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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Jun 16, 2012 2:41:57 GMT -5
Yes, excellent words JO - empathic and wise.
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Post by sharonw on Jun 16, 2012 11:02:51 GMT -5
Excellent post JO. It should be copied and sent around to every worker, elder and concerned friend that we know. Graham Thompson's sermon should likewise be forwarded to as many people as possible. Its message must go far and wide. The days of cover up, complacency and moral turbidity must end today. Please forward Graham Thompson's sermon. Also join WINGS Facebook page and simply click on "Like" where the sermon was posted, your FB friends will see your "Like", and some will read the sermon. You may be surprised that many people will get access to the sermon that way. I find it depressing and sad that there seems to be yet some within the fellowship who are holding to the status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail, they are in the place of God to some of these folks. Those seem to be those who thought Graham's sermon was out of place.... WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO WAKE UP THESE PEOPLE? Do they no understand that humans can fail? That workers are being worshipped into being something that they can never be? Thanks, JO, for a good post! |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 16, 2012 13:33:23 GMT -5
some within the fellowship who are holding to the status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail, they are in the place of God Any who believe that would have to include Graham Thompson. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 16, 2012 20:19:45 GMT -5
Great post Jo, a copy of this need to be sent to 323 Youth !!!! The attitude of some people is just unbelievable, coving up & pretending this doesn't happen, then if anyone comments they are told they are judging !
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Post by kiwi on Jun 16, 2012 21:21:38 GMT -5
If they were all one in God there would not be many different definitions of Him. God is one with one will which is not changeable and cannot be divided like you suggest is happening. No, God is not divided. God is one, just as Jesus said to the Father -- "we are one". kiwi, do you believe as the Bible says, that Jesus is God? I think you have had a little trouble in reading what you have quoted on  |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 16, 2012 21:36:49 GMT -5
No, God is not divided. God is one, just as Jesus said to the Father -- "we are one". kiwi, do you believe as the Bible says, that Jesus is God? I think you have had a little trouble in reading what you have quoted on Please explain. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 16, 2012 21:38:15 GMT -5
Great post Jo, a copy of this need to be sent to 323 Youth !!!! The attitude of some people is just unbelievable, coving up & pretending this doesn't happen, then if anyone comments they are told they are judging ! Was sexual abuse of children a recent topic on 323 Youth? |
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Post by JO on Jun 16, 2012 23:12:26 GMT -5
Great post Jo, a copy of this need to be sent to 323 Youth !!!! The attitude of some people is just unbelievable, coving up & pretending this doesn't happen, then if anyone comments they are told they are judging ! Child sexual abuse can't be covered up without putting children at risk. The choice facing the fellowship is something like this: 1. Leave the fellowship's children at risk of being sexually abused:Continue to cover it up, don't judge child sexual abusers, deal with abuses only in secret, and pretend that it doesn't happen amongst us. 2. Protect the fellowship's children from further sexual abuse:Speak openly about CSA, expose abusers, and accept that they and their families will have to suffer shame and humiliation as a consequence of the abuser's actions. Either way, people get hurt. However if there is openness and accountability, potential abusers will know that their evil deeds will be exposed so offending will be drastically reduced. Parents will be better equipped to protect their children, and the children will know that child sexual abuse is never OK. Children will know they should fend off and report any advances no matter who the perpetrator is. It's sad that children have to have a part in their own protection and that some friends and workers can't be trusted to not harm them, but the last line of defense is the children's ability to protect themselves. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2012 0:02:51 GMT -5
Another great post JO. Thanks for that.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 17, 2012 0:27:59 GMT -5
It's sad that children have to have a part in their own protection and that some friends and workers can't be trusted to not harm them, but the last line of defense is the children's ability to protect themselves. I agree with most of your message, but I see a problem with the way you said this. Teaching children self-defense techniques -- physical, mental, preventative, emotional, behavioral, and otherwise -- is of the utmost importance and not only because there have been abuses by members of this group. Teaching children to handle situations wisely, stay out of dangerous or inappropriate situations, and protect themselves from harm is an essential part of raising them properly and always has been. Children who don't know how to protect themselves grow into adults who don't know how to protect themselves. |
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Post by JO on Jun 17, 2012 0:45:58 GMT -5
It's sad that children have to have a part in their own protection and that some friends and workers can't be trusted to not harm them, but the last line of defense is the children's ability to protect themselves. I agree with most of your message, but I see a problem with the way you said this. Teaching children self-defense techniques -- physical, mental, preventative, emotional, behavioral, and otherwise -- is of the utmost importance and not only because there have been abuses by members of this group. Teaching children to handle situations wisely, stay out of dangerous or inappropriate situations, and protect themselves from harm is an essential part of raising them properly and always has been. Children who don't know how to protect themselves grow into adults who don't know how to protect themselves. I agree - the risks are not only from friends and workers. Every child on the planet needs to understand that sexual abuse is never OK. Children need to know they should fend off and report any advances no matter who the perpetrator is. What if the adults in the child's life continue to cover CSA up, condemn anyone who raises the topic as judgmental, deal with abuses only in secret, and pretend that it doesn't happen amongst us? It will result in poorly equipped parents, and poorly equipped children as well. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 17, 2012 0:52:50 GMT -5
Yes sexual abuse was discussed or I should say tried to be discussed, but was shot down fairly quickly with comment like CSA shouldn't be discussed on 323, bitter ex's trying to cause trouble, we shouldn't be judging, etc etc. They keep burying their heads in the sand.
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Post by sharonw on Jun 17, 2012 11:43:51 GMT -5
some within the fellowship who are holding to the status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail, they are in the place of God Any who believe that would have to include Graham Thompson. How so? Isn't GT considered somewhat a "lone worker"? |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 17, 2012 11:46:57 GMT -5
Yes sexual abuse was discussed or I should say tried to be discussed, but was shot down fairly quickly with comment like CSA shouldn't be discussed on 323, bitter ex's trying to cause trouble, we shouldn't be judging, etc etc. They keep burying their heads in the sand. True! But JO isn't a bitter ex....he's trying to be the change he sees that is needed and doing a far job so far, though I have to wonder at what time he will be shut out. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 17, 2012 16:41:05 GMT -5
Any who believe that would have to include Graham Thompson. How so? Isn't GT considered somewhat a "lone worker"? 1) Workers are perfect and cannot fail ("all" is implied). 2) Graham Thompson is a worker ------------------------------------------------- Therefore, Graham Thompson is perfect and cannot fail. If they believe #1, they have to believe GT is perfect and therefore right, since #2 is given. Now, I don't know anyone who really believes that, but that's the caricature that was stated as fact. |
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Post by JO on Jun 17, 2012 18:36:19 GMT -5
CUL, was it the following post that you are referring to? Sharon was not stating anything as fact. She wrote the words "seem" and "seems". Or were you referring to some other post? I find it depressing and sad that there seems to be yet some within the fellowship who are holding to the status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail, they are in the place of God to some of these folks. Those seem to be those who thought Graham's sermon was out of place.... |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 17, 2012 19:23:44 GMT -5
CUL, was it the following post that you are referring to? Sharon was not stating anything as fact. She wrote the words "seem" and "seems". Or were you referring to some other post? I find it depressing and sad that there seems to be yet some within the fellowship who are holding to the status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail, they are in the place of God to some of these folks. Those seem to be those who thought Graham's sermon was out of place.... My post was in response to JO's telling that some at the spec. mtgs. felt like it was not the right kind of thing to preach. And also some felt like that the fellowship is in no way needful of such sermons. Blinded with scales on their eyes? |
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Post by JO on Jun 17, 2012 20:14:09 GMT -5
CUL, was it the following post that you are referring to? Sharon was not stating anything as fact. She wrote the words "seem" and "seems". Or were you referring to some other post? My post was in response to JO's telling that some at the spec. mtgs. felt like it was not the right kind of thing to preach. And also some felt like that the fellowship is in no way needful of such sermons. Blinded with scales on their eyes? Sharon, those who have no experience with sexual immorality in the fellowship may well believe that such evil would only happen outside. Sadly, this blind trust has provided an environment for child sex abusers to operate with impunity in the fellowship. Child protection is everyone's responsibility. An African saying goes "It take a whole village to raise a child". The fellowship has failed miserably in the protection of the children entrusted to it. I believe its impossible to make the fellowship a safe place for the children without a widespread awakening to the problem. If we knew a murderer was in our midst we would want everyone to be vigilant. We know we have a problem with child sexual abuse in our midst, so why not encourage everyone to be vigilant? |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 17, 2012 21:30:03 GMT -5
My post was in response to JO's telling that some at the spec. mtgs. felt like it was not the right kind of thing to preach. And also some felt like that the fellowship is in no way needful of such sermons. Blinded with scales on their eyes? Yes... and my point was that if they think the workers are perfect then they wouldn't be questioning whether one of them was right to preach what he preached. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 17, 2012 21:33:05 GMT -5
CUL, was it the following post that you are referring to? Sharon was not stating anything as fact. She wrote the words "seem" and "seems". Or were you referring to some other post? I find it depressing and sad that there seems to be yet some within the fellowship who are holding to the status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail, they are in the place of God to some of these folks. Those seem to be those who thought Graham's sermon was out of place.... The "status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail". It seems that was stated as fact and the "seems" applied to the idea that "some within the fellowship who are holding to" it. Sharon may correct me if that wasn't her intention, but it makes no substantive difference to my point. |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 18, 2012 10:21:24 GMT -5
CUL, was it the following post that you are referring to? Sharon was not stating anything as fact. She wrote the words "seem" and "seems". Or were you referring to some other post? The "status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail". It seems that was stated as fact and the "seems" applied to the idea that "some within the fellowship who are holding to" it. Sharon may correct me if that wasn't her intention, but it makes no substantive difference to my point. No, I was not making substantive claims...I said "seems"....I'm talking about how people "seem" to be thinking, doing, etc. Otherwords, maybe they are not thinking at all. |
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Post by emy on Jun 18, 2012 11:34:57 GMT -5
The "status quo of workers are perfect and cannot fail". It seems that was stated as fact and the "seems" applied to the idea that "some within the fellowship who are holding to" it. Sharon may correct me if that wasn't her intention, but it makes no substantive difference to my point. No, I was not making substantive claims...I said "seems"....I'm talking about how people "seem" to be thinking, doing, etc. Otherwords, maybe they are not thinking at all. Thanks for the clarification, because i read it much like CUL. |
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Post by sgw on Jun 18, 2012 14:18:33 GMT -5
It seems to me suspicious that there's a verbatim record of what this worker said at that meeting (if he actually did say that).
Was anyone on this board present?
How was an apparently complete verbatim record taken, then posted here?
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 18, 2012 14:53:54 GMT -5
It seems to me suspicious that there's a verbatim record of what this worker said at that meeting (if he actually did say that). Was anyone on this board present? How was an apparently complete verbatim record taken, then posted here? Not suspicious at all. It was recorded and then transcribed. Yes.... there were people who read on the board present. This sermon has been shared with a lot of other workers. Those I have discussed it with think that it was very well presented, and they agree with what was said by Graham. The only part that was questioned was where he named a specific area as not addressing problems correctly. |
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Post by Bad ger M on Jun 18, 2012 19:28:18 GMT -5
It seems to me suspicious that there's a verbatim record of what this worker said at that meeting (if he actually did say that). Was anyone on this board present? How was an apparently complete verbatim record taken, then posted here? Not suspicious at all. It was recorded and then transcribed. Yes.... there were people who read on the board present. This sermon has been shared with a lot of other workers. Those I have discussed it with think that it was very well presented, and they agree with what was said by Graham. The only part that was questioned was where he named a specific area as not addressing problems correctly. What's wrong with naming and shaming if and when it's due! - it may prompt someone into taking some long awaited action - although I doubt it! |
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Post by JO on Jun 18, 2012 19:40:28 GMT -5
It seems to me suspicious that there's a verbatim record of what this worker said at that meeting (if he actually did say that). Was anyone on this board present? How was an apparently complete verbatim record taken, then posted here? Not suspicious at all. It was recorded and then transcribed. Yes.... there were people who read on the board present. This sermon has been shared with a lot of other workers. Those I have discussed it with think that it was very well presented, and they agree with what was said by Graham. The only part that was questioned was where he named a specific area as not addressing problems correctly. Scott, do the critics feel that child sex abuse has been handled correctly in that specific area? Or just that friends and workers everywhere should support the stand the ministry has taken in that specific area by remaining silent? I presume the following are the portions of concern from the OP? ............. .................... .......................... ........................... .................... Today we want to speak about these things as discretely as possible and as clearly as necessary. In the last year or so there has been quite a lot of discussion about matters in Victoria, Australia. I find it very saddening and have to say that I feel that the response of the ministry has not been adequate. There is no point in trying to make an apology because words can't deliver. But what is really needed is that most profound of all apologies and that is reform of attitude and beginning to acknowledge where there has been error and the committed purpose and earnestness to ensure that where there has been error that there will not be error again. ..................... Repentance, the thought or suggestion or feeling of repentance will have no value at all unless all those matters have been addressed, and there is a willingness for the law to be followed and the penalties to be faced and accepted without appeal. I don't understand how anyone who could appeal against a penalty could consider themselves to be fully remorseful. There must be a willingness for the acceptance of penalty. There must be a willingness to seek help that is necessary and effectively from those who are clinically equipped and enabled to deal with matters of process and proper mind, and there must be very clear and definite and concrete steps that speak of change from the depths of the heart and then , and only then, can there be a feeling that there has been repentance. Then, and only then, can there be the possibility of beginning, rebuilding confidence. It is possible, if the process is followed. |
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Post by JO on Jun 18, 2012 19:44:03 GMT -5
There are some concerned and disappointed people in "that specific area" as can be seen from the following post. The following is an email that was sent out to a lot of workers and friends recently. It was sent to me today, and I thought it would be worth posting here for all to read. I have no idea who the author of this is. I broke it into segments to make it easier to read.
To the Workers & Friends who should know the truth,
I am writing this letter to a number of workers & friends who have not been told the truth regarding many child sexual assault violators in our fellowship, the latest one being in VIC. The fact that this worker (now ex worker) is being regarded as a hero by some of his colleagues & some of the friends, saying “it’s a miracle he has the spirit he has after all he has been through” is hardly what should be believed about someone who has been charged, convicted & found guilty on Child Sexual Assault (CSA) offences.
It is said amongst the friends that he was hired a high profile lawyer to get him off. I don’t believe this is the Christian way. If he was to show repentance & the spirit of a person who is so sorry for his action, he would accept the punishment. Particularly when he admitted to the overseers of both VIC and WA that there are other victims, but only 1 brave soul was willing to come forward & have him charged. We hear of others who wanted to come forward, but apparently changed their minds after visits from those in authority.
In the world there is a saying ‘do the crime, do the time ’. Apparently some in the fellowship & some senior workers in particular don’t think like that, they think we, as Gods children, are above the law of this land. We are not.
Until the overseers are willing to advise all workers, also those friends in the fellowship, the dangers and complete unacceptability of CSA in God’s way, these crimes will continue. Believe me, there are many violators, a lot more than you would like to believe among our fellowship, both workers and amongst the friends.
I am sure Jesus didn’t want anyone to take advantage of children who couldn’t defend themselves & then pass it off as ‘sins of the flesh’. If this is what the overseers & those in authority want us to believe, I am sure you must want to question if we are following the path that Jesus trod.
If you were to put yourself in the shoes of a victim for just one day, who was violated by someone they were taught to trust without question, I am sure your attitude would change. The damage & pain CSA causes to the victim & their families is beyond comprehension if you haven’t experienced it.
Obviously I cannot reveal my identity at this stage as there would be serious repercussions to me if my name is revealed. But believe me, there are many men who I know in our fellowship who think as I do.
Some of these men are husbands and brothers of victims of CSA at the hands of trusted workers. There are many women too, victims and friends of victims, who all talk amongst themselves and know the truth.
In God’s time I am sure that there will be many people who will stand up for what is right, & will not fear how they will be treated if they make a stand. This will take time, but you need to know there are a lot of friends who are very unhappy with the way CSA is being (mis)handled by those in authority.
Perhaps a verse from JEREMIAH 5:31 is appropriate. The prophets prophesy falsely, & the priests bear rule by their means; & my people love to have it so, & what will you do in the end thereof?
We, as ‘Gods people’ seem to have become so taken up by every word the workers say we take it as the Gospel truth, if it is right or wrong. Sadly, in recent days it is often their words, not God’s.
Not all Gods servants have this attitude. BUT – until they are willing to take a stand against CSA, HOW DO WE KNOW who is for or against this extremely serious disease that has crept into God’s way. We are no different from any other church if these things are hidden.
If you are a worker, please share this email with your companion. He/She may not have received it.
Husbands, Wives, please don’t just discard this. Think what would happen if one of your children was molested by someone you trust? What would you do? It IS happening & it must stop.
There is another reason why it is important that you as workers – leaders in our fellowship – are impeccable in how you treat this issue of CSA, not just by God’s law but also according to the laws of our land.
In Victoria in April 2012, the Victorian Coalition Government announced the establishment of a Parliamentary inquiry into matters relating to the handling of alleged criminal abuse of children by religious and other organisations. It is hard to see that this inquiry will not investigate CSA within our fellowship.
The inquiry will have broad terms of reference to consider the practices, policies and protocols of religious and other non-government organisations for the handling of allegations of criminal abuse of children by personnel within their organisations.
The terms of reference for the inquiry are as follows:
The Family and Community Development Committee is requested to inquire into, consider and report to the Parliament on the processes by which religious and other non-government organisations respond to the criminal abuse of children by personnel within their organisations, including:
1. the practices, policies and protocols in such organisations for the handling of allegations of criminal abuse of children, including measures put in place by various organisations in response to concerns about such abuse within the organisation or the potential for such abuse to occur;
2. whether there are systemic practices in such organisations that operate to preclude or discourage the reporting of suspected criminal abuse of children to State authorities; and
3. whether changes to law or to practices, policies and protocols in such organisations are required to help prevent criminal abuse of children by personnel in such organisations and to deal with allegations of such abuse.
In undertaking the inquiry, the Committee should be mindful of not encroaching upon the responsibilities of investigatory agencies or the courts in relation to particular cases or prejudicing the conduct or outcome of investigations or court proceedings.
The Committee is requested to report to the Parliament no later than 30 April 2013.
I trust you will search your hearts and God’s word for how you should react to the issues that I have raised in this open letter. (please feel free to pass it on) Because these are issues that are of deep concern to so many amongst the friends. They are also issues that undoubtedly grieve the heart of holy God.
Yours in a spirit of hope for the future of our fellowship,
One of many concerned friends.
May 2012
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 21:12:27 GMT -5
Those who complain about GT naming VicTas as a place where issues have not been dealt with adequately are playing cheap politics, nothing else. Let's call a spade a spade, it has not been dealt with properly over there and they need to fix it.
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