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Post by rational on Jul 31, 2012 19:18:54 GMT -5
...and both are without the spirit of Christ in their posts. Could you point out a post I made where this is true? And then point out one you made that demonstrates it? This is a diversion. I would discuss it but then Ken would accuse me of going on a rabbit chase or whatever he calls it. So: Remember the discussion - What makes morals based on the fear of god superior to morals not based on the fear of god?
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Post by rational on Jul 31, 2012 19:36:13 GMT -5
There are those who, like myself, do not appreciate being lied to and abused by those who are given care and authority over their souls as pastors in God's name. To whom did you give authority over your soul? Besides, calling it your soul is kind of a slap in the face of Ezekiel 18:4. But then that is the same chapter that says The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son after going down the path of having Adam's iniquity spread to all of his offspring.
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Post by stargazer on Jul 31, 2012 20:05:45 GMT -5
I've found Lin's postings to be practical and insightful. He doesn't get carried away with the hystrionics of emotion that detract from many posts here, rendering them of little merit. Disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby (even though, no doubt, he always is). I actually think such an accusation is foolish. Also, I generally find Rats dissection of various posters' wording to be spot on. ...and both are without the spirit of Christ in their posts. Their insights are well suited for a court of law in the land. That is the equivalent of righteousness in the worker ranks. Linford and Rational express the worker righteousness very well. It is flawless, really. If that is what they are satisfied with, that is fine. I get it thanks! Calm discussion or refutation of your blather constitutes lack of the spirit of Christ. TS you embarass yourself. Ken, would you say that TS is ducking into a rabbit hole?
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2012 20:40:41 GMT -5
I would rather do things because it makes my heart sing than do things because my heart is afraid of the repercussions. I am not a Christian but I am quite capable of making moral, loving decisions. It is rather misguided to believe that I do not because I am not a Christian. Christians are not superior. They are simply another way to come to God. I seems like those who worship Jesus think that they are better than anyone else. I really think that is misguided.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 31, 2012 21:31:02 GMT -5
Well, actually I was trying to get TS to see that Rat does not measure with the same yardstick the other 3 do. But since you profess satisfaction with your own experiences, that is fine with me.....but to what profit to someone else? Can we just sit as we've done for umpteen and twice that many years and let the things in the workership/friendship continue to mount up until that which satisfies you is gone because there is NO GOOD left in it any more? Then what shall you find to satisfy you, Lin.....that which you 3 men find satisfying has hidden the dark fruits of evil for many many years. And yes, I'll admit that not all persons within the work OR the friends are evil are actually knowledgeable about those dark fruits within their fellowship. However, I just saw some evidence recently given by the guilty person's own handwriting of some dark fruits within this person's own power that I would have stood strong against any one else claiming such things about that person in the workership and Yes, it was an overseer and not LW.....My stomach has not gotten settled since and a sour taste is in my mouth. What was it? I'm not ready to share other then to say that people have disappointed me all through my life and I thought maybe just maybe that after I got older that I would have enough sensibility to "judge" my friends better then I did as a child......and am handed such things as a self-confess dark fruits? I'm sorry Lin, but I often get a bit p-owed when I find people hanging onto their "satisfaction" so tight that they cannot see that Satan is close by. I've found Lin's postings to be practical and insightful. He doesn't get carried away with the hystrionics of emotion that detract from many posts here, rendering them of little merit. Disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby (even though, no doubt, he always is). I actually think such an accusation is foolish. Also, I generally find Rats dissection of various posters' wording to be spot on. Again, not reading per what was really posted...there was NO comment about "disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby". Stargazer, again I'll try to make it more clear about what I was talking about some people's professed "satisfaction about something that has satisfied them to the point that they DO NOT see or actually they DON"T WANT to see the dark fruits hidden behind or within that which is satisfying them...THIS is what I'm alluding to that the danger is Satan is near by. Any time a "good" thing hides or covers up a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing is going to put the reputation of the "good" thing mighty low. So if people cling real hard to what satisfies them, but at the same time there are some fruits of darkness behind or within that satisfying thing, then there is blindness on the part of the person who finds such "complete satisfaction" in it. NOW IS that any clearer?
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Post by sharonw on Jul 31, 2012 21:35:36 GMT -5
...and both are without the spirit of Christ in their posts. Could you point out a post I made where this is true? And then point out one you made that demonstrates it? This is a diversion. I would discuss it but then Ken would accuse me of going on a rabbit chase or whatever he calls it. So: Remember the discussion - What makes morals based on the fear of god superior to morals not based on the fear of god?[/quote] Actually, Rat, the answer is that some of us DO believe that there is a God, in whom all man kind should fear....so yes, I suppose if you don't believe in a God then you are not going to feel fear of Him.
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Post by emy on Jul 31, 2012 22:05:49 GMT -5
Again, not reading per what was really posted...there was NO comment about "disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby". Stargazer, again I'll try to make it more clear about what I was talking about some people's professed "satisfaction about something that has satisfied them to the point that they DO NOT see or actually they DON"T WANT to see the dark fruits hidden behind or within that which is satisfying them...THIS is what I'm alluding to that the danger is Satan is near by. Any time a "good" thing hides or covers up a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing is going to put the reputation of the "good" thing mighty low.So if people cling real hard to what satisfies them, but at the same time there are some fruits of darkness behind or within that satisfying thing, then there is blindness on the part of the person who finds such "complete satisfaction" in it. NOW IS that any clearer? "My life is hid with Christ in God...." Col. 3:3
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Post by rational on Aug 1, 2012 1:34:52 GMT -5
Actually, Rat, the answer is that some of us DO believe that there is a God, in whom all man kind should fear....so yes, I suppose if you don't believe in a God then you are not going to feel fear of Him. Actually Sharon, the question is why morals based on fear are superior to morals not based on fear. The belief is a supreme being is not the question. From your post, it seems you believe in a god that you fear and one that you believe all mankind should fear. I assume that you believe this is the source of your moral code as well. You are right - I do not believe in god and do not not have a moral code based on fear. The claim was made that morals based on fear were superior to morals not based on fear. Why that might be so is the question.
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Post by stargazer on Aug 1, 2012 10:53:42 GMT -5
I've found Lin's postings to be practical and insightful. He doesn't get carried away with the hystrionics of emotion that detract from many posts here, rendering them of little merit. Disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby (even though, no doubt, he always is). I actually think such an accusation is foolish. Also, I generally find Rats dissection of various posters' wording to be spot on. Again, not reading per what was really posted...there was NO comment about "disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby". Stargazer, again I'll try to make it more clear about what I was talking about some people's professed "satisfaction about something that has satisfied them to the point that they DO NOT see or actually they DON"T WANT to see the dark fruits hidden behind or within that which is satisfying them...THIS is what I'm alluding to that the danger is Satan is near by. Any time a "good" thing hides or covers up a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing is going to put the reputation of the "good" thing mighty low. So if people cling real hard to what satisfies them, but at the same time there are some fruits of darkness behind or within that satisfying thing, then there is blindness on the part of the person who finds such "complete satisfaction" in it. NOW IS that any clearer? Not particularly. It seems to mean that the 3 individuals, (or is it two plus the rat?) who voice opinions or refute your statements are oblivious to "dark fruits", whatever those are. Maybe if you asked them rather than accuse them, your comments would draw less flak. I haven't noticed that this infamous trio deny factual matters and I seriously doubt that you have the kind of first hand information which would substantiate that they are satisfied with wrongs. But, of course, I don't know what comprises the chatter circle which leads to your comments. Perhaps, just for starters, you could provide verification that Lin does not see "dark fruit".
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Post by ts on Aug 1, 2012 12:15:31 GMT -5
Again, not reading per what was really posted...there was NO comment about "disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby". Stargazer, again I'll try to make it more clear about what I was talking about some people's professed "satisfaction about something that has satisfied them to the point that they DO NOT see or actually they DON"T WANT to see the dark fruits hidden behind or within that which is satisfying them...THIS is what I'm alluding to that the danger is Satan is near by. Any time a "good" thing hides or covers up a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing is going to put the reputation of the "good" thing mighty low.So if people cling real hard to what satisfies them, but at the same time there are some fruits of darkness behind or within that satisfying thing, then there is blindness on the part of the person who finds such "complete satisfaction" in it. NOW IS that any clearer? "My life is hid with Christ in God...." Col. 3:3 Isn't that verse talking about our protection being in Jesus? In other words, do you think that Paul was advocating doing dark and immoral things in the name of God in the ministry and covering those things up in the name of Christ? Further, do you think that workers who do immoral things or help hide immorality in the work have truly set their affections on thins above and not on things on the earth?(Col 3:2) Are these men dead?(Col 3:3) Are their members mortified?(Col 3:5) Is it right for people to do like Paul and warn of the wrath of God coming on the children of disobedience for immoral things expressed in vs 5? Vs 7 is a past tense: "...In the which ye also walked sometime, when ye lived in them." These are such base things that are continuing in the work and the workers are covering them up and still calling themselves workers. The friends are still calling them workers. I have got no problem with putting things in the past and living for Christ. But what the workers are doing is the equivalent of Paul "slipping up" and going back to his old ways and murdering another few followers of Christ from time to time while preaching good sermons about mercy and kindness. And when the families of the deceased protest he and Timothy excommunicate them for not being forgiving.
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Post by emy on Aug 1, 2012 14:12:31 GMT -5
"My life is hid with Christ in God...." Col. 3:3 Isn't that verse talking about our protection being in Jesus? In other words, do you think that Paul was advocating doing dark and immoral things in the name of God in the ministry and covering those things up in the name of Christ? Further, do you think that workers who do immoral things or help hide immorality in the work have truly set their affections on thins above and not on things on the earth?(Col 3:2) Are these men dead?(Col 3:3) Are their members mortified?(Col 3:5) Is it right for people to do like Paul and warn of the wrath of God coming on the children of disobedience for immoral things expressed in vs 5? Vs 7 is a past tense: "...In the which ye also walked sometime, when ye lived in them." These are such base things that are continuing in the work and the workers are covering them up and still calling themselves workers. The friends are still calling them workers. I have got no problem with putting things in the past and living for Christ. But what the workers are doing is the equivalent of Paul "slipping up" and going back to his old ways and murdering another few followers of Christ from time to time while preaching good sermons about mercy and kindness. And when the families of the deceased protest he and Timothy excommunicate them for not being forgiving. I was not making any comparison. I was reacting to Sharon's unilateral statement: Any time a "good" thing hides or covers up a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing is going to put the reputation of the "good" thing mighty low.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2012 14:46:37 GMT -5
Actually, Rat, the answer is that some of us DO believe that there is a God, in whom all man kind should fear....so yes, I suppose if you don't believe in a God then you are not going to feel fear of Him. Actually Sharon, the question is why morals based on fear are superior to morals not based on fear. The belief is a supreme being is not the question. From your post, it seems you believe in a god that you fear and one that you believe all mankind should fear. I assume that you believe this is the source of your moral code as well. You are right - I do not believe in god and do not not have a moral code based on fear. The claim was made that morals based on fear were superior to morals not based on fear. Why that might be so is the question. You've asked sharonw for clarification several times, but I don't see that you've ever received an answer. I'm curious myself. To me, although I believe that keeping God's commandment to love our neighbor out of love/reverence/respect for God is superior from a salvation standpoint, I don't see that an atheist's desire to treat his fellowman with kindness due to his personal conviction that he should do so would be any lesser a moral code as it relates to his conduct. If we love our fellowman, as an atheist or a christian, we have met the 2nd most important requirement of the law, but the atheist would be failing the most important requirement according to a God he doesn't believe in. However, that does not render his moral code less effective as it relates to others. Christians might judge the eternal outcome, but his fellowman would appreciate his conduct either way. At least, that's how I see it...but I'm not the one who posited the thesis.
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Post by rational on Aug 1, 2012 15:44:21 GMT -5
You've asked sharonw for clarification several times, but I don't see that you've ever received an answer. I'm curious myself. It was TS that made the statement. And several have picked up on it (Sharon and ken to name a couple) and answered totally different questions and even accused me of leading in a rabbit chase. Someone, perhaps Ken, even suggested that there was a different definition for fear that might have come into play. The fact is that TS has not answered question and has bobbed and weaved all over the map. But I understand it is summer time and he is probably busy with one task or another so I can wait until he responds.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 1, 2012 16:54:40 GMT -5
I would rather do things because it makes my heart sing than do things because my heart is afraid of the repercussions. I am not a Christian but I am quite capable of making moral, loving decisions. It is rather misguided to believe that I do not because I am not a Christian. Christians are not superior. They are simply another way to come to God. I seems like those who worship Jesus think that they are better than anyone else. I really think that is misguided. I don't think Christians who have a Christ-filled heart ARE superior, nor do they feel superior. They know who is superior though, but as you say if you're not a Christ- believer, then that comes off as the believer being superior....confusing, eh? Perhaps Christians are trying to really share Jesus and what He stands for and that causes non-believers to feel that the believer thinks they are better and I suppose in some twisted knowledge that may well feel that way, but is not intended that way. As someone wrote to me yesterday, that people who testify of Jesus before unbelievers DO stand the chance of appearing to be snobs, but then there are those occasional if not rare persons found in those we meet that are thirsty for the saving power of Jesus Christ. So how are me to set those things before others without appearing superior? It's really tough!
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Post by sharonw on Aug 1, 2012 16:59:36 GMT -5
Again, not reading per what was really posted...there was NO comment about "disagreeing with another's moods and emotions is not necessarily evidence that Satan is nearby". Stargazer, again I'll try to make it more clear about what I was talking about some people's professed "satisfaction about something that has satisfied them to the point that they DO NOT see or actually they DON"T WANT to see the dark fruits hidden behind or within that which is satisfying them...THIS is what I'm alluding to that the danger is Satan is near by. Any time a "good" thing hides or covers up a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing is going to put the reputation of the "good" thing mighty low. So if people cling real hard to what satisfies them, but at the same time there are some fruits of darkness behind or within that satisfying thing, then there is blindness on the part of the person who finds such "complete satisfaction" in it. NOW IS that any clearer? Not particularly. It seems to mean that the 3 individuals, (or is it two plus the rat?) who voice opinions or refute your statements are oblivious to "dark fruits", whatever those are. Maybe if you asked them rather than accuse them, your comments would draw less flak. I haven't noticed that this infamous trio deny factual matters and I seriously doubt that you have the kind of first hand information which would substantiate that they are satisfied with wrongs. But, of course, I don't know what comprises the chatter circle which leads to your comments. Perhaps, just for starters, you could provide verification that Lin does not see "dark fruit". Stargazer, you have interpreted my whole issue as me being unreceptive to the constant criticisms by some people. THAT is NOT what I said, NOR what I mean. You seem purposefully to drag those things into it, though, so I won't try any further! Thank you!
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Post by sharonw on Aug 1, 2012 17:07:21 GMT -5
Actually Sharon, the question is why morals based on fear are superior to morals not based on fear. The belief is a supreme being is not the question. From your post, it seems you believe in a god that you fear and one that you believe all mankind should fear. I assume that you believe this is the source of your moral code as well. You are right - I do not believe in god and do not not have a moral code based on fear. The claim was made that morals based on fear were superior to morals not based on fear. Why that might be so is the question. You've asked sharonw for clarification several times, but I don't see that you've ever received an answer. I'm curious myself. To me, although I believe that keeping God's commandment to love our neighbor out of love/reverence/respect for God is superior from a salvation standpoint, I don't see that an atheist's desire to treat his fellowman with kindness due to his personal conviction that he should do so would be any lesser a moral code as it relates to his conduct. If we love our fellowman, as an atheist or a christian, we have met the 2nd most important requirement of the law, but the atheist would be failing the most important requirement according to a God he doesn't believe in. However, that does not render his moral code less effective as it relates to others. Christians might judge the eternal outcome, but his fellowman would appreciate his conduct either way. At least, that's how I see it...but I'm not the one who posited the thesis. HBerry, I've tried to answer Rat's question....but as he is not a believer then it is a really hard thing to tell him why it is best to fear the living God......He assumes that fearing our living God is equivalent to "fearing" something or someone....but that is not what fearing the living God means and as I'll say it again, because Rat does not believe in a living God nor a God in any form, then it is impossible for him to understand. You can try all you want to to tell him what it means to fear our living God but I doubt very seriously that he will ever understand, so it is really a futile effort. Hberry, one of the overseers that I do not like, did say this at a conv. and it is worthwhile to note.... He said we can WILL ourselves to go to all the mtgs and all the convs. we want to and we CAN WILL ourselves to live exactly what we hear at those palces, BUT it won't do us one bit of good to WILL to do those good things, for we cannot put God into debt to us. We do those things simply because we FEAR and LOVE our living God.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 1, 2012 17:09:32 GMT -5
Isn't that verse talking about our protection being in Jesus? In other words, do you think that Paul was advocating doing dark and immoral things in the name of God in the ministry and covering those things up in the name of Christ? Further, do you think that workers who do immoral things or help hide immorality in the work have truly set their affections on thins above and not on things on the earth?(Col 3:2) Are these men dead?(Col 3:3) Are their members mortified?(Col 3:5) Is it right for people to do like Paul and warn of the wrath of God coming on the children of disobedience for immoral things expressed in vs 5? Vs 7 is a past tense: "...In the which ye also walked sometime, when ye lived in them." These are such base things that are continuing in the work and the workers are covering them up and still calling themselves workers. The friends are still calling them workers. I have got no problem with putting things in the past and living for Christ. But what the workers are doing is the equivalent of Paul "slipping up" and going back to his old ways and murdering another few followers of Christ from time to time while preaching good sermons about mercy and kindness. And when the families of the deceased protest he and Timothy excommunicate them for not being forgiving. I was not making any comparison. I was reacting to Sharon's unilateral statement: Any time a "good" thing hides or covers up a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing is going to put the reputation of the "good" thing mighty low.Why REACT about or against what I said, Emy! Were you not taught in your earliest years to "be careful who you pick for your friends?" The reason being your reputation will be their reputation...otherwords you could sully your own reputation by the company you keep. GET IT?
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Post by rational on Aug 1, 2012 17:45:51 GMT -5
HBerry, I've tried to answer Rat's question....but as he is not a believer then it is a really hard thing to tell him why it is best to fear the living God. This is not the question. Sharon, the question is why morals based on fear are superior to morals not based on fear. That was the statement made. The belief is a supreme being is not the question. If you are using a different meaning for 'fear' perhaps it would be best to explain and avoid the confusion. What definition of fear was Jesus using when he said: Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.That sounds like a pretty standard meaning of fear. Someone of whom you should be afraid. I don't believe in fairies either but if you said they sparkled I would know what you meant. And I know the meaning of fear. I do understand. You fear god because if you disobey he will damn you for eternity. If you believe in god, a soul, heaven, hell, and the rest of it that is certainly something to fear. Now there is s salesman sticking to the marketing message and selling it hard!
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 1, 2012 18:59:44 GMT -5
So you can not offer an example nor an explanation of this not say that you have any personal knowledge of a worker flying off, without the F&W knowledge, for a sexual encounter. This is no surprise. I saw a post where he named two people. Can't find it anymore, so I guess he either removed it himself or got hit by the mod squad. SG You may of remembered my mentionong 2 overseers traveling with female companions CS and TW. I suppose in the world thats quite acceptable but for one upholding the F&Ws fellowship it indicates a disregard for appearance of evil. ken
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Post by Gene on Aug 1, 2012 19:15:41 GMT -5
I would rather do things because it makes my heart sing than do things because my heart is afraid of the repercussions. I am not a Christian but I am quite capable of making moral, loving decisions. It is rather misguided to believe that I do not because I am not a Christian. Christians are not superior. They are simply another way to come to God. I seems like those who worship Jesus think that they are better than anyone else. I really think that is misguided. I don't think Christians who have a Christ-filled heart ARE superior, nor do they feel superior. They know who is superior though, but as you say if you're not a Christ- believer, then that comes off as the believer being superior....confusing, eh? Perhaps Christians are trying to really share Jesus and what He stands for and that causes non-believers to feel that the believer thinks they are better and I suppose in some twisted knowledge that may well feel that way, but is not intended that way. As someone wrote to me yesterday, that people who testify of Jesus before unbelievers DO stand the chance of appearing to be snobs, but then there are those occasional if not rare persons found in those we meet that are thirsty for the saving power of Jesus Christ. So how are me to set those things before others without appearing superior? It's really tough! It's kind of like Democrats trying to not come off as feeling superior to Republicans. It's difficult. It's not that we feel WE are superior. We know we're not. But the fact remains that Democratic ideals, values, beliefs, principles and practices are superior. Similar to Christians, it's difficult for Democrats to convey their equality with Republicans without erecting a false facade of humility in front of their clearly superior beliefs. ;D
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 1, 2012 19:17:49 GMT -5
As a child growing up in some family setting. What was the moral code or authority in your home. You continue to ask for a choice of why is one over the other. why morals based on fear are superior to morals not based on fear.One has limited results the other unlimited. Pleasing ones parent I think is very childs desire and following that in conduct leads to a life without regretsin regards to being an obedient and diligent child. On the otherhand having only what ever feels right that day could leave one with regrets for the the rest of ones life for conduct that was acceptable that day but perhaps wrong the next day. ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 1, 2012 19:20:38 GMT -5
I don't think Christians who have a Christ-filled heart ARE superior, nor do they feel superior. They know who is superior though, but as you say if you're not a Christ- believer, then that comes off as the believer being superior....confusing, eh? Perhaps Christians are trying to really share Jesus and what He stands for and that causes non-believers to feel that the believer thinks they are better and I suppose in some twisted knowledge that may well feel that way, but is not intended that way. As someone wrote to me yesterday, that people who testify of Jesus before unbelievers DO stand the chance of appearing to be snobs, but then there are those occasional if not rare persons found in those we meet that are thirsty for the saving power of Jesus Christ. So how are me to set those things before others without appearing superior? It's really tough! It's kind of like Democrats trying to not come off as feeling superior to Republicans. It's difficult. It's not that we feel WE are superior. We know we're not. But the fact remains that Democratic ideals, values, beliefs, principles and practices are superior. Similar to Christians, it's difficult for Democrats to convey their equality with Republicans without erecting a false facade of humility in front of their clearly superior beliefs. ;D Love it ;Dken
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Post by Christopher J. on Aug 1, 2012 19:37:23 GMT -5
I don't think Christians who have a Christ-filled heart ARE superior, nor do they feel superior. They know who is superior though, but as you say if you're not a Christ- believer, then that comes off as the believer being superior....confusing, eh? Perhaps Christians are trying to really share Jesus and what He stands for and that causes non-believers to feel that the believer thinks they are better and I suppose in some twisted knowledge that may well feel that way, but is not intended that way. As someone wrote to me yesterday, that people who testify of Jesus before unbelievers DO stand the chance of appearing to be snobs, but then there are those occasional if not rare persons found in those we meet that are thirsty for the saving power of Jesus Christ. So how are me to set those things before others without appearing superior? It's really tough! It's kind of like Democrats trying to not come off as feeling superior to Republicans. It's difficult. It's not that we feel WE are superior. We know we're not. But the fact remains that Democratic ideals, values, beliefs, principles and practices are superior. Similar to Christians, it's difficult for Democrats to convey their equality with Republicans without erecting a false facade of humility in front of their clearly superior beliefs. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2012 21:12:29 GMT -5
I would rather do things because it makes my heart sing than do things because my heart is afraid of the repercussions. I am not a Christian but I am quite capable of making moral, loving decisions. It is rather misguided to believe that I do not because I am not a Christian. Christians are not superior. They are simply another way to come to God. I seems like those who worship Jesus think that they are better than anyone else. I really think that is misguided. I don't think Christians who have a Christ-filled heart ARE superior, nor do they feel superior. They know who is superior though, but as you say if you're not a Christ- believer, then that comes off as the believer being superior....confusing, eh? Perhaps Christians are trying to really share Jesus and what He stands for and that causes non-believers to feel that the believer thinks they are better and I suppose in some twisted knowledge that may well feel that way, but is not intended that way. As someone wrote to me yesterday, that people who testify of Jesus before unbelievers DO stand the chance of appearing to be snobs, but then there are those occasional if not rare persons found in those we meet that are thirsty for the saving power of Jesus Christ. So how are me to set those things before others without appearing superior? It's really tough! Yes, I can certainly see the dilemma and I appreciate it. Thank you Sharon for your explaining how it is for you. I guess it's hard to understand those who do not put too much concern in things that concern Christians. I trust in God and don't think there is anything that needs to be done to be 'okay'. Most religions believe there are things that God wants or else they are doomed. I don't see it that way, so I don't see the need to try and convert anyone to a certain belief because I think whatever you are doing is going to be just fine anyway. So when my sisters try to 'save' me I just don't get it really. I do understand it is serious stuff for them though so I do try to just be respectful while declining their way of thinking. They do come across as though they know what is best for me though. But as you pointed out, it is hard not too even if that is not what is intended.
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2012 21:15:23 GMT -5
I do have a question. Why do Christians fear their God? I don't understand why anyone would fear God.
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Post by ts on Aug 1, 2012 22:08:13 GMT -5
I do have a question. Why do Christians fear their God? I don't understand why anyone would fear God. I have wondered the same thing. I don't fully understand the word "fear" in the context of fearing God. I think that is because I do not really understand how big and great He really is. That being said, I think in faith and with glimpses of Him in worship I more and more get a feeling of the fear of God. There are probably more aspects to the fear of God than I could tell or understand. I sorta look at it like this sometimes: If you were invited to go and speak to the President of the USA or the Queen of England would you approach them like you would any other person? Would you feel the same talking to them as you would any other person? I am guessing probably not. I believe that God created every atom and knows where they all are and has them numbered. As well He keeps up with all the galaxies that exist in every dark part of the skies that we can't even see with all our latest instruments. He can even keep up with every atom in those unseen(to us) galaxies...and all this is a little thing to Him. I think we are much more important to God than all those galaxies and every other part of His creation. I know that this does not necessarily explain the fear of God. But it is what I think about when I stand outside sometimes at night and look up and feel that God loves me and wants me as his child. I want to be obedient and know that He has to work a lot with me to make me more and more perfect and a place where His Holy Spirit can operate more freely. That is what He wants for everyone. God is a spirit. Angels are spirits. When angels appear there is fear associated with them at least some times. I think even an angel would be a considerable level up from a king or a judge. Somehow, I don't think it is too difficult to think of myself trembling in fear at such a meeting. And God does have wrath just like any dad would. If you are messing with the poor and weak and perverting judgment so that they are hurt, you are not acting in a way that fears the wrath of God.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 1, 2012 22:09:18 GMT -5
HBerry, I've tried to answer Rat's question....but as he is not a believer then it is a really hard thing to tell him why it is best to fear the living God. This is not the question. Sharon, the question is why morals based on fear are superior to morals not based on fear. That was the statement made. The belief is a supreme being is not the question. If you are using a different meaning for 'fear' perhaps it would be best to explain and avoid the confusion. What definition of fear was Jesus using when he said: Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.That sounds like a pretty standard meaning of fear. Someone of whom you should be afraid. I don't believe in fairies either but if you said they sparkled I would know what you meant. And I know the meaning of fear. I do understand. You fear god because if you disobey he will damn you for eternity. If you believe in god, a soul, heaven, hell, and the rest of it that is certainly something to fear. Now there is s salesman sticking to the marketing message and selling it hard! Rat, I believe that "fear" of God is much different from fear of things and people....fear of God is supposed to be a healthy respect, but fear of man and things is not the same.....it isn't healthy to be afraid of man or beast, but it is healthy to not trust them and just keep one's self in a safe place or thing.......whereas fearing God does not make a person not want to be with Him, actually it is the very opposite affect perhaps is the proper terminology....the fear we have of the living God is that WE ourselves will screw up and not foolow His will for our lives. Now IF you can understand the difference in the fears so spoken of, the maybe you can understand, the difference that it makes in regard to morals and it isn't really that fearing God makes morals best, but it means that fearing God helps us to keep our morals and to improve them. I don't know what makes atheists morals, outside of their parents teachings, so the superiority of believers' morals is not true to my way of thinking, but may not be to yours.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2012 22:12:41 GMT -5
I do have a question. Why do Christians fear their God? I don't understand why anyone would fear God. The most common interpretation of the biblical term of "fear God" is to "have a sense of awe of God". God believers typically view God as infinitely big and small, which is a pretty awesome thought really. I would suggest that most Christians are not living in a state of terror with regard to God. Some do I suppose, particularly those who have bought into a legalistic style of Christianity. That group tends to feel that they have to live up to a certain standard, do enough proper things, tick off enough boxes, then they hope that the stern judging God will be nice to them and let them into heaven instead of whacking them down to the hot bad place.
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