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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Nov 15, 2008 22:26:05 GMT -5
Do you believe if you die without repenting or forgiving you will go to Hell?
Let's say you have a fight with your spouse. You haven't repented or forgiven them, die in a car wreck that day. Hell or Heaven?
Assuming of course you are a believer...
Did Jesus not die for all sins? WHen He died, how many of your sins were future sins?
Does this mean we sin just to sin, as it says in the bible "God forbid".
And the sinning when we don't really want to but we can't seem to stop ourselves is addressed by Paul. It says something along the lines of I didn't even think of that sin until I read it was wrong in the law. Now because of the law I do that what I don't want to do but can't seem to stop. Kind of like when you see the sign "Don't Touch, Wet Paint" or "Don't Walk on the Grass". What do you want to do? Touch the paint and stick a foot on the grass.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 15, 2008 23:26:41 GMT -5
you'd have to give the verse about Paul, but on the surface I would sugest it may not be relevant to what is at hand.
If you get opportunity to get to know Jesus Christ and consistently turn Him down you will eventually die without ever haveing accepted Him into your life. Dont forget that God exists outside of time, we live in a dimension of time, if we dont make the right choices while we are alive (in this dimension of time) that luxury (time) will run out and we will exist in eternal regret. The bible tells us that faith (believing in Jesus) comes by hearing. You may be a person who is hearing now about Jesus and in your heart wants something more.
Sin is sin and Jesus died for all sin: past, present and future.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Nov 16, 2008 1:08:28 GMT -5
Below are the verses I was thinking about.
I agree, if we don't become believers in this life, we will not have a second chance, BUT do you think that believers can willfully sin, not repent or forgive and still be saved?
I believe that repentance is a relationship issue, not a salvation issue. Once we become believers I believe we will be willing to repent but I do not know of any person on this earth that has repented from ALL their sins. I would bet if everyone was honest they would have to agree. We as humans are going to sin. Does this mean we just kind of throw in the towel and give up and say "sin away, yeeehaaa"? God forbid. But it is not a salvation issue. The issue is what is our relationship with God like?
Could you answer my question regarding repentance and forgiveness?
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 16, 2008 4:48:41 GMT -5
OK, well as you can see from an earlier post I from time to time (as a follower of Jesus Christ) wilfully sin but I repent (not in a religious way or mindset) about this. I just speak either in my mind or verbally or both, to my Father in heaven, I confess my sin and ask to be forgiven in the name of Jesus Christ. I often tell the Lord that I don’t want to be like this and hope one day things will change (and they do!) –something along these lines anyway.
When you say, “But do you think believers can wilfully sin, not repent or forgive and still be saved?” one has to ask if they really are believers and what do they believe?
There are many ’Christians’ who think they are saved but they don’t often know what they are saved from! They never have truly understood their sin and what Jesus has done for them. This is why they reckon maybe %80 of people who accept Jesus, backslide and go the way of the world because they where never told the full gospel nor did they understand it (in its basic and most fundamental form that is).
When someone gives their life to Jesus Christ they might speak out a prayer like this or this at least will be their heart felt cry:
Lord Jesus Christ, I come to you because I am a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ I repent of my sin. I turn away from my sin and I turn to Jesus. I believe dear Jesus that you died for me, your blood covers my sin and washes away my sin. I thank you. I open the doors of my heart. Come in Lord Jesus, wash me and cleanse me, make me your child as I receive you by faith. I close the door now with Jesus inside. Help me to live for you everyday until you come again. I love you and praise you for saving me dear Father, in Jesus name, amen.
So when you say, “But do you think believers can wilfully sin, not repent or forgive and still be saved?” obviously they are not saved and do not understand salvation. Repentance and forgiveness are crucial to salvation and cannot be separated. That’s what salvation is about; you have been salvaged from sin because you have been forgiven by Jesus Christ because you have repented through Jesus Christ because He made it possible by His death culminating on the cross. This is why we have to, no matter what, forgive (find a way- can talk about that latter if you want) everyone else or we can not be forgiven of our sin. After all Jesus Christ has totally forgiven us so we must do the same otherwise our sin will be held against us on judgement day.
Every time we sin and that we are aware of it we must confess our sins to our Father in heaven and ask Him to forgive us in the name of Jesus Christ. This is Gods job if you like! Now if we are not aware of a particular sin or however many sins then we will not be held accountable. As we journey with the Lord He will reveal our sins to us when we are ready to deal with them.
I will get back to you about the verses in Romans
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Post by Gene on Nov 16, 2008 6:02:46 GMT -5
Or for example you may be like me who has a similar issue in principle. There are times where I willfully sin, I sin in advance if you like, I know its wrong and that it grieves God (The Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ) but I still do it and quite frankly it really pi---- me off because I dont want to do it. But its like I am compelled (almost) to do it, that, that particular sin has a hold over me. So you see, what makes jwb okay and me not okay (in the view of jwb) is that jwb sins intentionally in committing 'the act' (what that act is, exactly, we do not know), but he acknowledges before, during, and after doing 'the act' that it is sinful. He then repents, and therefore has forgiveness for the sin of committing 'the act'. I, on the other hand, do not believe that 'the act' is sinful, and so if I were to commit 'the act' I would be committing it with no knowledge of sin, thus (apparently) placing myself outside of the forgiveness of god. In other words, guilt is GOOD! Gotta love religion!
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Nov 16, 2008 11:39:25 GMT -5
Ahhhh, the whole "if you sin you were never saved arguement". Since only Jesus was sinless, apparantly anyone who ever sins wasn't saved in the first place. My question remains, do you really believe in the examply I gave above that this person is now lost forever? Because of 1 arguement with their spouse? They didn't have time to have a change of heart, a chance to forgive. God did create us as we are. God understands wrath. God understands jealousy. It says He turned to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to envy.
If you are going to take the stand that only if we forgive and repent can we be saved you need to "extrapolate" (love that word!) out to the littlest thing like the fight example. I think if you study Paul you will see something a little different. Salvation by the blood is different than salvation under the law and believing that Jesus was the Messiah. Their position is even different. Salvation as a Jew was inheriting the "new earth" or the earth after the "refreshing" as it is called inthe bible. But salvation to the Gentiles after the law was done away with was/is in the heavenlies. Our "citizenship" is the word used.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 16, 2008 15:32:54 GMT -5
I think what I have written is reasonably clear and if one for some reason or another cant accept that, well that is their choice and their belief. We can go round in circles getting distracted by this and that and miss the big picture, what I would say to you is just to get an understanding on what I have just put forward. I will get back with those verses though - seems they are causing some confusion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2008 15:43:08 GMT -5
I got this e-mail this morning and thought I should share it with you, also included is my reply. AND HERE IS MY REPLY: .....Well the first thing is that I don't get a cent from the opening page. Any donations are in response directly with my manuscript and to date there has only been one donation, people are happy to look at my manuscript but don't want to pay...typical......but my main purpose is to tell the truth and help set the people free. I was born and raised in this cult and know first hand about it. I wanted to put something together to explain biblically about this cult I was raised in and my work was very close to what (David Legge I understand) had done. But with one exception and that was how he managed to compile it so well. There where a few inaccuracies and some details that needed to be adjusted. While I understand your concerns at me having this on my web site for the past time my main concern is that the truth be told in the best possible way to set the people free and educate them biblically. If you have the same heart motive as me you will see beyond all the red tape and understand we are all fighting to get people into heaven and out of hell! It appears D Legge is writing about the cult I suffered in, I would be interested how he arrived at his work. Once again the article I wrote was very similar. I do not want to remove this information but am willing to include a brief summery of the above with D Legge name included and maybe his website. This is the best I can do, I hope it helps and you can forward this e-mail to whoever you like, Kind Regards James Durston JWD - Any response from Mr Legge (or his lawyer) regarding the little matter of copyright? Matt10
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 16, 2008 16:29:39 GMT -5
I'll keep you posted matt10
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Post by Sharon on Nov 16, 2008 17:51:43 GMT -5
Do you believe if you die without repenting or forgiving you will go to Hell? Let's say you have a fight with your spouse. You haven't repented or forgiven them, die in a car wreck that day. Hell or Heaven? Assuming of course you are a believer... Did Jesus not die for all sins? WHen He died, how many of your sins were future sins? Does this mean we sin just to sin, as it says in the bible "God forbid". And the sinning when we don't really want to but we can't seem to stop ourselves is addressed by Paul. It says something along the lines of I didn't even think of that sin until I read it was wrong in the law. Now because of the law I do that what I don't want to do but can't seem to stop. Kind of like when you see the sign "Don't Touch, Wet Paint" or "Don't Walk on the Grass". What do you want to do? Touch the paint and stick a foot on the grass. The fight with one's wife and then something happens to her...are you forgiven? Perhaps it's better to ask, DO YOU FORGIVE YOURSELF? Mercy begins at home.....how many times have we in our lives heard of such aforegoing scenes pass? How many times do we live with regret? Regret is not being able to forgive yourself for something you carry around in your conscience....sure, most get beyond the strict pain of it and begin to live in some decent way, but that regret is always there! The letters to the seven churches in Rev. tells us what "Christians" must do when they fall short of the qualities that speak of a christlike life. Repent! Endure! Forgive! Hate idolatory! Repent! Repent! Endure! Overcome! Increase faith! Increase love! Don't be lukewarm about it! Those were Jesus' messages to the seven churches! We will never run out of a need for repentance while we are living in this body on this earth as it is today! If we get to feeling there's nothing we have to repent for, then we're really in danger!
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 16, 2008 20:13:02 GMT -5
Amen to that.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 16, 2008 22:16:50 GMT -5
learnedaboutgrace:
The King James Version is a beautiful language with depth. The only problem that arises from time to time is understanding it for the actual written text. Dont forget it was an interpretation going back to 1611'ish. We dont even speak that way now a days. What I have done is to paste "The Message" interpretation. I sugest you read it slowly and meditate upon it 2 or 3 times. Once that is done I look forward to any questions you have if any.
4-6So, my friends, this is something like what has taken place with you. When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to "marry" a resurrection life and bear "offspring" of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God.
7But I can hear you say, "If the law code was as bad as all that, it's no better than sin itself." That's certainly not true. The law code had a perfectly legitimate function. Without its clear guidelines for right and wrong, moral behavior would be mostly guesswork. Apart from the succinct, surgical command, "You shall not covet," I could have dressed covetousness up to look like a virtue and ruined my life with it.
8-12Don't you remember how it was? I do, perfectly well. The law code started out as an excellent piece of work. What happened, though, was that sin found a way to pervert the command into a temptation, making a piece of "forbidden fruit" out of it. The law code, instead of being used to guide me, was used to seduce me. Without all the paraphernalia of the law code, sin looked pretty dull and lifeless, and I went along without paying much attention to it. But once sin got its hands on the law code and decked itself out in all that finery, I was fooled, and fell for it. The very command that was supposed to guide me into life was cleverly used to trip me up, throwing me headlong. So sin was plenty alive, and I was stone dead. But the law code itself is God's good and common sense, each command sane and holy counsel.
13I can already hear your next question: "Does that mean I can't even trust what is good [that is, the law]? Is good just as dangerous as evil?" No again! Sin simply did what sin is so famous for doing: using the good as a cover to tempt me to do what would finally destroy me. By hiding within God's good commandment, sin did far more mischief than it could ever have accomplished on its own.
14-16I can anticipate the response that is coming: "I know that all God's commands are spiritual, but I'm not. Isn't this also your experience?" Yes. I'm full of myself—after all, I've spent a long time in sin's prison. What I don't understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another, doing things I absolutely despise. So if I can't be trusted to figure out what is best for myself and then do it, it becomes obvious that God's command is necessary.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Nov 16, 2008 22:41:00 GMT -5
Is repentance good? YES Is forgiveness good? YES My only point was if you truly think you have fogiven every one or repented for every sin you've committed, you are fooling yourself.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 16, 2008 23:39:49 GMT -5
No you are not nessesarily fooling yourself, and if you read my earlier post you will see why! Hey was that it? Do you know how much time that took me?.. and that was your point?.......oh well I guess it was worth it.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 18, 2008 21:03:27 GMT -5
Would the federal government of USA lie to you? Ok you can stop laughing now.
The military intelligence nearly always know things before they actually happen. Why does the US Navy have so many retired veterans and other personnel living at Arkansas Ozarks?
Why is it that insurance organisation could not understand for years why there were so many Navy and defence persons living around the same zip code?
The navy, especially the submarine core were and are told this is a safe place to retire. They weren’t told why, it was just ‘understood’.
Its all got to do with rising sea levels which are not caused by global warming but by planet x which Nasa have known about for years. Every 3600 years this thing comes in and causes havoc, and it is right on our doorstep and the public do not want to know, most would not believe it anyway ..to hard..
Nasa July 29th 2005 announced a new tenth planet which they call Xena. This is just a cover for the real thing. This planet coming in will (has already started to) cause abrupt climate change, rising ocean levels, violent tidal waves.
Where will all this water come from….no its not the melting ice…but at (most people do not know this) the base of the equator is literally millions and millions of mile cubes of water which when dislodged will cause these things. A pole shift of just a couple of degrees is all it will take.
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Post by ilylo on Nov 18, 2008 21:14:57 GMT -5
ROFL!!!! You are a nutcase. Where do you get this material? It's great. You should take this show on the road and do a one-man act in conspiracy theories.
Arkansas is NOWHERE near being high in elevation. If I wanted to move to higher ground in the USA, then it's western Colorado for me. By all means, you go to Arkansas. Say hi to Sam Walton's grave for me. He has a lot of my money.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Nov 18, 2008 21:36:12 GMT -5
I too thought that was funny. Arkansas huh? LOL
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 18, 2008 22:19:51 GMT -5
ok..well I need your help for the exact location.....I did get the actual location on google map and am trying to source it again, it actually was 1200 feet high.
The place I am refering to sounds slike: "arkensaw mussurie ozarks".....you guys are from the states...does that ring a bell?
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 18, 2008 22:22:21 GMT -5
ps...Western colorado is going down under, you need to stay away from the west coast
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 18, 2008 22:29:06 GMT -5
"arkeansorri ozarks".....it sounds similar to this as well, can anyone give me the correct spelling and location?
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Post by ilylo on Nov 18, 2008 22:56:31 GMT -5
ps...Western colorado is going down under, you need to stay away from the west coast ROFL!!!!! whew.... now that's funny.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 18, 2008 23:22:33 GMT -5
no its not actually
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Post by ilylo on Nov 18, 2008 23:33:05 GMT -5
Yes, it is actually.
Ok. Your turn to gainsay.
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Post by rational on Nov 19, 2008 0:57:57 GMT -5
ps...Western colorado is going down under, you need to stay away from the west coast Jim, Before we all get nuts and head for the wrong spot, are you saying that the Rocky mountains will be under water? I think you might need to get a map and see just where western CO is located. Also, the planet you are talking about is indeed not new. ut there have been changes. It is now named Eris and is not a planet any more. Since its orbit is well known and can be observed by anyone who cares to view it, what makes you think it will ever pass anywhere near the earth? Also, its orbit is 500+ years, not 3500.
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Post by jwbdurston on Nov 19, 2008 1:25:12 GMT -5
No that information about planet x is totaly incorrect rational. California will take damage at least 100 miles inland. ...but hey you are right about me doing my geography...and hey I know to you guys I sound nuts but its true its about to happen, there is so much evidence and I just know that I know that I know.
I can tell you now that a friend of mine and myself have just purchased 40 acres of land 700 metres high at the base of a mountain wich is 1200 feet high. I can tell you now as the Lord God is my witness that the Lord showed my friend and I to do this.
Over the world there are people unconnected saying the same things. The information immediately supplied is from someone called John JR Moore. He is a decorated veteran of Vietnam, 57 combat missions. Started his career in intelligence analysis US military intelligence back in 1967. Has been in US army special forces. Since 1973 Homicide detective, private detective, talk show host. Maintains very close relationships with intelligence and has access that few do.
Hey guys did you find out about that location I was talking about? Really appreciate if you could mention it. You must have heard of it.
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Post by ilylo on Nov 19, 2008 1:46:17 GMT -5
James,
Wacky does not begin to describe your comments in this thread.
Good luck surviving a planetary ELE at 1200 feet.
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Post by rational on Nov 19, 2008 2:54:36 GMT -5
No that information about planet x is totaly incorrect rational. California will take damage at least 100 miles inland. ...but hey you are right about me doing my geography...and hey I know to you guys I sound nuts but its true its about to happen, there is so much evidence and I just know that I know that I know. Nuts doesn't really adequately address this issue. But let's just stop and think logically for a moment. MASA is not the only group looking at the sky. How do you think they can keep this information secret when there are literally 1,000s of people searching for just what you have described? You are correct that the ocean's water "bulges" in response to the pull of the moon and, to a lesser amount, the sun's gravitational force. Are you saying that this "bulge" will be larger so the tides will display a greater variation between high and low tide? John JR Moore is doing just as you do - spinning tales of woe with no backup. I will sell you 200 acres of land at 5,000 feet. Far, far from any large body of water. And the price is right! And god told me to make you the above offer.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2008 3:25:21 GMT -5
James, I'm puzzled. You and a friend have purchased 40 acres of land "700 metres high" at the base of a mountain which is "1200 feet high ?"
How many feet are in 700 metres ?
You're either in Never Never Land, or in a giant hole in the ground !
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