|
|
Post by JO on Jun 12, 2012 15:25:53 GMT -5
The only disparaging remark I have heard from a worker (admittedly not firsthand, but believable because of past experience I have had with the worker concerned) was a comment that did not condemn Graham’s ‘teaching’ at all, but simply centred on the fact that it was a subject that should never be spoken on at Special meetings. Child sexual abuse thrives where the subject is taboo. Child sexual abusers love the darkness because their deeds are evil. The subject needed to be addressed. It could have been done with a pastoral letter but that was probably not an option available to Graham. If ONE child is protected as a result of Graham's message it would be well worth his effort. Sadly, many would rather hear what they term "encouragement" which is basically "we're in the only right way, we're going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell". Sprinkle that with some feel-good stuff from "Chicken Soup for the Soul" and you have what system-minded people would call "wonderful" special meetings and conventions. Meetings should draw us closer to Christ and make us more like him. Rather than tell us how great we are they should challenge us to fix what is not of God in our lives and in our fellowship. ....................... ................................. ......................... ........................... ........................... 1 John 3 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. |
|
|
|
Post by JO on Jun 12, 2012 16:23:12 GMT -5
Perhaps he's doing his good work amongst the flock rather than arguing on TMB? I've crossed swords with noels from time to time, but get a feeling that he really is trying to make a difference... Time will tell... While I'm not always in agreement with Noels I do applaud him for his efforts to "make a difference" as you say. His preaching is refreshing because he actually says something meaningful. |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 13, 2012 1:25:35 GMT -5
How do you know another worker would have. Male or female? Why do you think I would think that? Why do you think I am saying that? Is there any evidence that I have in anyway suggested such? Why do you think I would be saying that? |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 13, 2012 1:32:38 GMT -5
I know you don't speak on his behalf, but it would be nice to have an indication of the reaction to Grahams sermon amongst the workers... There are some workers who have privately stated they support Graham’s message and are very glad it’s been said – from what I have heard first hand these are mainly the junior ones, but there could be others. It would be nice if even one worker would declare their support openly on this board (even under a pseudonym would be better than nothing) but I understand that they will have various reasons for remaining in the background (e.g. they have relationships with current companions to maintain etc). Of course, Graham is a distinct personality and is head and shoulders integrity-wise above many of the others – put it this way, the rest are wimps in comparison, in terms of standing for matters of truth. Graham has always been prepared to make such stands. While I would like some open worker support to be given (rather than voiced privately behind the scenes, as is currently happening) I actually think that a very significant point is that so far no worker, to my knowledge, has expressed any flaw in the approach Graham has given on how to deal effectively with csa. I have heard nothing adverse along that line, even privately. His message is very widely known now through NZ – you ring anyone on the phone in any area of NZ and there is now a high chance they know about it. So if there is any obvious flaw in his approach to csa, then I would have expected it to have surfaced by now. The only disparaging remark I have heard from a worker (admittedly not firsthand, but believable because of past experience I have had with the worker concerned) was a comment that did not condemn Graham’s ‘teaching’ at all, but simply centred on the fact that it was a subject that should never be spoken on at Special meetings. But this remark was from a senior worker who many know dislikes Graham intensely, and loves the limelight (so he certainly wouldn’t like Graham getting any limelight, nor Graham’s ability to express his thinking on csa so effectively). I also find it telling, that this worker did not refer to any flaws in Graham’s doctrine or teaching, because I am confident he would have referred to them if there were any. Why would any worker come on here and state anything especially when they are described as wimps? |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 13, 2012 1:36:03 GMT -5
So the important stuff God would want us to know is not in the Bible? I would think it's important to some people. Just not the only book that has been important to people when they felt led to be connected with the divine. Not being open to learning what other cultures have learned about God can limit us to a too narrow view of God. But then, Kiwi, you know that's just how feel about things. I understand the bible is the one you have chosen.  Humm I read in the Bible about the way being narrow. Don't you understand that it is God who is giving us something which can only be taken on His terms? We don't have any rights to choose anything other than what has been stated. |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 13, 2012 1:38:52 GMT -5
Perhaps he's doing his good work amongst the flock rather than arguing on TMB? I've crossed swords with noels from time to time, but get a feeling that he really is trying to make a difference... Time will tell... While I'm not always in agreement with Noels I do applaud him for his efforts to "make a difference" as you say. His preaching is refreshing because he actually says something meaningful. At the specials I was at everything was meaningful, if one wants to hear all that God would tell him he will be filled but if one has preconceived ideas about what God should tell them they will come away empty. |
|
|
|
Post by DumSpiroSpero on Jun 13, 2012 2:12:52 GMT -5
While I'm not always in agreement with Noels I do applaud him for his efforts to "make a difference" as you say. His preaching is refreshing because he actually says something meaningful. At the specials I was at everything was meaningful, if one wants to hear all that God would tell him he will be filled but if one has preconceived ideas about what God should tell them they will come away empty. That's fair comment kiwi, but not entirely accurate. We all have preconceived or preconditioned ideas based on what we have learnt, what we believe and our life experience, among many variables. You and I could listen to the same sermon and come away with different (but still meaningful) memories and thoughts, based on our individual preconception/bias etc. That doesn't mean that either of us got it wrong, or that the message we received was any less meaningful. Case in point - four Gospels, varied because of four authors, but all meaningful... |
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Jun 13, 2012 5:39:06 GMT -5
So the important stuff God would want us to know is not in the Bible? I would think it's important to some people. Just not the only book that has been important to people when they felt led to be connected with the divine. Not being open to learning what other cultures have learned about God can limit us to a too narrow view of God. But then, Kiwi, you know that's just how feel about things. I understand the bible is the one you have chosen. Kiwi What/how did God communicate with His people for 400 years before the bible was available ken |
|
|
|
Post by emerald on Jun 13, 2012 6:58:33 GMT -5
Why do you think I would think that? Why do you think I am saying that? Is there any evidence that I have in anyway suggested such? Why do you think I would be saying that? What part of my support for your position displeases you? To refresh your memory: Reply #227 on Jun 11, 2012, 10:28am Kiwi assured us that GT's sermon was inspired by God and that GT is completely in step with all the other NZ workers on this. If GT hadn't delivered the sermon, another worker would have. Male or female. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2012 7:12:09 GMT -5
Firstly there have been several suggestions that GT might be considered a bit of a loose cannon - certainly not of the inner circle or with a desire to be there. I am sure there are some who might call Graham a loose cannon all right. Many others though, look on him as a true 'defender of truth', unfettered by any desire to obey or fit in with man rather than God. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2012 7:22:01 GMT -5
Why would any worker come on here and state anything especially when they are described as wimps? I'll think about that a bit further because maybe my word usage of 'wimps' is unfair. What I can say is that Graham is a man of inordinate courage of convictions. And in my view he has this virtue to an extent that a very small percentage of human beings have. |
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on Jun 13, 2012 9:20:29 GMT -5
There are some workers who have privately stated they support Graham’s message and are very glad it’s been said – from what I have heard first hand these are mainly the junior ones, but there could be others. It would be nice if even one worker would declare their support openly on this board (even under a pseudonym would be better than nothing) but I understand that they will have various reasons for remaining in the background (e.g. they have relationships with current companions to maintain etc). Of course, Graham is a distinct personality and is head and shoulders integrity-wise above many of the others – put it this way, the rest are wimps in comparison, in terms of standing for matters of truth. Graham has always been prepared to make such stands. While I would like some open worker support to be given (rather than voiced privately behind the scenes, as is currently happening) I actually think that a very significant point is that so far no worker, to my knowledge, has expressed any flaw in the approach Graham has given on how to deal effectively with csa. I have heard nothing adverse along that line, even privately. His message is very widely known now through NZ – you ring anyone on the phone in any area of NZ and there is now a high chance they know about it. So if there is any obvious flaw in his approach to csa, then I would have expected it to have surfaced by now. The only disparaging remark I have heard from a worker (admittedly not firsthand, but believable because of past experience I have had with the worker concerned) was a comment that did not condemn Graham’s ‘teaching’ at all, but simply centred on the fact that it was a subject that should never be spoken on at Special meetings. But this remark was from a senior worker who many know dislikes Graham intensely, and loves the limelight (so he certainly wouldn’t like Graham getting any limelight, nor Graham’s ability to express his thinking on csa so effectively). I also find it telling, that this worker did not refer to any flaws in Graham’s doctrine or teaching, because I am confident he would have referred to them if there were any. Why would any worker come on here and state anything especially when they are described as wimps? Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy...no, I distintly remembered that being used to describe substandard garbage bags. |
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on Jun 13, 2012 9:23:02 GMT -5
Firstly there have been several suggestions that GT might be considered a bit of a loose cannon - certainly not of the inner circle or with a desire to be there. I am sure there are some who might call Graham a loose cannon all right. Many others though, look on him as a true 'defender of truth', unfettered by any desire to obey or fit in with man rather than God. ...and, since I'm speculating, I would guess that this division in thought is what keeps GT in the work. After all, GT is in his fifties, younger than Cooney when he was excommunicated. If the workers excommunicate GT, they could easily split the NZ fellowship or leave the senior workers with even less support than they have now. Quite a conundrum. |
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Jun 13, 2012 9:39:27 GMT -5
I would think it's important to some people. Just not the only book that has been important to people when they felt led to be connected with the divine. Not being open to learning what other cultures have learned about God can limit us to a too narrow view of God. But then, Kiwi, you know that's just how feel about things. I understand the bible is the one you have chosen. Humm I read in the Bible about the way being narrow. Don't you understand that it is God who is giving us something which can only be taken on His terms? We don't have any rights to choose anything other than what has been stated. It seems to me that we have perhaps a wrong picture in our mind when we speak about the way being narrow...Jesus said it is strait and narrow.....and that means that Jesus IS THE WAY. One of my cousins likened it to when he was in the navy and they were coming around the southern tip of Africa and in those seas off the coasts of Africa are some rocky ledges and hard coral beds. And the sea navigators in that region know that there is only one way to pass through those waters off the coasts of Africa and it IS STRAIT...otherwords one little wave push the ship one iota and the ship is apt to sustain some kind of damage....so if the man at the helm isn't careful he can rip the bottom out of his ship and lose all he has on that ship. THIS is STRAIT. How is STRAIT compared to "the Way"? It is only through Jesus we can come to eternal life. No group or sect or denominations is Jesus are they? To equate a religious system as the same as Jesus is really sinful, IMO |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 13, 2012 9:51:54 GMT -5
I would think it's important to some people. Just not the only book that has been important to people when they felt led to be connected with the divine. Not being open to learning what other cultures have learned about God can limit us to a too narrow view of God. But then, Kiwi, you know that's just how feel about things. I understand the bible is the one you have chosen. Humm I read in the Bible about the way being narrow. Don't you understand that it is God who is giving us something which can only be taken on His terms? We don't have any rights to choose anything other than what has been stated. Good so then you would agree that if a Muslim is called by god/Allah to believe in the Quran, they don't have a choice to be anything other than Muslim. You chose the Bible , they the Quran, someone else the Vedas etc. There is God in all of the different ways people try to connect with the divine. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 13, 2012 9:57:15 GMT -5
I would think it's important to some people. Just not the only book that has been important to people when they felt led to be connected with the divine. Not being open to learning what other cultures have learned about God can limit us to a too narrow view of God. But then, Kiwi, you know that's just how feel about things. I understand the bible is the one you have chosen. Kiwi What/how did God communicate with His people for 400 years before the bible was available ken Or before there were Christians for that matter. God is not a limited being that can be put in a little box where he becomes the sole possession of any one group. |
|
|
|
Post by emy on Jun 13, 2012 15:32:17 GMT -5
Humm I read in the Bible about the way being narrow. Don't you understand that it is God who is giving us something which can only be taken on His terms? We don't have any rights to choose anything other than what has been stated. Good so then you would agree that if a Muslim is called by god/Allah to believe in the Quran, they don't have a choice to be anything other than Muslim. You chose the Bible , they the Quran, someone else the Vedas etc. There is God in all of the different ways people try to connect with the divine. The other ways leave out what Sharon said about Jesus. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 13, 2012 19:38:03 GMT -5
Good so then you would agree that if a Muslim is called by god/Allah to believe in the Quran, they don't have a choice to be anything other than Muslim. You chose the Bible , they the Quran, someone else the Vedas etc. There is God in all of the different ways people try to connect with the divine. The other ways leave out what Sharon said about Jesus. But the other ways still have a good message. Jesus is important to Christians, but you can't expect others to believe what Christians believe. So, I say, there were many Masters that tried to enlighten the world in the same way as Jesus did, and they too have their devoted followers. |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:09:18 GMT -5
Humm I read in the Bible about the way being narrow. Don't you understand that it is God who is giving us something which can only be taken on His terms? We don't have any rights to choose anything other than what has been stated. Good so then you would agree that if a Muslim is called by god/Allah to believe in the Quran, they don't have a choice to be anything other than Muslim. You chose the Bible , they the Quran, someone else the Vedas etc. There is God in all of the different ways people try to connect with the divine. So you are saying they all are one in God? |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:13:52 GMT -5
At the specials I was at everything was meaningful, if one wants to hear all that God would tell him he will be filled but if one has preconceived ideas about what God should tell them they will come away empty. That's fair comment kiwi, but not entirely accurate. We all have preconceived or preconditioned ideas based on what we have learnt, what we believe and our life experience, among many variables. You and I could listen to the same sermon and come away with different (but still meaningful) memories and thoughts, based on our individual preconception/bias etc. That doesn't mean that either of us got it wrong, or that the message we received was any less meaningful. Case in point - four Gospels, varied because of four authors, but all meaningful... I agree we can all get different messages from the same sermon as it is God's way of working with His people but to go with preconceived ideas is of man not God and therefore hinders what God wants to do. To listen with preconceived ideas is not listening in faith. |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:45:55 GMT -5
Why do you think I would think that? Why do you think I am saying that? Is there any evidence that I have in anyway suggested such? Why do you think I would be saying that? What part of my support for your position displeases you? To refresh your memory: Reply #227 on Jun 11, 2012, 10:28am Kiwi assured us that GT's sermon was inspired by God and that GT is completely in step with all the other NZ workers on this. If GT hadn't delivered the sermon, another worker would have. Male or female. frankly you have lost me, where did you support me? |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:48:48 GMT -5
I would think it's important to some people. Just not the only book that has been important to people when they felt led to be connected with the divine. Not being open to learning what other cultures have learned about God can limit us to a too narrow view of God. But then, Kiwi, you know that's just how feel about things. I understand the bible is the one you have chosen. Kiwi What/how did God communicate with His people for 400 years before the bible was available ken Through His Holy Spirit as He does now, but now we have also delivered by God a book of teachings and happenings which gives us added privilege. |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:50:25 GMT -5
Firstly there have been several suggestions that GT might be considered a bit of a loose cannon - certainly not of the inner circle or with a desire to be there. I am sure there are some who might call Graham a loose cannon all right. Many others though, look on him as a true 'defender of truth', unfettered by any desire to obey or fit in with man rather than God. I just love the way you people talk about someone you don't know ;D |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:53:13 GMT -5
I am sure there are some who might call Graham a loose cannon all right. Many others though, look on him as a true 'defender of truth', unfettered by any desire to obey or fit in with man rather than God. ...and, since I'm speculating, I would guess that this division in thought is what keeps GT in the work. After all, GT is in his fifties, younger than Cooney when he was excommunicated. If the workers excommunicate GT, they could easily split the NZ fellowship or leave the senior workers with even less support than they have now. Quite a conundrum. I am quite sure excommunication would not have entered the minds of any here. |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:56:00 GMT -5
Kiwi What/how did God communicate with His people for 400 years before the bible was available ken Or before there were Christians for that matter. God is not a limited being that can be put in a little box where he becomes the sole possession of any one group. No but man is limited by what He has put in the box for us  You're just coming up with ideas and saying God has to accept them. |
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Jun 14, 2012 0:57:33 GMT -5
The other ways leave out what Sharon said about Jesus. But the other ways still have a good message. Jesus is important to Christians, but you can't expect others to believe what Christians believe. So, I say, there were many Masters that tried to enlighten the world in the same way as Jesus did, and they too have their devoted followers. But do they get what God has offered to those who follow Jesus? |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 14, 2012 10:07:43 GMT -5
Good so then you would agree that if a Muslim is called by god/Allah to believe in the Quran, they don't have a choice to be anything other than Muslim. You chose the Bible , they the Quran, someone else the Vedas etc. There is God in all of the different ways people try to connect with the divine. So you are saying they all are one in God? Yes. But like Rational says there is many definitions of God. I think God is able to sort it all out. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 14, 2012 10:12:04 GMT -5
Or before there were Christians for that matter. God is not a limited being that can be put in a little box where he becomes the sole possession of any one group. No but man is limited by what He has put in the box for us You're just coming up with ideas and saying has to accept them. No Kiwi, I don't expect anyone to accept my ideas. I offer them so people understand me better. I'm not sure who really decided 'what God needs'. Since the books are written by men, maybe we're all just making it up as we go. Myself included of course. |
|
