in those we meet that are thirsty for the saving power of Jesus Christ. So how are me to set those things before others without appearing superior? It's really tough! It's kind of like Democrats trying to not come off as feeling superior to Republicans. It's difficult. It's not that we feel WE are superior. We know we're not. But the fact remains that Democratic ideals, values, beliefs, principles and practices are superior. Similar to Christians, it's difficult for Democrats to convey their equality with Republicans without erecting a false facade of humility in front of their clearly superior beliefs. ;D Thanks, Gene! I had not thought to liken it to politics!
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2012 22:26:49 GMT -5
I do have a question. Why do Christians fear their God? I don't understand why anyone would fear God. I have wondered the same thing. I don't fully understand the word "fear" in the context of fearing God. I think that is because I do not really understand how big and great He really is. That being said, I think in faith and with glimpses of Him in worship I more and more get a feeling of the fear of God. There are probably more aspects to the fear of God than I could tell or understand. I sorta look at it like this sometimes: If you were invited to go and speak to the President of the USA or the Queen of England would you approach them like you would any other person? Would you feel the same talking to them as you would any other person? I am guessing probably not. I believe that God created every atom and knows where they all are and has them numbered. As well He keeps up with all the galaxies that exist in every dark part of the skies that we can't even see with all our latest instruments. He can even keep up with every atom in those unseen(to us) galaxies...and all this is a little thing to Him. I think we are much more important to God than all those galaxies and every other part of His creation. I know that this does not necessarily explain the fear of God. But it is what I think about when I stand outside sometimes at night and look up and feel that God loves me and wants me as his child. I want to be obedient and know that He has to work a lot with me to make me more and more perfect and a place where His Holy Spirit can operate more freely. That is what He wants for everyone. God is a spirit. Angels are spirits. When angels appear there is fear associated with them at least some times. I think even an angel would be a considerable level up from a king or a judge. Somehow, I don't think it is too difficult to think of myself trembling in fear at such a meeting. And God does have wrath just like any dad would. If you are messing with the poor and weak and perverting judgment so that they are hurt, you are not acting in a way that fears the wrath of God. So in a sense it's not a fear but more like an anxiety? I might be a bit anxious to be meeting the President, but I definitely would be afraid to. Actually I would enjoy it. Fear, for me, is more for someone who could actually want to hurt me. I'm pretty sure there is nothing to fear from our source and I feel sad for those who do think it would harm you. In my estimation it would be like harming itself to harm anything in it's creation.
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2012 22:31:39 GMT -5
I do have a question. Why do Christians fear their God? I don't understand why anyone would fear God. The most common interpretation of the biblical term of "fear God" is to "have a sense of awe of God". God believers typically view God as infinitely big and small, which is a pretty awesome thought really. I would suggest that most Christians are not living in a state of terror with regard to God. Some do I suppose, particularly those who have bought into a legalistic style of Christianity. That group tends to feel that they have to live up to a certain standard, do enough proper things, tick off enough boxes, then they hope that the stern judging God will be nice to them and let them into heaven instead of whacking them down to the hot bad place. Awe I understand! Fear no. However, I do understand it would be fear if you believed there was something you could do to be condemned for eternity to torture. I know I used to be afraid of that. My birth family are like that. They are very afraid of not believing in God. They are going to believe just in case there is one. I think that is an interesting concept because if God is all knowing he would know that was their reason wouldn't he? I am glad most do not actually fear their God as you say.
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2012 22:35:51 GMT -5
I do have a question. Why do Christians fear their God? I don't understand why anyone would fear God. As I've tried to explain to Rat, the fear of the living God is NOT like fear of man or beast. Okay? Again fear of man or beast causes most people to want to avoid them, right? Okay Fear of the Living God is almost the opposite for we want to be with Him and we fear displeasing Him when He knows we already know better then what we end up doing. Something like that, ok? Actually, some people call it fear of God is having a healthy respect for Him. I guess I would have a healthy respect too for someone that was capable of damning me to torture for eternity. I would not like living, worrying about whether or not I was displeasing someone of that stature. I don't know how people who have the belief they could be damned to hell can live. I really don't. I'd be a nervous wreck, quite honestly.
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Post by ts on Aug 1, 2012 22:56:41 GMT -5
I have wondered the same thing. I don't fully understand the word "fear" in the context of fearing God. I think that is because I do not really understand how big and great He really is. That being said, I think in faith and with glimpses of Him in worship I more and more get a feeling of the fear of God. There are probably more aspects to the fear of God than I could tell or understand. I sorta look at it like this sometimes: If you were invited to go and speak to the President of the USA or the Queen of England would you approach them like you would any other person? Would you feel the same talking to them as you would any other person? I am guessing probably not. I believe that God created every atom and knows where they all are and has them numbered. As well He keeps up with all the galaxies that exist in every dark part of the skies that we can't even see with all our latest instruments. He can even keep up with every atom in those unseen(to us) galaxies...and all this is a little thing to Him. I think we are much more important to God than all those galaxies and every other part of His creation. I know that this does not necessarily explain the fear of God. But it is what I think about when I stand outside sometimes at night and look up and feel that God loves me and wants me as his child. I want to be obedient and know that He has to work a lot with me to make me more and more perfect and a place where His Holy Spirit can operate more freely. That is what He wants for everyone. God is a spirit. Angels are spirits. When angels appear there is fear associated with them at least some times. I think even an angel would be a considerable level up from a king or a judge. Somehow, I don't think it is too difficult to think of myself trembling in fear at such a meeting. And God does have wrath just like any dad would. If you are messing with the poor and weak and perverting judgment so that they are hurt, you are not acting in a way that fears the wrath of God. So in a sense it's not a fear but more like an anxiety? I might be a bit anxious to be meeting the President, but I definitely would be afraid to. Actually I would enjoy it. Fear, for me, is more for someone who could actually want to hurt me. I'm pretty sure there is nothing to fear from our source and I feel sad for those who do think it would harm you. In my estimation it would be like harming itself to harm anything in it's creation. What if you had really hurt a powerful judge and he called a meeting with you and all the law enforcement officers were around with the full force of the law against you with a clear cut case of guilt? Would you be afraid then? Then, with all the power and right on his side, he forgave you and set you free. I think the fear of God also has to do with how we use our freedom that He gave us through Jesus. Using our freedom carelessly is not showing a fear of God.
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 0:14:48 GMT -5
I have wondered the same thing. I don't fully understand the word "fear" in the context of fearing God. I think that is because I do not really understand how big and great He really is. So when you were talking about the inferiority of morals that were not based on the fear of god you really didn't understand whet you meant. There are probably more aspects to the fear of God than I could tell or understand. I sorta look at it like this sometimes: If you were invited to go and speak to the President of the USA or the Queen of England would you approach them like you would any other person? Would you feel the same talking to them as you would any other person? I am guessing probably not. And I am thinking that fear would not be the emotion that would spring to mind. He can even keep up with every atom in those unseen(to us) galaxies...and all this is a little thing to Him. I think we are much more important to God than all those galaxies and every other part of His creation. I wonder how that idea will sit with the other creations that live in other parts of the universe? Will they always feel like second fiddles? And I guess, since you don't really have a definition regarding the 'fear' of god that your comment about morals that are based on the fear of god being superior has little meaning. I know that this does not necessarily explain the fear of God. And God does have wrath just like any dad would.
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Post by ts on Aug 2, 2012 0:41:35 GMT -5
This is the whole thought. Not just a quote out of context.
And God does have wrath just like any dad would. If you are messing with the poor and weak and perverting judgment so that they are hurt, you are not acting in a way that fears the wrath of God.
A dad would certainly be angry if he saw his children being taken advantage of. Those who do take advantage of the poor and the weak are not fearing the wrath of God.
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 9:01:55 GMT -5
The most common interpretation of the biblical term of "fear God" is to "have a sense of awe of God". God believers typically view God as infinitely big and small, which is a pretty awesome thought really. I would suggest that the church is very aware of the motivating power of fear. And while this aspect is downplayed today it can be seen in its true colors in sermons like Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and others written by people like Whitefield, Webb, Spring, and others. Perhaps believers are not living in terror of the possibility of hell but I am guessing it is a reinforcement that is on their minds as much, is not more than the reinforcement of heaven. Even the descriptions of hell and associated punishments are explained in the bible in much greater detail than the attributes of heaven.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 2, 2012 9:12:29 GMT -5
I don't think the fear of God is a permanent thing. It says" the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" To me that is where our understanding of what God is begins. This fear that evolves into a love. It says "the devils both believe and tremble. I can't say I am fear God. Because I believe through prayer and experience I have learned to love Him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 9:26:01 GMT -5
I don't think the fear of God is a permanent thing. It says" the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" To me that is where our understanding of what God is begins. This fear that evolves into a love. It says "the devils both believe and tremble. I can't say I am fear God. Because I believe through prayer and experience I have learned to love Him. I'm with you there. I think John would agree when he says that perfect love casts out all fear. I don't think about hell, or worry about hell, or even worry about my failures. I'm focused on growing my love for God, and through that the Holy Spirit increases my joy and peace and eager expectation of someday going home to be with the Lord. That doesn't mean we don't reverence him as Lord of all, but our focus is on Abba, Father.
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Post by quizzer on Aug 2, 2012 10:37:35 GMT -5
The most common interpretation of the biblical term of "fear God" is to "have a sense of awe of God". God believers typically view God as infinitely big and small, which is a pretty awesome thought really. I would suggest that most Christians are not living in a state of terror with regard to God. Some do I suppose, particularly those who have bought into a legalistic style of Christianity. That group tends to feel that they have to live up to a certain standard, do enough proper things, tick off enough boxes, then they hope that the stern judging God will be nice to them and let them into heaven instead of whacking them down to the hot bad place. Awe I understand! Fear no. However, I do understand it would be fear if you believed there was something you could do to be condemned for eternity to torture. I know I used to be afraid of that. My birth family are like that. They are very afraid of not believing in God. They are going to believe just in case there is one. I think that is an interesting concept because if God is all knowing he would know that was their reason wouldn't he? I am glad most do not actually fear their God as you say. I don't know if the Bible had the correct English word when it was translated. In some verses, we have the word "trembling," so I'm guessing that "fear" was the best word for the early translators to use. However, the concept that translates the best is being "awe-struck" that you are in the presence of a being greater than you, beyond the best of your understanding.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 11:16:58 GMT -5
The most common interpretation of the biblical term of "fear God" is to "have a sense of awe of God". God believers typically view God as infinitely big and small, which is a pretty awesome thought really. I would suggest that the church is very aware of the motivating power of fear. And while this aspect is downplayed today it can be seen in its true colors in sermons like Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and others written by people like Whitefield, Webb, Spring, and others. Perhaps believers are not living in terror of the possibility of hell but I am guessing it is a reinforcement that is on their minds as much, is not more than the reinforcement of heaven. Even the descriptions of hell and associated punishments are explained in the bible in much greater detail than the attributes of heaven. Yes the church is aware of it and how it works on people, but I think you are behind the times. The fear factor was a defining feature of Christian believers and church doctrine up until the 1960's and has been on a decline ever since. The emergence of the Grace doctrine has gone a long way to getting rid of that fear weapon used by the churches. Even workers don't tell those stories anymore of the guy who almost professed at a gospel meeting and was killed on his way home that night. Playing the terror/fear card is spiritual abuse. It still happens, particularly among the more extreme fundamentalists, but it's going the way of the dodo bird.
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 11:54:33 GMT -5
This is the whole thought. Not just a quote out of context. And God does have wrath just like any dad would. If you are messing with the poor and weak and perverting judgment so that they are hurt, you are not acting in a way that fears the wrath of God. Could you show where this is the case? A child is tortured and dies as the hands of a criminal. How does the wrath of god show itself? In the book section of this message board a book is being discussed where a preacher/faith healer takes advantage of the trusting poor. Although convicted of crimes David Terrell continues on. How does the wrath of god show itself in this case? Of course most fathers would protect their children. This is true even for many animals. They protect their young. In light of this - do you have an example of god protecting any of the CSA victims mentioned on this message board? No, I guess not. But the world of operant behavior is maintained by its consequences. And the only consequences that are seen to modify the behavior are the sanctions applied by men. The people who take advantage of the weak and poor may or may not fear the wrath of god. Fearing or not fearing the wrath of god results in the same consequences. My moral code says not to take advantage of anyone. Not because I fear the wrath of some paranormal being but because I believe it is wrong.
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 12:14:00 GMT -5
What if you had really hurt a powerful judge and he called a meeting with you and all the law enforcement officers were around with the full force of the law against you with a clear cut case of guilt? Would you be afraid then? Why would you be afraid? If you had hurt the person you have to take responsibility for your actions. A rational person realizes there are consequences for their actions. Fear would enter the situation if I believed the judge was a psychopath with a history of committing immoral acts against those he was judging and those he sought to punish. That would be his right and his decision. It would be an act of compassion on the part of the judge. If you have this fear do you really have freedom? It is like telling someone they can do as they wish but if they do things you do not like you may kill them. Not much freedom if you fear being killed if you exercise it. Again, why do we fear this being? Are we not expecting a fair and true judgement? Or is this a case when 'fear" does not mean being afraid?
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 13:14:27 GMT -5
Yes the church is aware of it and how it works on people, but I think you are behind the times. You do? From the largest christian denomination in the world there is the act of contrition that still, in many places, contains the following prayer: O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended You and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend you, my God, who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of your grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life.and others like: O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Your Mercy.There may be a movement to soften the message but that is still the belief of christians. And the threat of eternal damnation is not something that is easily eliminated. I do not believe the doctrine has changed - only the marketing. But what do they believe? Only in it's obvious expression.
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Post by ts on Aug 2, 2012 16:31:01 GMT -5
Here is an excerpt from a book called "Stand Against the Wind" by Erwin Raphael McManus.
The Scriptures remind us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. Then what exactly does this mean? When we fear God, we fear nothing else. It is only in the fear of God that we find ourselves free form the fear of death, of failure, and all the other fears that bind us.
When the fear of God is absent from our lives, we become slaves to lesser fears, and your fears define the boundaries of your life. When you fear God, you are subject only to Him. You align yourself to love and truth. You are never afraid to love or forgive when you fear God. You are never afraid to do good when you fear God. You are never afraid to face the truth or speak the truth when you fear God. You live with a clam assurance that in all these things God finds great pleasure.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, for only iin this place are we forced to face ourselves and see ourselves for who we really are. When you are a follower of Jesus Christ, you are committed to follow the truth wherever it leads you. This fear of God frees you to risk, to fail, to dream, to attempt great things.
When you fear God, you understand that you have come to Him in a condition of sinfulness. You know God as not only a God of holiness but also a God of infinite compassion. You live with the knowledge of His grace. You bask in the promise that if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive you of all your sin and to cleans you from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:9).
It is only in the fear of God that we are truly free. We see God for who He really is. We see ourselves for who we really are. We understand the condition of the world in which we live. And we are enlightened to see a world - or should I say KINGDOM - that waits to come. Wisdom understand the heart of God. The woman of wisdom, the man who is wise, such people embrace that heart and live by it. Only here are we truly free."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 16:31:12 GMT -5
Yes the church is aware of it and how it works on people, but I think you are behind the times. You do? From the largest christian denomination in the world there is the act of contrition that still, in many places, contains the following prayer: O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended You and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend you, my God, who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of your grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life.and others like: O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Your Mercy.Nice cherry picking of statements written long ago when fear based religion was rampant. That proves my point. This is how it is said in our country today: "My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against You whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with Your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Our Saviour Jesus Christ, suffered and died for us. In His name, my God, have mercy." For those who still believe in eternal damnation (which is still widespread), the threat is greatly reduced if not eliminated with the Grace Doctrine, Salvation Assurance Doctrine and the elimination of works-based salvation. Beliefs are changing, and rapidly. Eternal damnation is changing to temporary damnation. Ask Edy or What if they changed their beliefs on that issue over the last decade or two. Christianity is in the process of undergoing a once-in-500 years paradigm shift. It is already much different from the Christianity of 150 years ago, and will continue to make massive changes. It's more than just windowdressing as you see it.
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Post by ts on Aug 2, 2012 16:51:23 GMT -5
CD, I suspect that the paradigm will shift even more. For some Christians the reality of living, seeing and walking in the spirit shifts their paradigm when they see the same healing and miracles that the disciples saw. Others are stuck in a paradigm of less faith as they spiritualize these miracles rather than experiencing their reality. When new teeth grow into place, crushed limbs come together instantly and the dead are raised right before your eyes, it sure changes the paradigm. Christians are not experiencing these things because of a lack of faith and perhaps a lack of fully seeking and giving everything over to God.
God wants us to dwell in the fulness of His promises. It is up to us how much He can give us.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 17:01:01 GMT -5
CD, I suspect that the paradigm will shift even more. For some Christians the reality of living, seeing and walking in the spirit shifts their paradigm when they see the same healing and miracles that the disciples saw. Others are stuck in a paradigm of less faith as they spiritualize these miracles rather than experiencing their reality. When new teeth grow into place, crushed limbs come together instantly and the dead are raised right before your eyes, it sure changes the paradigm. Christians are not experiencing these things because of a lack of faith and perhaps a lack of fully seeking and giving everything over to God. God wants us to dwell in the fulness of His promises. It is up to us how much He can give us. I'm quite hopeful for Christianity. I think it will emerge as a work of the heart while the abusive institutions either crumble to nothing or become true servants of the members instead of the rulers of souls. Rather than a religion of fear and bigotry, it will be a religion of love, goodwill, and peace. The crowds at Chick-Fil-A yesterday have me wondering though how long it will take to drag it out of a state of hatred and ignorance and into the light.
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 17:18:22 GMT -5
When we fear God, we fear nothing else. It is only in the fear of God that we find ourselves free form the fear of death, of failure, and all the other fears that bind us. So the fear of god is still the question but it is suggested that it replaces all other fears. This makes no sense. Why would this be the case? It sounds like fear is the only thing that you are aligned with. How did love sneak into this? I do not fear god and I am not afraid to love nor afraid to go good. This all seems to be someone's opinion without any way to prove its veracity. I don't fear god and am pretty open regarding the truth. It is the clam assurance that sold me!!! Your fear will set you free?!?Perhaps that is the source of the fear. So we now know what Erwin Raphael McManus thinks about the fear of god. What do you think? Explain how morals based on the fear of god are superior to morals not based on a fear of god.
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 17:45:39 GMT -5
Nice cherry picking of statements written long ago when fear based religion was rampant. That proves my point. How is that? That these prayers are still in use today in the majority of churches? That is one of the new versions. But it is not what the doctrine of the church is. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (CCC 1035). The threat is not reduced. This is still the doctrine of the church. I do not see any church changing its doctrine to reflect this. Do you have an example? Really? In his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, John Paul II wrote: "To a certain degree man does get lost; so too do preachers, catechists, teachers; and as a result, they no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell. And perhaps even those who listen to them have stopped being afraid of hell. In fact, people of our time have become insensitive to the Last Things" . Publications of the Pope are generally not considered 'Window Dressing'.
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Post by rational on Aug 2, 2012 17:50:14 GMT -5
Christians are not experiencing these things because of a lack of faith and perhaps a lack of fully seeking and giving everything over to God. I suspect that no one is experiencing these things for a much more prosaic reason.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 19:15:07 GMT -5
Nice cherry picking of statements written long ago when fear based religion was rampant. That proves my point. How is that? That these prayers are still in use today in the majority of churches? That is one of the new versions. But it is not what the doctrine of the church is. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (CCC 1035). The threat is not reduced. This is still the doctrine of the church. I do not see any church changing its doctrine to reflect this. Do you have an example? Really? In his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, John Paul II wrote: "To a certain degree man does get lost; so too do preachers, catechists, teachers; and as a result, they no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell. And perhaps even those who listen to them have stopped being afraid of hell. In fact, people of our time have become insensitive to the Last Things" . Publications of the Pope are generally not considered 'Window Dressing'. Yes, papal declarations are often window dressing. Catholics use birth control at approximately the proportion of the rest of society in spite of papal declarations. Published church doctrine is not always meaningful nor does it reflect what the Christians believe. It reflects what a small minority of officials believe. Have a good look at your Catholic example for disparities between what Catholics believe and practice vs what the church fathers promote. On some issues, the disparities are huge.....birth control being one of them. There are also similar disparities on issues of homosexuality, status of women and divorce and remarriage. Papal proclamations and church doctrine on these issues are essentially ineffective. Are Catholics running around scare of hell? Probably more than the average Protestant because there is a couple of generations who have had the fear of hell drilled into them at pre-school age. That doesn't leave a person easily. Change in churches' teachings typically start at the grassroots of the members. Then, the incidents of those teachings decline, then disappear. The last thing to go is the written doctrine. With the RCC, they typically don't change the written doctrine. That's why your analysis is decades behind the curve. As far as more information on the movement toward a belief of a temporary hell and then reconciliation with God, I am sure What and Edy would have more information on the status of that movement than myself. Temporary hell is the belief of Christian Universalism as well as some other groups such as the Unity Church and peripheral groups such as LDS. Other groups do not believe in eternal tormented hell, but annihilation such as Christadelphians and JW's.....and some atheists I presume. Influential Christian writers such as CS Lewis have held that hell is not a place of eternal torment, but simply a place of separation from God. That's a nice break from the terrorism of hell.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 2, 2012 20:22:39 GMT -5
CD, I suspect that the paradigm will shift even more. For some Christians the reality of living, seeing and walking in the spirit shifts their paradigm when they see the same healing and miracles that the disciples saw. Others are stuck in a paradigm of less faith as they spiritualize these miracles rather than experiencing their reality. When new teeth grow into place, crushed limbs come together instantly and the dead are raised right before your eyes, it sure changes the paradigm. Christians are not experiencing these things because of a lack of faith and perhaps a lack of fully seeking and giving everything over to God. God wants us to dwell in the fulness of His promises. It is up to us how much He can give us. The sad thing about these healing miracles you claim to be true is, they still have to die. Why would you want to be raised from the dead?
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Post by ts on Aug 2, 2012 20:24:24 GMT -5
How is that? That these prayers are still in use today in the majority of churches? That is one of the new versions. But it is not what the doctrine of the church is. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (CCC 1035). The threat is not reduced. This is still the doctrine of the church. I do not see any church changing its doctrine to reflect this. Do you have an example? Really? In his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, John Paul II wrote: "To a certain degree man does get lost; so too do preachers, catechists, teachers; and as a result, they no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell. And perhaps even those who listen to them have stopped being afraid of hell. In fact, people of our time have become insensitive to the Last Things" . Publications of the Pope are generally not considered 'Window Dressing'. Yes, papal declarations are often window dressing. Catholics use birth control at approximately the proportion of the rest of society in spite of papal declarations. Published church doctrine is not always meaningful nor does it reflect what the Christians believe. It reflects what a small minority of officials believe. Have a good look at your Catholic example for disparities between what Catholics believe and practice vs what the church fathers promote. On some issues, the disparities are huge.....birth control being one of them. There are also similar disparities on issues of homosexuality, status of women and divorce and remarriage. Papal proclamations and church doctrine on these issues are essentially ineffective. Are Catholics running around scare of hell? Probably more than the average Protestant because there is a couple of generations who have had the fear of hell drilled into them at pre-school age. That doesn't leave a person easily. Change in churches' teachings typically start at the grassroots of the members. Then, the incidents of those teachings decline, then disappear. The last thing to go is the written doctrine. With the RCC, they typically don't change the written doctrine. That's why your analysis is decades behind the curve. As far as more information on the movement toward a belief of a temporary hell and then reconciliation with God, I am sure What and Edy would have more information on the status of that movement than myself. Temporary hell is the belief of Christian Universalism as well as some other groups such as the Unity Church and peripheral groups such as LDS. Other groups do not believe in eternal tormented hell, but annihilation such as Christadelphians and JW's.....and some atheists I presume. Influential Christian writers such as CS Lewis have held that hell is not a place of eternal torment, but simply a place of separation from God. That's a nice break from the terrorism of hell. How much influence does CS Lewis have on hell? Are you saying something like our perception is what dictates our surroundings, what dictates who God is and dictates what hell and Satan is? Or, we make our own reality?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 2, 2012 20:26:53 GMT -5
Here is an excerpt from a book called "Stand Against the Wind" by Erwin Raphael McManus. The Scriptures remind us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. Then what exactly does this mean? When we fear God, we fear nothing else. It is only in the fear of God that we find ourselves free form the fear of death, of failure, and all the other fears that bind us. When the fear of God is absent from our lives, we become slaves to lesser fears, and your fears define the boundaries of your life. When you fear God, you are subject only to Him. You align yourself to love and truth. You are never afraid to love or forgive when you fear God. You are never afraid to do good when you fear God. You are never afraid to face the truth or speak the truth when you fear God. You live with a clam assurance that in all these things God finds great pleasure. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, for only iin this place are we forced to face ourselves and see ourselves for who we really are. When you are a follower of Jesus Christ, you are committed to follow the truth wherever it leads you. This fear of God frees you to risk, to fail, to dream, to attempt great things. When you fear God, you understand that you have come to Him in a condition of sinfulness. You know God as not only a God of holiness but also a God of infinite compassion. You live with the knowledge of His grace. You bask in the promise that if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive you of all your sin and to cleans you from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:9). It is only in the fear of God that we are truly free. We see God for who He really is. We see ourselves for who we really are. We understand the condition of the world in which we live. And we are enlightened to see a world - or should I say KINGDOM - that waits to come. Wisdom understand the heart of God. The woman of wisdom, the man who is wise, such people embrace that heart and live by it. Only here are we truly free." The one man given the talents said he feared an unfair master.Because of this he hid his talent. His master said he would judge him out of his own mouth. I am afraid many have very little understanding of what God is like.
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Post by ts on Aug 2, 2012 20:29:46 GMT -5
CD, I suspect that the paradigm will shift even more. For some Christians the reality of living, seeing and walking in the spirit shifts their paradigm when they see the same healing and miracles that the disciples saw. Others are stuck in a paradigm of less faith as they spiritualize these miracles rather than experiencing their reality. When new teeth grow into place, crushed limbs come together instantly and the dead are raised right before your eyes, it sure changes the paradigm. Christians are not experiencing these things because of a lack of faith and perhaps a lack of fully seeking and giving everything over to God. God wants us to dwell in the fulness of His promises. It is up to us how much He can give us. The sad thing about these healing miracles you claim to be true is, they still have to die. Why would you want to be raised from the dead? Not my claim. These signs will follow Jesus' disciples. there are probably numerable reasons why one would want or need to be raised from the dead. If one has not fulfilled what they are supposed to on this earth, they might appreciate being raised from the dead. The fact is, if you believe the scriptures at all you will have to admit that quite a few people were raised from the dead. People are still being raised from the dead even today.
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