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Post by Geoff on Feb 7, 2007 7:35:17 GMT -5
James
Its hard to discuss with you, because you wnat to make more of my supposed deception than of the points under discussion.
For example:
I said "I happen to agree that Christianit is not a cult." (not correcting my own spelling mistake)
and then you said: "Christianity as taught in the Bible by the example of Jesus Christ is not a cult. This is undisputed and there is no contest. The people that disagree with this are deceived like your self. "
So I said Christianity is NOT a cult, and you are trying to tell me that I'm deceived for believing it is one. Did you actually read what I wrote? Maybe you missed that point?
Next you said: "You have to understand (which you do not) that a cult is .... etc"
On what basis do you assert that I do not know what a cult is? This is our first interchange on the topic, and you claim to be able to tell me what I understand (or don't) based on one post?
You also said.. "You see…..you are one of the Friends…telling me what I should or should not say... etc"
Are you implying that because I am "one of the friends" (as you put it) that I am blind, have no view, are deceived? Do you pidgeonhole me as a lost soul because of where I chose to worship?
But then you said "WE ARE SAVED BY KNOWING AND BELIEVING AND ACCEPTING AND RECEIVING THAT JESUS CHRIST IS IN OUR HEARTS AND THAT HE IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR!!"
On this point we are totally agreed - at least in the way you have worded it here. In this version you have three "ands" - 3 things added to "knowing". I was sayiing that its not just knowing that saves us. (Satan "knows" all too). At least we have this common basis to work from going forward.
"You are mistaken Geoff, there is not an obvious hatred for lost souls...." I'm glad if I am mistaken. I stated my opinion based on what I see. If your objective is to show love for lost souls, then hallelujah, thats great, its good. But can you see that by antagonising them (as opposed to wakening them up) you won't get your message across? Can you see that by using words that cause resentment of YOU, that whatever you say is going over their head, that the content of your message is being ignored because of the tone? Can you see that poking a stick into a bee hive doesn't produce honey. (poor metaphor I agree).
Now I've stated a number of opinions. I accept that they are opinions. But I think you state opinions but contend that they are not opinions. God has given man a brain, ability to reason, logic and reasoning abilities that mean that you can't bulldoze people into thinking a certain way. You can reason (Let us come and reason together...) with people, you can present fact, and opinion, but you can't force people to agree. In saying that though, I don't beleive that people are argued into salvation, or reasoned into being saved. Thats the work of God the Spirit, explaining the work of God the Son, bringing us to know God the Father.
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Post by las logged out on Feb 7, 2007 8:04:09 GMT -5
There is a thing called experience to draw from
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Post by James Durston on Feb 7, 2007 14:04:28 GMT -5
You see Geoff there you go again! You are like Observing. You qoute every thing and elaborate on it. It has its place but not the way some of you guys think it!
You have the mind set of control and manipulation because you wont/cant think out of your box! I cant even be bothered to read your reply in full.
I am wanting to see if there is any validation in people calling the Friends, workers and meetings a cult. In my next response I am going to get on with it. You guys are timewasters!!
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Post by diet coke on Feb 7, 2007 14:14:53 GMT -5
I still don't get what this discussion is about. Cult is clearly a four-letter word; is the whole point of this to find out whether it's ok to call 2x2's by a four-letter word?
Somebody enlighten us with *the* definition for "cult". Then we'll apply that definition to 2x2's, to Christianity, to Mormonism, and whatever else you want, and see if it objectively fits the definition. Finally, we'll be able to go around legitimately calling each other naughty words.
I hope it turns out I'm in a cult, cuz I feel like shooting somebody. I hear that's what they do.
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Post by Geoff on Feb 7, 2007 16:01:07 GMT -5
James
I'm not sure how to respond to you. You clearly have a mindset of control yet you accuse me of the same. You can't even be bothered with anyone who challenges what you're saying, when what you're trying to say is that people should challenge what people say, should not take things for granted.
You seem determined to just have your say and your attitude says "to hell with what anyone else says or thinks".
But one last challenge to you.
Please describe how I am being controlled and manipulated?
Seriously! I'm quite prepared to stand up, be identified, describe all, reveal all, nothing hidden.
So, How am I being manipulated?
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Post by James Durston on Feb 7, 2007 18:13:04 GMT -5
Well thats the big question Geoff! The scales need to come of your eyes! It's probably best to continue this more personel discussion after I have dealt with the issue of: Do the Friends, Workers and Meetings constitute being a cult? More importantly...WHY?
Most of us have read what a cult is. Rather than to repeat these things which the Friends are absolutely sick of, let us see how they stand up to the Word of God! If its good...well that's fine...if there are some chalenges....well that's fine too...Dont forget that if something is of God it will always stand up.....So we do not have to be afraid!!!
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chris
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Post by chris on Feb 7, 2007 18:20:32 GMT -5
Yes
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Post by Observing on Feb 7, 2007 18:39:30 GMT -5
…well I have had a run in with Observing before and what ever I say will be wrong. It reminds me of the Pharisees and hypocrites. …legalistic…cross the T’s and dot the I’s!! From what Observing says I wonder if he is a Christian…if he is truly saved!
We did not have a run in - I asked you questions and you refused to answer them.
Yes, I would like all the facts. You asked is the F&Ws was a cult. I asked you to define a cult and then using that definition look at Christianity, your current denomination, and the F&W group.
You do not need to worry whether I am a Christian ir not - I will look after those facts.
There is little point in arguing with this man but I will reinforce a couple of things. The first is that I do not need to qualify because my Bible does that for me!
You do need to quality your questions. How can you hope to decide whether some group is a cult when you have not yet defined it? And, no, I do not think the Bible defines a cult.
The first thing is that Christianity is not a cult. There is no question about this. On this point there is no contest. If we entertain this idea we are allowing confusion into our minds.
Repeating this over and over like a mantra does not make it any more true. Give us your definition of a cult and let the readers decide.
....the Bible is very clear on the definition of what a Christian is and it is not open to interpretation. When we say Christian we are referring 100% to biblical teaching. By Christian we mean “Christ in us”.
The Bible does not define the word Christian. It is, of course, open to interpretation. All of the Bible, or any written work, is.
You have defined Christian.
Dictionaries define Christian as:
* One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. * One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
Observing said, “Of course it is open to interpretation. No where in the Bible is Christian defined as "Christ in us". This is a synthesis you (and without doubt others) have developed. It is your interpretation”.
And I stand by this statement.
OF COURSE CHRISTIAN MEANS “CHRIST IN US”.
That is your definition. Can you defend it??
What do you do when you accept Jesus Christ? You accept Him into your heart, for Him to be your Lord and Saviour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I had an electric cattle prod and was standing next to Observing I know exactly what I would do with it! Wake up man before it is too late because right now I would say your name has been blotted out! You do not understand the Word of God by a long shot as you have demonstrated time and again. Deal with your PRIDE!!
Wow, judged and threatened with bodily harm in a single paragraph.
Jim - define cult for us.
Then we can decide which groups are and which are not cults according to your definition.
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Post by Observing on Feb 7, 2007 18:59:11 GMT -5
You see Geoff there you go again! You are like Observing. You qoute every thing and elaborate on it. It has its place but not the way some of you guys think it! If we don't quote you when we respond you claim you never said it.
This way we cannot be accused of misquoting I know you dislike it. It shines the light brightly on what you have posted in the past.
You have the mind set of control and manipulation because you wont/cant think out of your box! I cant even be bothered to read your reply in full.
You are not even trying to control the manner in which we reply.
I am wanting to see if there is any validation in people calling the Friends, workers and meetings a cult. In my next response I am going to get on with it. You guys are timewasters!!
Great - so you will be defining just what you consider a cult to be.
We will do the comparison for you.
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Post by Observing on Feb 7, 2007 19:06:10 GMT -5
It's probably best to continue this more personel discussion after I have dealt with the issue of: Do the Friends, Workers and Meetings constitute being a cult? More importantly...WHY?
At last.
Most of us have read what a cult is. But, how do you define a cult? There are many definitions. Which ones do you want to use?
Rather than to repeat these things which the Friends are absolutely sick of, let us see how they stand up to the Word of God!
You still need to define just which points you want to consider.
If its good...well that's fine...if there are some chalenges....well that's fine too...Dont forget that if something is of God it will always stand up.....So we do not have to be afraid!!!
Well, consider this to be your first challenge - What is your definition of a cult?
And, BTW, I am not afraid.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 7, 2007 20:08:43 GMT -5
Oh no!
I just knew it was to good to be true!
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Post by James Durston on Feb 8, 2007 3:04:01 GMT -5
I am wanting to comprise a list of well known ‘religious groups’ (if I can use those words for sake of argument) who ‘profess Christianity’ (weather they are or not is a different topic to talk about) and unanimously state that if you are to be with Jesus Christ for all eternity, (to enter into heaven) you have to be in ‘their way!’
Jehovah Witnesses, Exclusive brethren, Mormons and Christadelphians are but a few………and I will add one more; The Church with no Name (The Friends and Workers)
Now all these guys have something very much in common: They all believe to enter into Heaven you have to be in their way!
My question to you is: WHY?
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Post by Jacquie on Feb 8, 2007 4:23:33 GMT -5
Why, ?? Because that is the nature of the beast. Why does anyone try to do what they think is absolutely necessary in order to have eternal life. You remind me of someone I use to work with, he kept telling me to stop making him look 'bad', WHY did he 'look bad'? Cause he did not want to do anything, but he still wanted the reward [paycheck] and if someone was working a lot harder than he was, then he would 'look bad' and get demoted. The parable of the talents is an example of this, the man with the one talent, got demoted, and had his talent taken away, why because he thought he didn't need to do anything, but he was sure a poor excuse of a man.
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Post by Geoff on Feb 8, 2007 4:56:22 GMT -5
James
This discussion is going round in circles. I feel the reason for that is your reluctance to discuss. You give the impression of wanting a soap-box from which to tell a story without interruptions. If thats what you want, then just say so.
But this is a DISCUSSION board, a place to put ideas and have them critically examined by others. And then to refelct on that examination and perhaps respond. But for a discussion to be meaningful there need to be some common understandings. We don't have a common understanding of the definition of the word "Cult".
You claimed variously that I have scales on my eyes, can't think outside the box, and similar thoughts. When challenged to give examples you seem to get frustrated about that.
So, do you want to discuss, or soapbox? You tell us, so that we can either discuss or just read what you write?
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Post by James Durston on Feb 8, 2007 5:24:59 GMT -5
Soapbox I realise could be an advantage because it could take an eternity to say what I want because of Biblical misunderstandings with regards to people like you and Observing.
It really is straight forward, but you two guys (Observing comes well and truly first) are sabotaging the points I want to make with unreasonable thought patterns. What should be straight forward is not and this is a reflection of a false religious spirit.
I want to make some points but always get cut off. I want to prove that the Friends, Workers and the Meetings are a cult and contrary to the word of God. ..But if I blatantly just say, “you guys are in a cult” you will just switch off. Either way I seem to be at a loss.
Most of us already have read and heard what the definitions of a cult are and it does not seem to carry much weight….But if I can actually show and prove that The Friends, Workers and Meetings are totally contrary to the Word of God,….well maybe people will see what really is going on!!
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Post by James Durston on Feb 8, 2007 5:39:14 GMT -5
One of the foundational beliefs of the Friends (wether you admit this or not makes no difference, it is definitely believed) is that you have to be in their way to be saved. There are lots of false religions like this who are just as adamant and passionate in their beliefs. You can not all be right. In fact you are all wrong!
Anyone who believes this (like the Jehovah Witnesses, Exclusive brethren, Mormons, Christadelphians, the Friends and Workers) are people who are in false religions. ANYONE WHO BELIEVES YOU HAVE TO BE IN THEIR WAY TO BE SAVED ARE FALSE. THIS IS A SURE SIGN TO KEEP AWAY FROM THEM.
If only you guys realised and believed it does not necessarily matter what the group call themselves or don’t for that matter!!!...THE FREEDOM YOU PEOPLE COULD WALK IN WOULD BE unparalleled.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 8, 2007 5:45:11 GMT -5
Jacquie said, "Because that is the nature of the beast".
How true those words are! That is exactly WHY! You guys are serving the nature of the beast wether you realise it or not!
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Post by Geoff on Feb 8, 2007 8:12:06 GMT -5
James I think you answered the question as "I want a soapbox, not a discussion"
I translate that to mean "I don't care what you think or say or believe, its wrong! And I'm right, and I won't listen to you".
I could be wrong in that and if you say I am I'll accept that.
But I do not like your assumption that I (personally) suffer from Bible misunderstandings. Now don't get me wrong here. I know that I know very little. I know that I'm wrong in some things.
But I aslo KNOW that you do not know what they are, as we have never communicated (apart from this forum, this thread).
So, when I have not stated my position on any bible points, how do you say that I MISUNDERSTAND?
For the record. I DO NOT accept the view that a person has to be on our fellowship to be saved. You seem to assume that I do, though how you arrived at that assumption you haven't said.
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There are other groups as well
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Post by There are other groups as well on Feb 8, 2007 9:18:11 GMT -5
I am wanting to comprise a list of well known ‘religious groups’ (if I can use those words for sake of argument) who ‘ profess Christianity’ (weather they are or not is a different topic to talk about) and unanimously state that if you are to be with Jesus Christ for all eternity, (to enter into heaven) you have to be in ‘their way!’ Jehovah Witnesses, Exclusive brethren, Mormons and Christadelphians are but a few………and I will add one more; The Church with no Name (The Friends and Workers)I will add another group - Christianity. Josh
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Post by Observing on Feb 8, 2007 9:28:02 GMT -5
James Durston: Soapbox I realise could be an advantage because it could take an eternity to say what I want because of Biblical misunderstandings with regards to people like you and Observing.
Jim, we have not even discussed anything from the Bible so the chance of a misunderstanding is slim to none.
It really is straight forward, but you two guys (Observing comes well and truly first) are sabotaging the points I want to make with unreasonable thought patterns. What should be straight forward is not and this is a reflection of a false religious spirit.
It is very straight forward - you are asking if various groups/religions should be classified as cults but you refuse to define a cult.
I want to make some points but always get cut off. I want to prove that the Friends, Workers and the Meetings are a cult and contrary to the word of God. ..But if I blatantly just say, “you guys are in a cult” you will just switch off. Either way I seem to be at a loss.
Nope - you can say the word cult but you will have to define it before it can be discussed. I have to agree with other posters that you are posting and asking questions but in reality you only want answers if they support your points. Why bother the pretense of asking the questions?
Most of us already have read and heard what the definitions of a cult are and it does not seem to carry much weight….
Exactly, that is why if you wish to discuss whether or not a group is a cult you have to do a little work and tell us what your definition of a cult is.
But if I can actually show and prove that The Friends, Workers and Meetings are totally contrary to the Word of God,….well maybe people will see what really is going on!! I could say you are a fulcrumin and quote scripture to prove it but unless we agree on the specific traits of a fulcrumin it does not make much sense.[/b]
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timber
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Post by timber on Feb 8, 2007 9:45:31 GMT -5
James:
If I may, I think they are asking you to "state your terms". A good discussion cannot occur otherwise.
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Post by selah on Feb 8, 2007 11:14:59 GMT -5
Observing....it does say in the Bible that Christ in us is our hope of glory. Many would say that is a definition of Christianity.
James, I hear your frustration. To you it seems you're asking a simple question, and people keep derailing it with semantics. I think everyone just wants to be sure we're comparing apples with apples that's all.
I have another sort-of related question, but I'll start another thread with it.
Who were the first called Christians?
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Observing on Feb 8, 2007 13:32:18 GMT -5
Observing....it does say in the Bible that Christ in us is our hope of glory. Many would say that is a definition of Christianity. Yes, you could say this the definition of Christianity, but as I stated, this is not a literal translation but rather a synthesis of a definition. Semantics is all we have for communicating on a message board. We could all jump on board the James' wagon and say "Yes, the F&W must be a cult". But this would be as meaningless as saying we are speaking in tongues when there has never been a clear definition of what Jim is calling a cult or exactly what he means when he says he is speaking in tongues. I believe Jim would like everyone to join him in roundly condemning the F&W group in the vaguest of terms to vindicate his own feelings. But that is just me.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 8, 2007 19:34:54 GMT -5
..You see readers; here is one of the great lies of the Friends, Workers and Meetings!
Geoff said, “For the record. I DO NOT accept the view that a person has to be in our fellowship to be saved. You seem to assume that I do, though how you arrived at that assumption you haven't said”.
Many of the Friends will play out a scenario that if someone is ‘trapped’ in a particular location where a worker cannot ‘bump’ into him or her there is a possibility that person could be saved…….or some other scenario is thought out where there are ‘exceptional’ circumstances for a particular person that could be saved without the workers making direct contact!
A foundational belief of the Friends and Workers is that you do have to be in their way to be saved….end of storey!!
Now there are many Friends who will not admit that because there is no clear spoken doctrine but they all (except Geoff) believe that. That is why they don’t have television and short died hair, earrings and obvious makeup ect ect. The Friends usually cannot articulate their beliefs but in their heart of hearts they believe you have to be in their way. Fact….no doubt about it!! They believe that if you are not in their way you are going to hell! That is why many many do not leave because it’s about fear, control and manipulation!
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Post by Bert unlogged on Feb 8, 2007 19:41:14 GMT -5
James, I put this posting on another thread, but it seems relevant here too - I don't like getting into arguments over who is saved, but I do find it intriguing that people on the TMB tend to avoid the question of where you draw the line of acceptablity before God.
My posting went... let's look at the beautiful but tragic Anne Nicole Smith --- porn star, reality TV star, show host, various affairs, married an 89 billionaire for his money, caught up in all sorts of legal strife including the paternity of her daughter, and like her son may have died of a drug overdose. Do you think that she "lost out" or do you think she is "saved"?
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bert does not get it
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Post by bert does not get it on Feb 8, 2007 19:54:56 GMT -5
bert draws the line against those who are not a member of his group. All others are simply doomed to hell, in his mind
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Post by MD on Feb 8, 2007 20:10:51 GMT -5
Was she professing? Does she say she is saved? Does she sound like she is saved? Silly example bert.
Your ignorance of acceptablity to God makes you look at and point to others who are not as good as you.
If you knew the truth of what makes mankind acceptable to God you wouldn't do this, you wouldn't need to.
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Post by no love huh on Feb 8, 2007 20:16:18 GMT -5
does this mean you don't love bert? ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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